to getting authentic Greek phyllo pastry incredibly thin.

要把正宗的希臘菲洛餅弄得非常薄。

But this is only one of the challenges of making phyllo.

但這只是製作菲洛的挑戰之一。

"Phyllo" means "leaf" in Greek.

"Phyllo "在希臘語中意為 "葉子"。

And, well, the name couldn't be more accurate.

而且，這個名字再準確不過了。

These thin layers are achieved

這些薄層的實現是

by a very complex lamination that involves

通過一個非常複雜的層壓，包括

not only a fat, like butter or margarine, but also oil.

不僅是一種脂肪，如黃油或人造黃油，而且還有油。

The oil gives extra slip and makes the pastry

油會帶來額外的滑度，並使麵餅變得更加光滑。

incredibly difficult to stretch.

令人難以置信地難以伸展。

So difficult that most bakers

如此困難，以至於大多數麵包師

have given up making phyllo by hand.

已經放棄了用手製作菲洛餅。

We're in Thessaloniki, and we're about

我們在塞薩洛尼基，我們大約在

to meet with Philippos Bandis.

與Philippos Bandis會面。

He's one of only a few artisans left

他是僅存的幾個工匠之一

still making phyllo by hand.

仍在用手製作皮爾洛餅。

This is his shop. Let's walk in.

這是他的商店。讓我們走進去。

Philippos makes his phyllo using water,

菲利波斯用水來製作他的菲利波。

a soft semolina flour with strong gluten,

一種具有強烈麵筋的柔軟精粉。

salt, vegetable oil, and margarine.

鹽、植物油和人造黃油。

Philippos: To make our phyllo more

菲利波斯。為了使我們的菲利蒲更

crunchy and light to the taste.

酥脆，口味清淡。

Claudia: To be strong enough

克勞迪婭：要足夠強大

to be tossed in the air,

被拋在空中。

the dough needs to be mixed for 20 minutes

麵糰需要攪拌20分鐘

and then be mixed again with more oil and margarine.

然後再與更多的油和人造黃油混合。

So how is this dough different from other types of dough

那麼，這種麵糰與其他類型的麵糰有什麼不同呢？

that have a lot of layers, like,

有很多層次的，比如。

for example, croissants or other pastries?

例如，羊角麵包或其他糕點？

Philippos: You cannot say that they

菲利波斯。你不能說他們

have something in common.

有一些共同點。

It's completely different. Claudia: Okay. [laughs]

這是完全不同的。克勞迪婭：好的。[笑]

Philippos: Because we don't make

菲利波斯。因為我們不做

layers of butter, dough, butter, dough.

黃油、麵糰、黃油、麵糰，層層疊疊。

The layers are from the folding.

層次是來自於摺頁。

Claudia: Yeah.

克勞迪婭：是的。

Philippos: But we make here.

菲利波斯。但我們在這裡做。

Claudia: You can smell a little bit

克勞迪婭：你可以聞到一點兒

the oil and the margarine.

油和人造黃油。

[upbeat music]

[歡快的音樂]

After mixing, the dough rests

攪拌後，麵糰靜置

for another 20 minutes on the counter.

在櫃檯上再放20分鐘。

Here, Philippos is cutting it in small pieces

這裡，菲利波斯正在把它切成小塊

of 250 grams each that will then be rolled into a bowl.

每個250克，然後將其捲成一個碗。

Philippos: Like a perfect --

菲利波斯。像一個完美的 --

Claudia: -- perfect bowl.

克勞迪婭： --完美的碗。

Philippos: We leave them to rest,

菲利波斯。我們讓他們休息。

again for 20 minutes, with our oil on it.

再過20分鐘，上面有我們的油。

It will make a crust over there

它在那裡會形成一個結皮

if we don't put the oil, and we don't want that.

如果我們不放油，而我們不希望這樣。

Claudia: After the 20 minutes' rest,

克勞迪婭：經過20分鐘的休息。

Philippos uses his palms

菲利波斯用他的手掌

to press the dough, and not his fingers,

他說："我們要把麵糰按下去，而不是用手指。

as they would create unwanted holes.

因為它們會產生不必要的漏洞。

Then, guess what? We have to wait another 20 minutes.

然後，你猜怎麼著？我們必須再等20分鐘。

It may sound like a lot of breaks,

這聽起來可能是一個很大的突破。

but this method is actually speeding things up.

但這種方法實際上是在加速事情的進展。

If the dough was kept as a whole,

如果將麵糰作為一個整體保存。

it would need much longer periods of rest.

它將需要更長的休息時間。

Philippos: Now, margarine inside.

菲利波斯。現在，人造黃油在裡面。

Claudia: Ooh. Philippos: Everywhere, okay?

克勞迪婭: 哦。Philippos:到處都是，好嗎？

We put them together, okay?

我們把它們放在一起，好嗎？

This will help us make the lamination, the layers.

這將有助於我們進行層壓，層壓。

Claudia: Mm-hmm.

克勞迪婭：嗯，嗯。

Philippos: This will separate the dough.

菲利波斯。這將使麵糰分離。

Claudia: Yeah, the dough.

克勞迪婭：是的，麵糰。

Philippos: The dough.

菲利波斯。麵糰。

Claudia: We wait 20 minutes again, and then

克勞迪婭：我們再等20分鐘，然後

the dough is ready to be tossed in the air.

麵糰準備好了，可以在空氣中拋灑。

[upbeat music]

[歡快的音樂]

Philippos: Can you go a step back?

菲利波斯。你能退一步嗎？

Thank you very much. Claudia: Okay.

非常感謝你。克勞迪婭：好的。

[upbeat music]

[歡快的音樂]

[dough slapping]

[拍打麵糰]

Claudia: Despite its theatricality,

克勞迪婭：儘管它具有戲劇性。

this technique is not for show.

這種技術不是用來表演的。

It's used to evenly spread the fat in the dough

它用於在麵糰中均勻地分散脂肪

and to avoid any lumps.

並避免任何結塊。

And, again, it's a faster and more effective way

而且，這也是一種更快、更有效的方式

than any rolling pin could possibly be.

比任何擀麵杖都更有可能。

So, should I give it a try? Tossing out phyllo in the air

那麼，我是否應該試一試？在空氣中拋出菲利蒲

reminded me a bit of tossing pizza dough.

這讓我想起了折騰披薩麵糰的情景。

It made me feel a little bit closer to home,

這讓我覺得離家更近了一點。

although I have a feeling

雖然我有一種感覺

that it won't be very useful today.

它在今天不會很有用。

Philippos: One hand like that. Claudia: Yeah.

菲利波斯。像這樣的一隻手。克勞迪婭：是的。

Philippos: Okay...

Philippos:好的...

And the other hand like that, here.

而另一隻手像這樣，在這裡。

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

Claudia: Like that? Philippos: Yeah.

克勞迪婭: 像這樣嗎？菲利波斯。是的。

Claudia: Okay.

克勞迪婭：好的。

Philippos: Now, there and there.

菲利波斯。現在，那裡和那裡。

Claudia: Whew, like that?

克勞迪婭：呼，像這樣嗎？

Philippos: Here, no, no, no. Claudia: No, no, no.

菲利波斯。這裡，不，不，不。克勞迪婭：不，不，不。

Philippos: This side stays up, okay?

Philippos。這一邊保持向上，好嗎？

Philippos: We will not... Claudia: Ah, okay, I see.

菲利波斯。我們不會...克勞迪婭: 啊，好的，我明白了。

Yeah. Philippos: Yeah. Like that.

是的。菲利波斯。是的。就像這樣。

The finger here. Claudia: The finger here?

這裡的手指。克勞迪婭：這裡的手指？

So you don't want to flip it. Philippos: No, no, no.

所以你不想翻轉它。菲利波斯。不，不，不。

Claudia: It's really to give it a little bit of air.

克勞迪婭：這真的是為了讓它有一點兒空氣。

Philippos: A little bit -- and that.

菲利波斯。有一點 -- 和那個。

[upbeat music]

[歡快的音樂]

Philippos: Good. Very, very good. Bravo.

菲利波斯。很好。非常，非常好。好極了。

Claudia: Why is it that it doesn't break?

克勞迪婭：為什麼它不破裂？

Philippos: Because all this preparation

菲利波斯。因為所有這些準備

we make, and the flour that, as I told you,

我們所做的，以及我告訴你的麵粉。

it's strong. We have a strong [inaudible].

它很強大。我們有一個強大的[聽不清]。

Claudia: Wow, my God, look,

克勞迪婭：哇，我的上帝，看。

you can see your hand.

你可以看到你的手。

Philippos: It's ready now.

菲利波斯。現在已經準備好了。

If you can see your hand, it's ready.

如果你能看到你的手，它就已經準備好了。

Claudia: Yeah. It feels very thin, but strong.

克勞迪婭：是的，感覺很薄，但很結實。

I don't really want to dare touching it more

我真的不敢再碰它了

because I'm really scared I'm going to break it.

因為我真的害怕我會打破它。

Philippos: You can try later. Claudia: Yeah.

菲利波斯。你可以以後再試。克勞迪婭：是的。

Is the cold also why it stays like that?

寒冷也是它保持這種狀態的原因嗎？

Philippos: Of course. We don't want the dough to be hot

菲利波斯。當然了。我們不希望麵糰變熱

because it will break it.

因為它將打破它。

Claudia: And what's the most common

克勞迪婭：那麼最常見的是什麼呢？

mistake when you do this?

當你這樣做的時候，會不會出錯？

Philippos: These edges, you need a lot

菲利波斯。這些邊緣，你需要很多

of practice and the experience to make them thin

練習和經驗，使他們瘦身

as in the center of the fold.

如在摺頁的中心。

All this phyllo must be the same everywhere.

所有這些驃騎兵在各地都必須是一樣的。

This is the most -- the more difficult part.

這是最 -- 更困難的部分。

Of course you must not have holes.

當然，你一定不會有洞。

Claudia: Okay. That's --

克勞迪婭：好的。那是 --

I think I touched there, sorry. [laughs]

我想我觸及了那裡，對不起。[笑]

Philippos: It's a problem, that,

菲利波斯。這是一個問題，這。

for many of us, the holes.

對我們中的許多人來說，就是洞。

Claudia: If you don't take into account

克勞迪婭：如果你不考慮到

my awkward tossing technique, the right technique

我笨拙的拋球技術，正確的技術

might still give you some holes.

可能還是會給你一些漏洞。

This can be because of the wrong preparation of the dough

這可能是因為麵糰的準備工作有誤

or the wrong temperature, especially in the summer months.

或錯誤的溫度，特別是在夏季。

In Greece, phyllo pastry is always paired with a pie,

在希臘，菲洛餅總是與餡餅搭配在一起。

and often the making process changes

並經常改變製作過程

depending on which pie it is.

取決於是哪種餡餅。

The one Philippos is making is specific to bougatsa,

Philippos所做的是針對bougatsa的。

a popular breakfast pie in Thessaloniki and northern Greece.

在塞薩洛尼基和希臘北部，這是一種流行的早餐餡餅。

Bougatsa phyllo is one of the most complicated to make

Bougatsa phyllo是最複雜的製作之一。

because it has to be stretched

因為它必須要被拉長

and tossed in the air as a full large sheet,

並作為一張完整的大床單拋在空中。

whereas other pies can be stretched in individual portions.

而其他的餡餅則可以單獨拉開。

Bougatsa has been around for centuries,

Bougatsa已經存在了幾個世紀。

from the times of the Byzantine Empire.

從拜占庭帝國的時代開始。

In fact, Philippos tells me that both his family

事實上，菲利波斯告訴我，他的家人都

and the pie came to modern-day Greece

和餡餅來到了現代的希臘

from Cappadocia, Turkey.

來自土耳其卡帕多奇亞。

Philippos: My grandfather came as a refugee here in 1922

菲利波斯。我的祖父是在1922年作為難民來到這裡的。

and brought all the recipes that we continue to make them.

並帶來了所有的食譜，我們繼續做這些食譜。

This is my father the year that opened this store, in 1969.

這是我父親在1969年開這家店的那一年。

This is how they used to sell bougatsa in the streets.

他們過去就是這樣在街上賣布加莎的。

This photo is in Constantinopolis, Istanbul.

這張照片是在伊斯坦布爾的康斯坦丁諾波利斯。

Claudia: The way you make phyllo is different

克勞迪婭：你製作菲洛的方式是不同的

depending on where you are in Greece.

取決於你在希臘的位置。

Philippos: Ah, yes, have some difference.

菲利波斯。啊，是的，有一些區別。

The most popular breakfast is in north Greece.

最受歡迎的早餐是在希臘北部。

This bougatsa, here in Thessaloniki,

這個bougatsa，在塞薩洛尼基這裡。

we try to make more crunch in the phyllo.

我們試圖讓菲利蒲更加鬆脆。

In Ceres, the other town, they make the phyllo more soft.

在另一個城鎮塞雷斯，他們把菲洛餅做得更軟。

Claudia: Okay.

克勞迪婭：好的。

Philippos: It's a little different.

菲利波斯。這有點不同。

Claudia: The giant phyllo sheet is cut in the middle

克勞迪婭：巨大的菲利蒲片從中間切開。

and covered with more oil and margarine.

並用更多的油和人造黃油覆蓋。

Philippos then fills it with a sweet cream

然後菲利波斯用甜美的奶油填滿它

that he and his team make in the shop.

他和他的團隊在店裡製作的。

The cream is added at room temperature.

奶油是在室溫下添加的。

Otherwise it would break the phyllo.

否則就會弄壞紙皮。

It's now time to fold the phyllo.

現在是時候摺疊菲林紙了。

Each folded side has four layers,

每個摺疊的一面有四層。

so there are 16 in this half.

所以這一半有16個。

The first folded half with the cream filling

第一個摺疊的一半是奶油餡

goes inside the unfolded half,

在展開的那一半里面。

which creates 32 layers in total for our bougatsa.

這為我們的bougatsa總共創造了32層。

Yeah, the dough looks super moist

是的，麵糰看起來超級溼潤

and humid, like a -- there is a little bit of air.

和潮溼，就像一個 -- 有一點空氣。

Philippos: We want the air inside.

菲利波斯。我們希望裡面的空氣。

It will help us to cook better inside the bougatsa.

這將有助於我們在bougatsa內更好地烹飪。

Claudia: Apart from sweet-cream bougatsa

克勞迪婭：除了甜奶油bougatsa之外

you can also enjoy it as a savory pie

你也可以把它作為一個鹹味派來享用

with local cheese, spinach, or meat.

搭配當地的奶酪、菠菜或肉類。

Philippos: The people that make bougatsa,

菲利波斯。製作bougatsa的人。

year by the year, less and less and less and less,

一年比一年少，越來越少，越來越少。

and this art will disappear.

而這種藝術將消失。

And it's a pity. It's another kind of food,

這也是一種遺憾。這是另一種食物。

the bougatsa with the machines,

攜帶機器的bougatsa。

so I want to show the young people

所以我想向年輕人展示

that it's a beautiful job and it is nicer.

這是個漂亮的工作，而且它更漂亮。

Claudia: The pie rests in the fridge for 24 hours

克勞迪婭：餡餅在冰箱中放置24小時。

so all the flavors can come together

是以，所有的味道都可以在一起

and form maximum crunch.

並形成最大限度的緊縮。

To achieve a golden crust, it cooks for 30 minutes

為了達到金黃色的表皮，要煮30分鐘

at 180 degrees Celsius.

在180攝氏度時。

[pastry crackling]

[糕餅噼啪聲]

One bougatsa makes four portions.

一個bougatsa可以做四份。

Traditionally, each portion is then cut in 10 small pieces.

傳統上，每一份都會被切成10小塊。

As the pie is traditionally eaten for breakfast,

因為傳統上派是作為早餐吃的。

in Thessaloniki bougatsa with sweet cream is often enjoyed

在塞薩洛尼基，人們通常喜歡用甜奶油做的bougatsa。

with a glass of chocolate milk.

配上一杯巧克力牛奶。

Philippos: You can see the layers from here,

菲利波斯。你可以從這裡看到這些層次。

over there, all these.

在那裡，所有這些。

Claudia: Yes, they're over here.

克勞迪婭：是的，他們在這裡。

Philippos: Yeah.

菲利波斯。是的。

Claudia: How many do we put? Thirty-two, you said?

克勞迪婭：我們放多少個？你說32個？

Philippos: Yes, 32.

菲利波斯。是的，32。

[upbeat music]

[歡快的音樂]

Philippos: It's very simple cream,

菲利波斯。這是很簡單的奶油。

but the ingredients are all first quality, you know,

但成分都是一流的，你知道。

and around Thessaloniki local.

和塞薩洛尼基當地周圍。

Claudia: Also the crunch is not a aggressive crunch.

克勞迪婭：還有，這種緊縮不是一種積極的緊縮。

It's not oily, it's light -- oh, it's very, very nice.

它不油膩，很輕 -- 哦，它非常、非常好。

Philippos: It's very good.

菲利波斯。這是非常好的。

[upbeat music]

[歡快的音樂]