Name: 鮑里斯-約翰遜能挽救 "脫歐 "後的貿易協議嗎？- BBC新聞之夜 (Can Boris Johnson salvage a post-Brexit trade deal? - BBC Newsnight)
Uploaded: 2020-12-08T18:15:47.000Z
Duration: 13 min 42 s

24 days to go until the end of transition tonight.

距離今晚過渡期結束還有24天。

Still no trade deal, no sign of breakthrough.

還是沒有達成交易，沒有突破的跡象。

But for those seeking optimism, there is the promise of a face to face meeting between the PM and the EU Commission president.

但對於那些尋求樂觀的人來說，總理和歐盟委員會主席之間的面對面會談是有希望的。

The idea that the key leaders would meet if there was no chance whatsoever is an odd one.

如果沒有任何機會的話，主要上司就會開會，這個想法很奇怪。

Perhaps the meeting suggests they're closer than they're actually telling us.

也許這次會面表明他們的關係比他們實際告訴我們的要親密。

Or perhaps not tonight, the PM master's team to give him an overview of the problems.

或者說，今晚或許不會，PM大師的團隊給他介紹一下問題。

We'll we'll be looking at the economic and political implications both here on Din Europe in a moment.

我們稍後將在鼎歐網探討其經濟和政治影響。

But we start with the day's events on Nick.

但我們先從今天尼克的事件說起。

今天到現在為止怎麼樣，尼克？

In the last few hours, MPs have voted to put back into the UK Internal market Bill those controversial clauses relating to Northern Ireland of the withdrawal agreement.

在過去的幾個小時裡，議員們投票決定將退歐協議中那些與北愛爾蘭有關的爭議性條款重新納入英國內部市場法案。

Those are the ones that would, in the words of the UK, lead to a limited and specified breach off international law.

用聯合王國的話說，這些都是會導致有限的和特定的違反國際法的行為。

Now the U is very relaxed about that because the UK government said them to them today.

現在U國對此非常放鬆，因為英國政府今天對他們說。

If we get a free trade agreement with you, then we will let those clauses laps now on that free trade agreement.

如果我們和你們達成了自由貿易協定，那麼我們就會讓這些條款在自由貿易協定上現在就失效。

I do have to say it is pretty gloomy on both sides of the UK side, saying No progress in the last few days, significant differences and they're saying we feel very gloomy about this.

我確實不得不說，英國這邊兩邊都很陰暗，說這幾天沒有進展，重大的分歧，他們說我們覺得很陰暗。

Interestingly, Boris Johnson has been keeping in close touch, updating Brexit veterans, and they say to me they are very confident that the prime minister is not going to breach any off his red lines on sovereignty.

有趣的是，鮑里斯-約翰遜一直保持著密切的聯繫，更新了Brexit老兵，他們對我說，他們非常有信心，首相不會違反任何關閉他的主權紅線。

On one of those veterans said to me, Look, every five minutes they think it's going to be a deal on then they think it's going to be no deal.

其中一個老兵對我說，你看，每隔五分鐘，他們就認為要成交了，然後他們就認為要不成交了。

But this veterans current thinking is it is no deal.

但這位老兵目前的想法是，這是沒有辦法的事。

But I do have to say I speaking toe a minister who is pretty closely involved in this, and they said to me they do not believe that Boris Johnson would be traveling in person to Brussels to meet Ursula von der Leyen if he thought it was alehouse hopeless and they drew a parallel with the meeting that took place last year between Boris Johnson and then the.

但我不得不說，我說到一個部長誰是相當密切參與了這一點，他們對我說，他們不相信鮑里斯-約翰遜會親自前往布魯塞爾會見烏蘇拉-馮德萊恩，如果他認為這是一個lelehouse無望，他們畫了一個平行於去年鮑里斯-約翰遜和然後之間的會議。

Then he shook Leo, Va Radka in the northwest.

然後他在西北方向搖了搖獅子座、瓦拉德卡。

They were picture together on this minister said to me, David Frost, the chief negotiator.

他們在一起的照片上這位部長對我說，大衛-弗羅斯特，首席談判代表。

He recommended that meeting and he's recommended this meeting so he knows what the optics of that picture will look like.

他推薦了那次會議，他也推薦了這次會議，所以他知道那張照片的光學效果會是怎樣的。

But obviously it could still not be a deal.

What is your sense of reaction from Brussels tonight?

你對今晚布魯塞爾的反應有何感想？

Well, they are not happy, and it's interesting.

I understand that some EU ambassadors who were briefed by Michelle Barnier, the ease chief negotiator, this morning, they were very, very struck about how downbeat he looked on agreements in a sense between the EU and the UK that no agreement on the three key areas.

據我瞭解，一些歐盟大使今天上午聽取了緩和首席談判代表米歇爾-巴尼耶的簡報，他們非常非常震驚，他對歐盟和英國之間的協議看得多麼淡定，在三個關鍵領域沒有達成協議。

That's the so called level playing fields, which is, can you find common standards?

這就是所謂的公平競爭環境，也就是你能找到共同的標準嗎？

And it's the sort of the governance around all of that.

而這就是圍繞著這一切的治理。

Now, the you what I'm hearing from Brussels, they're saying to the UK is we've got the memo.

現在，你我從布魯塞爾聽到的， 他們對英國說，我們已經得到了備忘錄。

We understand the importance off you taking back, retaining and respecting sovereignty, but they then say if you the UK taken absolutist view of that sovereignty that will lead you to no deal, Nick.

我們明白你們收回、保留和尊重主權的重要性 但他們說如果你們英國對主權持絕對化的觀點 就會導致你們無法達成協議 尼克

Well, we ask the government to come on tonight.

Daniel Hannan advises the government on trade and Telegraph Columnist on By Philip Rycroft to until last year was permanent secretary at the department for exiting the European Union.

丹尼爾-漢南在貿易和電報專欄作家上為政府提供建議，由菲利普-萊克羅夫特到直到去年是脫歐部門的常任祕書。

And I guess we know already these clear outlines off where the disagreements are.

我想我們已經知道這些清晰的輪廓了，分歧在哪裡。

Well, where is the landing zone that they can find presumably on Wednesday?

好吧，他們能在週三找到大概的降落區在哪裡？

It is worth remembering that these negotiations have been going on has been a for a long time now.

值得一提的是，這些談判已經進行了很長時間。

And there's an awful lot of stuff that will have been pinned down, perhaps 95% off a trade deal.

而且有很多東西都會被壓下來，也許是交易交易的95折。

Sorted out teams working on legal texts have that ready for legal translation and all the rest of it.

整理出的法律文本工作團隊已經準備好了法律翻譯和其他所有的工作。

What said you've got the three outstanding issues.

什麼說你有三個未解決的問題。

How much access Thio UK waters to the quota and UK waters?

Thio英國水域的配額和英國水域的訪問量有多大？

Should there be these things can be sorted out if there is a will.

如果有遺囑的話，應該有這些事情可以解決。

The more difficult issues are the points of principle sovereignty from the UK side in terms of the ability to set our own rules from the U perspective, it's protecting the integrity of the single market from what they would see is potentially unfair competition from U K based businesses.

更困難的問題是英國方面的原則主權點，從U的角度來看，我們有能力制定自己的規則，這是保護單一市場的完整性，不受他們會認為是來自U K企業的潛在不公平競爭。

So just to get you to the end of that point, we know where the differences are.

所以說，只要把這個問題說到最後，我們就知道差別在哪裡了。

But where do you think is the actual where do you see the compromise coming?

但你認為實際的哪裡是你看到的妥協的地方？

Because presumably they wouldn't they wouldn't be having this meeting Wednesday.

因為他們大概不會... ...他們就不會在週三開這個會了。

Also, if if there wasn't some bit where there was compromised.

另外，如果不是有一些位在那裡妥協了。

Sure, I think the UK has to be able to demonstrate on the level playing field issues, particularly on state aid, which is the biggest sticking point there, that it has an independent regulator in the UK to manage state aid within a framework of rules within within the UK I think the EU side has got to accept that it cannot insist that the UK has to follow every change in U rules over time.

當然，我認為英國必須能夠證明在公平競爭環境問題上，特別是在國家援助問題上，這是最大的癥結所在，它在英國有一個獨立的監管機構，在英國內部的規則框架內管理國家援助，我認為歐盟方面必須接受，它不能堅持英國必須長期遵循U規則的每一個變化。

Somewhere in between those two positions, it seems to me there is a potential answer.

在我看來，在這兩種立場之間，似乎有一個潛在的答案。

Dan, does that sound pretty much right to you?

Is that a concession that you could see our government making well on fisheries?

這是你能看到我們政府在漁業上做出的很好的讓步嗎？

I mean that the issue is sovereignty, Andi.

我的意思是，問題是主權，安迪。

Once that's respected, of course we could be flexible about numbers and quotas and time scales.

一旦尊重了這一點，當然我們可以靈活處理人數和配額以及時間尺度。

I think the bigger issue is the question of whether Britain is really an independent, equal partner and neighbor of the.

我認為更大的問題是英國是否真的是一個獨立、平等的夥伴和鄰居的問題。

I think this is an emotional rather than an economic question for Brussels.

我認為這對布魯塞爾來說是一個情感問題而不是經濟問題。

I think there's a new element in Brussels that is still affronted by the fact of the referendum.

我認為布魯塞爾有一個新的元素，仍然被公投的事實所侮辱。

Andi sees Brexiters as Michelle Barnier once said Aziz, needing to teach us a lesson on still basically regards.

安迪看到的布雷克特人正如米歇爾-巴尼耶曾經說過的阿齊茲，需要給我們上一課的基本上還是視。

Britain is a kind of recalcitrant province, which is why it's not prepared to do the kind of basic trade deal with us that it has done with other countries we're now doing with other countries.

英國是一種頑固的省份，這就是為什麼它不準備與我們做那種基本的貿易協議，就像我們現在與其他國家做的那樣。

It's not really about state aid, which is much lower here than in Europe or following you social and environmental standards.

這其實不是國家援助的問題，這裡的國家援助比歐洲低得多，也不是按照你們的社會和環境標準。

Again, our domestic standards are way, way higher than what are required is a minimum by you.

同樣，我們國內的標準比你們要求的要高很多很多，是一個最低限度的標準。

I think it's more this this reluctance completely to let go.

我覺得更多的是這個這個不願意完全放手。

Some sues, aren t and it's gonna last for ages.

有些訴訟，不是，它會持續很久。

We've got, isn't it just Isn't it much simpler, much more practical for the EU than that?

我們已經有了，是不是對歐盟來說，是不是比這更簡單，更實用？

They just don't want a competitors, er right on their doorstep?

他們只是不想讓競爭對手，呃，就在他們家門口？

Well, you'll remember that when Theresa May offered a deal that would have found us very, very closely toe all you technical standards not just ecological and employment laws but aleck nickel standards that was put forward at the Salzburg Summit, and it was thrown back in her face and Michelle Barnier went around brandishing this graph.

你還記得，當特雷莎-梅提出了一個協議，會發現我們非常非常接近你們所有的技術標準，不僅僅是生態和就業法律，而是在薩爾茨堡峰會上提出的阿勒克鎳標準，這被她甩到了後面，米歇爾-巴尼耶到處揮舞著這張圖表。

You'll remember it with a staircase showing that the only option if we were leaving was toe have a straightforward Canada style trade deal.

你會記得它的樓梯顯示，如果我們要離開，唯一的選擇就是直接達成加拿大式的貿易協議。

Of course, the moment that Boris took him at his word and said, All right, that's what we'll do.

當然，當鮑里斯對他言聽計從，說：好吧，我們就這麼辦。

The offer was snatched away and all sorts of last minute problems were put in the way.

報價被搶走了，最後關頭又被各種問題擋住了。

And that's why I think, really the question is whether the you can accept the fact emotionally as well as technically a Frexit.

這就是為什麼我認為，真正的問題是，你是否能在情感上接受這個事實，以及在技術上接受Frexit。

I mean, I think Canada is, you know, is a bit of a red herring because it doesn't include financial services there.

我的意思是，我認為加拿大是，你知道，是一個有點紅鯡魚，因為它不包括金融服務有。

I don't know 1/10 of what we do with the EU.

But do you accept that, Philip, that there is this sort of punishment element?

但你接受嗎，菲利普， 有這種懲罰的元素？

There's always been true, I think, from the off that the EU member states and you concerned that it didn't look as though the UK could get a better deal outside of the EU than it had as a member state on.

一直以來都是如此，我想，從一開始，歐盟成員國和你關心的是，看起來英國在歐盟之外不能得到比作為成員國更好的待遇，在。

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鮑里斯-約翰遜能挽救 "脫歐 "後的貿易協議嗎？- BBC新聞之夜 (Can Boris Johnson salvage a post-Brexit trade deal? - BBC Newsnight)

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