between a former debating world champion and a computer.

一個前辯論世界冠軍和一臺電腦之間。

- So many people are here working on this production.

- 這麼多人都在這裡工作，這個作品。

- Many of the previous demonstrations that we have

- 我們之前的許多示範

seen were the realm of games.

看到的是遊戲的領域。

And games have very well defined set of rules.

而遊戲有非常明確的一套規則。

- You could do simple things like play games,

- 你可以做一些簡單的事情，比如玩遊戲。

but you couldn't do complex things

但你不會做複雜的事情

like having a debate.

就像進行一場辯論。

- There is so many things that are connected

- 有很多事情是相通的

together and so many things need to work smoothly.

一起，很多事情都需要順利進行。

I am actually a bit stressed.

其實我是有點壓力的。

I feel the team didn't have enough time to practice.

我覺得球隊沒有足夠的時間去練習。

- So I have to ask you,

- 所以我得問你。

who do you thinks going to win tonight?

你認為誰會贏得今晚？

- Well I'm partial today of course.

- 好吧，我今天當然是偏心了。

What we really want is to create systems that

我們真正想要的是創建系統，以

work with us so that we can make better decisions.

與我們合作，以便我們能夠做出更好的決定。

- Ladies and gentlemen, here we go, Project Debater.

- 女士們，先生們，我們開始了，辯論者計劃。

- Greetings, Harish.

- 你好，哈里什

I suspect you've never debated a machine.

我懷疑你從來沒有和機器辯論過。

Welcome to the future.

歡迎來到未來。

- I started my amateur debating career back in high school.

- 早在高中時，我就開始了我的業餘辯論生涯。

The teacher for history made the mistake of returning

歷史老師犯了錯誤，回

the exams and saying if you want to appeal

考試，並說如果你想上訴

about your score, I'm willing to hear your thoughts.

關於你的分數，我願意聽聽你的想法。

And obviously nobody seriously considered to do

顯然沒有人認真考慮過要做

that except me.

那除了我。

Okay I understand if you think that this is my score.

好吧，如果你認為這是我的分數，我理解。

I have a different view.

我有不同的看法。

Let's argue about that, in writing.

讓我們來爭論這個問題，以書面形式。

Later on I started to think about writing,

後來，我開始思考寫作的問題。

you know comedy sketches.

你知道喜劇小品。

I started to develop a sitcom called Puzzle.

我開始開發一個叫 "拼圖 "的情景喜劇。

Oddly enough, the final episode of that sitcom

奇怪的是，那部情景喜劇的最後一集。

is entirely focused on competitive debates.

完全集中在競爭性辯論上。

They filmed 16 episodes

他們拍攝了16集

and it was a complete failure.

而這是一個徹底的失敗。

This is how I found myself doing computer science

我就是這樣發現自己在做計算機科學

and artificial intelligence.

和人工智能。

- For centuries, people have always saw the games

- 幾個世紀以來，人們總是把遊戲看作是

as a great way to measure your intelligence.

作為衡量你智力的一個好方法。

When I play chess, I want to prove to myself I'm

當我下棋時，我想證明我是個好人

smarter than the other side.

比對方更聰明。

If you take the position that you have to hand code

如果你的立場是，你必須用手寫代碼。

a rule for every situation,

一條規則適用於各種情況。

it is insanely hard.

它是瘋狂的硬。

What we now do is you give them examples,

我們現在要做的就是你給他們舉例。

and they'll learn from those examples

他們會從這些例子中學習

and make their own rules compared to having to craft

並制定自己的規則，相比之下，必須精心製作

all the rules by hand.

所有的規則都是手寫的。

- Games have been important for AI but games

- 遊戲對人工智能一直很重要，但遊戲

differ from debate because the classical game is a set

與辯論不同的是，經典的遊戲是一個集

of equations that's fully understood.

的方程，是完全可以理解的。

You can draw the rules of chance.

你可以畫出偶然的規則。

You cannot draw the

你不能畫

rules of conversation, that's impossible.

談話規則，這是不可能的。

- Just a couple of days after the Jeopardy! event,

- 就在 "危險 "事件後的幾天。

an email was sent to the entire research division

向整個研究部發送了一封郵件

asking us what should be the next era grand challenge.

問我們下一個時代的大挑戰應該是什麼。

I was intrigued so I offered my office mate

我很感興趣，所以我向我的辦公室夥伴提供了

at the time to spend an hour and brainstorm together.

在時間花一個小時，一起頭腦風暴。

And towards the end of the hour at some point

而到了最後一個小時的某個時刻

I suggested this notion of developing a machine

我提出了這個開發機器的概念

that will be able to debate humans.

將能與人類辯論的。

So we submitted the proposal in a single slide.

所以我們用一張幻燈片提交了提案。

They told us this is impossible and this is not

他們告訴我們，這是不可能的，這不是

a very good plan.

一個非常好的計劃。

- I think this is a characteristic of a grand challenge

- 我想這是一個大挑戰的特徵

because if it is very clear to you that this is doable,

因為如果你很清楚，這個是可以做到的。

then probably this is not a grand challenge.

那麼可能這並不是一個盛大的挑戰。

And if it is very clear to you that this is not doable,

而如果你很清楚，這是不可能的。

then probably you shouldn't start.

那麼可能你就不應該開始。

It should be somewhere in between but you need to take

應該是介於兩者之間，但你需要採取

into consideration that perhaps you will fail.

考慮到也許你會失敗。

- I didn't hear anything for a few months.

- 幾個月來，我沒有任何消息。

Then, February 2012, Hayah Sofail

然後，2012年2月，Hayah Sofail。

used this chat service in IBM to text me.

用IBM的這個哈拉服務給我發簡訊。

And she said, "Did you hear?"

她說："你聽到了嗎？"

And I said, "No, what?"

我說，"不，什麼？"

And she said, "It was selected, Debater was selected

她說："被選中了，Debater被選中了。

as the next grand challenge."

作為下一個大的挑戰"。

I was very excited and I wrote her back,

我很激動，我給她回了信。

"I want to thank you for all the support along the way."

"我要感謝你們一路上的支持。"

And she said, "Don't thank me yet."

她說："先別謝我。"

(laughs)

（笑）

- I'm Harish Natarajan,

- 我是Harish Natarajan,

and my debating record is that I won the

而我的辯論記錄是，我贏得了。

European Championships in 2012,

2012年歐錦賽。

the Oxford Intervarsity and the Cambridge Intervarsity.

牛津大學國際學院和劍橋大學國際學院。

I've twice won the largest open tournament in the world,

我已經兩次贏得了世界上最大的公開賽。

the LSE Open.

LSE公開賽。

And certainly, even if I'm not necessarily the best

當然，即使我不一定是最好的。

debater in the world, I'll certainly be very

辯手，我一定會很。

high up most people's list.

在大多數人的名單上，高。

What I think debating forces you to do is you just

我認為辯論迫使你做的是，你只是。

have to defend and justify your own opinions,

不得不為自己的觀點辯護和辯解。

but defend and justify often the very opposite

卻往往反其道而行之

opinions as well.

意見以及。

And I think that process is so valuable because I think

我認為這個過程是非常有價值的，因為我認為。

it makes us interrogate the beliefs and the views

它讓我們審視自己的信仰和觀點。

which we hold.

我們持有的。

- One of the things that happens when you take a grand

- 其中一件事是，當你採取一個盛大的。

challenge is that you have to slice it up

挑戰在於，你必須把它切開

into questions that each of them is less grand.

成的問題，他們每個人都不太隆重。

From the beginning, one thing you would need

從一開始，你就需要一件事

is a massive collection of newspaper and journal articles

是大量報紙和期刊文章的集合

on the order of 10 billion sentences.

在100億句的數量級。

- Then the Debater system needed capability of being

- 那麼，Debater系統需要有能力成為

able to automatically identify the exact boundaries

能夠自動識別準確的邊界

of the claim within the billions of sentences.

的說法，在億萬句內。

- And figure out if those arguments are supporting your

- 並找出這些論點是否支持你的。

side of the debate or the other side.

辯論的一方或另一方。

- This is something that is very easy for humans to do

- 這是人類很容易做到的事情

based on our knowledge about concepts in the world.

基於我們對世界概念的認識。

And it is very complicated for machines to do.

而對於機器來說，它是非常複雜的。

Now you need to arrange a meaningful narrative.

現在你需要安排一個有意義的敘述。

- After the opening statement, now there's rebuttal speech.

- 開場白之後，現在是反駁發言。

- This is being able to listen to an opponent

- 這就是能夠聽從對手的意見。

and respond accordingly.

並作出相應的反應。

- Those were the main challenges that we had

- 這些都是我們面臨的主要挑戰

in front of us.

在我們面前。

- And if one of these steps is not working properly,

- 而如果其中有一個步驟不能正常工作。

you will end up with a useless speech.

你會得到一個無用的演講。

After we were selected, it was very hard for us

我們被選中後，很不容易啊

to make significant progress.

以取得重大進展。

Only four months after we started to work,

我們開始工作才四個月。

for the topic physical education should

體育教育專題應

be mandatory in high school,

是高中的必修課。

the Debater system detects the following

辯論賽系統檢測到以下情況

claim in Wikipedia:

維基百科中的說法。

"Several studies have shown that lizards display

"一些研究表明，蜥蜴表現出了

no benefit from exercise."

鍛鍊沒有好處"。

This is going to sound ridiculous, okay?

這聽起來很荒謬，好嗎？

They're going to ask us about physical exercise,

他們會問我們關於體育鍛煉的情況。

whether this should be mandatory or not,

是否應該是強制性的；

and how are we going to understand that these claims

我們又如何理解這些說法？

are actually referring to lizards and not to

其實是指蜥蜴，而不是指

high school students?

高中生？

It will be very hard to get even close to a meaningful

要想接近一個有意義的，將是非常困難的。

debate between this system and an expert human debater.

本系統與人類專家辯手之間的辯論。

- First time I heard about Project Debater was

- 我第一次聽說辯論者計劃是

one of those small articles probably back in 2014

其中的一篇小文章大概是在2014年

where they talked about this Debating Watson Project.

在那裡，他們談到了這個辯論沃森項目。

And at the time it certainly seemed like a pipe dream.

而在當時看來，這無疑是天方夜譚。

Humans are rarely just convinced by evidence

人類很少只是被證據說服

and logical rational argument.

和邏輯上的理性論證。

It's about really connecting with them in one

這是關於真正與他們聯繫在一起。

of many different ways, some of which

的許多不同方式，其中一些

aren't as rational as others.

並不像其他人那樣理性。

- What I do is I coach debaters and I tell them

- 我所做的就是指導辯手們，告訴他們

this is what you need to do in order to improve.

這是你需要做的，以提高。

And usually a human debater, it just kind of,

而通常情況下，一個人的辯手，它只是一種。

their brain understands what I'm saying

心領神會

and they can convert that into being a better debater.

而他們可以把這一點轉化為更好的辯手。

Sometimes not, but usually.

有時不是，但通常。

And in this case, I am saying it to the programmers

而在這種情況下，我是對程序員說的。

and they're saying okay how do we take that learning

他們說，好吧，我們如何採取的學習。

process that happens inside people's heads and convert

腦子裡發生的過程，並將其轉換成

that into some sort of algorithm?

變成某種算法？

And that's really where the magic happens.

而這才是真正的奇蹟發生的地方。

- It seems to me that this is a motion that basically

- 在我看來，這項議案基本上是......

for the government it's impossible to defend.

對於政府來說，這是不可能防禦的。

- Well you can agree in general that you'd defend,

- 好吧，你可以大體上同意你會辯護。

like any negative aspects to begin with.

像任何負面的方面開始。

- What I'm saying is that if you will debate me,

- 我想說的是，如果你願意和我辯論。

not as an expert debater, I will make this point.

我不是作為一個辯論專家，我會提出這個觀點。

Is there an answer to that?

有答案嗎？

- Being able to show to the world that you can

- 能夠向世界展示，你可以。

take a computer program and teach it not just to

掌握計算機程序，並不只是教給

play a game that has very specific set of rules

打譜子

and very specific ways of winning but something

和非常具體的獲勝方式，但一些

that is so,

是這樣

so difficult for humans to learn and so subjective in how

對人類來說是如此的難以學習，也是如此的主觀，在如何

you see it and how you hear arguments and how

你看到的，你聽到的論點，以及你如何。

you respond to arguments.

你迴應爭論。

I think that that's, it's incredible.

我認為，這是，這是不可思議的。

When I joined the team, it was not at a level

當我加入這個團隊的時候，它還沒有達到一個水準。

where it would be competitive.

在那裡，它將是有競爭力的。

- My automatic analysis indicates that Yara

- 我的自動分析表明，亞拉

suggested that the abolition of the entire

建議廢除整個

fossil fuel field is going to create and the traumatic

化石燃料領域將產生的創傷性

effects of that and lastly,

的影響，最後。

however considering relevant data suggests some information

然而，考慮到相關數據表明，一些資訊

that may contradict this claim.

可能與這一說法相矛盾的。

- I first heard about IBM Debater because they were

- 我第一次聽說IBM Debater是因為他們是

asking for volunteers to record speeches for them.

要求志願者為他們錄製演講稿。

Basically, they wanted to build up this database

基本上，他們想建立這個數據庫。

of speeches from people with a lot of debating

辯才輩出的演講稿

experience and then train the computer

經驗，然後再進行計算機培訓

using that database.

使用該數據庫。

- I think at first, Project Debater would sometimes

- 我想一開始，Project Debater有時會

give arguments that weren't necessarily for its side.

給出的論據，不一定是為其一方。

- Such mandatory minimum sentences

- 這種強制性最低刑期

lead to overcrowded prisons and rightfully so.

導致監獄人滿為患，這是理所當然的。

These were the main points I wanted to raise.

這些是我想提出的主要觀點。

- The types of arguments, the connections between arguments,

- 論點的類型，論點之間的聯繫。

the way that we sometimes tell jokes

說笑的方式

or sometimes we're more serious,

或有時我們更嚴重。

those are all things that they

這些都是他們

pulled in for Project Debater.

被拉進了 "辯論者計劃"。

- I often compare Project Debater to my kids and

- 我經常把Project Debater和我的孩子們做比較。

their development because I guess my oldest

他們的發展，因為我想我最大的

was born about the same time the program was born.

大約是在程序誕生的同時誕生的。

In terms of personality,

在個性方面。

they'd be I guess on par.

他們會是我猜測的平等。

My seven year old has a great personality,

我七歲的孩子性格很好。

they do develop that quite early.

他們確實很早就發展起來了。

It's scary but also nice to see that Project Debater

雖然很可怕，但也很高興看到 "辯論者計劃

is developing a personality as well.

也在發展個性。

- I don't know whether to call my opponent naive,

- 我不知道該不該說我的對手天真。

old fashioned or just a romantic.

老式的或只是一個浪漫的。

But this way or that, my opponent is wrong.

但這樣或那樣，我的對手是錯的。

- I remember the Debater, she called him naive

- 我記得那個辯手，她說他太天真了

and it was really hurt.

而且真的很受傷。

Suddenly he's laughed at not only by a machine,

突然間，他不僅被機器嘲笑了。

but the audience are now bursting out laughing.

但觀眾們現在卻笑得前仰後合。

My name is Assaf Gavron,

我叫阿薩夫-加夫隆,

I'm an author most of the days.

我大部分時間都是作者。

I'm in charge of writing what we call generic texts.

我負責寫我們所說的通用文本。

Little bits and little phrases that are put together

一點一滴的小片段和小短語，是放在一起的。

by the software.

由軟件。

Metaphors or quotes, opening sentences, jokes.

比喻或引用，開場白，笑話。

We had a lot of discussions about who is Debater?

我們討論了很多關於誰是Debater？

- My friend, you are speaking at the extremely

- 我的朋友，你說的是非常

fast rate of 203 words per minute.

每分鐘203個字的快速度。

Don't hurry, we have plenty of time.

別急，我們有的是時間。

Please slow down and present your arguments calmly.

請放慢腳步，冷靜地提出你的論點。

- We never write the texts to a specific debate.

- 我們從來沒有為某一特定的辯論而撰寫文本。

We don't know what the debate will be.

我們不知道辯論會是什麼。

No, the magic of Debater is that it can argue on

不，Debater的神奇之處在於，它可以在以下方面進行辯論

any topic thrown at it under the sun.

陽光下的任何話題。

So we write a general text that could fit

所以我們寫一篇一般的文字，可以適合

some topics and then the system has to identify them

一些主題，然後系統要對它們進行識別。

and use the right ones in the right time.

並在合適的時間使用合適的。

- Climate change is what allows them to poison the minds

- 氣候變化是讓他們毒害人心的原因。

of young kids.

的年輕孩子。

- Science, we know the earth is warming.

- 科學，我們知道地球正在變暖。

Will there be more droughts?

會不會有更多的旱災？

Yes.