This is a moment of peril for Nicola Sturgeon.

這對尼古拉-斯特金來說是一個危險的時刻。

Last week, Alex Salmond accused her of lying to the Scottish Parliament and of breaking the ministerial code over her handling of the allegations against her.

上週，亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德指責她向蘇格蘭議會撒謊，並在她處理對她的指控時違反了部長守則。

And then today, a release of a bundle of documents which go to the heart of this titanic struggle between the two giants of Scottish independence.

而今天，一捆文件的發佈 牽扯到了蘇格蘭獨立的兩大巨頭之間的鉅額鬥爭的核心。

And they do help his case.

而且他們確實有助於他的案子。

So in the first place we had a trail of emails and written submissions from lawyers warning the Scottish government that they had strong concerns that it could lose a judicial review into its handling of the complaints against Mr Salmon.

是以，首先，我們有一連串的電子郵件和律師的書面意見，警告蘇格蘭政府，他們有強烈的擔憂，它可能會失去對其處理Salmon先生的投訴的司法審查。

So let's take a look at this document from the 31st of October 2018 and this this shows you Roddy Dunlop Qc.

所以我們來看一下2018年10月31日的這份文件，這個這是你Roddy Dunlop Qc。

Who was the Scottish government's main outside legal advisor, raising concerns.

誰是蘇格蘭政府的主要外部法律顧問，引發關注。

There you are.

你在這裡啊

I am very concerned indeed, and the reason why these concerns were being raised well, that's because the civil servant investigating the case had been in touch with the complainants and in the view of those lawyers that would make them ineligible for that task.

我確實非常擔心，之所以提出這些擔心，很好，那是因為調查此案的公務員曾與投訴人接觸過，在那些律師看來，他們就沒有資格做這項工作。

But then, let's look at another document this is 11th of December 2018, and this shows that Lord Wolf, that's the most senior Scottish law officer who is a member of the Scottish government, did not want to give up.

但是，我們再看另一份文件這是2018年12月11日，這表明沃爾夫勳爵，也就是蘇格蘭政府最高級的法律官員，他不想放棄。

There you are.

你在這裡啊

This is an internal document saying the L A.

這是一份內部文件，說的是L A。

The Lord Advocate, was indeed clear about no question of conceding now.

主辯護人，確實很清楚現在不存在讓步的問題。

The Scottish government did indeed throw in the town in January 2019.

蘇格蘭政府確實在2019年1月在該鎮投。

They had then had to pay half a million pounds to Alex Salmond to cover his legal fees on top of having to cover their own legal fees.

然後，他們不得不向亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德支付50萬英鎊，以支付他的法律費用，此外還必須支付他們自己的法律費用。

Now these documents were only released to the Scottish Parliamentary Committee investigating all of this when it looked highly likely that John Sweeney, who is the deputy first minister, was going to lose a vote of no confidence in him in the Scottish Parliament.

現在，這些文件只是在蘇格蘭議會委員會調查這一切的時候，才被公佈給蘇格蘭議會委員會，而約翰-斯威尼，他是第一副部長，看起來極有可能在蘇格蘭議會中失去對他的不信任投票。

Emotions, feelings running very high there we can look at an exchange between murder Fraser, who is the main Scottish member of that committee, and John Sweeney at Hollywood earlier today.

情緒，感情非常高漲在那裡我們可以看看謀殺弗雷澤，誰是該委員會的主要蘇格蘭成員，和約翰-斯威尼之間的交流今天早些時候在好萊塢。

For months, the committee has been calling for publication of the legal advice.

幾個月來，委員會一直在呼籲公佈法律意見。

There have been two votes in parliament last year calling for it to be published, and only now, at the very last moment when the metaphorical gun is held to the head of the deputy first minister and he is threatened with a vote of no confidence, does he finally agree to release some legal advice at the very last possible moment?

去年議會已經有兩次投票要求公佈，直到現在，在比喻槍口頂在第一副部長頭上，威脅他要進行不信任投票的最後時刻，他才終於同意在最後時刻公佈一些法律諮詢意見？

Servicer?

服務商？

First of all, can I say that when if I heard Mr Fraser correctly and I may have misheard him and if I do, I will apologize.

首先，我可以說，如果我沒有聽錯弗雷澤先生的話，我可能聽錯了，如果我聽錯了，我會道歉。

But I think he said that a gun had been metaphorically held to my head.

但我覺得他說的是用槍比喻我的腦袋。

No, I don't think presiding officer.

不，我不認為審判長。

That is appropriate terminology for one member of Parliament to use to another.

這是一個議員對另一個議員使用的適當術語。

Neither.

都沒有。

Now there was a second set of documents that go to the heart of Alex Salmond's claim that his successor of Scottish first minister misled the Parliament.

現在有第二組文件，進入亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德聲稱他的蘇格蘭第一部長的繼任者誤導議會的核心。

Now Nicola Sturgeon originally claimed that she first learned of the complaints of sexual harassment against him on the second of April 2018, when he told her about the matter meeting at her home.

現在，尼古拉-斯特金最初聲稱，她第一次知道對他的性騷擾投訴是在2018年4月2日，當時他告訴她在她家裡開會的事情。

Nicola Sturgeon subsequently admitted that she'd forgotten about a meeting four days later on the 29th of March with his former chief of staff, Jeff Abedin, who said that the complaints were discussed then and in the bundle of documents released tonight, there was a statement by Kevin Pringle, who's the SNP's former director, Communications, who confirmed that account.

尼古拉-斯特金隨後承認，她已經忘記了四天後的3月29日與他的前參謀長傑夫-阿貝丁的會面，他說當時討論了投訴，在今晚發佈的一捆文件中，有一個Kevin Pringle的聲明，他是SNP的前主任，通信，他證實了這一說法。

Now Alex Salmond believes that after the Scottish government lost that judicial review in early 2019, a plot was hatched to arrest him for sexual assault.

現在，亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德認為，在蘇格蘭政府失去了2019年初的那次司法審查之後，有人策劃了一個陰謀，以性侵犯為由逮捕他。

He went on trial, and in March last year he was acquitted of all sexual assault charges, though he did admit to inappropriate behavior towards women that he worked with.

他接受了審判，去年3月，他被無罪釋放，雖然他承認對與他合作的女性有不當行為。

Now the Scottish government is calling for a vote of no confidence in Nicola Sturgeon and her handling of this.

現在蘇格蘭政府呼籲對尼古拉-斯特金及其處理方式進行不信任投票。

It's highly likely that shall survive because the Scottish Greens, who hold the balance of power, they're saying no, let's let the committee get on with its work and this is what a spokesperson for the first minister said of that vote.

這很有可能，應生存，因為蘇格蘭綠黨，誰掌握權力平衡，他們說不，讓委員會繼續其工作，這是第一部長的發言人說的投票。

To call a vote of no confidence in the middle of a pandemic before hearing a single word of the first ministers.

在大流行中，還沒聽到首輔們的一句話，就進行不信任投票。

Evidence is utterly irresponsible, but this is all being watched with great care in Downing Street in London, and UK ministers believe that if Nicola sturgeon is forced out.

證據是完全不負責任的，但這一切都被倫敦唐寧街小心翼翼地關注著，英國的大臣們認為，如果尼古拉-鱘魚被迫離開。

That would be a hammer blow to the independence cause because they believe that there is no one in the SNP who can match her star power.

這將是對獨立事業的一記重錘，因為他們相信，在SNP中沒有人可以與她的明星力量相媲美。

And if she survives, they hope she will be damaged.

而如果她能活下來，他們希望她能受損。

And the thinking, then, is that the tentative signs in a slowing of support for the SNP and a slowing of support for independence.

那麼，我們的想法是，在支持SNP的暫時性跡象和支持獨立的速度放緩。

They hope that momentum will go in their direction.

他們希望這種勢頭能朝著他們的方向發展。

Nick.

尼克

Thanks very much indeed.

真的非常感謝。

Nick.

尼克

What?

什麼？

There?

有嗎？

And it is a complicated story, but we're going to be joined now by Douglas Ross, the leader of the Scottish conservatives who today called for Nicola Sturgeon's resignation, and by Hamzi Yusuf, the Scottish Justice Secretary, and SNP MSP.

這是一個複雜的故事，但我們現在將加入道格拉斯-羅斯，蘇格蘭保守派的領導人，他今天呼籲尼古拉-斯特金辭職，以及蘇格蘭司法部長哈姆齊-優素福，SNP MSP。

Good evening, gentlemen.

晚上好，先生們。

If I can start with Douglas, presumably you want to hear from the first Minister herself tomorrow before you make up your mind on this.

如果我可以從道格拉斯開始說起，大概你想明天先聽聽第一部長本人的意見，然後再做決定。

What is very clear from the evidence that has been released today is that Nicola Sturgeon has misled Parliament.

從今天公佈的證據來看，非常清楚的是，尼古拉-斯特金誤導了議會。

She's lied to the people of Scotland because we have credible witnesses confirming that she was aware of the allegations against Alex Salmond prior to when she previously said she was and, crucially, that complainants details were released to Mr Salmond's team.

她對蘇格蘭人民撒謊，因為我們有可靠的證人證實，她知道對亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德的指控，在她之前說她知道，關鍵是，投訴人的細節被釋放給薩爾蒙德先生的團隊。

I mean, that is just absolutely awful with the women at the heart of this.

我的意思是，這只是絕對可怕的與女性的核心。

It has been so badly let down.

它已經被如此嚴重地辜負了。

And that's before we even look at the absolute waste of taxpayers money, given that the Scottish government knew months before they finally gave up in their case that it was doomed to failure.

而這還沒等我們看清納稅人的錢是如何絕對浪費的，因為蘇格蘭政府在最終放棄他們的案子之前的幾個月就知道這案子註定要失敗。

So you would just say at this point what?

所以你就會說這時什麼？

You don't even want to hear her evidence tomorrow?

你明天都不想聽她的證詞嗎？

Well, what I'm saying is there is no clear corroboration that nuclear surgeons like to parliament, and we have lost first ministers in Scotland for far less.

我想說的是，沒有明確的證據表明核外科醫生喜歡進入議會，而我們在蘇格蘭失去的第一部長要少得多。

She is accused, and there is a huge amount of evidence now that she has misled Parliament and misled the people of Scotland.

她是被指控的，現在有大量的證據表明她誤導了議會，誤導了蘇格蘭人民。

There will be plenty of people tonight saying you have one rule for your party at Westminster and another for the SNP.

今晚會有很多人說你在威斯敏斯特對你的政黨有一個規則，而對SNP有另一個規則。

Conservative ministers in Westminster don't resign when they're accused of breaking the ministerial code.

威斯敏斯特的保守派部長在被指控違反部長守則時不會辭職。

Well, I think we've calculated over 30 occasions where we believe Nicola Sturgeon has breached the ministerial code a number of occasions where she has lied to Parliament, where she has failed to correct the record.

我想我們已經計算了超過30次 我們認為尼古拉・斯特金已經違反了部長守則 她對議會撒謊的次數，她沒有糾正記錄。

This is a damning indictment on her performance as first minister and also how she has left this government to continue with the legal face case that their own lawyers threatened to walk away from unless they ultimately dropped this case at a cost of hundreds of thousands of pounds to our Scottish taxpayers.

這是對她作為第一部長的表現的嚴重控訴，也是她如何讓這個政府繼續進行法律面的案件，他們自己的律師威脅要離開，除非他們最終放棄這個案件，花費數十萬英鎊給我們的蘇格蘭納稅人。

This is still double standards, though, isn't it?

不過這還是雙重標準，不是嗎？

I mean, as a unionist, you must believe in common standards for both parties in both countries.

我的意思是，作為一個聯盟主義者，你必須相信兩個國家的兩黨的共同標準。

Well, I'm sure common standards also relates to the fact that Nicola Sturgeon, when choosing opposition with the SNP, calls for Henry McLeish to resign over an issue with subletting his office if we're looking at double standards or equal standards.

好吧，我相信共同的標準也涉及到尼古拉-斯特金，當與SNP選擇反對派時，呼籲亨利-麥克利什因轉租他的辦公室的問題而辭職，如果我們正在尋找雙重標準或平等標準。

The Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP called for a former first minister to resign.

Nicola Sturgeon和SNP呼籲前第一部長辭職。

He did the right thing.

他做了正確的事情。

He resigned.

他辭職了。

Nicola Sturgeon was to do the right thing and resigned.

尼古拉-斯特金要做正確的事情，並辭職。

You heard Nick's remarks just before that.

你聽到了尼克之前的言論。

This will be seen as an attempt to weaken a very powerful leader at a critical point in Scotland's trajectory towards possibly a second referendum.

這將被視為在蘇格蘭走向可能的第二次公投的關鍵時刻，試圖削弱一位非常強大的領導人。

This is so crucial to restore trust in Scottish politics you're going to be speaking to the SNPs justice secretary, and I'd like to know how comfortable he is with the SNP refusing to follow two votes of the Scottish Parliament to release this legal advice.

這對於恢復對蘇格蘭政治的信任至關重要，你將與SNPs司法祕書交談，我想知道他對SNP拒絕遵循蘇格蘭議會的兩次投票來發布這一法律意見有多舒服。

And then today, damning evidence that has been released is incomplete, something with what was said between lawyers and the Scottish government in November.

然後今天，已經發布的破壞性證據是不完整的，與11月律師和蘇格蘭政府之間所說的東西。

That's some crucial period of time that we know the first minister and the permanent secretary.

這是一些關鍵時期，我們知道第一部長和常務書記。

The Scottish government met with council, but we don't know what's discussed the evidence and the advice given there.

蘇格蘭政府會見了議會，但我們不知道討論了什麼證據和建議在那裡。

So there's so many unanswered questions.

所以有太多的問題沒有答案。

That's what we've got to get to the bottom of.

這就是我們要查清的原因。

I'll put those to him in a second.

我馬上把這些給他。

But does this begin and end with Nicola Sturgeon?

但這一切是否始於尼古拉-斯特金，又止於尼古拉-斯特金？

Or do you believe Scotland's institutions across the board are unfit for purpose?

或者你認為蘇格蘭的所有機構都是不合適的？

Are you unhappy with the process of government that you have in Scotland?

你對蘇格蘭的政府進程不滿意嗎？

This whole sorry saga is dragging down Scottish politics and the reputation of the Scottish Parliament, I've said before I was a school pupil.

這整個遺憾的傳奇正在拖累蘇格蘭政治和蘇格蘭議會的聲譽，我以前說過，我是一個小學生。

When the parliament was re established in 1999 I lined the streets of Edinburgh with pupils from across Scotland celebrating devolution in this new style of politics we're going to get.

當議會在1999年重新建立時，我在愛丁堡的街道上與來自蘇格蘭各地的學生一起排隊，慶祝我們將獲得的這種新式政治的權力下放。

But after 14 years of failure from the SNP is taken down the whole reputation of parliament, and we just need to clear things up a fresh shirt.

但經過14年的失敗，從SNP是採取了整個議會的聲譽，我們只需要清除事情了一件新鮮的襯衫。

And I believe that can only begin if we see the resignation of the first minister, who is clearly lied to Parliament and the people of Scotland home so you can turn to you.

而且我相信，只有當我們看到第一部長辭職時，才能開始，他顯然是對議會和蘇格蘭人民的家撒謊，所以你可以轉向你。

It's looking increasingly hard to defend, isn't it?

看起來越來越難防了吧？

First and foremost is the entire reason why we have a parliamentary inquiry is to hear the evidence is the reason why we have an independent prosecutor from from from Ireland, James Hamilton Looking at whether or not there's been a breach of the ministerial code is to here and investigate the evidence for Douglas Ross to determine Prejudge, not just the parliamentary inquiry, but the independent investigation shows that this is nothing but political naked political opportunism.

首先，最重要的是整個原因 為什麼我們有一個議會調查 是聽到的證據是為什麼我們有一個獨立的檢察官 從來自愛爾蘭，詹姆斯-漢密爾頓看著是否有一個違反 部長代碼是在這裡，調查證據 道格拉斯-羅斯確定Prejudge，不只是議會調查， 但獨立調查顯示，這不過是政治 赤裸裸的政治機會主義。

And Nick what got it absolutely right in your report.

而尼克... ...你的報告完全正確。

Number 10 are watching this.

10號正在看這個。

Not because they care about women who come forward to make allegations in relation to sexual harassment, but actually because what they want to do is try to weaken Nicola Sturgeon, weaken the SNP because there's been 22 poles in a role that was shown the independence.

不是因為他們關心那些站出來提出與性騷擾有關的指控的女性，但實際上是因為他們想要做的是試圖削弱尼古拉-斯特金，削弱SNP，因為已經有22個極點的角色，被顯示出獨立性。

Support for independence is the settled will of the Scottish people.

支持獨立是蘇格蘭人民的既定意願。

So you're the Scottish justice secretary.

所以你是蘇格蘭司法部長。

You will stick with this process, and if she is found to have broken the ministerial code, presumably you will be the first in line to call for her to go.

你要堅持這個過程，如果發現她觸犯了部長守則，估計你會第一個叫她走。

It would be your job to uphold the law.

維護法律是你的職責所在。

Is that right?

是這樣嗎？

The first minister, of course, denies breaking.

第一部長當然否認破。

The ministerial coach has said time and time again.

部級教練一再表示。

If she found guilty, though, if you let the process take its course, not just to the inquiry tomorrow but also, of course, there will be an independent investigation.

如果她被判有罪，不過，如果你讓這個過程採取它的過程，不只是到明天的調查，當然，也會有一個獨立的調查。

So forgive me.

所以原諒我吧

I'm not going to get into the hypotheticals of what she should do if she has done this.

我不打算去假設她做了這件事應該怎麼辦。

Other than that there is a process under way.

除此之外，還有一個過程正在進行。

Let her give her evidence that she has been relishing that has been postponed by the inquiry on a number of occasions.

讓她提供她一直樂此不疲的證據，而這一證據已被調查組多次延後。

And then let's see what the Parliament recommendations and let's see what the independent investigators, uh, results of that investigation are because, yes, it's Justice secretary, I believe in natural justice.

然後讓我們看看議會的建議 讓我們看看獨立的調查人員， 呃，調查結果是什麼 因為，是的，這是司法部長， 我相信自然正義。

That means listening to the evidence and then making informed decisions well after that.

這意味著要聽取證據，然後在證據之後做好明智的決定。

It's confusing, though, because your leader in Westminster in Blackford told us on Friday these were his words allegations without substance.

這很令人困惑，雖然，因為你的上司在威斯敏斯特的布萊克福德週五告訴我們，這些是他的話指控，沒有實質內容。

And Nicholas, certain herself, said he was pursuing a conspiracy theory and a scorched earth policy.

而尼古拉斯自己也肯定，說他追求的是陰謀論和焦土政策。

Do you believe that as the Scottish justice secretary, That's sorry.

你認為作為蘇格蘭司法部長，對不起。

Forgive me that Alex Salmond was pursuing because basically, I think Sorry, forgive me.

原諒我，亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德在追求，因為基本上，我認為對不起，原諒我。

I didn't hear.

我沒聽到。

Do you believe that these are allegations without substance?

你認為這些是沒有實質內容的指控嗎？

In terms of the allegations being made about the Scottish government, I have read a number of spurious conspiracy theories, which I'm afraid to have been completely built on sand.

就對蘇格蘭政府的指控而言，我讀到了一些虛假的陰謀論，這些陰謀論恐怕完全是建立在沙子上的。

They have been washed away.

他們已經被沖走了。

I mean, Alex Salmond was in front of the committee.

我的意思是，亞歷克斯-薩爾蒙德是在委員會的前面。

I'm sure you watched that.

我相信你看了。

I'm sure many people watched it, and when asked, of course, if you could provide documentary evidence of some of the assertions he was making, he was not able to do so.

我相信很多人都看了，當然，當問到你能不能提供他的一些論斷的書面證據時，他是做不到的。

But there is documentary evidence today, for example, that she was advised not to proceed with a case that she would surely lose.

但今天有文件證明，比如說有人勸她不要繼續打一個肯定會輸的官司。

I mean, the documents have been made clear now with other witnesses coming forward.

我的意思是，現在隨著其他證人的出現，文件已經變得清晰了。

Well, forgive me.

好吧，原諒我。

You're being very selective.

你是非常有選擇性的。

You're saying that it was doomed from the beginning.

你是說，它從一開始就註定了。

That is not correct.

這是不正確的。

Actually, in the very beginning, uh, the external counsel said that this case from the Scottish government is very strong.

其實，一開始，呃，外部律師就說，蘇格蘭政府的這個案子很有力度。

As late as middle of November, our law officers, the Lord Advocate, our principal legal adviser was saying that the case was stable.

到了11月中旬，我們的律政人員、法援署署長、我們的首席法律顧問都在說，這個案子很穩定。

It was only later in December that the case was found to be unstable.

直到後來12月，才發現案情不穩。

And then we conceded and settled that case early into the new year, some days or a couple of weeks thereafter.

然後，我們在新的一年年初，也就是幾天或幾周之後，讓步並解決了這個案子。

So they drag out the process.

所以他們就把這個過程拖了下來。

Of course.

當然了

Our principal legal adviser in the middle of December said that the case was stable.

12月中旬，我們的首席法律顧問說，案件穩定。

There may come a time when if she is found to have broken the ministerial code and of course, we don't yet know the results of that yet.

可能有一天，如果發現她違反了部長守則，當然，我們現在還不知道結果。

But if she doesn't resign, you feel that the independence causes getting lost as a result of that or you suffer at the polls.

但如果她不辭職，你會覺得獨立的原因是以而失去，或者你在民調中受到影響。

Is her survival worth more than that cause First and foremost, just as you mentioned in the questioning to Douglas flaws, there is an election in 2.5 odd months.

她的生存價值是否比這個事業更重要 首先，就像你在對道格拉斯缺陷的提問中提到的，2.5個月後有一場選舉。

People will make up their own minds in relation to whether or not Nicola Sturgeon has, uh, whether she has their trust.

人們會根據自己的想法來決定尼古拉-斯特金是否有，呃，是否得到他們的信任。

They will make a decision based on how she has responded in relation to the biggest challenge we've ever faced frankly in our lifetime, let alone in our government in response to the pandemic.

他們將根據她如何應對我們坦率地在我們的一生中面臨的最大挑戰做出決定，更不用說在我們的政府中應對這一流行病了。

So people will have their choice.

所以人們會有自己的選擇。

They will hear from Douglas Ross, who, of course, is not a member of the Scottish Parliament, but they will hear from him who wishes to be first minister will hear from Nicola Sturgeon.

他們將聽取道格拉斯-羅斯的意見，當然，他不是蘇格蘭議會的成員，但他們將聽到他希望成為第一部長的人將聽到尼古拉-斯特金的意見。

And I'm very, very confident.

而且我非常非常有信心。

I have to say, regardless of what comes out of the parliamentary inquiry, that she will be returned not just as first minister, but she will lead us to an independence referendum and ultimately to independence.

我不得不說，無論議會調查的結果如何，她都會回來，不僅僅是作為第一部長，而且她會帶領我們進行獨立公投，最終實現獨立。

Winning that referendum the use of Douglas Ross.

贏得那次公投，使用道格拉斯-羅斯。

Thank you both very much indeed.

真的非常感謝兩位。