Howard Bryant.

Howard Bryant.

Howard, thank you so much for being with us on short notice.

霍華德，非常感謝你能在短時間內和我們在一起。

And I'm so grateful to have you because you have such a unique perspective.

而我很感謝有你，因為你有如此獨特的視角。

Having wrote the book The Last Hero.

寫過《最後的英雄》一書。

A life of Henry, Can you talk to me about what it was like working on the book with him and how you met him?

亨利的一生，你能和我談談和他一起寫這本書是什麼感覺，你是怎麼認識他的？

Yeah, well, thank you for this.

是啊，好吧，謝謝你。

It's a very devastating day, obviously.

很顯然，這是一個非常具有破壞性的一天。

And I remember back in 2005, 2006, when I first wanted to work on this project and it took forever to try to get Henry to, uh, even reach him because his camp was so convinced that the only reason people wanted to talk to him was to compare him to Barry Bonds because his record was in jeopardy of being broken.

我記得在2005年，2006年的時候，當我第一次想做這個項目的時候，我花了很長時間去嘗試讓亨利去，呃，甚至去聯繫他，因為他的陣營確信，人們想和他談話的唯一原因是把他和巴里-邦茲相提並論，因為他的記錄有被打破的危險。

And I finally got a chance to call him.

而我終於有機會給他打電話了。

And it was on Jackie Robinson's birthday.

而且是在傑克-羅賓遜的生日。

It was January 31st, 2000 and six, and we we talked and he said to me, I don't understand why you're calling Nobody.

那是2000年1月31日6點，我們... ...我們聊了起來，他對我說，我不明白你為什麼要給無名氏打電話。

Nobody cares about me.

沒有人關心我。

No one is.

沒有人是。

Why would anybody be interested in me?

為什麼會有人對我感興趣？

Because you're Henry Aaron, and it was so fascinating because where he was at that point was he It was very aware of his accomplishments and he was very clear about his accomplishments.

因為你是亨利-亞倫，它是如此迷人，因為他在那個點上是他 它是非常清楚他的成就，他是非常清楚他的成就。

But he had been convinced in a lot of ways that this culture didn't have any interest in decency and didn't have any interest in sort of the, you know, his journey.

但他已經確信在很多方面 這個文化沒有任何興趣 在體面和沒有任何興趣 在排序的，你知道，他的旅程。

And it was I.

而這是我。

The thing I love most about Henry was that he was so aware he was absolutely just He really enjoyed the fact that people did finally respect him and that people did reach him.

我最喜歡亨利的一點是，他很清楚自己絕對只是 他真的很享受人們最終尊重他的事實，也很享受人們確實接觸到他。

After all, he went through in 1974 that the country had reached him, and that caught up to his values and he got to enjoy it.

畢竟，他在1974年經歷了國家對他的，這趕上了他的價值觀，他可以享受了。

And people always thought he was bitter.

而人們總是認為他很苦惱。

He wasn't.

他沒有。

He got to enjoy this.

他得享受這個。

And he really, really loved the fact that he got to spend the last quarter century just being a total legend.

他真的，真的很喜歡這樣的事實，他能在過去的四分之一世紀裡成為一個完全的傳奇。

Teoh a new generation Howard, How are you ultimately able to convince him people would appreciate the story that you had to tell about him?

Teoh新一代的Howard，你最終是如何讓他相信人們會欣賞你不得不講的關於他的故事？

How were you able to convince him of that?

你怎麼能說服他呢？

Well, we're on the phone for about an hour, and I remember the the thing that kind of did it waas I said to him, Well, people aren't interested in you because of Barry Bonds people are interested in in you, period your your Henry Aaron, do you e?

我們在電話裡聊了一個小時，我記得最重要的是我對他說，人們對你不感興趣是因為巴里-邦茲，人們對你感興趣的是你，你的亨利-亞倫，你明白嗎？

I was sort of a bays that he was so reticent about it.

我是那種一個海灣，他是如此的沉默不語。

But I think finally, what did it was?

但我想終於，它是什麼？

I got to meet him for the first time in New York, um, at a signing, and we sat down and for the entire conversation, all we talked about, all he talked about was was mobile and at and Atlanta and Milwaukee.

我得到了滿足他的第一次 在紐約，嗯，在一個簽名， 我們坐下來，併為整個談話， 我們談論，他談到的所有 是移動和在和亞特蘭大和密爾沃基。

And he told me this phenomenal story about how much he didn't want to go to Atlanta because of how you know, he didn't wanna go back to the Deep South.

他告訴我這個驚人的故事 他有多不想去亞特蘭大 因為你知道，他不想回到南方深處。

And then he sat down with with Ralph Ralph Abernathy and Dr King and Andrew Young, and they told him, or is important to this movement and to black people as we are.

然後他坐下來與拉爾夫-拉爾夫-阿伯納西和金博士和安德魯-楊，他們告訴他，或者是重要的這個運動和黑人，因為我們是。

And we need you.

我們需要你

We need you to come here and that conversation all talking about that.

我們需要你來這裡和那個對話都在談論這個。

He sort of sat back and he said, Ask whatever question you need.

他有點坐不住了，他說，你有什麼問題就問吧。

It was almost as if his memory reminded him of Yeah, I have a part in this in this American story was here where it all.

這幾乎是，如果他的記憶提醒他的是，我有一個在這在這個美國故事的一部分是在這裡，這一切。

Howard, of kind of how he represented.

霍華德，的種他代表。

It's almost like a politician pre Watergate or something.

這幾乎就像水門事件前的政客什麼的。

Ah, home run champion pre steroids era.

啊，全壘打冠軍前類固醇時代。

How he read what he represented Not just, obviously, is an African American who toppled the I think at the moment he did it the single most significant record in the history of American team sports.

他如何解讀他所代表的不僅僅是，很明顯，是一個非洲裔美國人推翻了我認為在他做的那一刻，美國團隊體育史上最重要的一個記錄。

I think by far, actually, um uh, but the fact that he did it, that he eventually came to represent a kind of more innocents time like before the level of cheating that we saw years later.

我認為到目前為止，其實，嗯嗯，但事實上，他做到了，他最終來代表一種更無辜的時間像之前的水準作弊，我們看到多年後。

Was he aware of that at all?

他完全不知道嗎？

Yeah.

是啊。

And I think that's why the title of the book is the last hero.

而我想這也是為什麼書名是最後的英雄。

That was the last record that to that point in baseball that I felt was really untainted by drugs, that this was the big one.

那是最後一張唱片，到了棒球界，我覺得真的沒有受到毒品的汙染，這才是最重要的一張。

And once this one stopped people, we're gonna have to look at him very differently.

而一旦這傢伙攔住了人，我們就得對他另眼相看了。

And the fact that I think he wanted to stay away from all of that because he felt like it was a lose lose situation.

而事實上，我認為他想遠離這一切，因為他覺得這是一個輸不起的局面。

He always felt like if I come out and complain about, you know, drugs in sports and people are gonna look at me as if I'm this old man with sour grapes And if I say nothing, people think that I'm that I'm tacitly condoning what happened to the sport.

他總覺得如果我站出來抱怨體育界的毒品問題 人們會把我看成是一個酸葡萄的老人 如果我什麼都不說，人們就會認為我是在默許這項運動所發生的事情。

So it's a lose lose situation for me.

所以對我來說，這是一個雙輸的局面。

But what ended up happening was, was he actually grew even stronger in the minds of people because of what we remember about our own nostalgia and our own sort of innocents, whether it's accurate or not.

但最後發生的事情是，他其實在人們的心目中變得更加強大，因為我們對自己的懷舊和自己的那種純真的記憶，不管它是否準確。

What did he say to you about how exactly he felt about the whole steroids ever?

他對你說了什麼，他對整個類固醇的感覺到底如何？

He's completely offended by it.

他完全被它冒犯了。

I think that he he was never He never wanted to be in that situation of having to, um of having to compare and having to talk about it because he always thought that it was a lose lose for him.

我認為，他... ...他從來沒有... ...他從來沒有想過要在這種情況下，嗯... ...有比較，有談論它，因為他總是認為，這是一個失去失去他。

But he was offended by it.

但他卻是以得罪了。

He never he was offended, really by by two things.

他從來沒有他被冒犯過，真正被冒犯的是兩件事。

One you know, one was one was the drugs and the other was the fact of of where the country was going.

一個你知道，一個是... ...一個是毒品... ...另一個是事實的地方 國家要去。

I talked to him 2.5 weeks ago.

兩週半前我跟他談過了

We were talking about working on another project, whether we've been working on a project together, and one of the things that he was really happy about was he was happy that he survived, that he survived the last four years, he because he talked about he used to tell me stories about how when the when he was little and the you know, the Ku Klux Klan would come down the street and mobile.

我們正在談論工作 在另一個項目上， 無論我們一直在工作 在一個項目上一起， 其中一件事，他真的很高興 關於是他很高興，他活了下來， 他活了下來，在過去的四年裡，他 因為他談到，他曾經告訴我的故事 如何當他小的時候，你知道， 三K黨會來 在街上和移動。

His his parents used to throw him and the kids under the bed, and he used to talk about not wanting to feel like the country was going backwards.

他的他的父母經常把他和孩子們扔到床底下，他經常說不想讓人覺得國家在倒退。

And it was amazing that whenever we talked about things, we talked about where the country was going as much as as much as sports and everything else.

而且很神奇的是，每當我們談論事情的時候，我們談論國家的發展方向，就像談論體育和其他一切一樣。

And I was always fascinated by his ability to talk about these things and not be bitter.

而我一直被他談這些事情而不苦惱的能力所吸引。

When he had every right to be bitter, he was just I just really love the fact, if any, y'all get to live.

當他完全有權利苦惱的時候，他只是我真的很喜歡這個事實，如果有的話，你們都可以活下去。

If we all get to be 86 years old, ghetto live at a place in peace.

如果我們都到了86歲，貧民區就可以安居樂業了。

He was at peace with where he was and where the world was.

他對自己和世界的位置都很平靜。

And that, to me, is, uh is a gift.

對我來說，這是，呃，是一種天賦。