Name: 北溪二號衝突再起，歐洲計劃因納瓦利尼制裁俄羅斯｜DW新聞中心 (Conflicts over Nord Stream 2 reignite as Europe plans to sanction Russia over Navalny | DW News)
Uploaded: 2021-02-12T18:25:26.000Z
Duration: 12 min 45 s

Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny is back in court, this time on charges of defaming a World War two veteran who appeared in a government video thes air the latest pictures from Navalny inside of a courtroom in Moscow.

克里姆林宮批評家阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼又回到了法庭上，這次被指控誹謗一名第二次世界大戰的老兵，他出現在政府視頻thes air的最新圖片從納瓦爾尼在莫斯科的法庭內。

情態副詞

He was recently sentenced to several years in jail for allegedly violating his probation in Germany while he recovered from a poisoning attack.

最近，他在德國因涉嫌違反緩刑而被判處數年徒刑，而他正從一次中毒事件中恢復過來。

Navalny's arrest sparked street protests across Russia.

納瓦爾尼的被捕引發了俄羅斯各地的街頭抗議活動。

EU leaders have called for his release, further straining ties between the European Union and Russia.

歐盟領導人呼籲釋放他，進一步拉緊了歐盟和俄羅斯之間的關係。

Yes, as you've been stolen and on the story for us is DWS Aaron Tilton's standing by in Moscow.

是的，因為你被偷了，我們的故事是DWS Aaron Tilton在莫斯科待命。

Aaron, What's the latest, um, legal move here really about?

亞倫，什麼是最新的，嗯，這裡的法律行動到底是什麼？

He's actually answering to slander charges surrounding on statements he made online in the run up to last year's constitutional referendum Here in Russia, Um, that was a referendum which basically in effect allowed Vladimir Putin, who or could potentially allow him to stay in power well into the 20 thirties.

他實際上是在回答誹謗指控 他在網上發表的聲明 在去年的憲法公投之前 在俄羅斯，嗯，那是一次公投 基本上是允許弗拉基米爾-普京的，

Now, of course, that's something that Alexei Navalny opposed, and specifically regarding the comments he made, he was focusing on a video released by Russia today.

現在，當然，這是阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼反對的事情，具體到他發表的言論，他關注的是俄羅斯今天發佈的一段視頻。

Now that's Russia's state broadcaster, and in the video, members of Russian society raised their support and voice their support for this constitutional referendum.

這才是俄羅斯的國家廣播公司，在視頻中，俄羅斯社會成員對這次憲法公投提出了支持，並表示支持。

Now Alexei Navalny labeled them as traders, which resulted in this landing slander charges that he's facing today.

現在阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼給他們貼上了商人的標籤，這導致他今天面臨的這個落地誹謗指控。

Now, of course, this trial was originally slated to take place last year, but Navalny's poisoning with a Soviet era nerve agent, Nova Chuck and then his resulting recuperation in Germany prevented the trial from taking place.

現在，當然，這個審判原定於去年進行，但納瓦爾尼被蘇聯時代的神經毒劑 "新星查克 "毒死，然後他是以在德國休養，使審判無法進行。

Now, of course, he returned to the country earlier this year, was arrested.

當然，現在，他今年年初回國，被逮捕了。

And that's part of the reason that prosecutors are now going ahead with this slander case.

而這也是檢察官現在要繼續審理這起誹謗案的部分原因。

Well, no, of course, we don't know exactly how the court is likely, um, to rule, but it bears saying that the Russian judiciary has never been very sympathetic to Alexei Navalny in the past.

不，當然，我們不知道法院到底會如何裁決 但值得一提的是，俄羅斯司法部門過去從未對阿列克謝-納瓦尼表示過同情

Now, if he were to be sentenced, he could be facing additional jail time or a fine or something akin to community service.

現在，如果他被判刑，他可能會面臨額外的監禁時間或罰款或類似於社區服務的東西。

But at least here in Moscow, it's not expected that he will be facing additional jail time specifically because he is already looking down the barrel of a 2 to 3 year sentence on a different fraud charge.

但至少在莫斯科這裡，預計他不會面臨額外的監禁時間，特別是因為他已經因另一項欺詐指控而面臨2至3年的刑期。

Instead, if you talk to people around Lexi Navalny's orbit, they say that there's a little bit of a different motivation behind this slander charges.

相反，如果你和萊克西-納瓦尼身邊的人哈拉，他們說，這個誹謗指控背後有一點不同的動機。

Right now, they say that the Kremlin is attempting to hurt.

現在，他們說克里姆林宮試圖傷害。

Alexa is standing in the court of public opinion.

You have to remember, World War Two veterans are held up to a very, very high standard in high regard here in Russia.

你要記住，二戰老兵在俄羅斯被奉為非常非常高的標準。

So by accusing him of slandering one of them, it could be an attempt to harm his standing with everyday Russians.

所以指責他誹謗其中一個人，可能是想損害他在日常俄羅斯人中的地位。

And at the same time, his defense team is still looking at avenues that they could use to get him out of jail long term.

而與此同時，他的辯護團隊還在尋找可以讓他長期出獄的途徑。

And this ties them up in court in a time where they could be using those resource is elsewhere.

而這就把他們綁在了法庭上，在他們可以把這些資源用在其他地方的時候。

So, of course, the position of the Russian government is that these are serious charges.

所以，當然，俄羅斯政府的立場是，這些都是嚴重的指控。

But if you ask people surrounding Team Navalny, they say it's an attempt to basically harassed them in in the court of law.

但如果你問納瓦尼團隊周圍的人，他們說這基本上是企圖在法庭上騷擾他們。

Okay, Aaron, I want to talk about on the diplomatic level internationally because we have this very dramatic threat today from the foreign Minister of Russia Sergey Lavrov, saying that Moscow is ready to sever ties with the European Union.

好的，亞倫，我想談談國際上的外交層面，因為我們今天有一個非常戲劇性的威脅，來自俄羅斯外交部長謝爾蓋-拉夫羅夫，他說莫斯科準備切斷與歐盟的關係。

Just walk us through the back story here and what such a move could mean.

就帶我們瞭解一下這裡的背景故事，這樣的舉動意味著什麼。

Well, I mean, on the face of it, it's kind of hard to take these that threat seriously.

嗯，我的意思是，從表面上看，這是一種很難採取這些威脅嚴重。

I mean, you have to remember the European Union is still the most important trading partner to the Russian Federation.

我的意思是，你必須記住，歐盟仍然是俄羅斯聯邦最重要的貿易伙伴。

It's also the largest sort of source, rather of direct investment within the country.

這也是最大的一種來源，而是國內的直接投資。

So it's hard to imagine a scenario where Moscow and the you could completely sever ties and to be absolutely honest, I mean, the relationship has been leveled, loaded with sanctions since the Crimea conflict, and since the conflict in Ukraine and they're still talking to each other, they're still working with each other.

是以，很難想象莫斯科和你可以完全斷絕關係的情況，絕對誠實，我的意思是，自克里米亞衝突以來，這種關係一直是水準的，加載了制裁，自烏克蘭衝突以來，他們仍然在互相交談，他們仍然在與對方合作。

So it's It's kind of hard to imagine a scenario where they could completely break off ties and you also have to look at the context that these statements were made and it was made on Ah live stream of a Russian journalist, Vladimir Solovyov, who is often considered to be one of the Kremlin's chief propaganda, see, often gives the Kremlin um, an avenue to help shape the conversation within the country.

是以，這是一種很難想象的情況下，他們可以完全斷絕關係，你也必須看看這些聲明的背景，這些聲明是在Ah現場直播的俄羅斯記者，弗拉基米爾-索洛維約夫，他通常被認為是克里姆林宮的首席宣傳之一，看到，經常給克里姆林宮嗯，一個管道，以幫助塑造國內的對話。

So these statements, it does seem because they were taking place in that live stream.

所以這些說法，確實是因為他們是在那場直播中進行的。

It seems they were mawr intended towards domestic consumption as opposed to being sent up of message directly labeled at the European Union.

看來，他們的目的是為了國內消費，而不是被髮送了資訊直接標記在歐盟。

So I would say, Well, of course you have to take statements like this Seriously, I would say this is Maura Little bit of saber rattling intended for domestic consumption rather than a threat directly at the U Aaron Hilton in Moscow.

是以，我會說，嗯，當然，你必須認真對待這樣的聲明，我會說這是Maura有點劍拔弩張，旨在國內消費，而不是直接在莫斯科的U亞倫希爾頓的威脅。

Thank you, thank you, Alexey Navalny is also the focus of a growing diplomatic crisis between the EU and Russia that we've just been hearing about from Aaron.

謝謝，謝謝，阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼也是歐盟和俄羅斯之間日益嚴重的外交危機的焦點，我們剛剛從亞倫那裡聽到了。

Moscow says that it's ready to cut ties with Brussels if the EU goes ahead with harsh economic sanctions when possible.

莫斯科表示，如果歐盟在可能的情況下進行嚴厲的經濟制裁，莫斯科準備與布魯塞爾斷絕關係。

Target is a nearly completed gas pipeline between Russia and Germany.

目標是俄羅斯和德國之間幾乎完成的天然氣管道。

Some people say that linking these projects to human rights concerns is a really bad idea.

有些人說，把這些項目與人權問題聯繫起來是一個非常糟糕的想法。

The North Stream two is ready, at least the German end of the nearly 2500 kilometer long pipeline.

北溪二號已經準備好了，至少是近2500公里長的管道的德國端。

It starts here in the Baltic Sea town of Luqman the receiving terminal, with its thick pipes and heavy safety valves, has been ready to go since the summer.

從這裡開始，波羅的海小鎮Luqman的接收站，帶著粗大的管道和沉重的安全閥，從夏天開始就已經準備好了。

Mayor Oxy forked is concerned that despite this, the Russian gas pipeline might never be operational.

市長奧克斯叉擔心，儘管如此，俄羅斯的天然氣管道可能永遠無法運行。

It would give us a very bad public image if we had an investment disaster of this magnitude, and the political debate continued to be so heated.

如果我們發生如此嚴重的投資災難，而政治辯論又繼續如此激烈，會給我們的公眾形象帶來非常不好的影響。

I suspect that would also scare off investors we'd like to keep this.

我猜想這也會嚇跑我們想保留這個的投資者。

150 kilometers of pipeline has become a hot topic.

The section has yet to be completed on the bottom of the Baltic Sea, but calls for tougher sanctions against Russia are getting louder.

波羅的海底的這一段還沒有完成，但對俄羅斯進行更嚴厲制裁的呼聲越來越高。

After the reported poisoning of opposition politician Aleksei Navalny, many demanded a halt to construction off the North Stream.

據報道，反對派政治家阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼中毒後，許多人要求停止北溪沿岸的施工。

Two local authorities refused to believe that construction might be stopped.

兩個地方當局拒絕相信可能會停止施工。

Can you really lengthy case of navalny toe a project like North Stream two?

你真的可以長篇大論的納瓦利尼到北流二號這樣的項目嗎？

Wouldn't it be better to look at these two events separately, especially when the facts, at least according to my assessments, are not yet clear enough to place the blame on Russian government?

將這兩個事件分開來看，尤其是在事實，至少根據我的評估，還沒有明確到可以將責任推給俄羅斯政府的情況下，是不是會更好？

The mayor is voicing the opinion of the citizens of Luqman a seaside resort on the Baltic Sea.

市長正在表達Luqman這個波羅的海海濱度假勝地的市民的意見。

Because of the coronavirus, there aren't enough tourists, but there are also very few locals on the beach.

因為冠狀病毒的緣故，遊客不夠多，但海灘上的當地人也很少。

People think everything the Russians do is bad.

人們認為俄羅斯人做的一切都是壞事。

我們能承受得起幾百萬的浪費嗎？

Only one person dares to criticize Russia.

They were historically a reliable partner as long as it benefited them for political reasons, I would not continue this project.

他們在歷史上是一個可靠的合作伙伴，只要出於政治原因對他們有利，我就不會繼續這個項目。

Very Jesus Project Inishmaan provoked all that matters is a consistent supply of energy.

非常耶穌計劃伊尼什曼挑起所有的要緊的是持續供給能量。

After Germany's nuclear phase out, gas will become essential, he says.

他說，德國淘汰核電後，天然氣將成為必不可少的。

Even if it comes from Russia Way find Russia, including Vladimir Putin, to be a reliable partner in social and economic life in the state of Mecklenburg Western Pomerania, and especially here at our energy and business site, I see no reason for Putin or the Russian government to be sidelined.

即使它來自俄羅斯方式發現俄羅斯，包括弗拉基米爾-普京，是梅克倫堡西波美拉尼亞州社會和經濟生活中的可靠合作伙伴，特別是在我們的能源和商業網站上，我認為普京或俄羅斯政府沒有理由被排擠。

Lukman expects Russian natural gas to flow through these pipes soon, so as we've been hearing there, some in the region are very much pro north.

盧克曼預計俄羅斯的天然氣很快就會流經這些管道，所以正如我們在那裡聽到的那樣，該地區的一些人非常支持北方。

Stream two, Let's hear from somebody who thinks that the project should be canceled.

流二，讓我們來聽聽誰認為這個項目應該取消。

我們現在由Agnieszka Bruguera加入。

She is a member of the German parliament for the opposition Green Party, and she sits on the Bundestag's Defense committee.

她是德國議會反對黨綠黨的成員，她是聯邦議院國防委員會的成員。

Welcome to the program, and thank you for joining us.

歡迎來到節目現場，感謝您的加入。

Supporters of this project say it's an economic.

這個項目的支持者說，這是一個經濟。

It should not be used as political leverage.

I think building this pipeline waas wrong all along on Bond.

我認為修建這條管道是邦德一直以來的錯誤。

There are many reasons why this is so on, but it's never too late to fix the mist.

原因有很多，但霧裡看花，亡羊補牢，為時未晚。

Ake and I think the most important reason, um, is that we have to take our own climate goals seriously.

阿克和我認為最重要的原因，嗯， 是，我們必須認真對待自己的氣候目標。

And this is why the Green Party has been opposed from the beginning to gnaw Austrian too.

這也是為什麼綠黨從一開始就反對啃奧也。

But there is, of course, a link to the attempted murder attack on Navalny because the German government should send a very clear message to Putin and to the Kremlin that we will not, uh, that this unanswered and this would be a decision that would hurt.

但是，當然，與納瓦爾尼的謀殺未遂襲擊有聯繫，因為德國政府應該向普京和克里姆林宮發出一個非常明確的資訊，我們不會，呃，這個沒有得到迴應，這將是一個傷害的決定。

I want to get your opinion on a counter argument now.

我現在想聽聽你對反駁的意見。

And here's the German foreign minister, speaking in Parliament earlier this week.

這是德國外長本週早些時候在議會的講話。

Let's have a listen, but they're not streams.

Anyone who fundamentally questions the Nord Stream two pipeline and you can certainly advocate that opinion must also consider a t least geo strategically, what consequences that will have.

任何從根本上質疑北溪二管道的人，你當然可以主張這個觀點，也必須考慮一個t至少地緣戰略上的問題，這將會產生什麼後果。

It will drive Russia and China closer and closer together, and it will create the largest economic military alliance there is.

它將促使俄羅斯和中國的關係越來越密切，它將建立最大的經濟軍事聯盟。

And I don't think that should be the strategy of the West in this dispute.

而我認為這不應該是西方國家在這場爭端中的策略。

And that's why I'm against burning all bridges to Russia in this context.

這也是為什麼我反對在這種情況下燒掉所有與俄羅斯的橋樑。

So when you put it in the broader geo strategic picture as we're seeing there, does the foreign minister have a point?

那麼當你把它放在我們看到的更大的地緣戰略格局中時，外長有什麼觀點嗎？

I don't think so, because first we have to take our climate go seriously.

我不這麼認為，因為首先我們要認真對待我們的氣候問題。

And when we do that, we see that the time off this make a fossil fuel project is over.

而當我們這樣做的時候，我們就會發現，這個做化石燃料項目的時間已經結束了。

We have already over capacity in our infrastructure, so we really don't need it, and it's bad for the climate.

我們的基礎設施已經產能過剩，所以我們真的不需要，這對氣候也不好。

But the other hand we see when the when the foreign minister says this is the only good, uh, link we have with President Putin.

但另一方面我們看到，當外長說這是我們與普京總統唯一的良好聯繫。

We have to cooperate in questions off energy.

我們可以在可再生能源方面進行合作。

And I think the time is up for only concerned words.

而我認為，只關心文字的時間已經到了。