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  • Welcome back, everyone.

  • Good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are.

  • I'm Derek Brower, the FT's US energy editor.

  • I'm in New York, so anybody joining me

  • on this side of the Atlantic, welcome.

  • One person who is, and I am delighted is joining us,

  • is the United States Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm

  • for the conference's last session.

  • Truly leaving the best last, I think.

  • I don't know about that.

  • Before we begin, a note of housekeeping.

  • Please, any questions that you have for Madam Secretary,

  • please send them in using the box, chat box,

  • on the right of your screen.

  • And second, if you want to tweet about this,

  • please use the hashtag #FTEnergyTran.

  • Madam Secretary, welcome.

  • Let's begin.

  • If I could I'd like to start with Europe

  • because a lot of our audience is there.

  • There's an energy crisis under way, as you know, in Europe.

  • Gas and electricity prices are at historic highs.

  • Do you blame Russia for this?

  • Well, we're certainly watching it.

  • I'll say this.

  • I just got back from Poland and met

  • with a number of the eastern and central European countries,

  • and there was a deep concern that there was withholding

  • of supplies and manipulation of the market

  • in order to demonstrate, if you will,

  • the indispensability of Russian gas as Germany

  • considers its Nord Stream 2 approvals.

  • However, I don't have information

  • to say that that is the case.

  • We are watching it very carefully.

  • Obviously, the US wants to make sure...

  • and there is a ripple effect in the United States, as well.

  • We are seeing natural gas prices shoot up also.

  • So we are undergoing a process internally

  • to the federal government just to let

  • you know to look at this issue and to make sure

  • that we're doing all we can, both here

  • and in Europe, to ensure that people

  • have the supplies they need.

  • Does that include the possibility

  • of investigating market manipulation by Gazprom

  • as the Polish government has called for?

  • Well, I know the Polish government was very concerned

  • about that as well.

  • Suffice it to say we're aware of the request.

  • We're aware of the fact that there does seem to be what...

  • well, I say a choke point and not as much supply.

  • But there are also, I understand -

  • and it's true in the United States, too -

  • this ramp-up after Covid takes a little bit more time than

  • people would like given how quickly winter is emerging.

  • And it is projected to be a bit of a colder winter.

  • So there are those issues.

  • Let me just say that we are looking at it.

  • It sounds...

  • I mean, those are fairly moderate comments.

  • It sounds like you're trying to cool some of the rhetoric.

  • Because some of your colleagues in Europe are talking about

  • this as an energy war almost.

  • We're in the grip of another energy war.

  • Do you fear that it could spiral into that?

  • I worry about that, certainly.

  • I mean, you don't want to see energy made into a weapon.

  • And the weaponisation of energy is a serious problem.

  • I'm not saying that is happening right now.

  • I am saying that we understand the concerns,

  • and that, given the enormous jack-up in prices,

  • there deserves to be special eyes on it,

  • and we are looking at it.

  • But at the moment, we don't have a conclusion on that.

  • Is there anything you think the US can do on the supply side,

  • for example, to help?

  • And I ask because the previous administration, as you know,

  • talked of freedom gas and so on helping to break Europe's

  • dependence on Russian gas.

  • Should the US, or can the US, send more gas right now?

  • Most of the cargoes that are sold in the spot market

  • seem to be bought by Asia right now,

  • and the market is sucking them in one direction

  • and not arriving in Europe.

  • Is there something more that the US

  • can do to help relieve Europe?

  • You know, again, we have an inter-agency process looking

  • at this.

  • I mean, as you know and as Europe knows, I mean,

  • we are in a position where we preside over a free market.

  • And so we don't own the means of supply

  • and we don't own the ability to direct.

  • And so the question is, what are the tools at our disposal

  • to make sure that there is supply

  • that's adequate both for Europe, as well as for the United

  • States.

  • I will say that our LNG supply at this moment

  • is almost to the cap of the existing capacity.

  • So you'd have to build out... even though new terminals are

  • authorised, they have not been built out yet.

  • It would take, obviously, some time for that

  • to happen to jack up additional supply.

  • So it's not as obvious of a solution

  • as one might otherwise think.

  • The capacity limits are almost reached.

  • Let me stay with the international mark

  • and ask about oil prices because WTI, West Texas Intermediate,

  • the US benchmark is near $80.

  • Brent is above $80.

  • Levels that some economists say will

  • start to slow the recovery, the economic recovery,

  • from the pandemic.

  • The administration has expressed its alarm

  • about gasoline prices, and President Biden

  • has talked about them.

  • Do you think Opec is doing enough?

  • Last week, they met, or earlier this week, they met.

  • And after the US asked for more supply

  • they stuck to their existing plan.

  • Is the Opec group of producers, Opec-Plus,

  • are they doing enough to cool what could be a damaging oil

  • price rally?

  • Well, I think that everybody was hoping

  • that there would be additional supply made available

  • so that prices would not be jacked up.

  • And the president, President Biden,

  • has made it clear that he wants Americans to have access

  • to affordable and reliable energy, obviously, at the pump,

  • but natural gas too.

  • The administration really is committed

  • to doing everything we can to make sure that everybody

  • is paying - that Americans are paying -

  • fair and affordable gas prices.

  • This is a similar problem, right?

  • We don't own our own gas supply or oil supply.

  • And so the market is what the market is.

  • Presidents don't control the cost of gasoline.

  • And we also are aware that we want

  • to move into a clean energy environment,

  • and that, while this transition occurs,

  • we want for people to not bear the cost of that

  • in terms of at the pump.

  • And the president, even in deciding

  • on how to pay for his big agenda in Congress,

  • he made it clear that raising gas taxes, for example,

  • is not on the table.

  • He drew a red line for that.

  • So he does not want to raise costs

  • on everyday people for anything.

  • And so, while we go through this transition,

  • he wants to incentivise the development

  • of clean technologies and clean fuel supplies

  • without having everyday citizens pay for the cost of that.

  • And the White House has said that all tools

  • - I think Jen Psaki said this earlier this week

  • - all tools are on the table in terms of trying

  • to deal with this price surge.

  • Does that include releasing oil from the Strategic Petroleum

  • Reserve, for example?

  • Yep, it's a tool, for sure.

  • And is that a possibility in the next coming weeks?

  • Well, it's a tool that's under consideration.

  • There are regularly scheduled sales already set.

  • A regularly scheduled sale set.

  • So that might provide some.

  • But again, it's very much marginal assistance

  • overall given the scope of the problems.

  • But nonetheless, that is a tool, and certainly the president

  • will consider that.

  • And possibly restricting exports.

  • Is that also on the table?

  • That's a tool that we have not used, but it is a tool as well.

  • And as I say, we have an intergovernmental process

  • that is going on.

  • And as Jen Psaki said, all tools are on the table.

  • But some are more readily available than others.

  • Let me turn to the US now and ask about...

  • we'll stick with the oil for a sec.

  • Oil and gas.

  • US producers, the shale producers, as you know,

  • say these price rises are the outcome of policies

  • from the Biden administration.

  • In particular, they cite the moratorium on leasing

  • of federal lands for fracking.

  • Do you think producers in the US should

  • be doing more to increase production

  • right now themselves?

  • Let's be clear that the moratorium was on new leases,

  • and there were a whole lot of existing leases

  • that were not even being used, that

  • were available, that are available,

  • to be able to be taken advantage of.

  • We want to see supply and demand be at a place

  • where we don't see huge increases in prices.

  • So I'll just leave it at that, and the president

  • is very concerned about that.

  • OK.

  • Let me turn to Congress.

  • The president has been adamant that his sweeping clean energy

  • agenda will go ahead.

  • These are huge plans, as we all know

  • and as we've discussed a lot in this conference.

  • And his agenda rests on Congress's approval

  • of these plans later this month, potentially,

  • or when the vote comes in the coming weeks.

  • You've been following the machinations and the debate

  • in Congress closely, of course, and are very

  • familiar with what's happening.

  • What do you think is likely...

  • not what you want to come out of this process,

  • but what do you think is likely now to emerge from Congress

  • in terms of how much of the $3.5tn reconciliation package,

  • how much of the $1.2tn bipartisan infrastructure bill,

  • how much of these packages will survive by the time Congress is

  • done with them?

  • I mean, as you're aware, the bipartisan infrastructure deal

  • will largely stay intact, I predict.

  • And I think that's pretty clear.

  • It's just a question of the size of the Build Back Better,

  • the second piece, the Build Back Better agenda.

  • You're aware, of course, that the president

  • spoke with members of his party over the past couple of days

  • and told them that they would have to pare down the ambition.

  • And so whether the real question is whether they pare everything

  • back, or whether they put certain categories off

  • to the side and fund others fully.

  • I know that even just as I was coming on to this call,

  • I saw Senator Manchin describing what he thought

  • were his priorities.

  • And he has a pretty big say in how this is shaped.

  • So I do think that, combined, this is still

  • going to be a huge investment in our nation.

  • And from my column of the world in the Department of Energy,

  • it is going to be a huge investment in technologies,

  • and in projects, and in a grid deployment authority that

  • really takes us to the next level

  • and knocks down a lot of the barriers

  • that we have seen in the past.

  • So the issue really comes down to, quite honestly,

  • whether there will be this clean electricity performance

  • programme or some version of it that incentivises utilities

  • to do the buildout and has both incentives and penalties

  • and goals.

  • And so is it the CEPP, as we call it?

  • Or is it something that's got those elements?

  • That is part of what the last bit of negotiation is to occur.

  • I think there will be consensus around the investment in tax

  • credits to incentivise the buildout of clean energy.

  • We have been eager to incentivise

  • all kinds of clean energy.

  • - clean broadly defined.

  • That includes, obviously, wind and solar and renewables,

  • but it also includes decarbonisation

  • of fossil fuels.

  • It would include nuclear.

  • So we are...

  • I continue to say, this is about silver buckshot, not

  • a silver bullet.

  • To incentivise all of those in the way that this bill does,

  • I think, will be enormous for America

  • and enormous for the movement forward of these technologies.

  • And most importantly, from the president's perspective,

  • is jobs in this overall sector.

  • It's not just one industry.

  • It is a sector that includes a whole slew of industries

  • that provides jobs for people.

  • I'll come to jobs in a sec.

  • Let me just, if I may, ask a couple of follow-ups.

  • So does the silver buckshot, does

  • that include natural gas in the CEPP?

  • Because it seems that that may be a sticking

  • point for Senator Manchin.

  • If the CEPP can include natural gas

  • - broadly defined, if natural gas can

  • be included in a clean energy package - he may approve it.

  • Would you be happy for natural gas to be in the CEPP?

  • Natural gas with carbon capture technology, yes.

  • I will say that Senator Manchin has

  • been a huge advocate, as have a number of decarbonisation

  • technologies, like carbon capture and sequestration.

  • And so presumably, then, if natural gas with carbon capture

  • could be in it, coal with carbon capture could also be in it?

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, part of the...

  • decarbonisation is decarbonisation.

  • And so the question for coal has been, does it pencil out?

  • But the CEPP provides the means to build out that technology.

  • And that's what it funds.

  • It doesn't fund shareholder profits.

  • It funds the buildout of these technologies.

  • And we want to take these technologies to scale.

  • It's not just the US that is looking

  • at these decarbonisation strategies.

  • We want to prove it out.

  • Part of the infrastructure bill that was passed

  • includes carbon capture and clean hydrogen hubs,

  • demonstration hubs.

  • So we want to take it to scale so

  • that we can reduce the cost of it,

  • so that it can be one of the pieces of buckshot

  • that's in our goal of clean, dispatchable baseload power.

  • Right.

  • And just to be clear, so a new natural gas-fired power station

  • with CCS could be part of the utilities...

  • Could be.

  • ...programme. Could be.

  • OK.

  • Let me ask about jobs because I know, as you said,

  • this is very dear to the administration

  • and President Biden's agenda for clean energy.

  • Nonetheless, the pushback from some people

  • in the traditional fossil fuel jobs

  • is that clean energy jobs are less reliable, less long term,

  • lower pay.

  • Frankly, they come with higher risks, and some of the skills

  • aren't necessarily transferable in the way

  • that some people claim.

  • How important do you think it is, first of all,

  • for these communities in fossil fuel areas of Wyoming

  • and non-Democrat voting areas of the country,

  • frankly, to be brought alongside,

  • or be brought in, along while you push this energy

  • transition?

  • Or do you just think that some of these

  • will essentially be casualties of a necessary shift?

  • Yeah, this is a great question, and hear me loud and clear.

  • The president doesn't want to leave anyone behind.

  • And he feels very strongly that these communities in particular

  • - he has a whole Justice 40 initiative.

  • And that Justice 40 initiative and the focus on coal and power

  • plant communities, and the focus on communities

  • that have been left behind because they have perhaps

  • been located in the shadows of smokestacks

  • and have disproportionate amounts of asthma, et cetera.

  • Both types of communities, Just Transition communities

  • and Justice 40 communities, are going

  • to be part of our place-based strategy for targeted focus

  • on investments.

  • We have not really had that before.

  • I mean, other countries have.

  • Europe has.

  • But we have not really focused as much

  • as we should have on these transitioning communities.

  • I tell you, the reason why I think the president asked

  • me to be Secretary of Energy is because I

  • was governor of Michigan.

  • And we were in that situation.

  • Our main product is a product that

  • uses fossil fuels with an internal combustion engine.

  • And so we saw our industry on its knees

  • through the Great Recession.

  • And a lot of that was the Great Recession compounded

  • by the fact that we saw a lot of imports

  • that were much more fuel efficient, honestly.

  • Japanese imports, et cetera.

  • And people were expressing a preference.

  • And so we had to make a decision.

  • And this is why the president is so key on this

  • because during the Recovery Act, they funnelled money

  • to Michigan to help us diversify into areas that we knew

  • we could be competitive in.

  • Including car 2.0, which is the electric vehicle.

  • And the guts to that vehicle, which is the electric vehicle

  • battery.

  • So that experience... and now, of course,

  • Michigan is on the rebound.

  • Electric vehicles.

  • You saw all of...

  • I know you want to have a separate conversation

  • about vehicles.

  • But I just have to say this is near and dear to me.

  • And the point is that the president sees that example,

  • and sees what's happening in these coal and power plant

  • communities, and says, we can offer them

  • an ability to diversify.

  • I say this to Senator Manchin all the time.

  • West Virginia powered this country for hundreds years

  • on coal.

  • They can power our country for the next 100 years,

  • but using clean energy.

  • And we can figure out what are the technologies that

  • are consonant with the experience and the skill

  • set of the workers there.

  • So do they have expertise in subsurface?

  • Yeah, let's look at the hot spots in West

  • Virginia for geothermal.

  • Let's give people the ability to attach carbon capture

  • and sequestration technologies to existing power plants.

  • Let's make sure we have clean hydrogen hubs.

  • And that, by the way, might require the ability

  • to lay pipe underground to move carbon, et cetera.

  • So there are tonnes of skills in this clean energy world that

  • are good skills, including...

  • I mean, Senator Manchin would love

  • to put nuclear on top of coal plants,

  • like they just did in Wyoming.

  • TerraPower, founded by Bill Gates,

  • just put, or is slated to put, a small nuclear reactor

  • adjacent to a coal plant.

  • That is a huge opportunity.

  • Good paying jobs.

  • Union jobs.

  • We do not want to leave any community behind.

  • We are not going to leave any community behind.

  • And we're going to direct investments

  • into those communities.

  • OK, let me ask about cars.

  • Ford and SK Innovation recently announced this huge $11bn

  • investment plan to build assembly and battery plants

  • in Tennessee and Kentucky.

  • And there's this big EV rollout that they're planning there.

  • Do you see that region of the country...

  • is Tennessee about to become the Detroit of EVs?

  • Don't say that to me.

  • I mean, good for Tennessee, but I still...

  • I mean, I have my home team, you know?

  • But honestly, I mean, there's enough love to go around.

  • I mean, we want to see these investments

  • in batteries in the United States,

  • and the supply chain for those batteries.

  • The anode, the cathode, the separator material,

  • the electrolyte.

  • Those are all separate companies,

  • different kinds of investments.

  • We want them all in the US.

  • And that includes, by the way, responsible extraction

  • of lithium and cobalt and the materials

  • that go into those batteries.

  • And we don't do that as much in the United States.

  • Very few places.

  • We end up importing.

  • And that's true with processing those materials.

  • We don't have a single processing

  • facility in the United States.

  • It's one of the reasons why the president is focused

  • on the battery supply chain.

  • To be able to get the whole value chain

  • associated with electric vehicles in the United States.

  • And I'm sure Tennessee wants it.

  • Michigan wants it.

  • Georgia wants it.

  • They all want it.

  • And you know, good.

  • Let's compete.

  • Let me ask you a question about infrastructure,

  • and energy infrastructure in particular.

  • There is obviously a huge focus from the administration

  • on infrastructure, full stop, period.

  • But the energy infrastructure seems

  • to be a particularly thorny matter for this energy

  • transition because, as you know, transmission lines need

  • to cross states, and some of the permitting for this

  • is difficult.

  • I spoke to an offshore wind developer

  • who talked about starting the permitting process in 2007

  • and only getting approval for it last year.

  • But the problem is not just on clean energy either.

  • Pipeline developers say that they can't get approvals.

  • And we saw the vulnerabilities when the Colonial Pipeline

  • went down earlier this year of the US energy you know consumer

  • to the vulnerabilities in the energy infrastructure

  • system in the US.

  • How can you, how does the federal government,

  • fix this problem, speed up this process,

  • that this isn't hindering the transition,

  • or even hindering energy security?

  • Yeah, this is a great question.

  • I mean, the permitting for some of these projects,

  • especially on the transmission side, it is just...

  • any type of infrastructure that runs across multiple states

  • is going to be onerous.

  • But there are steps that we're taking to help clear

  • the obstacles to approval.

  • I hear more about it on the transmission side.

  • For one thing, here's an example.

  • The Department of Energy already has

  • authority over public highways and other rights of way.

  • Public lands where we can site and permit

  • new transmission lines quickly.

  • And so if we can use those existing rights of way

  • and create and just put them up in easements, that's fantastic.

  • Earlier in the year, I know the Department of Transportation

  • issued new guidelines on how to leverage these rights of way,

  • public rights of way, for high-priority transmission

  • projects.

  • And, by the way, to serve as a model for private partners,

  • like railroads, to do the same.

  • And part of that infrastructure, as well,

  • is building out the infrastructure

  • for electric vehicles.

  • And so you can imagine a combination

  • of perhaps transmission, EV buildouts,

  • along public rights of way, which

  • lessens the resistance, of course,

  • since it is on public land.

  • Congress clearly wants us to address these bottlenecks, too.

  • And so that bipartisan infrastructure deal

  • includes a new grid deployment authority,

  • which would let us at DOE designate corridors

  • of national interests along those existing rights

  • away, allowing for quicker construction.

  • And would allow DOE to take a position on a proposed

  • transmission line because, as you know,

  • transmission lines are not built on spec usually.

  • We have to have offtake.

  • And if we see it as an important one

  • that we would take a position, potentially,

  • to do that offtake so that they can then afford the buildout

  • and surety that they will be able to have that offtake.

  • DOE and the FERC, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,

  • we both have roles in getting projects permitted.

  • And we meet every other week to make sure that we are in sync

  • and aligned to be able to move faster.

  • And then on the oil and gas side,

  • obviously, we need to invest in infrastructure

  • that's going to help us build our clean energy economy.

  • And while we still...

  • we obviously will also have pipelines into the future.

  • We want to make sure those pipelines are

  • leak free, particularly natural gas

  • pipelines as we're concerned about methane emissions.

  • And there will be more on that as you're probably aware.

  • But that's over in the EPA side of things.

  • We also, though, want to continue

  • to build out the infrastructure for the clean side

  • and emphasise that as well.

  • And I see that I'm bumping up against time.

  • I'm so sorry about that.

  • I may have to jump off at this moment.

  • Thank you.

  • But I really appreciate the chance to have a conversation.

  • Thanks for the smart questions.

  • Madam Secretary, thank you very much.

  • You bet.

  • That is it from the FT Live Energy Transition Summit.

  • It's been a provocative two days, I think.

  • The consensus from my panels and the ones I listened to

  • was that transition, energy transition,

  • to a cleaner energy future is well under way

  • and is probably irreversible.

  • The market is moving in that direction,

  • and policy now needs to follow more quickly, too,

  • to support it.

  • But there will, I think, this came up repeatedly.

  • There will be dislocations caused by this transition

  • and involved in this transition.

  • And these need to be addressed.

  • In particular, there are gaps in the technology

  • that needs to be filled.

  • That was clear from a number of panel discussions.

  • And there are fossil fuel communities that cannot be left

  • behind.

  • And we just heard the Secretary of Energy in the United States

  • talk about that.

  • These are hard questions and probably

  • need more than what Greta Thunberg describes

  • as "blah blah blah" from politicians in their bromides.

  • That's certainly not what we just heard

  • from the Secretary of Energy.

  • I was delighted with that conversation.

  • I have been intrigued to hear in a lot of the panel discussions,

  • and I think some of my other moderators at the FT

  • have felt the same way, the view that the fossil fuel supply

  • crisis that is under way now, soaring prices for fossil fuels

  • will not slow this energy transition

  • but will actually accelerate it.

  • Those are my concluding thoughts.

  • Thank you to everyone who participated.

  • Thank you to the excellent green room and backroom

  • staff who made all this happen, the planners and so on.

  • Thank you to our lead sponsors, Baker Hughes, Chevron, EY,

  • Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Group, Oliver Wyman,

  • to our associate sponsors, and Ansys, Axpo, Blackstone,

  • FuelCell Energy, Lundin Energy, National Grid, and Worley.

  • Thanks also to our supporting organisations,

  • Bioenergy Europe, International Solar Alliance, Eurelectric,

  • GasNaturally, and Commodities Trading Association.

  • Everyone who's still here, do you

  • remember you can watch these videos

  • from the conference on demand for the next 90 days

  • at energy.live.ft.com.

  • And finally, I look forward to seeing everyone

  • - I hope in person, for a change -

  • at the FT Energy Source Live US Edition in Houston

  • in early April with a date, an exact date,

  • to be confirmed soon.

  • See you there, and thank you for being here.

Welcome back, everyone.

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能源(Jennifer Granholm on the challenges of transition to cleaner energy sources I FT)

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    joey joey 發佈於 2021 年 10 月 14 日
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