Mm.

嗯。

This interview is being tape recorded or in an interview room.

本次採訪正在錄音或在採訪室進行。

One Hackney police station.

一個哈克尼警察局。

The first of December.

12月1日。

This is the actual police recording of Oliver Campbell's confession.

這是警方對奧利弗-坎貝爾供詞的真實錄音。

19 minutes that changed everything.

19分鐘，改變了一切。

How long before the actual shooting that had you hired the gun come a couple of weeks old?

讓你僱了槍的實際槍擊事件多久前才來幾周？

Couple of months.

幾個月了

Mhm.

嗯

Oliver Campbell is a 19 year old with a learning disability.

奧利弗-坎貝爾是一名19歲的學習障礙者。

He's accused of shooting a London shopkeeper dead in a robbery.

他被指控在一次搶劫中槍殺了一名倫敦店主。

Gone wrong, he seems confused.

走錯了，他似乎很困惑。

Can you describe the gun to me?

你能給我描述一下這把槍嗎？

Not exactly black and I can't done it yourself.

不完全是黑，我自己也做不到。

Small one.

小的一個。

His lawyers say this confession was crucial at his trial.

他的律師說，這份供詞在他的審判中至關重要。

Convicted of murder, he spent 11 years in prison for a crime he says he didn't commit.

被判犯有謀殺罪，他說他沒有犯罪，卻在監獄裡呆了11年。

Mhm.

嗯

I was put under pressure.

我受到了壓力。

Start to say things.

開始說事。

I don't want to say it.

我不想說。

It was unfair.

這是不公平的。

Totally out.

完全沒有了。

There is abuse of the police.

有濫用警察的現象。

Can't prove this, but it's a strong suspicion that the police deliberately arranged matters so that they could conduct an interview in the absence of a solicitor.

不能證明這一點，但很懷疑警方故意安排事情，以便在沒有律師的情況下進行面談。

Yeah, it was.

是的，它是。

Then they grabbed the shopkeeper and shot him in the head.

然後，他們抓住店主，向他的頭部開槍。

He died on his way to hospital.

他在去醫院的路上去世了。

One of the government dropped.

其中政府掉。

On the 22nd of July 1992 men entered a shop in east London intent on robbery.

1992年7月22日，一些人進入倫敦東部的一家商店，意圖搶劫。

The owner, builder of handle, pressed the panic alarm.

業主，把手的建設者，按下了驚恐的警報。

One of the men pulled a gun and shot him at close range in the head.

其中一名男子拔出槍，近距離向他的頭部開槍。

Local man Oliver Campbell was a suspect.

當地男子奧利弗-坎貝爾是嫌疑人。

His distinctive cap was found near the crime scene.

他那頂與眾不同的帽子在犯罪現場附近被發現。

The man who shot the unfortunate Mr 100 dead was wearing a hat, which Oliver had bought only a week before the police when they realized that jump to the conclusion that he must have been the shooter is a simple conclusion.

射殺不幸的100先生死亡的人戴著一頂帽子，奧利弗在一週前才買了一頂帽子，當他們意識到，跳到他一定是槍手的結論是一個簡單的結論。

Oliver Campbell later said the cap had been stolen and hairs recovered inside was shown not to be his.

奧利弗-坎貝爾後來說，這頂帽子被偷了，裡面找到的毛髮顯示不是他的。

I know I didn't commit the crime trying to put other charges against Man.

我知道我沒有犯罪，想把其他罪名加在文哥身上。

I know if I was guilty, I'm not guilty of nothing.

我知道，如果我有罪，我也不會無罪。

And then they The prosecution relies on three main strands of evidence.

然後他們檢方主要依靠三方面的證據。

Apart from the confession, an eyewitness picked him out at an ID parade at the second attempt, he was friends with a man accused of the robbery, and his hat was found near the crime scene.

除了口供，在第二次未遂時，有目擊者在身份證巡遊時將其挑出，他與一名被控搶劫的男子是朋友，他的帽子也在案發現場附近被發現。

Campbell was convicted of the murder in 1991 losing an appeal Three years later.

坎貝爾在1991年被判謀殺罪，三年後上訴失敗。

In 2002, he completed his sentence.

2002年，他刑滿釋放。

He's always maintained his innocence.

他一直保持著自己的清白。

18 years ago, the BBC's rough justice program raised serious questions about the conviction.

18年前，英國廣播公司（BBC）的粗暴司法節目提出了嚴重的定罪問題。

They demonstrated there was no forensic evidence linking over Campbell to the crime scene.

他們證明了沒有法醫證據能證明Campbell和犯罪現場有聯繫。

They discovered one of the robbers had told the police Campbell was not involved.

他們發現其中一個劫匪曾告訴警察坎貝爾沒有參與。

A fact never revealed the jury.

一個事實從來沒有透露給陪審團。

It had been ruled inadmissible, and they focused on Campbell's confession, obtained without a solicitor present.

它被裁定為不可接受，他們的重點是坎貝爾在沒有律師在場的情況下獲得的供詞。

His lawyers applied to the Criminal Cases Review Commission to try to get the case.

他的律師向刑事案件複查委員會提出申請，試圖讓案件。

Referred back to the court of appeal.

移交給上訴法院。

The CCRC refused, arguing all the issues have been examined by a jury and the court of appeal.

CCRC拒絕了，認為所有的問題都已經過陪審團和上訴法院的審查。

I think they saw a lot of the individual trees.

我想他們看到了很多單獨的樹。

They saw the smoke and the elm and the ash and the pine, but they failed to see the wood.

他們看到了煙、榆、灰、松，卻沒有看到木頭。

They failed to see that all of that added up to a powerful case that there had been a miscarriage of justice.

他們沒有看到，所有這一切加起來就是一個強有力的案例，即存在誤判。

Why did you say those things?

你為什麼說這些話？

Some of the police interview tactics were later described by an independent psychologist as highly manipulative and relentless.

警方的一些面談策略後來被一位獨立的心理學家描述為高度的操縱性和無情。

This line of questioning lasted almost three minutes.

這一行問話持續了近三分鐘。

There are fingerprints on the can in the shop.

店裡的罐頭上有指紋。

There are hairs in the hat that was found nearby.

帽子裡有毛髮，是在附近發現的。

People did see you there.

人們確實看到你在那裡。

We traced the senior officer who led the interviews at Hackney police Station.

我們追查了在哈克尼警察局上司面試的高級官員。

He told us the interviews with Oliver Campbell were tape recorded and conducted in accordance with the codes of practice issued under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, which applied at that time today.

他告訴我們，與奧利弗-坎貝爾的面談是按照當時適用的《警察和刑事證據法》發佈的業務守則進行的，並進行了錄音。

His interviews would never be heard by a jury because of the unfairness of the police questioning, because I don't think that the prosecution could prove that he understood the implications of being interviewed without a solicitor.

他的面談永遠不會被陪審團聽到，因為警方的問話不公平，因為我認為控方無法證明他明白在沒有律師的情況下接受面談的意義。

It's the current law, unfair treatment that counts for any appeal.

這是現行法律，不公平的待遇，任何上訴都算。

But even in 1990 vulnerable suspects had to be interviewed with what's known as an appropriate adult to protect their interests.

但即使在1990年，弱勢的嫌疑人也必須與所謂的合適的成年人進行面談，以保護他們的利益。

There was no appropriate adult at his first interview at Plast, a police station in which he said he was at the shop on the night of the robbery and he waived his right to a solicitor.

他在警察局Plast的第一次面談時沒有合適的成年人，他說搶劫當晚他在店裡，他放棄了請律師的權利。

But in the interviews that followed at Hackney Police Station, conducted by two other detectives, an appropriate adult and a solicitor were there.

但在隨後在哈克尼警察局由另外兩名偵探進行的採訪中，一名合適的成年人和一名律師都在那裡。

The key confession came on the evening of the first of December 1990 that changed everything.

1990年12月1日晚的關鍵懺悔改變了一切。

An appropriate adult from social services have been attending police interviews earlier that day alongside an experienced and tough defense minister called Arthur Mallinger.

當天早些時候，一位來自社會服務機構的合適成年人一直和一位經驗豐富、作風強硬的國防部長亞瑟-馬林格一起參加警方的採訪。

This is the first time he's spoken about what happened that night.

這是他第一次說起那晚發生的事情。

The police did not have anything like sufficient evidence, probably even to I think they get a prosecution off the ground and conviction without something more, Um, and the more was going to be a confession.

警方沒有任何東西 像足夠的證據， 可能甚至我認為他們得到一個起訴 關閉地面和定罪 沒有更多的東西， 嗯，而更多的是 要供認。

Oliver Campbell sustained a brain injury as a baby.

奧利弗-坎貝爾在嬰兒時期腦部受傷。

Mr Mulliner says it was clear that his client would struggle to cope with complex questions.

Mulliner先生說，很明顯，他的客戶將難以應對複雜的問題。

He was inconsistent with what he told me, and I was his lawyer, such that I I felt I didn't think I could rely upon what he was telling me.

他跟我說的話前後不一致，而我是他的律師，所以我覺得我不能相信他跟我說的話。

Let him just discuss it with the police in that way.

讓他就這樣和警察商量。

Our thermal injure left Hackney police station at about 6:30 p.m. He says the police told him they had no plan for further interviews that night and had agreed to call him back.

我們的熱傷員在下午6:30左右離開了哈克尼警察局。 他說，警方告訴他，他們當晚沒有進一步採訪的計劃，並同意給他回電話。

If that changed.

如果改變了。

The police say, Campbell suddenly decided to continue because he wanted to tell the truth.

警方說，坎貝爾突然決定繼續下去，因為他想說實話。

The officers should have telephoned me and said, I think Oliver wants to speak to me.

警官應該打電話給我說，我想奧利弗想和我談談。

Will you come over to be part of the interview?

你會過來參加採訪嗎？

And I would have said Yes, of course I have asked him.

我會說是的，當然我已經問過他了。

He's got an appropriate adult from social services.

他有一個合適的成年人從社會服務。

There are not what we can do about that.

我們對此無能為力。

And we would have had the interview.

我們就會有采訪。

I don't know how the interview would have panned out, but it would have been undoubtedly a fair interview.

我不知道採訪的結果如何，但這無疑是一次公平的採訪。

Oliver Campbell told the police he was happy to go ahead without a solicitor.

奧利弗-坎貝爾告訴警方，他很樂意在沒有律師的情況下進行。

Back in 1998 Hackney Police Station, Oliver Campbell's solicitor and the appropriate adult from social services, had left for the evening.

早在1998年的哈克尼警察局，奧利弗-坎貝爾的律師和社會服務機構的適當成年人，已經離開了晚上。

The police decided to get his foster mother in my understanding of why I was there was just to be a support for him and, you know, uh, just support him in any way that I could.

警方決定讓他的養母在我的理解 為什麼我在那裡只是為了支持他，你知道，呃，只是支持他以任何方式，我可以。

She agreed to become the appropriate adult, and they rolled the tape again time by My watch now is eight.

她同意成為合適的成年人，他們又按我的手錶現在是八點的時間滾了一遍錄音帶。

38 p.

38 p.

M.

M.

This is interview 11.

這是面試11。

His confession to the police.

他對警方的供詞。

Oh, do not pull the trigger, Baxter.

哦，不要扣動扳機，巴克斯特。

Sorry, could you say that again?

對不起，你能再說一遍嗎？

I set up for that.

我是為此而設的。

I was the one like Putin that got on there, not showing.

我就是像普京一樣，上了那裡，不露面。

Oh, I was put under pressure after savings.

哦，我是在儲蓄後被施壓的。

I didn't want to say it, and that's it.

我不想說，就這樣了。

That's how I felt.

這就是我的感覺。

I felt like in a sardine can.

我感覺像在沙丁魚罐頭裡。

It's like you've got sardine.

就像你吃了沙丁魚一樣。

Can you try and get out of them thinking, Oh, why am I being, um, put under pressure to mix the sound?

你能不能試著擺脫他們的思考，哦，為什麼我被，嗯，放在壓力下混合的聲音？

What?

什麼？

I don't do it.

我不這樣做。

And I felt scared at the time.

而我當時覺得很害怕。

Mhm.

嗯

When his foster mother heard him confess to murder, she was physically sick.

當他的養母聽到他承認殺人時，身體不適。

Are you happy to carry on?

你樂意繼續嗎？

You don't think you can carry on?

你認為你不能繼續嗎？

Um, we'll stop the interviewing.

嗯，我們將停止採訪。

The confession statement was already on tape.

供詞已經被錄了下來。

It felt as as though I was in a trance, uh, a shock.

我感覺自己好像恍惚了一下，呃，嚇了一跳。

I'd never been in any situation that made me feel so utterly devastated.

我從來沒有在任何情況下，讓我感到如此徹底的崩潰。

Oliver Campbell's foster mother was magistrate, but this was a very personal story.

奧利弗-坎貝爾的養母是治安官，但這是一個非常私人的故事。

And she says she didn't understand the significance of being his appropriate adult and it was not adequately explained, she said at the time.

而且她說她不明白作為他的合適成年人的意義，而且當時也沒有得到充分的解釋。

She felt manipulated by the police.

她覺得被警察操縱了。

I have a very strong suspicion that they deliberately arranged the interview in the absence of a sort of because during the interview, all of us, Mr Mullins, who was very able and very experienced, was protesting about the unfairness of some of the questioning, and I think they realize this is I can't prove this, but it's a strong suspicion.

我有一個非常強烈的懷疑，他們故意安排的採訪中沒有一種，因為在採訪過程中，我們所有的人，穆林斯先生，誰是非常能幹的，非常有經驗的，是抗議的不公平的一些問題，我想他們意識到這是我不能證明這一點，但它是一個強烈的懷疑。

I think they realized that they were never going to get an admission from him if a solicitor was present, they will deny that, and I suppose it's impossible to prove they would deny it.

我想他們意識到，如果有律師在場，他們是絕對不會得到他的承認的，他們會否認，我想無法證明他們會否認。

And it's fair to say that the judge who heard conducted a hearing the trial judge conducted the hearing about whether to admit that statement, declared it admissible and said that there had been no impropriety by the police.

而公平地說，聽取的法官進行了聽證會... ...主審法官進行了關於是否接受該陳述的聽證會，宣佈該陳述可以接受，並說警方並無不當之處。

But I don't believe that defense counsel brought up any of the to my mind, very obvious points that could be made about the unfairness of the police conduct.

但我不相信辯方律師提出了任何... ...在我看來，非常明顯的觀點，可以提出關於警察行為的不公平性。

Do you think you were misled?

你認為你被誤導了嗎？

I was Mr Oh, yeah, of course, Of course, I was misled.

哦，是的，當然，當然，我被誤導了。

Even if we take the what the officer said that he never promised to bring me, I'm mistaken well, but the questions that arises, why didn't he bring me?

即使我們把警官說的他從來沒有答應過帶我來，我錯了好，但是問題來了，他為什麼沒有帶我來？

Why did you bring?

你為什麼要帶？

The senior police officer who conducted the key confession interview told us he suspects Mr Campbell is in denial of murder, adding, when he was interviewed by me, he had the assistance of a sinister or an appropriate adult to look after him.

進行關鍵供詞采訪的高級警官告訴我們，他懷疑坎貝爾先生否認謀殺，並補充說，當他被我採訪時，他有一個陰險的或適當的成年人協助照顧他。

It is correct.

這是正確的。

He did not have a solicitor present when he confessed, however, his appropriate adult was present throughout, and he had waived his right to have his sinister.

他認罪時沒有律師在場，但是，他的合適的成年人全程在場，他放棄了讓自己的罪人在場的權利。

His interview tape recordings were played at his trial, and the jury had ample opportunity to consider whether or not his confession was genuine.

他的面談錄音在他的審判中被播放，陪審團有充分的機會考慮他的供詞是否真實。

And this was not the only evidence which incriminated him.

而這並不是指控他的唯一證據。

The CCRC is reviewing the case for the second time now.

目前，CCRC正在對該案進行第二次審查。

Oliver Campbell's lawyers say there are many points of unfairness, but perhaps the most powerful argument concerns his confession.

奧利弗-坎貝爾的律師說，有很多不公平的地方，但也許最有力的論據是關於他的供詞。

Oliver is mentally very challenged, and during those interviews the police behaved, I think, very unfairly the law and practice in regard to the way that mentally challenged suspects and defendants are treated has changed very considerably in their favor.

奧利弗在精神上有很大的問題，在這些採訪中，警察的行為，我認為，非常不公平的法律和實踐，在對待精神障礙的嫌疑人和被告的方式已經發生了非常大的變化，對他們有利。

Oh, Oliver Campbell, who's out on licence living in sheltered accommodation, has plans if his conviction is quashed.

奧利弗-坎貝爾，他在出獄後住在庇護所裡，如果他的定罪被撤銷，他有計劃。

Once my name is cleared, I'm not trying to say, Look, I'm gon I'm not getting out of the country because what's happened to me?

一旦我的名字被清除了，我不是想說，你看，我不會因為我發生的事情而離開這個國家？

It's buggered up my life.

它把我的生活搞得一團糟。

A former commissioner who spent five years that the CCRC told us his case should be referred back to the appeal court when you break it down and this, I think, is my fundamental concern about the case.

一個用了五年時間的前委員，CCRC告訴我們，他的案子應該在你細分的時候，再發回上訴法院，我想這是我對這個案子的根本擔憂。

Each of the elements that led to the conviction have a weakness about them.

導致定罪的每一個要素都有一個弱點。

So if this case had come across your desk when you were in the Criminal Cases Review Commission, do you think you would have been minded to refer this?

所以，如果這個案子是你在刑事案件審查委員會的時候遇到的，你覺得你會不會介意把這個案子提交？

I would have been arguing strongly for referral.

我本來是極力主張轉診的。

I think that modern standards of fairness need to be considered in the context of the confession evidence in particular.

我認為，現代的公平標準，特別是在口供證據方面需要考慮。

Uh huh.

嗯哼。

So the CCRC will shortly decide whether to refer this case back to the Court of appeal and how modern standards of confession evidence apply to what many believe is a troubling case from the past.

所以，CCRC很快就會決定是否將此案發回上訴法院，以及現代的口供證據標準如何適用於很多人認為是過去的麻煩案件。

Richard Watson with our exclusive report while News Night contacted the family of the murder victim Baldev Handle.

理查德-沃森與我們的獨家報道，同時《新聞之夜》聯繫到了謀殺案受害者Baldev Handle的家人。

But they didn't wish to take part in this film or to comment.

但他們不願意參加這部電影，也不願意發表意見。

We also asked the Metropolitan Police about this case.

我們也向大都會警方詢問了此案的情況。

A spokeswoman said the case was fully investigated at the time, with a range of evidence brought before a jury who convicted the defendant in 1991.

一位女發言人說，當時對該案進行了全面調查，並向陪審團提供了一系列證據，陪審團於1991年將被告定罪。

We are aware this matters with the Criminal Cases Review Commission and therefore it would not be appropriate to comment further at this stage.

我們知道這是由刑事案件審查委員會處理的問題，是以在現階段不宜進一步評論。