Anthony Fauci, Already 79 years old, he went from being an obscure public health Dr Toe, a worldwide celebrity.

安東尼-福齊，已經79歲了，他從一個默默無聞的公共衛生博士趾，變成了世界名人。

In just a few weeks, as the US and the world searched desperately for a reliable guide to the unfolding pandemic, one name came to the fore.

在短短几周內，當美國和全世界都在極力尋找一個可靠的指南來應對正在發生的大流行時，一個名字出現了。

Dr.

博士

Anthony Fauci, Dr Anthony Fauci, Dr Anthony Fauci.

Anthony Fauci，Anthony Fauci博士，Anthony Fauci博士。

Dr.

博士

Fauci was often put in a difficult position, either back some of the president's less than scientific pronouncements or criticized when the president was pressing to reopen the country.

福齊經常被置於一個困難的境地，要麼支持總統的一些不那麼科學的表態，要麼在總統催促重新開放國家的時候被責備。

Doctor Fauci struck a more cautious note.

福西醫生打了一個比較謹慎的注意。

There is a really risk that you will trigger an outbreak.

真的有可能會引發爆發。

You may not be able to control Dr Anthony Fauci to throw out the first pitch.

你可能無法控制Anthony Fauci博士投出第一球。

What irked some Republicans is that Dr Fauci seemed to enjoy his fame, although he clearly had no future in baseball.

令一些共和黨人不爽的是，福西博士似乎很享受他的名氣，雖然他在棒球界顯然沒有前途。

Any in Congress thought his accuracy early in the pandemic.

國會中的任何一個人都認為他的準確度在大流行初期。

There be no better than his pitching arm.

沒有比他的投手更好的了。

Hey loves being on television.

嘿喜歡上電視。

We let him do it Sometimes, he says, things that are a little bit off and they get built up, unfortunately, But he's a nice guy.

我們讓他去做 有時候，他說，事情有點不對勁，他們會建立起來，很不幸，但他是個好人。

I like him, but he's called a lot of it calls, he said.

我喜歡他，但他叫了很多它的電話，他說。

Don't wear a mask.

不要戴面具。

President was referring to this interview from March.

主席指的是3月的這次採訪。

Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks.

現在在美國，人們不應該帶著口罩到處走。

So Dr Fauci had Saturday on the White House, pointed out.

所以，福齊博士週六曾在白宮指出。

Other times at the start of the pandemic, when Dr Fauci had apparently made the wrong call in late February, he was advising against a lock down.

其他時間在流行病開始時，當Fauci博士顯然在2月底做出錯誤的決定時，他建議不要鎖定。

No, right now, at this moment, there is no need to change anything that you're doing on a day by day basis.

不，現在，此刻，沒有必要改變你每天所做的任何事情。

But by mid April, he seemed to suggest he'd wanted a lock down in February but had encountered resistance.

但到了4月中旬，他似乎暗示自己在2月份就想鎖定，但遇到了阻力。

If we had right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different, but there was, ah lot of pushback about shutting things down back then, According to polling, trust in Dr Fauci was very high and broadly similar between Republicans and Democrats.

如果我們從一開始就把所有的事情都關了，可能會有一點不同，但是有很多關於關停的事情，根據民調顯示，對Fauci博士的信任度非常高，共和黨和民主黨之間的信任度也大致相同。

In April of this year, 80% of Democrats on 77% of Republicans told pollsters that they had a great deal or a fair amount of trust in Dr Fauci.

今年4月，80%的民主黨人對77%的共和黨人告訴民調機構，他們對福西博士非常信任或相當信任。

But by September, a huge chasm had emerged between the two groups, while Democrat Trust had increased to 86% Republican Trust and slipped back to just 48%.

但到了9月，兩個群體之間出現了巨大的鴻溝，而民主黨信任度上升到86%的共和黨信任度，又下滑到只有48%。

Fauci is too useful to the Biden campaign.

福齊對拜登的競選活動太有用了。

So until November, Fauci's word must be law, even when it doesn't make sense.

所以在11月之前，福齊的話必須是法律，即使它沒有意義。

But one of the final Trump election rallies.

但特朗普大選的最後一次集會之一。

The crowd made their feelings clear.

眾人表明了自己的心情。

Don't tell anybody, but let me wait till a little bit.

不要告訴任何人，但讓我等一下。

After the election today, America began rolling out the fighter vaccine, the first to get it.

今天大選結束後，美國開始推出戰鬥機疫苗，這是第一個獲得疫苗的國家。

Where health workers, however, trust in the vaccine is far from universal.

然而，在衛生工作者的地方，對疫苗的信任遠遠沒有達到普遍的程度。

Part of the problem is that many Americans no longer trust the advice of public health officials like Dr Fauci, David Grossman reporting there well.

部分問題是，許多美國人不再相信公共衛生官員的建議，如Fauci博士，大衛-格羅斯曼報告有很好的。

Earlier, we spoke to Dr Anthony Fauci, and I began by asking him whether the daily death toll of 3000 Americans every day from Corona virus, which now eclipses the death toll seen in the first wave, is the peak off this crisis.

早些時候，我們採訪了安東尼-福奇博士，我首先問他，每天有3000名美國人死於電暈病毒，現在已經超過了第一波的死亡人數，是否是這場危機的高峰。

Well, I hope it does not go any more than that.

好吧，我希望它不要再多了。

We've really been hit very, very hard.

我們真的受到了非常非常大的打擊。

A Siris of circumstances took an already difficult situation and made it worse, namely, the onset of the colder weather where people are doing things indoors more than outdoors.

一個Siris的情況使本已困難的情況變得更糟，即天氣變冷，人們在室內做的事情比在室外多。

Number one number two, our Thanksgiving holiday, where people traveled and congregated, family settings of, you know, large dinners and social gatherings.

一號二號，我們的感恩節假期，人們旅行和聚會，家庭環境的，你知道，大型的晚餐和社交聚會。

And now we're entering into the Christmas Hanukkah Christmas season, which I'm quite concerned that the spike that we saw and that we're continuing to see might even amplify and get worse as we go into the Christmas holiday.

而現在我們正在進入聖誕光棍節的聖誕季，我很擔心，我們看到的和我們繼續看到的高峰可能會隨著我們進入聖誕假期甚至會放大和惡化。

So I think the month of the rest of December and into January going to be very, very difficult months for us.

所以我認為12月剩下的月份和1月對我們來說將是非常非常困難的幾個月。

Can I ask you, you've mentioned Thanksgiving?

我可以問你，你提到了感恩節嗎？

Of course.

當然了

It's a huge thing in the US, but not here.

這在美國是件大事，但在這裡不是。

What lessons would you say that gives for Christmas with people in the UK and other parts of of Europe?

你會說，給與英國和歐洲其他地區的人的聖誕節什麼教訓？

Looking forward to that time is a family time.

期待那時候是一家人的時光。

What would your advice be?

你的建議是什麼？

Yeah, my advice would be something that I think is going to sadden people because everyone wants the family warmth and get together.

是啊，我的建議會是我認為會讓人傷心的事情，因為大家都希望家庭溫暖，聚在一起。

That is so characteristic of the Christmas season.

這就是聖誕節的特點。

But my recommendation would be to curtail traveling as much as you possibly can, visiting people, even though it's such a important part of the Christmas spirit.

但我的建議是儘可能減少旅行，探訪人群，儘管它是聖誕精神的重要組成部分。

Keep the gatherings, the dinners and the indoor gatherings to as few people as possible, preferably for people that are an integral part of the household and avoid the kind of congregate settings that have been so characteristic.

聚會、晚餐和室內聚會盡量少人，最好是家庭中不可缺少的人，避免那種有特色的聚會場合。

I know that's so difficult to accept back, except because people already have what we call Covic fatigue.

我知道這很難接受回來，只是因為人們已經有了我們所說的科維奇疲勞症。

They're just tired of not leading a normal life.

他們只是厭倦了不正常的生活。

And when you're telling them in the Christmas holidays, which traditionally is the time of gathering together in the warmth of a family and friends atmosphere, we're saying to the best of your possibility, Don't do that.

而當你在聖誕節假期，傳統上是在親朋好友的溫暖氛圍中相聚的時候，你要告訴他們，我們要盡你最大的可能說，不要這樣做。

I know that's tough, but I believe that's the only way we're gonna prevent uneven greatest surge.

我知道這很難，但我相信這是我們防止不均勻的最大浪潮的唯一辦法。

Then we're already seen.

那麼我們已經被看出來了。

It's a cancel Christmas message in a facto opponent.

這是一個取消聖誕資訊的事實對手。

Yeah, in some respects, it is unfortunately when you look back, I know even quite early on you said that there were mitigations that could have been put in place sooner.

是的，在某些方面，很不幸的是，當你回首往事時，我知道甚至在相當早的時候，你就說過，有一些緩解措施可以早點到位。

I'm thinking of the springtime February, March, April.

我想的是春天的二、三、四月。

What is it that you most regret about how the U.

你最遺憾的是什麼，你怎麼會對U。

S.

S.

Went into this crisis?

進入了這場危機？

If you could change one thing.

如果你能改變一件事

What would it be?

會是什麼呢？

You know, it would be getting mawr of a uniformity of response.

你知道，這將是越來越多的統一的反應。

If you look at the various slopes that the United States experienced by slope, I mean the inflection of cases going up.

如果你看看美國經歷的各種斜坡，我說的斜坡是指案件的拐點上升。

We got hit very badly in the very early spring, mostly in the New York metropolitan area, in the northeastern corridor, when that was able to get under control and go down.

我們在很早的春天就受到了非常嚴重的打擊，主要是在紐約大都會區，在東北走廊，當時那是能夠得到控制並下降。

Then we stayed at a baseline.

然後我們停留在一個基線上。

That was really very not not acceptable at all.

這真的是非常不能接受的。

We had about 20,000 new cases a day.

我們每天有大約2萬個新案子。

It never went below that.

它從來沒有低於這個數字。

And then when we tried a so called open the country are open the economy towards the early summer, what we had was a splurge of cases that were associated with states not adhering to the recommended, cautious, prudent way of how you opened the economy.

然後當我們嘗試了所謂的開放的國家都開放的經濟走向初夏，我們有什麼是與國家不遵守推薦的，謹慎，審慎的方式，你如何開放的經濟相關的案件的飛濺。

How big a factor was the president's behavior in the spreading of this for us?

對於我們來說，總統的行為對我們的傳播有多大的影響？

You know, I think that, you know, rather than concentrate on the president's behavior, it looks at what the result was that we in the United States have 50 states.

你知道，我認為，你知道，而不是專注於總統的行為，它看的是結果是什麼，我們在美國有50個州。

It's a federalist society.

這是一個聯邦主義社會。

That independence of states is in many respects a good thing, except when you have a common problem.

國家的獨立在很多方面都是好事，除非你有共同的問題。

In recent weeks, you've had a president who seemed more interested in playing golf than than than giving strong public messages on this.

最近幾周，你們的總統似乎對打高爾夫更感興趣，而不是在這方面發出強烈的公開資訊。

Well, you know, I cannot comment on that.

好吧，你知道，我不能對此發表評論。

I'm just trying, you know how difficult that is that we're really in a very difficult situation.

我只是想，你知道這有多困難，我們真的是在一個非常困難的情況下。

We have a lot of divisiveness here in the United States.

在美國，我們有很多分歧。

We have some sections of the country who, despite the fact that there are hospitals that are on the verge of being overrun with cases and the need for MAWR healthcare providers who are trained firm or intensive care beds who still believe that this isn't really that it's a hoax, that it's not really something serious.

我們有一些部分的國家誰，儘管事實上，有醫院，是在被超負荷的情況下的邊緣和MAWR醫療服務提供者的需要誰是訓練有素的堅定或重症監護床誰仍然相信，這是不是真的，這是一個騙局，它不是真的嚴重的東西。

It's astounding to me as a position the scientists and healthcare provider to see that even in the places that are the hardest hit, they don't seem to appreciate and look at the data that staring them right in the face that we're going through a very difficult period right now.

這讓我感到震驚，作為一個科學家和醫療服務提供者的位置，看到即使是在受災最嚴重的地方，他們似乎並不欣賞和看數據，盯著他們的臉，我們正在經歷一個非常困難的時期，現在。

Do you think America's ability to recognize that and to unite around public health messages has declined during that long?

你認為美國人認識到這一點並團結在公共衛生資訊周圍的能力在這段時間內有所下降嗎？

period that 36 years you've had in that post.

期間，36年你在那個崗位上。

Yeah.

是啊。

You know what happens?

你知道會發生什麼嗎？

Uh, public health outbreaks.

呃，公共衛生爆發。

Um, pandemics are difficult enough under the best of circumstances, when you have profound divisiveness in society where you have a public health response that in some respects becomes politicized, we're wearing a mask or not becomes a political statement.

嗯，大流行病是足夠困難的 在最好的情況下，當你有深刻的分裂 在社會中，你有一個公共衛生響應 在某些方面成為政治化， 我們戴著面具或不成為一個政治聲明。

We're avoiding crowds or not becomes a political statement.

我們避開人群或不避開人群成為一種政治聲明。

It makes it extremely difficult to get one's control of what, in and of itself, even under the best of circumstances would be a challenging outbreak.

這讓人極難得到自己的控制，即使在最好的情況下，也會是一個具有挑戰性的爆發。

So in the 36 years that I have been the director of the Infectious Disease Institute and have been involved and outbreaks ranging from HIV to Zika to Ebola to pandemic flu, this has been the most difficult from the standpoint of the seriousness and the enormity of it under such a truncated period of time, but also trying to get a coordinated response.

是以，在我擔任傳染病研究所所長的36年裡，我一直在參與和爆發從艾滋病毒到寨卡病毒到埃博拉病毒到大流行性流感的各種疫情，從嚴重性和艱鉅性的角度來看，這是在如此短促的時間內最困難的一次，但同時也是試圖得到協調應對的一次。

It just is very, very difficult.

只是非常非常困難。

Now he President elect Biden is promising focus.

現在，他當選總統拜登承諾重點。

He's rolled out of policy mask wearing for the 1st 100 days.

他在第100天推出了政策性的戴面具。

Do you think he's going to make a real difference?

你覺得他真的會有所作為嗎？

I hope so.

我希望如此。

I mean, it's important that we go in the right direction and this.

我的意思是，重要的是，我們走在正確的方向，這。

I think the vaccine is going to be a very important component of that.

我認為疫苗將是其中一個非常重要的組成部分。

I think you have to give credit to the current administration with Operation Warp speed to be able to come through this with a vaccine that is highly application.

我想，你要為本屆政府的 "戰速行動 "點贊，能夠通過這種高度應用的疫苗。

So you've got to give credit where credit is due.

所以，你得把功勞歸功於自己。

I believe with the vaccine and good public health measures that a uniformly adhere to.

我相信隨著疫苗和良好的公共衛生措施，一個統一的堅持。

I believe that we will go in the right direction.

我相信，我們會朝著正確的方向發展。

We've been hearing this afternoon from our own health secretary about a new variant off the coronavirus.

我們今天下午從我們的衛生部長那裡聽到了關於冠狀病毒的新變種。

We're not quite sure whether he's referring to 614 g or one of the other mutations that have been discussed in the scientific literature.

我們不太確定他指的是614克還是科學文獻中討論過的其他突變之一。

But are you confident that vaccines like fires of beyond tech or AstraZeneca will be efficacious against these mutations we're now seeing?

但你有信心像超越科技之火或阿斯利康這樣的疫苗能有效對抗我們現在看到的這些突變嗎？

Uh, I mean, obviously one could never be overconfident.

呃，我的意思是，很明顯，一個人不可能過於自信。

But I feel from my experience with viruses over the years that when you see mutations in an R n a virus, whether or not it modifies the function very frequently, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccine.

但是我從我這麼多年對病毒的經驗來看，我覺得當你看到一個R n一個病毒發生突變的時候，不管它修改功能的頻率是不是很高，跟疫苗的療效是沒有關係的。

For example, the 614 d D G mutation is one that, in fact, when you look at the binding site of the antibodies that are made from the vaccine, it doesn't look at all like it's going to negatively impact the efficacy of the vaccine.

比如614 d D G突變，其實，你看疫苗製成的抗體的結合位點，完全不像是會對疫苗的療效產生負面影響。

If another the mutation comes along, we'll see what happens with it.

如果另一個突變出現了，我們就會看到它發生了什麼。

But thus far, we've not had any serious challenge to the advocacy of a vaccine based on mutations that occur in an already virus.

但到目前為止，我們還沒有遇到過任何嚴重的挑戰，主張根據已經病毒發生的突變來研製疫苗。

Lastly, you made some comment before about the UK moving ahead with licensing of off the fires of beyond tech vaccine, which you then withdrew and you corrected those remarks.

最後，你之前做了一些評論，說英國在推進超越科技疫苗的火種許可，你後來又收回了，你糾正了這些言論。

But I just wanted to ask you about the AstraZeneca virus, the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine, a bigger pardon, which the UK hopes to put through before the end of the year and give regulatory approval to what's the U.

但我只想問你關於阿斯利康病毒的問題，牛津阿斯利康疫苗，一個更大的赦免，英國希望在年底前通過，並給予監管部門準許，這是美國。

S.

S.

Position on that?

這方面的立場？

Have you have you got a good sense that it is ready to be rolled out as well?

你有沒有感覺到它也可以推出了？

Well, we have a face retrial with the A Z product right here in the United States that is accruing very well, and we will get an answer based on a full dose prime, followed by a full dose boost.

好吧，我們在美國就有一個A Z產品的面複試，累積的效果非常好，我們會在全劑量首發的基礎上得到一個答案，然後再進行全劑量的提升。

You know, the situation of the UK?

你知道，英國的情況嗎？

They started off with a half dose, followed by a full dose.

他們先是半劑量，然後是全劑量。

And then when they did the comparisons, they had an unusual finding which still is not explainable.

然後他們做對比的時候，有一個不尋常的發現，還是無法解釋。

Why half those followed by a full dose, you know, gave a better response than a full dose, followed by a full dose.

為什麼有一半的人跟著全劑量，你知道的，比全劑量的人，跟著全劑量的人給了更好的反應。

So I think I'm just gonna hold back on any judgment on that until we get the full faith retrial that's done here in the United States on the same product Dr.

所以，我想我只是要去迴避 在任何判斷上，直到我們得到的充分信任重審 在這裡做在美國相同的產品博士。

Anthony found she Thank you so much for joining us on Newsnight.

安東尼發現她非常感謝你加入我們的新聞之夜。

My pleasure.

我的榮幸。

Good to be with you.

很高興能和你在一起