WE'RE BACK WITH THE CO-HOSTS OF SHOWTIME'S "THE CIRCUS," ALEX

我們又回到了SHOWTIME的 "THE CIRCUS "的共同主持人，亞歷克斯。

WAGNER, JOHN HEILEMANN, AND MARK McKINNON.

WAGNER, JOHN HEILEMANN, AND MARK McKINNON.

ALEX, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WENT UP TO

亞歷克斯，讓我們來談談一些人的情況吧

CAPITOL HILL.

國會山。

I KNOW THAT IN OCTOBER, YOU TALKED TO A MILITIA GROUP--

我知道在十月的時候，你和一個軍事組織談過話...

WHATEVER THAT NECESSARILY MEANS.

無論這意味著什麼。

SELF-STYLE MILITIA GROUP.

自衛隊集團。

THAT ARE CALLED THE III%.

這就是所謂的III％。

AND I UNDERSTAND SOME OF THEM WENT TO THE RIOT THAT DAY.

我知道他們中的一些人那天去參加了暴動。

WHAT DID YOU TALK AWAY FROM THAT CONVERSATION?

你從這次談話中得到了什麼啟示？

WHAT IS MOTIVATING THESE PEOPLE?

這些人的動機是什麼？

>> A SENSE OF GRAVE INJUSTICE.

>> 嚴肅的正義感。

THEY WERE SAYING IN OCTOBER IF JOE BIDEN WINS THE ELECTION IT'S

他們在十月份說如果喬-比登贏得選舉，那就會是

FRAUDULENT.

金光黨。

IF DONALD TRUMP DOES, IT'S NOT.

如果唐納德・特朗普這樣做，它不是。

THAT DEIFIES LOGIC BUT THAT WAS WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTION.

這讓人覺得很有邏輯性，但那是選舉前幾周的事了。

THEY SAID THEY WERE READY FOR THE NEXT CIVIL WAR.

他們說他們已經準備好了下一場內戰。

THERE WAS A VERY UNIFIED SENSE OF PERSON.

有一種非常統一的人的感覺。

THERE WAS URGENCY.

有急事。

THERE WAS ANGER, AND THERE WAS A SENSE OF, I WOULD SAY, MISPLACED

有憤怒，有一種感覺，我想說，誤解... ...

PATRIOTISM IN ALL OF THIS.

愛國主義在這一切。

THOSE ARE REALLY INTOXICATING THINGS, RIGHT?

這些都是真正令人陶醉的東西，對不對？

LIKE THIS GROUP OF SELF-STYLED GUYS HAD BANDED TOGETHER.

就像這群自命不凡的傢伙捆綁在一起。

THEY HAD ASSIGNED EACH OTHER QUASI-MILITARY DESIGNATIONS.

他們已經分配給對方準軍事稱號。

ONE OF THEM WAS A SERGEANT.

其中一個是中士。

ONE OF THEM WAS A GENERAL.

其中一個是將軍。

AND THERE WAS A REAL SENSEs OF BELONGING.

有一種真正的歸屬感。

AND THAT'S ACTUALLY CENTRAL TO TRUMPISM, RIGHT.

而這實際上是特朗普主義的核心，對吧。

PART OF THE REASON HE HAS BEEN SO-- IT'S BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO

他之所以如此，部分原因是...

BREAK THE FEVER OF HIS RHETORIC AND HIS-- WELL, HIS

打破他的恐懼和他的 -- 嗯，他的

ADMINISTRATION IS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TIED TO HIM IN A VERY DEEPLY

行政管理是因為人們對他有很深的感情。

EMOTIONAL, PERSONAL WAY.

情緒化、個性化的方式。

AND THAT WAS THE FEELING THEY GOT FROM THE MILITIA.

這就是他們從摩洛威亞得到的感覺。

THEY WERE EXPLICIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ARMS, WEAPONRY.

他們對軍火、武器都有詳細的說明。

THEY WERE DOING BASIC TRAINING ON THEIR OWN.

他們正在做基本的訓練對自己的。

THEY WERE PREPARING FOR INSURRECTION.

他們在為保險做準備。

AND VIOLENCE HAS BEEN SO LONG PART OF THE DONALD TRUMP D.N.A.,

暴力是唐納德・特魯姆普D.N.A.長期以來的一部分。

IT WAS REALLY A VIOLENT RHETORIC, I SHOULD SAY, THAT IT

它真的是一個暴力的RHETORIC，我應該說，它是。

WAS HARD TO DISTINGUISH, AS THE F.B.I. LATER SAID THIS WEEK,

很難區分，正如FBI本週所說的那樣

IT'S HARD TO DISTINGUISH, LIKE, THE BRAVADO OF LANGUAGE FROM THE

很難區分，比如說，語言的BRAVADO從語言的BRAVADO

INTENTION TO ACT.

行動意向：

AND IN THE AFTERMATH OF THAT INTERVIEW, I SORT OF THOUGHT, MY

而在採訪結束後，我有點想，我的。

GOD, LIKE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE SHOULD REPORT THIS TO THE F.B.I.

上帝，喜歡，你知道，也許我們應該報告這對F. B. I.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU THINK, OKAY, THEY'RE JUST SAYING

因為，你知道，一旦你覺得，好吧，他們只是說說而已。

THESE THINGS.

這些東西。

AND AS WE SEE, IT IS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS, THAT THEY HAD EVERY

正如我們看到的，這是令人痛苦的明顯，他們有每一個。

INTENTION OF CARRYING OUT A BLOODY MISSION TO OVERTHROW

意圖執行血腥的任務，推翻他們的統治

DEMOCRACY.

DEMOCRACY。

DISPLOO NOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF COMPARISONS-- A LOT OF PEOPLE

現在，有很多人在比較，很多人在比較

TALK ABOUT THE CIVIL WAR WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR

當他們談論這個特殊的問題時，就會談論南北戰爭

INSURRECTIONIST UPRISING, AND SORT OF A SHADOWY MOVEMENT

保守派的起義，以及某種程度上的暗中運動。

ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TO BE IN RESISTANCE OF THE NEW

在全美國範圍內抵制新納粹黨的活動。

GOVERNMENT.

政府：

I FIND THAT COMPARISON A LITTLE FACILE BECAUSE HOWEVER EVIL THE

我覺得這個比喻有點小題大做，因為無論多麼邪惡的人，都會有這樣的想法。

SOUTH'S INTENTIONS WERE-- WHICH WAS TO MAINTAIN AN ECONOMIC

南方的意圖是... ... 那就是保持經濟上的平衡

SYSTEM BASED UPON ENSLAVING OTHER PEOPLE-- THEY HAD A

基於對其他人的奴役的系統 -- 他們有一個。

SYSTEM, AND THEY HAD AN INTENTION.

系統，他們有一個意圖。

THIS WOULD BE AS IF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, YOU KNOW, HAD

這將是彷彿亞伯拉罕-林肯，你知道，有。

THREATENED TO TAKE AWAY THE SOUTH'S UNICORNS.

威脅要奪走南方的獨角獸。

IT IS BASED UPON A FANTASY AS OPPOSED TO A WARRING IDEA OVER

它是建立在一個幻想之上，而不是對一個戰爭的想法。

WHAT SHOULD BE THE ECONOMIC ENGINE FOR HALF OF THE COUNTRY.

什麼應該是全國一半地區的經濟引擎？

>> YEAH, WELL, LISTEN, THE SOUTH WAS ALSO STILL TIED TO THE WORLD

>> 是的，好了，聽著，南方也仍然與世界緊密相連。

OF FACTS AND REALITY.

事實與現實：

THEY MAY HAVE HAD A CORRUPT AGENDA, BUT AT THE END OF THE

他們可能有一個腐敗的議程，但在結束的時候，你會發現。

DAY, THERE WERE AGREED UPON REALITIES.

天，有約定俗成的現實。

THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN THIS.

這不是本案的情況。

THE MILITIA GROUPS-- YOU KNOW, FOX NEWS MIEFN THEIR GATEWAY

摩擦組織 -- 你知道，福克斯新聞MIEFN他們的門路。

DRUG, BUT THEY ARE EXISTING IN A WORLD OF PARANOID CONSPIRACY.

藥物，但他們是存在於一個世界 旁氏陰謀。

AND, BY THE WAY, IT HAS AFFECTED AND INFECTED MOST REPUBLICAN

而且，順便說一句，它已經影響和影響了大多數的共和國

VOTERS AT THIS POINT.

此時的投票者：

I MEAN, THERE IS REALLY AN ALTREALITY THAT THEY LIVE IN.

我的意思是，他們真的有一種超現實的生活。

>> ALEX MAKES A GREAT POINT, STEPHEN, PARTICULARLY THE

>> ALEX提出了一個很好的觀點，STEPHEN，特別是在以下方面

PATRIOTIC THREAD OF THE MADNESS.

瘋狂的愛國主義思想。

THINK ABOUT THE INVERSE CRAZINESS OF THIS.

想想這個反轉的瘋狂。

THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING ENCOURAGED BY A PRESIDENT TO

這些人是在主席的鼓勵下，才會有這樣的結果。

PRESERVE DEMOCRACY BY OVERTHROWING IT.

通過推翻民主制度來維護民主制度；

THEY ARE ACTUALLY PRESERVING DEMOCRACY BY OVERTURNING A

他們實際上是在維護民主，通過翻轉一個。

LAWFUL ELECTION AND SOMEHOW-- BELIEVE ME, THAT'S THE CODE THEY

合法選舉和某種程度上... 相信我，這就是他們的準則。

GOT AT THAT RALLY.

我去了那個集會。

THEY JUST SAID, "LISTEN, IF YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK, GO TO

他們剛剛說："聽著，如果你想讓你的國家回來，就去吧。

THE CAPITOL."

首都。"

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY THOUGHT HE MEANT WHEN HE SAID,

你認為他們認為他說的是什麼意思？

DON'T SHOW WEAKNESS."

不要表現出弱點。"

THAT'S LIKE A MOB BOSS SAYING I DIDN'T SAY PULL THE TRIGGER.

這就像一個黑幫老大說我沒說扣動扳機。

I WAS READY TO GET A PITCH FORK.

我已經準備好了，得到一個投球叉。

>> Stephen: YOU HAVE TO FIGHT LIKE YOU NEVER FOUGHT BEFORE.

>> Stephen:你必須像以前一樣戰鬥。

>> I WILL SAY THIS STEPHEN-- I FIND THINKING ABOUT IT THIS WAY

>> 我會說這個步驟 -- 我發現這樣想。

EVEN MORE DISCONCERTING.

更加令人驚愕。

IN 1995, IN APRIL OF 1995, I WOKE UP ON AN APRIL MORNING AND

1995年，1995年4月，我在一個四月的早晨醒來，然後...

HEARD THAT THE MURRAH BUILDING IN OKLAHOMA CITY HAD BEEN BLOWN

聽說奧克拉荷馬市的穆拉大樓被炸燬了。

UP AND GOT ON A PLANE AND COVERED THAT.

起來，坐上飛機，覆蓋了那。

AND TIMOTHY McVAY, AND THE FIRST TIME I HEARD THE TERM

和TIMOTHY McVAY，和我第一次聽到這個詞的時候，

MICHIGAN MILITIA WAS 25 YEARS AGO.

密歇根州的MILITIA是25年前的事。

YOU DRAW A DIRECT LINE BETWEEN THAT.

你在兩者之間畫一條直線。

THIS HAS BEEN OUT THERE IN THE DARK CORNERS OF AMERICAN

這已經在美國的黑暗角落裡出現了。

POLITICAL CULTURE FOR LAST 25 YEARS, LEAST, AND FURTHER BACK.

過去25年的政治文化，最起碼，再往後。

BUT, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP IS NOTHING BUT A MORE POTENT

但是，你知道，唐納德-特朗普不過是一個更有潛力的。

VERSION OF PAT BUCHANAN.

帕特-布坎南的版本。

AND THE FACT THAT IT'S NOW COME OUT, I RAISE IT ALL TO SAY THIS:

而事實上，它現在已經出來了，我提出這一切說。

I THINK, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP'S GOING TO BE GONE NEXT

我想，你知道，唐納德-特朗普下一秒就會離開了

WEDNESDAY, AND WE'RE EITHER GOING TO CONVICT HIM IT'S SENATE

週三，我們要麼讓他定罪，要麼讓他成為參議員。

IS EITHER GOING TO CONVICT HIM OR NOT AND HE WILL BE ABLE TO

他是否會被定罪，他是否會被定罪，他將能夠

RUN FOR OFFICE AGAIN OR NOT.

競選或不競選。

BUT NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE REALITY THAT

但這些事情都不會改變現實，即

THIS KIND OF HATRED AND THE ANTIGOVERNMENT SENTIMENTS THAT,

這種仇恨和反政府主義情緒，。

INCOHERENT THOUGH THEY ARE, THAT HAVE ANIMATED THESE PEOPLE, IT'S

雖說他們是不近人情的人，但他們把這些人動畫化了，這是

A GROWING PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AS ALEX SAID.

共和黨的一個成長部分，如阿萊克斯所說。

AND DONALD TRUMP IS THE ULTIMATE ACCELERANT FOR IT.

而唐納德-特朗普是它的最大加速器。

IN THE ABSENCE OF DONALD TRUMP IT WILL STILL BE THERE AND IT'S

在沒有唐納德-特朗普的情況下，它仍然會在那裡，它的

WHY I WORRY WE'RE ON THE PRECIPICE OF A PERIOD OF TIME IN

為什麼我擔心我們正處於一個時期的邊緣？

THE COUNTRY IN WHICH IF NOT CIVIL WAR, POLITICAL VIOLENCE IS

如果不是內戰，政治暴力的國家是什麼？

GOING BECOME AN INCREASINGLY REGULAR AND ROUTINE THING IN OUR

在我們的生活中，這將成為一個越來越經常和常規的事情。

LIVES.

生活。

>> Stephen: "THE CIRCUS" AIRS SUNDAYS ON SHOWTIME.

>> 史蒂芬: "The CIRCUS "週日在SHOWTIME播出。

ALEX WAGNER, AND WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH A

亞歷克斯-瓦格納，我們馬上就回來了，有一個。

PERFORMANCE BY THE WAR ON DRUGS.

緝毒戰爭的表現。