Also speaking just a short while ago, Let's have a listen.

剛才也講了，我們來聽聽。

This is a fraud on the American public.

這是對美國公眾的欺詐。

This'd is an embarrassment to our country.

這是我們國家的恥辱。

We were getting ready to win this election.

我們已經準備好贏得這次選舉。

Frankly, we did win this election.

坦率地說，我們確實贏得了這次選舉。

Eso We'll be going to the U.

埃索我們會去U。

S Supreme Court.

最高法院。

We want all voting to stop.

我們希望所有的投票都停止。

We don't want them to find any ballots at four o'clock in the morning and add them to the list.

我們不希望他們在凌晨四點鐘發現任何選票，並將其添加到名單中。

Okay.

好吧，我知道了

And Trump's claims of fraud have drawn strong condemnations, including from some in his own party, including Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who easily won re election.

而特朗普聲稱的欺詐行為也引起了強烈的譴責，包括自己黨內的一些人，包括輕鬆贏得重新選舉的共和黨議員亞當-金辛格。

On Tuesday, he criticized the president in a sharp word and tweet, saying, Stop, full stop.

週二，他用犀利的言辭和推特責備總統說，停，全面停。

The votes will be counted and you will either win or lose, and America will accept that patience is a virtue.

選票會被計算出來，你不是贏就是輸，美國會接受耐心是一種美德。

Let's get more on that in the state of the race.

讓我們在比賽的狀態下再來了解一下。

We're joined here in the studio by Professor Philip Ayyoub, an international diplomacy expert and US political expert.

現在我們在演播室裡請到了國際外交專家、美國政治專家菲利普-阿尤佈教授。

Welcome to the program, DWS Richard Walker is with us.

歡迎來到節目，DWS理查德-沃克和我們在一起。

Richard is our chief international editor, and Richard, I'd like to turn to you and first asked for your reaction to what we just heard the US president saying, Also your reaction to the results that, um, Michael has been presenting.

理查德是我們的國際主編，理查德，我想轉向你，首先問你對我們剛才聽到的美國總統說的話的反應，還有你對邁克爾所介紹的結果的反應，嗯，邁克爾一直在介紹。

If you look at both of those messages, it appears it appears as if the Republicans might be busting through that blue wall.

如果你看這兩條消息，似乎似乎共和黨人可能會衝破那道藍牆。

Those key states of Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan.

那些關鍵的賓夕法尼亞州、威斯康星州、密歇根州。

Um, can we assume that, or is it still too early?

嗯，我們可以假設，還是太早了？

Oh, it's it's far too early to say.

哦，現在說這些還為時過早。

I mean, those crucial states that we've been talking about a lot tonight really do seem toe hold the key to this election.

我的意思是，我們今晚一直在談論的那些關鍵的州 似乎真的是這次選舉的關鍵。

And what makes it particularly, um, particularly kind of tense situation?

是什麼讓它特別，嗯，特別是一種緊張的局面？

Um, is that Ah, the voting.

嗯，是啊，投票。

Ah, lot of the voting, particularly on the Democratic side, it is assumed, took place in the form of early voting in the weeks leading up to the election, even either by post or in person, Andi Donald Trump here is essentially trying to stop the vote counts in those states because he sees that in the vote tally on the day it looks like he's ahead.

啊，很多投票，特別是民主黨方面的投票，據推測，在選舉前幾周以提前投票的形式進行，甚至通過郵寄或親自投票，安迪唐納德-特朗普在這裡基本上是試圖阻止這些州的選票統計，因為他看到在當天的選票統計中，看起來他是領先的。

But those states all have a process where they only start counting those early votes on the election day as well, so there's a huge amount of counting to get through.

但這些州都有一個流程，他們也是在選舉日才開始統計這些提前的選票，所以有大量的統計工作要做。

It could be a day, two days, three days, even before we have a result there.

可能是一天、兩天、三天，甚至在我們那裡還沒有一個結果。

Andi.

安迪

I mean, I think that there are two really striking things that we just heard from the statement there from Donald Trump where he said on the one had.

我的意思是，我認為有兩個非常引人注目的事情，我們剛剛從唐納德-特朗普那裡聽到的聲明，他在那裡說，在一個有。

Frankly, we did win this election.

坦率地說，我們確實贏得了這次選舉。

As far as I am concerned, we already have one.

據我所知，我們已經有一個。

Well, it's not for him to decide whether the election has Bean one or not.

好吧，選舉是否有豆一，不是他能決定的。

And then this point.

然後這一點。

We want all voting to stop Voting has stopped.

我們希望所有的投票都停止 投票已經停止。

It's the counting that's underway and it's the counting that he appears to want to stop, or at least to throw into doubt.

這是正在進行的計算，而他似乎想停止的是計算，或者至少是讓人懷疑。

And this has, you know, either a serious democratic impact in undermining you know, the validity of people's votes that were cast in good faith.

這有，你知道，要麼是一個嚴重的民主影響 在破壞你知道，人們的有效性 投票是善意的。

But also it potentially sets up.

但也它潛在的設置。

You know, a really crisis of legitimacy for the future president, almost whoever that is, because if Joe Biden gets elected, you know if you Joe Biden comes through, but what may be a prolonged legal battle, there will be many Trump supporters who believe Trump said it on Election Day.

你知道，未來總統的合法性真的危機，幾乎不管那是誰，因為如果喬-拜登當選，你知道如果你喬-拜登通過，但可能是一場長期的法律鬥爭，將有許多特朗普的支持者相信特朗普在選舉日說。

This was a what did you say?

這是一個你說什麼？

A massive fraud against the American people.

對美國人民的大規模欺詐。

That is very dangerous.

這是很危險的。

Okay, Phil, I'd like to get your reaction to what?

好吧，菲爾，我想知道你對什麼的反應？

We have just heard the US president say that he wants the voting to stop talk with us about the legitimacy of this election and the process.

我們剛才聽到美國總統說，他希望投票停止，跟我們談談這次選舉的合法性和過程。

What we're seeing happening now.

我們現在看到的情況。

Yeah, I I find it really distressing those words.

是啊，我我覺得這些話真的很讓人痛苦。

I mean, there's nothing illegitimate about counting votes that is common in all states that you count votes.

我的意思是，計票並沒有什麼不合法的地方，這在所有計票的州都是通用的。

There's nothing irregular about continuing to count after the night of the election.

在選舉當晚之後繼續計票，並沒有什麼不正常。

The president has said for weeks now kind of being setting up the stage that he might question that I think going back to what Richard said, which is that due to the pandemic, we have a lot of states with mail in voting.

總統已經說了好幾周了，那種正在設置階段，他可能會質疑，我想回到理查德所說的，這是由於流行病，我們有很多州的郵件投票。

Ah, lot of folks who are doing the mail in voting.

啊，很多人都在做郵寄投票。

Our Democratic voters, uh, also the president had encouraged his voters to turn out on Election Day, whereas the Democrats, more concerned and conscious of the covert pandemic, have said that mail in voting is a way to go so thes are, uh, you know, the president has set the stage for this, and there's no legitimacy at all to that kind of assertion that voting house or the counting house to stop tonight.

我們的民主黨選民，呃，總統也鼓勵他的選民在選舉日投票，而民主黨，更關心和意識到祕密流行病，說郵寄投票是一種方式，所以，呃，你知道，總統已經設置了這個階段，沒有任何合法性的說法，投票所或計票所今晚停止。

Richard, what sort of timeline could we be looking at?

理查德，我們能看到什麼樣的時間線？

Because, I mean, we have these three states where we can see already the battle forming Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin.

因為，我的意思是，我們有這三個州，我們可以看到已經形成戰鬥 賓夕法尼亞州，密歇根州，威斯康星州。

How long could it take before we have a result in that states and and And what is happening right now on the ground?

我們需要多長時間才能有一個結果，在國家和和現在的地面上發生了什麼？

You think in terms of lawyers in terms of, you know, setting up for a battle on both sides?

你從律師的角度考慮，你知道，為雙方的戰鬥做準備？

Well, this has been in preparation for some time, and Donald Trump is being very transparent about it, even in recent days, but also in recent weeks, just sort of saying that he's lining up for a legal battle.

好吧，這已經準備了一段時間，唐納德-特朗普對此非常透明，甚至在最近幾天，但也在最近幾周，只是有點說，他正在為一場法律戰排隊。

E there two steps.

E有兩個步驟。

Essentially, First, you know, there's this count taking place, and then there's the legal track on.

基本上，首先，你知道，有這個計數發生，然後有法律軌道上。

Do you know if there are legal challenges?

你知道是否有法律質疑？

It's on a state by state basis, but it may end up with the Supreme Court.

這是在一個州的基礎上，但它可能最終與最高法院。

You know there's a challenge, for instance, in Pennsylvania on a detail, whether votes that arrive after Election Day but a postmarked before Election Day, whether those could be counted.

你知道有一個挑戰，例如在賓夕法尼亞州的一個細節，是否在選舉日之後到達的選票，但在選舉日之前的郵戳，是否可以被計算在內。

The Republicans are challenging that on hoping that the Supreme Court will hear that and there could be multiple kind of state based challenges like that.

共和黨人正在挑戰，就希望最高法院能審理，可能會有多種基於州的這樣的挑戰。

So it's very hard to say, I mean, the last time there was an election, you know, with this kind of legal wrangling around it was Florida, of course, in the year 2000 between George W.

所以很難說，我的意思是，上一次有選舉的時候，你知道，有這樣的法律糾紛，當然是在佛羅里達州，在2000年，在喬治-W.

Bush and on Al Gore on that took, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but that to pretty much to the end of the year, for the Supreme Court to come through with the decision.

布什和阿爾・戈爾在這一點上採取了，嗯， 糾正我，如果我錯了， 但幾乎到年底，

And that was just Florida here.

而這只是佛羅里達州這裡。

We're talking potentially about multiple states.

我們說的可能是多個州。

Eso yeah, we could be in for quite a long period of uncertainty.

是的，我們可能會有很長一段時間的不確定性。

Phil.

菲爾。

What do you think the lessons are from back in 2000 and talk with us about how different the country is now?

你認為2000年時的教訓是什麼，和我們談談現在的國家有什麼不同？

Um, and the court especially, um now in the year 2020 Onda.

嗯，尤其是法院，嗯現在在2020年昂達。

How we could potentially see things shaking out in the coming days.

我們有可能在未來幾天看到事情的發展。

Perhaps in the coming weeks.

也許在未來幾周內。

Yeah, I think the environment is quite different.

是啊，我覺得環境很不一樣。

I mean, obviously the divisiveness in the country is much stronger.

我的意思是，很明顯，這個國家的分化要強烈得多。

And back then you had two candidates that both, you know, committed to a very basic foundation of democracy, which is the peaceful transition of power, and that you know, the pretext of that.

而那時你有兩位候選人，你知道，他們都致力於民主的一個非常基本的基礎，那就是權力的和平過渡，而你知道，那是藉口。

With all of these messages from President Trump ahead of the election, also kind of disputing or signaling that he might not be comfortable with any result where he is not the winner is a very different kind of context that that, uh, than we had in in 2000, even though it was, of course, a, uh, a new election that was drawn out to the end of the year and ended up in the Supreme Court.

與所有這些消息從總統特朗普在選舉前，也是一種爭議或信號，他可能不舒服與任何結果，他不是贏家是一種非常不同的背景，那，呃，比我們在2000年，即使它是，當然，一個，呃，一個新的選舉，被拉出到年底，並最終在最高法院。

But it's it's a different context here in terms of what it means for democracy.

但它是... ...它對民主的意義是不同的背景。

I think one thing that is gonna be very interesting.

我覺得有一件事會非常有趣。

We've already seen one response from a relatively little known Republican congressman.

我們已經看到一個相對不知名的共和黨國會議員的迴應。

But how, uh, not just how the court's going to respond to this.

但是，如何，呃，不只是如何 法院將回應這一點。

Three courts, of course, have been increasingly politicized.

當然，三個法院的政治化程度越來越高。

That's a long running process.

這是一個長期運行的過程。

The Supreme Court itself has become increasingly politicized and has gained a significant conservative majority under Donald Trump now, but also how other Republicans respond to this.

最高法院本身的政治化程度越來越高，在唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）的帶領下，現在已經獲得了明顯的保守派多數，但也有其他共和黨人對此如何迴應。

So this, you know, relatively unknown congressman has will be scouring firm or reactions.

所以，這個，你知道的，相對陌生的國會議員有將是蒐羅公司或反應。

How much support does Trump have for going down this road?

特朗普走這條路有多少支持率？

What we've seen so far, you know, under the Trump presidency is that most off the Republicans in Congress have been behind him.

到目前為止，我們所看到的，你知道，在特朗普的總統任期內，國會中大多數共和黨人都支持他。

You know, they a lot of them didn't like him, still don't like him.

你知道，他們很多人都不喜歡他，現在也不喜歡他。

But they initially reluctantly, because they like the winner, you know, here, it's not, You know, we don't know whether he's a winner now.

但他們最初不願意，因為他們喜歡贏家，你知道，在這裡，這不是，你知道，我們不知道他現在是否是一個贏家。

And is this a point which mawr of some kind of bail on him?

而這一點是某種保釋他的毛毛雨嗎？

What is Mitt Romney gonna say about this?

米特-羅姆尼會怎麼說？

You know, some of these kind of like, sort of highly regarded, um, sort of kind of what you might call sort of true conservatives against the populist movement that Trump has brought it.

你知道，其中一些那種喜歡，那種高度重視的，嗯，那種你可以稱之為那種真正的保守派反對特朗普帶來的民粹主義運動。

That's going to be really interesting because of his report.

這將是非常有趣的，因為他的報告。