The truth of the matter is you are not qualified to be able to decide on the nuclear foreign policy of your country.

事情的真相是，你沒有資格能夠決定你們國家的核外交政策。

Let the smart people do it.

讓聰明人去做吧。

I may not be, but I can choose someone who will be and I certainly know who is it, is it Boris johnson, It may not be, but it's certainly not you Hi, welcome to Nasa debate today, we will talk about democracy.

我可能不是，但我可以選擇一個會是的人，我當然知道是誰，是鮑里斯-約翰遜嗎，可能不是，但肯定不是你 嗨，歡迎今天來到Nasa辯論，我們將討論民主。

What type of government works best?

什麼類型的政府最有效？

Is it a democratic government or is there something better than democracy on my left debating pro democracy, I've got Alex, Wek mm hmm.

是民主政府還是有比民主更好的東西在我的左邊辯論親民主，我有亞歷克斯，魏克毫米嗯。

Hi everyone, my name is Alex and I'm gonna tell you why democracy is the best option out there to help the most people, thank you Alex and on my right I have no desire, who is voting against democracy?

大家好，我叫亞歷克斯，我要告訴你們為什麼民主是幫助大多數人的最佳選擇，謝謝你亞歷克斯，在我的右邊我沒有慾望，誰在投票反對民主？

Hello, everybody today, I would like to argue for the unpopular and I would like to say that democracy is not the best form of government today.

大家好，今天我想為不受歡迎的人辯解，我想說民主不是今天最好的政府形式。

Before we start, let me explain to you how this debate is going to work.

在我們開始之前，讓我向你們解釋一下這場辯論是如何進行的。

Our lovely audience has voted pro or against democracy at the moment it is 66% pro democracy.

我們可愛的觀眾已經投票支持或反對民主，目前是66%支持民主。

But at the end of the debate they will vote again and let's see who is more convincing, will it be Alex or will it be desire?

但在辯論結束後，他們將再次投票，讓我們看看誰更有說服力，是亞歷克斯還是慾望？

Now, let the debate begin Alex, I have a question for you, do you think my t shirt is pretty, Some people say yes, some people say my t shirt is ugly now, imagine if everybody in the world was forced to wear my T shirt that would be terrible, People have different tastes, we all agree the diversity of thought and diversity of governance is important, but for some reason when it comes to democracy, the West, which is where you come from, thinks that it's one size fits all, this is why we need a better form of democracy for more people around the world.

現在，讓辯論開始吧，亞歷克斯，我有一個問題要問你，你認為我的T恤衫漂亮嗎？有些人說是的，有些人說我的T恤衫現在很醜，想象一下，如果世界上每個人都被迫穿我的T恤衫，那就太可怕了，人們有不同的品味，我們都同意思想的多樣性和治理的多樣性很重要，但由於某些原因，在談到民主時，西方，也就是你來自的地方，認為它是一個尺寸適合所有人，這就是為什麼我們需要一個更好的民主形式，讓世界上更多人参與。

So no sire is easy to say that me, myself is from the United Kingdom and we have democracy, but actually my family came from outside the West all the way to the West to take part in democracy because they realize like many, many other people listening that democracy has so many good things about it that democracy provides safety, it provides comfort and it provides you with choice, that is why democracy has shown over time, that is the best form of government out there.

是以，說我，我自己來自英國，我們有民主，並不容易，但實際上我的家人從西方以外的地方一路來到西方，參加民主，因為他們像許多其他聽眾一樣，意識到民主有許多好處，民主提供安全，它提供舒適，它為你提供選擇，這就是為什麼民主隨著時間的推移顯示，這是最好的政府形式。

Great, great point Alex, you said democracy provides you with safety.

很好，偉大的觀點，亞歷克斯，你說民主為你提供了安全。

Senegal has democracy, kenya has democracy.

塞內加爾有民主，肯亞有民主。

The south side of Chicago in America has has democracy.

美國芝加哥的南部地區擁有民主。

In fact it is the most democratic government in the world yet there is no safety in the south side of Chicago, there is no safety at compton, there's no safety in some parts in the slums in kenya.

事實上，它是世界上最民主的政府，但在芝加哥南部沒有安全，在康普頓沒有安全，在肯亞的貧民窟的一些地方也沒有安全。

So the, the idea that democracy provides you with safety and opportunity and only democracy does that is wrong.

所以，那種認為民主為你提供安全和機會，只有民主才能做到的想法是錯誤的。

So safety is not just about security on the streets.

是以，安全不僅僅是指街道上的安全。

Safety also is the ability to choose your leader and decide who makes the laws and who decides the direction of the country, right?

安全也是選擇你的領導人，決定誰制定法律，誰決定國家的方向的能力，對嗎？

Some people say, oh it's the person with the PhD, but that doesn't mean they're going to make good decisions.

有些人說，哦，這是有博士學位的人，但這並不意味著他們會做出好的決定。

And at the end of the day it's subjective, right, Who is right, who is wrong?

而在一天結束時，它是主觀的，對嗎？誰是正確的，誰是錯誤的？

So if it's subjective, I want to be able to have a say in who may make the best decision and that is something that democracy provides, that others do not.

是以，如果它是主觀的，我希望能夠對誰可能做出最好的決定有發言權，而這是民主所提供的東西，是其他國家所沒有的。

And this is exactly why I have a problem with democracy Alex, you work in a corporation in the big big decisions at Nasa Academy.

而這正是我對民主有意見的原因，亞歷克斯，你在一個公司工作，在Nasa學院的重大決策中。

Do you let the software engineer take the decisions?

你讓軟件工程師來做決定嗎？

Do you let the designers take the decisions or do you as chief business officer take the decisions for others.

你是讓設計師做決定，還是你作為首席商務官為別人做決定。

The idea of democracy is that one vote equals one say is flawed because even if everybody deserves a voice, not every voice is equal in value.

民主的理念是一票等於一個發言權，這是有缺陷的，因為即使每個人都應該有發言權，但不是每個聲音都有同等價值。

So there's a big difference between a corporation and a country.

是以，公司和國家之間有很大的區別。

When I worked at a company, I have the choice to leave the company, but in the world today, if I live in a country, I don't always have a choice to leave that country.

當我在一家公司工作時，我可以選擇離開公司，但在今天的世界上，如果我住在一個國家，我並不總是可以選擇離開這個國家。

My passport may not allow me, I may be stuck there and so I want to be able to have a say over my leaders and the leader.

我的護照可能不允許我這樣做，我可能會被困在那裡，所以我希望能夠對我的上司和上司有發言權。

If it's not me, then it's going to be subjective who is the right person to decide who my leader is?

如果不是我，那麼就會是主觀的，誰是決定我的上司的合適人選？

Well, I think I'm the best Not you or not anyone else.

好吧，我想我是最好的 不是你也不是別人。

Do you think a uneducated person on the street should have a say of the nuclear policy of the United States or the UK?

你認為街上一個沒有受過教育的人應該對美國或英國的核政策有發言權嗎？

I don't think they should have a say.

我認為他們不應該有發言權。

History has shown that in other countries where there isn't democracy, the person who to rules the country doesn't know more about nuclear policies.

歷史表明，在其他沒有民主的國家，統治國家的人對核政策並不瞭解。

There is no evidence that has shown that that person is better in a better position to make a decision.

沒有證據表明那個人更有能力做出決定。

I'm glad you bring that.

我很高興你能帶來這一點。

I'm glad you bring that point because you're implying that democracy works Yet.

我很高興你提出這一點，因為你在暗示民主是可行的，然而。

We've exported democracy to 30 countries around the world, Kenya, Senegal Pakistan Bangladesh, are they richer?

我們已經向全世界30個國家輸出了民主，肯亞、塞內加爾巴基斯坦孟加拉國，他們更富有嗎？

Are they Sweden right now?

他們現在是瑞典嗎？

Has democracy truly lifted the citizens that are watching right now or has it only generated conflict over conflict over conflict?

民主是否真正提升了現在正在觀看的公民，或者它只是產生了衝突又衝突？

Not everybody can live by the standards of your country.

不是每個人都能按照你們國家的標準生活。

Not every democracy is perfect.

不是每個民主國家都是完美的。

But the beauty of democracy is that every four or five years we can change the leader in every country you mentioned, we have the ability to choose a different leader if it's not working out in in a situation a country that doesn't have democracy, we are stuck and by the way, there are many countries that don't have democracy that are just as badly run as countries with democracies that don't quite work.

但民主的好處是，每隔四五年我們就可以更換你提到的每個國家的領導人，我們有能力選擇一個不同的領導人，如果在一個沒有民主的國家，我們就被困住了，順便說一下，有許多沒有民主的國家和有民主制度的國家一樣，經營得很糟糕，不大奏效。

great.

偉大的。

You mentioned the beautiful thing about democracy is that it changes leaders every four years.

你提到民主的美麗之處在於它每四年更換一次領導人。

That's actually the terrible thing about democracy.

這其實就是民主的可怕之處。

The biggest problems in your country, the sewer system in your country, the infrastructure in your country, the nuclear arsenal, the army in your country needs more than four years to fix, it needs 10 years to fix 15 years to fix what's happening in America or in democratic countries every four years there's a zigzag, there's a new policy heck you work at a startup to build a small startup.

你們國家最大的問題，你們國家的下水道系統，你們國家的基礎設施，你們國家的核武庫，軍隊需要四年以上的時間來解決，需要10年的時間來解決15年的時間來解決美國或民主國家每四年有一個人字形的問題，有一個新的政策他你在創業公司工作，建立一個小創業公司。

You need five years.

你需要五年時間。

So that's what's great about democracy that have been over time is that they've established ways To have elected leaders change every four years but have a system under it that lasts much longer.

所以這就是民主制度的偉大之處，隨著時間的推移，他們已經建立了一些方法，讓當選的領導人每四年更換一次，但其下有一個持續時間更長的系統。

So the people in a good democracy, what you have is you have a civil service people who run the day to day of fixing the sewer or fixing the roads and then the overarching policies are decided by the people who change.

是以，在一個良好的民主制度下，你所擁有的是一個公務員隊伍，他們負責日常的修理下水道或修理道路的工作，然後總體政策是由改變的人決定。

So that means you can have both.

是以，這意味著你可以同時擁有。

You can have your cake and eat it as well.

你可以擁有你的蛋糕，也可以吃它。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

So what he, what he is saying that democracy works because we infuse a little bit of dictatorship in it.

所以他，他說的是，民主之所以有效，是因為我們在其中注入了一點獨裁的成分。

That's all you're saying because some part of the government does not change and people cannot vote to you're saying.

這就是你所說的，因為政府的某些部分沒有改變，人們不能投票給你說。

That's good, all I'm saying is let's make that the whole government.

這很好，我想說的是，讓我們把它變成整個政府。

Let's make the smartest 2000 people in the country Choose the direction of the country.

讓我們讓全國最聰明的2000人選擇國家的方向。

Democracy only works when the population is sufficiently educated and that's not the case in 90% of them.

民主只有在民眾受到充分教育的情況下才能發揮作用，而90%的民主都不是這樣的。

So sorry, this is where you're wrong, you think or the way you're talking is that there's only one way for a country to move forward and that's only decided by the smartest people.

所以對不起，這就是你錯的地方，你認為或者說你說話的方式是，一個國家只有一條路可以走，而這隻能由最聰明的人決定。

But in reality, the way the country moves away, a country moves forward is a choice.

但在現實中，國家的移動方式，一個國家的移動方式是一種選擇。

If the decision is going to be wrong, if there's gonna be mistakes made along the way, I would much rather have a role to play in those decisions than to let someone make mistakes without me having any say, no country has a binary choice.

如果決定會是錯誤的，如果一路上會有錯誤，我更願意在這些決定中發揮作用，而不是讓別人犯錯而我沒有任何發言權，沒有一個國家有二元選擇。

It's not, this road is better.

不是的，這條路更好。

This road is worse.

這條路更糟糕。

It's a zigzag.

這是個 "之 "字形。

And you learn along the way, I want to play a role in my country, zigzag.

而且你一路上都在學習，我想在我的國家發揮作用，人字形。

Well actually Alex, there are some roads that are wrong.

嗯，實際上亞歷克斯，有一些道路是錯誤的。

Democracy, elected.

民主，當選。

Hitler.

希特勒。

Hitler came from democracy.

希特勒來自於民主。

Was that a zigzag?

那是 "之 "字形嗎？

Did we zigzag out of it?

我們是否以 "之 "字形脫離了它？

Yeah.

是的。

Through World War Two and 50 million deaths.

通過第二次世界大戰和五千萬人的死亡。

So who do we blame World War Two on the rise of Hitler?

那麼，我們把第二次世界大戰歸咎於希特勒的崛起是誰呢？

And what do we blame the rise of Hitler on the democratic government which enabled populism to exist.

而我們把希特勒的崛起歸咎於使民粹主義得以存在的民主政府，這又是什麼呢？

So in the case of World War Two, that was a very low point for democracy, but let's be clear, Democracy did not cause World War Two.

是以，就第二次世界大戰而言，那是民主的一個非常低點，但我們要清楚，民主並沒有導致第二次世界大戰。

What happened was is that the elected leader changed the system Germany did not become democratically elected leader Germany did not become a democracy anymore.

發生的情況是，當選的領導人改變了制度，德國沒有成為民主選舉的領導人，德國沒有再成為民主國家。

That was the problem.

這就是問題所在。

And that's down to do.

而這是下來做的。

That's to do with the institutions around the democracy correct.

這與民主周圍的機構有關，是正確的。

But in a functioning government where there's smart people that are able to make the decisions they would say no to Hitler they would say no to trump because the average person could tell that there's something wrong with this leader.

但在一個正常運作的政府裡，有聰明人能夠做出決定，他們會對希特勒說不，他們會對特朗普說不，因為普通人可以看出這個領導人有問題。

We should not allow them to manipulate the rest of the population.

我們不應允許他們操縱其他人群。

This is why democracy is dangerous.

這就是為什麼民主是危險的。

Every leader comes and promises you a business seat in their plane but they don't know how to fly a plane.

每個領導人都來向你承諾在他們的飛機上有一個商務座位，但他們不知道如何駕駛飛機。

But hang on a second let's take that same period of time in the 20th century.

但等一下，讓我們以20世紀的同一時期為例。

Not only do we have Hitler with democracy but we had Stalin and Stalin was not a democracy and that led to millions of deaths.

我們不僅有希特勒的民主，而且有斯大林，斯大林不是民主，這導致了數百萬人的死亡。

So it's all very well saying that democracy gives you death.

所以說，民主給你帶來死亡，這很好。

But actually the alternatives give you death as well.

但實際上，替代品也會給你帶來死亡。

Yes.

是的。

Yes that's correct.

是的，這是正確的。

That's correct.

這是正確的。

Now that we are both on the same page.

現在我們都在同一條船上了。

Let us actually have some progress.

讓我們真正有一些進展。

All I'm saying is that guys the rest of the world let me tell you something that the U.

我想說的是，夥計們，讓我告訴你們一件事，美國的其他國家。

K.

K.

And the british parliament will never tell you there is a better form of governance that we can explore together.

而英國議會永遠不會告訴你有一個更好的治理形式，我們可以一起探索。

And it's not dictatorship.

而且這不是獨裁統治。

We don't like dictatorship.

我們不喜歡獨裁統治。

You don't like dictatorship, but not the whole world wants to live by the ideals of one country.

你不喜歡獨裁，但不是整個世界都想按一個國家的理想生活。

So I think, let's be clear, democracy is not just something from one country over periods of time, many, many countries have adopted democracy and adopted the idea of democracy, which is that people have a say, there can be many different forms of people having a say.

所以我認為，我們要清楚，民主不僅僅是一個國家在一段時間內的東西，很多很多國家都採用了民主，採用了民主的理念，也就是人們有發言權，可以有很多不同的形式讓人們有發言權。

But at the end of the day, democracy allows you to have a say in some form, great idea But flawed execution.

但在一天結束時，民主允許你以某種形式擁有發言權，偉大的想法但有缺陷的執行。

Democracy came from 8th Athens Athens is that Britain, by the way?

民主來自於第八屆雅典，順便問一下，雅典是英國嗎？

No, that's that Britain, that's grease and you know, who actually participated in the democracy, only the top 1% of the Greeks was actually rich enough to talk about democracy and introduce democracy to the world.

不，那是那個英國，那是貪婪，你知道，誰真正參與了民主，只有希臘人中最頂尖的1%的人實際上足夠富有，可以談論民主並將民主介紹給世界。

So actually the average greek citizen was not part of the democracy and that's where it came from.

所以實際上普通希臘公民並不是民主的一部分，這就是民主的來源。

So are you in favor of that form of government?

那麼你是否贊成這種政府形式？

That's all I'm saying.

這就是我要說的。

Can we explore that form of governance in which there is democracy, but only at the top, let's take ancient Greece.

我們能否探討那種有民主，但只在高層的治理形式，我們以古希臘為例。

Ancient Greece had the perfect system, Sira is ancient Greece alive today noted that system works so well, we'll look, it didn't work because ancient Greece is no longer around, but the democracy that I talked about that everyone gets a vote.

古希臘有一個完美的系統，西拉是古希臘活到今天的人注意到那個系統工作得非常好，我們會看，它沒有工作，因為古希臘已經不存在了，但是我談到的民主，每個人都有投票權。

It's still around today is the third Reich around, It's the third Reich around, it had a democracy in 1920 or whatever, that also failed countries come and go, that's the reality of it.

它今天還在是第三帝國的周圍，它是第三帝國的周圍，它在1920年或什麼時候有一個民主，那也是失敗的國家來來去去，這就是它的現實。

If we don't have a democracy in the way that I describe, who should run countries, the queen, your queen, So the way it could potentially work, there are different forms of governance called technocracy, a pest ocracy, whatever it is.

如果我們沒有我所描述的民主方式，誰應該管理國家，女王，你的女王，所以它有可能工作的方式，有不同的治理形式，稱為技術民主，一個害群之馬，無論它是。

What if at the point in which you are about to vote, we ask you, we'll give you a simple test.

如果在你即將投票的時候，我們問你，我們會給你一個簡單的測試。

Do you know what the constitution is?

你知道憲法是什麼嗎？

Do you know what the nuclear weapon is?

你知道核武器是什麼嗎？

Do you know where Russia is on the map?

你知道俄羅斯在地圖上的位置嗎？

If you answer these three questions correctly, You get to vote.

如果你能正確回答這三個問題，你就可以投票。

How about that?

那又如何呢？

It's a modified democracy, Sony Sarah, I love that you're thinking in such an idealistic way, but let's just talk about the reality.

這是一個修改過的民主制度，索尼-薩拉，我喜歡你用這種理想主義的方式思考問題，但我們還是談談現實吧。

The reality is you decide that some people are smarter than others.

現實是你決定有些人比其他人更聰明。

If you think that technocrats are the people who should run the country, then you're basically saying that 50, of people who don't have access to that education don't have access or the money to do these things do not have a right to participate in that country.

如果你認為技術官僚是應該管理國家的人，那麼你基本上是在說，50個沒有機會接受這種教育的人，沒有機會或沒有錢做這些事情的人，沒有權利參與這個國家。

So you're being elitist, you're saying that that running a country is reserved only for people who have access to money and I don't believe in that.

所以你是在搞精英主義，你說管理一個國家只保留給那些有錢的人，我不相信這一點。

And I think many people here don't believe in that.

而我認為這裡的許多人不相信這一點。

Great.

很好。

So Alex let us live your ideals.

所以亞歷克斯讓我們實現你的理想。

Do you let everybody in the company decide on the company.

你是否讓公司裡的每個人都決定公司的情況。

You don't you don't believe that the collective power is actually smart enough to run the company you're running.

你不你不相信，集體的力量實際上足夠聰明，可以管理你所經營的公司。

You don't believe that.

你不相信。

So why do you agree with that for the country?

那麼，你為什麼同意為國家做這件事？

A country and a company is the same.

一個國家和一個公司是一樣的。

In fact the number one reason why everybody here is rich or well off is because companies generated the value because they are run very effectively.

事實上，這裡的每個人都很富有或富裕的首要原因是公司產生了價值，因為它們的經營非常有效。

The way companies are run is more effective than the way governments and the way you want governments to run.

公司的運行方式比政府和你希望政府運行的方式更有效。

I'm not saying in a democracy that everyone votes on every decision, a good democracy elects the leader who then appoints the people to make those decisions.

我不是說在民主制度下，每個人都對每個決定進行投票，一個好的民主制度會選出領導人，然後由領導人任命人員來做這些決定。

So if I'm a farmer, I can vote for the person who I think can pick the right person to do foreign policy, it doesn't necessarily need to be the farmer.

是以，如果我是一個農民，我可以把票投給我認為可以挑選合適的人做外交政策的人，不一定需要是農民。

And if we look at marginalized groups, right.

而如果我們看一下被邊緣化的群體，對。

Well the beauty of democracy is that it gives a seat at the table.

嗯，民主的好處是，它給了人們一個席位。

So it's not about making every decision, but it makes sure that minority voices are heard and taken into account decisions.

是以，它不是要做每一個決定，但它確保少數人的聲音被聽到並被考慮到決定中。

This sounds great on paper but in execution is different on paper we can all agree on everything.

這在紙面上聽起來很好，但在執行上是不同的，在紙面上我們都可以同意一切。

But if we look at the data in India, if you run under the name Gandhi, the last family named Gandhi, you still get tens of millions of votes.

但是，如果我們看一下印度的數據，如果你以甘地這個名字參選，最後一個叫甘地的家族，你仍然會得到數千萬的選票。

People in reality vote based on name.

現實中人們是根據名字來投票的。

They vote based on feelings they vote based on lack of information.

他們的投票是基於感覺，他們的投票是基於缺乏資訊。

The truth of the matter is I would love a farmer to participate but the farmer has not done their homework to be able to participate in this fire.

事情的真相是，我很想讓農民參與進來，但農民並沒有做足功課，無法參與這場火災。

This is why I love democracy because with donald trump americans got to have a vote four years later and look, donald trump is no longer in power.

這就是為什麼我喜歡民主，因為有了唐納德-特朗普，美國人在四年後有了投票權，看，唐納德-特朗普已經不再執政了。

So the democracy allows you to to have checks and balances to combat decisions that may not be the best for the country.

是以，民主允許你有制衡，以打擊那些可能不是對國家最好的決定。

Does democracy allow the UK to rejoin the european union?

民主是否允許英國重新加入歐盟？

I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.

我不認為這很快就會發生。

Some decisions that are taken by democracy are catastrophic and they lead to death real serious death.

一些由民主作出的決定是災難性的，它們導致了死亡，真正的嚴重死亡。

We don't want the crowd and the majority to control the world.

我們不希望人群和多數人控制世界。

If you talk about minority rights, what is the minority rights?