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  • Chris Anderson: Dr. Jane Goodall, welcome.

    克里斯-安德森Jane Goodall博士 歡迎

  • Jane Goodall: Thank you,

    簡-古道爾:謝謝你。

  • and I think, you know, we couldn't have a complete interview

    我想,你知道,我們不可能有一個完整的採訪。

  • unless people know Mr. H is with me,

    除非人們知道H先生和我在一起。

  • because everybody knows Mr. H.

    因為大家都知道H先生。

  • CA: Hello, Mr. H.

    CA:你好,H先生。

  • In your TED Talk 17 years ago,

    在你17年前的TED演講中。

  • you warned us about the dangers of humans crowding out the natural world.

    你警告過我們關於人類排擠自然界的危險。

  • Is there any sense in which you feel

    是否有任何意義上,你覺得

  • that the current pandemic is kind of, nature striking back?

    目前的流行病是一種,大自然的反擊?

  • JG: It's very, very clear that these zoonotic diseases,

    JG:非常非常清楚,這些人畜共患病。

  • like the corona and HIV/AIDS

    如日冕和艾滋病毒/艾滋病

  • and all sorts of other diseases that we catch from animals,

    以及其他各種我們從動物身上感染的疾病。

  • that's partly to do with destruction of the environment,

    這與環境的破壞有部分關係。

  • which, as animals lose habitat, they get crowded together

    當動物失去棲息地時,它們就會擠在一起。

  • and sometimes that means that a virus from a reservoir species,

    而有時候,這意味著,來自水庫物種的病毒。

  • where it's lived harmoniously for maybe hundreds of years,

    在那裡,它和諧地生活了也許幾百年。

  • jumps into a new species,

    跳入一個新的物種。

  • then you also get animals being pushed into closer contact with humans.

    然後,你也得到動物被推到更接近人類的接觸。

  • And sometimes one of these animals that has caught a virus can --

    有時,這些動物中的一個 感染了病毒,可以... ...

  • you know, provides the opportunity for that virus to jump into people

    你知道,提供了機會 該病毒跳到人身上

  • and create a new disease, like COVID-19.

    並創造一種新的疾病,如COVID-19。

  • And in addition to that,

    除此以外。

  • we are so disrespecting animals.

    我們是如此不尊重動物。

  • We hunt them,

    我們獵殺他們。

  • we kill them, we eat them,

    我們殺了他們,我們吃了他們。

  • we traffic them,

    我們的交通。

  • we send them off to the wild-animal markets

    我們把它們送去野生動物市場

  • in Asia,

    在亞洲:

  • where they're in terrible, cramped conditions, in tiny cages,

    在那裡,他們是在可怕的, 狹窄的條件,在小籠子裡。

  • with people being contaminated with blood and urine and feces,

    與人們被血液和尿液及糞便汙染。

  • ideal conditions for a virus to spill from an animal to an animal,

    病毒從動物身上擴散到動物身上的理想條件。

  • or an animal to a person.

    或動物對人。

  • CA: I'd love to just dip backwards in time for a bit,

    CA:我很想把時間倒流一下。

  • because your story is so extraordinary.

    因為你的故事是如此的不平凡。

  • I mean, despite the arguably even more sexist attitudes of the 1960s,

    我的意思是,儘管60年代的性別歧視態度可以說更加嚴重。

  • somehow you were able to break through

    不知何故,你能夠突破

  • and become one of the world's leading scientists,

    併成為世界頂尖的科學家之一。

  • discovering this astonishing series of facts about chimpanzees,

    發現這一系列關於黑猩猩的驚人事實。

  • such as their tool use and so much more.

    如他們的工具使用等等。

  • What was it about you, do you think,

    你是怎麼想的,你覺得。

  • that allowed you to make such a breakthrough?

    讓你取得了這樣的突破?

  • JG: Well, the thing is, I was born loving animals,

    JG:嗯,問題是,我天生就喜歡動物。

  • and the most important thing was, I had a very supportive mother.

    而最重要的是,我有一個非常支持我的母親。

  • She didn't get mad when she found earthworms in my bed,

    當她在我的床上發現蚯蚓時,她並沒有生氣。

  • she just said they better be in the garden.

    她只是說,他們最好是在花園裡。

  • And she didn't get mad when I disappeared for four hours

    我消失了四個小時,她也沒有生氣。

  • and she called the police, and I was sitting in a hen house,

    她打電話給警察, 我坐在一個母雞的房子。

  • because nobody would tell me where the hole was where the egg came out.

    因為沒有人願意告訴我雞蛋出來的洞在哪裡。

  • I had no dream of being a scientist,

    我沒有當科學家的夢想。

  • because women didn't do that sort of thing.

    因為女人不會做那種事情。

  • In fact, there weren't any man doing it back then, either.

    其實,那時候也沒有男人做。

  • And everybody laughed at me except Mom,

    除了媽媽,大家都笑我。

  • who said, "If you really want this, you're going to have to work awfully hard,

    誰說的,"如果你真的想要這個,你將不得不非常努力。

  • take advantage of every opportunity,

    抓住每一個機會。

  • if you don't give up, maybe you'll find a way."

    如果你不放棄,也許你會找到一個方法。"

  • CA: And somehow, you were able to kind of, earn the trust of chimpanzees

    CA:不知為何,你能夠贏得黑猩猩的信任。

  • in the way that no one else had.

    以別人沒有的方式。

  • Looking back, what were the most exciting moments that you discovered

    回顧過去,你發現最激動人心的時刻是什麼?

  • or what is it that people still don't get about chimpanzees?

    或者說,人們對黑猩猩還有什麼不明白的地方?

  • JG: Well, the thing is, you say, "See things nobody else had,

    JG:嗯,事情是這樣的,你說,"看到別人沒有的東西。

  • get their trust."

    得到他們的信任。"

  • Nobody else had tried.

    別人都沒試過。

  • Quite honestly.

    很誠實的說。

  • So, basically, I used the same techniques

    所以,基本上,我用同樣的技術

  • that I had to study the animals around my home when I was a child.

    說我小時候要研究我家周圍的動物。

  • Just sitting, patiently,

    只是坐著,耐心地。

  • not trying to get too close too quickly,

    不試圖太快接近。

  • but it was awful, because the money was only for six months.

    但它是可怕的,因為錢是隻有半年。

  • I mean, you can imagine how difficult to get money

    我的意思是,你可以想象得到錢是多麼的困難。

  • for a young girl with no degree,

    對於一個沒有學位的年輕女孩來說。

  • to go and do something as bizarre as sitting in a forest.

    去做一些奇怪的事情,就像坐在森林裡一樣。

  • And you know, finally,

    你知道,最後。

  • we got money for six months from an American philanthropist,

    我們從一個美國慈善家那裡得到了六個月的錢。

  • and I knew with time I'd get the chimps' trust,

    我知道隨著時間的推移,我會得到黑猩猩的信任。

  • but did I have time?

    但我有時間嗎?

  • And weeks became months and then finally, after about four months,

    而幾周變成了幾個月,最後,大約四個月後。

  • one chimpanzee began to lose his fear,

    一隻黑猩猩開始失去恐懼。

  • and it was he that on one occasion I saw --

    正是他,有一次我看到 --

  • I still wasn't really close, but I had my binoculars --

    我仍然沒有真正的接近, 但我有我的雙筒望遠鏡 -

  • and I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites.

    我看到他在使用和製造工具來釣白蟻。

  • And although I wasn't terribly surprised,

    雖然我並不十分驚訝。

  • because I've read about things captive chimps could do --

    因為我讀到過關於圈養黑猩猩的事情 --

  • but I knew that science believed

    但我知道,科學相信

  • that humans, and only humans, used and made tools.

    人類,也只有人類才會使用和製造工具。

  • And I knew how excited [Dr. Louis] Leakey would be.

    我知道[路易斯]利基博士會多麼興奮。

  • And it was that observation

    而正是這種觀察

  • that enabled him to go to the National Geographic,

    使他能夠去《國家地理》。

  • and they said, "OK, we'll continue to support the research,"

    他們說,"好吧,我們將繼續支持研究,"

  • and they sent Hugo van Lawick, the photographer-filmmaker,

    他們派了雨果-範-勞克,攝影師-製片人。

  • to record what I was seeing.

    來記錄我看到的東西。

  • So a lot of scientists didn't want to believe the tool-using.

    所以很多科學家都不願意相信使用工具的。

  • In fact, one of them said I must have taught the chimps.

    事實上,他們中的一個人說我一定是教了黑猩猩。

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • Since I couldn't get near them, it would have been a miracle.

    既然我無法靠近他們,那就只能是奇蹟了。

  • But anyway, once they saw Hugo's film

    但無論如何,當他們看到雨果的電影后

  • and that with all my descriptions of their behavior,

    而我對他們的行為的描述。

  • the scientists had to start changing their minds.

    科學家們不得不開始改變他們的想法。

  • CA: And since then, numerous other discoveries

    CA:從那時起,許多其他的發現。

  • that placed chimpanzees much closer to humans than people cared to believe.

    這讓黑猩猩與人類的關係比人們願意相信的要密切得多。

  • I think I saw you say at one point that they have a sense of humor.

    我想我看到你曾經說過,他們有幽默感。

  • How have you seen that expressed?

    你是如何看待這種表達的?

  • JG: Well, you see it when they're playing games,

    JG:嗯,他們玩遊戲的時候你就能看到。

  • and there's a bigger one playing with a little one,

    還有一個大的和一個小的在玩。

  • and he's trailing a vine around a tree.

    他在樹上拖著一根藤蔓。

  • And every time the little one is about to catch it,

    而每當小傢伙快要抓不住的時候。

  • the bigger one pulls it away,

    更大的人把它拉走。

  • and the little one starts crying

    而小傢伙開始哭

  • and the big one starts laughing.

    和大的開始笑。

  • So, you know.

    所以,你知道。

  • CA: And then, Jane, you observed something much more troubling,

    CA:然後,簡,你觀察到了一些更令人不安的事情。

  • which was these instances of chimpanzee gangs,

    這就是這些黑猩猩團伙的事例。

  • tribes, groups, being brutally violent to each other.

    部落、群體,彼此之間都是殘暴的。

  • I'm curious how you process that.

    我很好奇你是怎麼處理的。

  • And whether it made you, kind of,

    而是否讓你,有點。

  • I don't know, depressed about us, we're close to them,

    我不知道,鬱悶我們,我們和他們很親近。

  • did it make you feel that violence is irredeemably

    它讓你覺得暴力是不可救藥的。

  • part of all the great apes, somehow?

    屬於所有大型類人猿的一部分,不知為何?

  • JG: Well, it obviously is.

    JG:嗯,顯然是這樣。

  • And my first encounter with human, what I call evil,

    而我第一次接觸到人類,我稱之為邪惡。

  • was the end of the war

    是戰爭的結束

  • and the pictures from the Holocaust.

    和大屠殺的照片。

  • And you know, that really shocked me.

    你知道,這真的讓我很震驚。

  • That changed who I was.

    這改變了我的身份。

  • I was 10, I think, at the time.

    當時我才10歲吧。

  • And when the chimpanzees,

    而當黑猩猩。

  • when I realized they have this dark, brutal side,

    當我意識到他們有這黑暗,殘酷的一面。

  • I thought they were like us but nicer.

    我以為他們和我們一樣,但更好。

  • And then I realized they're even more like us

    然後我發現他們更像我們了

  • than I had thought.

    比我想象的要好。

  • And at that time, in the early '70s,

    而當時,在70年代初。

  • it was very strange,

    這是非常奇怪的。

  • aggression, there was a big thing

    侵略,有一件大事

  • about, is aggression innate or learned.

    關於,攻擊性是先天的還是後天的。

  • And it became political.

    然後就變成了政治。

  • And it was, I don't know, it was a very strange time,

    那是,我不知道,這是一個非常奇怪的時間。

  • and I was coming out, saying,

    我出來的時候,說。

  • "No, I think aggression is definitely

    "不,我認為侵略性絕對是

  • part of our inherited repertoire of behaviors."

    我們固有行為的一部分。"

  • And I asked a very respected scientist what he really thought,

    我問了一位非常受人尊敬的科學家,他到底是怎麼想的。

  • because he was coming out on the clean slate,

    因為他是出來的 在乾淨的板塊。

  • aggression is learned,

    攻擊性是學來的。

  • and he said, "Jane, I'd rather not talk about what I really think."

    他說,"簡,我寧願不說我的真實想法。"

  • That was a big shock as far as science was concerned for me.

    就科學而言,這對我來說是一個很大的衝擊。

  • CA: I was brought up to believe a world of all things bright and beautiful.

    CA:我從小就相信一個世界萬物光明美好。

  • You know, numerous beautiful films of butterflies and bees and flowers,

    你知道嗎,無數美麗的蝴蝶、蜜蜂和花朵的影片。

  • and you know, nature as this gorgeous landscape.

    你知道,自然界作為這個華麗的景觀。

  • And many environmentalists often seem to take the stance,

    而很多環保人士似乎也常常採取這樣的立場。

  • "Yes, nature is pure, nature is beautiful, humans are bad,"

    "是的,大自然是純潔的,大自然是美麗的,人類是壞的"。

  • but then you have the kind of observations that you see,

    但你有你看到的那種觀察。

  • when you actually look at any part of nature in more detail,

    當你真正更詳細地觀察自然界的任何部分時。

  • you see things to be terrified by, honestly.

    你看到的東西被嚇壞了,說實話。

  • What do you make of nature, how do you think of it,

    你怎麼看待大自然,怎麼看待它。

  • how should we think of it?

    我們應該怎麼想呢?

  • JG: Nature is, you know,

    JG:自然是,你知道的。

  • I mean, you think of the whole spectrum of evolution,

    我是說,你想想整個進化的範圍。

  • and there's something about going to a pristine place,

    有一些關於去一個原始的地方。

  • and Africa was very pristine when I was young.

    而非洲在我年輕的時候是非常原始的。

  • And there were animals everywhere.

    而且到處都是動物。

  • And I never liked the fact that lions killed,

    而我一直不喜歡獅子殺人的事實。

  • they have to, I mean, that's what they do,

    他們必須這樣做,我的意思是,這就是他們的工作。

  • if they didn't kill animals, they would die.

    如果他們不殺動物,他們會死。

  • And the big difference between them and us, I think,

    而他們和我們最大的區別,我想。

  • is that they do what they do because that's what they have to do.

    是他們做他們所做的事情,因為那是他們必須要做的。

  • And we can plan to do things.

    而且我們可以計劃做事。

  • Our plans are very different.

    我們的計劃是非常不同的。

  • We can plan to cut down a whole forest,

    我們可以計劃砍掉一整片森林。

  • because we want to sell the timber,

    因為我們想賣掉這些木材。

  • or because we want to build another shopping mall,

    還是因為我們想再建一個商場。

  • something like that.

    類似的東西。

  • So our destruction of nature and our warfare,

    所以我們對自然的破壞和戰爭。

  • we're capable of evil because we can sit comfortably

    惡有惡報,坐享其成

  • and plan the torture of somebody far away.

    並計劃對遠方的某個人施以酷刑。

  • That's evil.

    這是邪惡的。

  • Chimpanzees have a sort of primitive war,

    黑猩猩有一種原始的戰爭。

  • and they can be very aggressive,

    而且他們可以很有攻擊性。

  • but it's of the moment.

    但這是當下的。

  • It's how they feel.

    這就是他們的感覺。

  • It's response to an emotion.

    這是對一種情緒的反應。

  • CA: So your observation of the sophistication of chimpanzees

    CA:所以你對黑猩猩的複雜性的觀察。

  • doesn't go as far as what some people would want to say

    不盡如人意

  • is the sort of the human superpower,

    是人類超級大國的那種。

  • of being able to really simulate the future in our minds in great detail

    能夠真正在我們的腦海中模擬出未來的詳細情況

  • and make long-term plans.

    並制定長期計劃。

  • And act to encourage each other to achieve those long-term plans.

    並採取行動鼓勵對方實現這些長期計劃。

  • That that feels, even to someone who spent so much time with chimpanzees,

    這種感覺,即使是和黑猩猩相處了這麼久的人也是如此。

  • that feels like a fundamentally different skill set

    殊途同歸

  • that we just have to take responsibility for

    我們只需要負責

  • and use much more wisely than we do.

    並比我們更明智地使用。

  • JG: Yes, and I personally think,

    JG:是的,我個人認為。

  • I mean, there's a lot of discussion about this,

    我的意思是,有很多關於這個的討論。

  • but I think it's a fact that we developed the way of communication

    但我認為這是一個事實,我們開發了溝通的方式。

  • that you and I are using.

    你我都在使用的。

  • And because we have words,

    因為我們有文字。

  • I mean, animal communication is way more sophisticated

    我的意思是,動物的交流是更復雜的方式

  • than we used to think.

    比我們以前想的要好。

  • And chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans

    還有黑猩猩,大猩猩,紅毛猩猩

  • can learn human sign language of the Deaf.

    可以學習聾啞人的手語。

  • But we sort of grow up speaking whatever language it is.

    但是,我們有點長大了,不管它是什麼語言。

  • So I can tell you about things that you've never heard of.

    所以我可以告訴你一些你從未聽說過的事情。

  • And a chimpanzee couldn't do that.

    而黑猩猩是做不到的。

  • And we can teach our children about abstract things.

    而且我們可以教給孩子一些抽象的東西。

  • And chimpanzees couldn't do that.

    而黑猩猩就做不到這一點。

  • So yes, chimpanzees can do all sorts of clever things,

    所以是的,黑猩猩可以做各種聰明的事情。

  • and so can elephants and so can crows and so can octopuses,

    大象也是,烏鴉也是,章魚也是。

  • but we design rockets that go off to another planet

    但我們設計的火箭,去另一個星球。

  • and little robots taking photographs,

    和小機器人拍照。

  • and we've designed this extraordinary way of you and me talking

    我們已經設計了這種非凡的方式 你和我的談話。

  • in our different parts of the world.

    在我們不同的地方,

  • When I was young, when I grew up,

    當我年輕的時候,當我長大的時候。

  • there was no TV, there were no cell phones,

    當時沒有電視,沒有手機。

  • there was no computers.

    當時沒有電腦。

  • It was such a different world,

    那是一個多麼不同的世界。

  • I had a pencil, pen and notebook, that was it.

    我有一支鉛筆、鋼筆和筆記本,就是這樣。

  • CA: So just going back to this question about nature,

    CA:所以就回到這個關於自然的問題。

  • because I think about this a lot,

    因為我想了很多。

  • and I struggle with this, honestly.

    我也在掙扎,說實話。

  • So much of your work, so much of so many people who I respect,

    你的作品,這麼多我尊敬的人。

  • is about this passion for trying not to screw up the natural world.

    是關於這種儘量不破壞自然界的熱情。

  • So is it possible, is it healthy, is it essential, perhaps,

    那麼,這是否可能,是否健康,是否必不可少,或許。

  • to simultaneously accept that many aspects of nature

    同時接受自然界的許多方面

  • are terrifying,

    是可怕的。

  • but also, I don't know, that it's awesome,

    但也,我不知道,這是真棒。

  • and that some of the awesomeness comes from its potential to be terrifying

    一些可怕的東西來自於它的潛在的可怕性。

  • and that it is also just breathtakingly beautiful,

    而且它也只是令人窒息的美麗。

  • and that we cannot be ourselves, because we are part of nature,

    而我們無法成為自己,因為我們是自然的一部分。

  • we cannot be whole

    人無完人

  • unless we somehow embrace it and are part of it?

    除非我們以某種方式接受它併成為它的一部分?

  • Help me with the language, Jane, on how that relationship should be.

    幫我用語言,簡,關於這種關係應該如何。

  • JG: Well, I think one of the problems is, you know, as we developed our intellect,

    JG:好吧,我認為其中一個問題是,你知道,隨著我們智力的發展。

  • and we became better and better

    我們變得越來越好

  • at modifying the environment for our own use,

    在修改環境供我們自己使用。

  • and creating fields and growing crops

    和造田種地

  • where it used to be forest or woodland,

    過去是森林或林地的地方。

  • and you know, we won't go into that now,

    你知道,我們不會去到現在。

  • but we have this ability to change nature.

    但我們有這個能力來改變自然。

  • And as we've moved more into towns and cities,

    而隨著我們更多地進入城鎮。

  • and relied more on technology,

    並更多地依賴技術。

  • many people feel so divorced from the natural world.

    很多人覺得自己與自然界是如此的隔膜。

  • And there's hundreds, thousands of children

    有幾百,幾千名兒童

  • growing up in inner cities,

    在內城長大的。

  • where there basically isn't any nature,

    在那裡基本上沒有任何性質。

  • which is why this movement now to green our cities is so important.

    這就是為什麼現在這場綠化城市的運動如此重要。