Jane Goodall: Thank you,

簡-古道爾：謝謝你。

and I think, you know, we couldn't have a complete interview

我想，你知道，我們不可能有一個完整的採訪。

unless people know Mr. H is with me,

除非人們知道H先生和我在一起。

because everybody knows Mr. H.

因為大家都知道H先生。

CA: Hello, Mr. H.

CA：你好，H先生。

In your TED Talk 17 years ago,

在你17年前的TED演講中。

you warned us about the dangers of humans crowding out the natural world.

你警告過我們關於人類排擠自然界的危險。

Is there any sense in which you feel

是否有任何意義上，你覺得

that the current pandemic is kind of, nature striking back?

目前的流行病是一種，大自然的反擊？

JG: It's very, very clear that these zoonotic diseases,

JG：非常非常清楚，這些人畜共患病。

like the corona and HIV/AIDS

如日冕和艾滋病毒/艾滋病

and all sorts of other diseases that we catch from animals,

以及其他各種我們從動物身上感染的疾病。

that's partly to do with destruction of the environment,

這與環境的破壞有部分關係。

which, as animals lose habitat, they get crowded together

當動物失去棲息地時，它們就會擠在一起。

and sometimes that means that a virus from a reservoir species,

而有時候，這意味著，來自水庫物種的病毒。

where it's lived harmoniously for maybe hundreds of years,

在那裡，它和諧地生活了也許幾百年。

jumps into a new species,

跳入一個新的物種。

then you also get animals being pushed into closer contact with humans.

然後，你也得到動物被推到更接近人類的接觸。

And sometimes one of these animals that has caught a virus can --

有時，這些動物中的一個 感染了病毒，可以... ...

you know, provides the opportunity for that virus to jump into people

你知道，提供了機會 該病毒跳到人身上

and create a new disease, like COVID-19.

並創造一種新的疾病，如COVID-19。

And in addition to that,

除此以外。

we are so disrespecting animals.

我們是如此不尊重動物。

We hunt them,

我們獵殺他們。

we kill them, we eat them,

我們殺了他們，我們吃了他們。

we traffic them,

我們的交通。

we send them off to the wild-animal markets

我們把它們送去野生動物市場

in Asia,

在亞洲：

where they're in terrible, cramped conditions, in tiny cages,

在那裡，他們是在可怕的， 狹窄的條件，在小籠子裡。

with people being contaminated with blood and urine and feces,

與人們被血液和尿液及糞便汙染。

ideal conditions for a virus to spill from an animal to an animal,

病毒從動物身上擴散到動物身上的理想條件。

or an animal to a person.

或動物對人。

CA: I'd love to just dip backwards in time for a bit,

CA：我很想把時間倒流一下。

because your story is so extraordinary.

因為你的故事是如此的不平凡。

I mean, despite the arguably even more sexist attitudes of the 1960s,

我的意思是，儘管60年代的性別歧視態度可以說更加嚴重。

somehow you were able to break through

不知何故，你能夠突破

and become one of the world's leading scientists,

併成為世界頂尖的科學家之一。

discovering this astonishing series of facts about chimpanzees,

發現這一系列關於黑猩猩的驚人事實。

such as their tool use and so much more.

如他們的工具使用等等。

What was it about you, do you think,

你是怎麼想的，你覺得。

that allowed you to make such a breakthrough?

讓你取得了這樣的突破？

JG: Well, the thing is, I was born loving animals,

JG：嗯，問題是，我天生就喜歡動物。

and the most important thing was, I had a very supportive mother.

而最重要的是，我有一個非常支持我的母親。

She didn't get mad when she found earthworms in my bed,

當她在我的床上發現蚯蚓時，她並沒有生氣。

she just said they better be in the garden.

她只是說，他們最好是在花園裡。

And she didn't get mad when I disappeared for four hours

我消失了四個小時，她也沒有生氣。

and she called the police, and I was sitting in a hen house,

她打電話給警察， 我坐在一個母雞的房子。

because nobody would tell me where the hole was where the egg came out.

因為沒有人願意告訴我雞蛋出來的洞在哪裡。

I had no dream of being a scientist,

我沒有當科學家的夢想。

because women didn't do that sort of thing.

因為女人不會做那種事情。

In fact, there weren't any man doing it back then, either.

其實，那時候也沒有男人做。

And everybody laughed at me except Mom,

除了媽媽，大家都笑我。

who said, "If you really want this, you're going to have to work awfully hard,

誰說的，"如果你真的想要這個，你將不得不非常努力。

take advantage of every opportunity,

抓住每一個機會。

if you don't give up, maybe you'll find a way."

如果你不放棄，也許你會找到一個方法。"

CA: And somehow, you were able to kind of, earn the trust of chimpanzees

CA：不知為何，你能夠贏得黑猩猩的信任。

in the way that no one else had.

以別人沒有的方式。

Looking back, what were the most exciting moments that you discovered

回顧過去，你發現最激動人心的時刻是什麼？

or what is it that people still don't get about chimpanzees?

或者說，人們對黑猩猩還有什麼不明白的地方？

JG: Well, the thing is, you say, "See things nobody else had,

JG：嗯，事情是這樣的，你說，"看到別人沒有的東西。

get their trust."

得到他們的信任。"

Nobody else had tried.

別人都沒試過。

Quite honestly.

很誠實的說。

So, basically, I used the same techniques

所以，基本上，我用同樣的技術

that I had to study the animals around my home when I was a child.

說我小時候要研究我家周圍的動物。

Just sitting, patiently,

只是坐著，耐心地。

not trying to get too close too quickly,

不試圖太快接近。

but it was awful, because the money was only for six months.

但它是可怕的，因為錢是隻有半年。

I mean, you can imagine how difficult to get money

我的意思是，你可以想象得到錢是多麼的困難。

for a young girl with no degree,

對於一個沒有學位的年輕女孩來說。

to go and do something as bizarre as sitting in a forest.

去做一些奇怪的事情，就像坐在森林裡一樣。

And you know, finally,

你知道，最後。

we got money for six months from an American philanthropist,

我們從一個美國慈善家那裡得到了六個月的錢。

and I knew with time I'd get the chimps' trust,

我知道隨著時間的推移，我會得到黑猩猩的信任。

but did I have time?

但我有時間嗎？

And weeks became months and then finally, after about four months,

而幾周變成了幾個月，最後，大約四個月後。

one chimpanzee began to lose his fear,

一隻黑猩猩開始失去恐懼。

and it was he that on one occasion I saw --

正是他，有一次我看到 --

I still wasn't really close, but I had my binoculars --

我仍然沒有真正的接近， 但我有我的雙筒望遠鏡 -

and I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites.

我看到他在使用和製造工具來釣白蟻。

And although I wasn't terribly surprised,

雖然我並不十分驚訝。

because I've read about things captive chimps could do --

因為我讀到過關於圈養黑猩猩的事情 --

but I knew that science believed

但我知道，科學相信

that humans, and only humans, used and made tools.

人類，也只有人類才會使用和製造工具。

And I knew how excited [Dr. Louis] Leakey would be.

我知道[路易斯]利基博士會多麼興奮。

And it was that observation

而正是這種觀察

that enabled him to go to the National Geographic,

使他能夠去《國家地理》。

and they said, "OK, we'll continue to support the research,"

他們說，"好吧，我們將繼續支持研究，"

and they sent Hugo van Lawick, the photographer-filmmaker,

他們派了雨果-範-勞克，攝影師-製片人。

to record what I was seeing.

來記錄我看到的東西。

So a lot of scientists didn't want to believe the tool-using.

所以很多科學家都不願意相信使用工具的。

In fact, one of them said I must have taught the chimps.

事實上，他們中的一個人說我一定是教了黑猩猩。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Since I couldn't get near them, it would have been a miracle.

既然我無法靠近他們，那就只能是奇蹟了。

But anyway, once they saw Hugo's film

但無論如何，當他們看到雨果的電影后

and that with all my descriptions of their behavior,

而我對他們的行為的描述。

the scientists had to start changing their minds.

科學家們不得不開始改變他們的想法。

CA: And since then, numerous other discoveries

CA：從那時起，許多其他的發現。

that placed chimpanzees much closer to humans than people cared to believe.

這讓黑猩猩與人類的關係比人們願意相信的要密切得多。

I think I saw you say at one point that they have a sense of humor.

我想我看到你曾經說過，他們有幽默感。

How have you seen that expressed?

你是如何看待這種表達的？

JG: Well, you see it when they're playing games,

JG：嗯，他們玩遊戲的時候你就能看到。

and there's a bigger one playing with a little one,

還有一個大的和一個小的在玩。

and he's trailing a vine around a tree.

他在樹上拖著一根藤蔓。

And every time the little one is about to catch it,

而每當小傢伙快要抓不住的時候。

the bigger one pulls it away,

更大的人把它拉走。

and the little one starts crying

而小傢伙開始哭

and the big one starts laughing.

和大的開始笑。

So, you know.

所以，你知道。

CA: And then, Jane, you observed something much more troubling,

CA：然後，簡，你觀察到了一些更令人不安的事情。

which was these instances of chimpanzee gangs,

這就是這些黑猩猩團伙的事例。

tribes, groups, being brutally violent to each other.

部落、群體，彼此之間都是殘暴的。

I'm curious how you process that.

我很好奇你是怎麼處理的。

And whether it made you, kind of,

而是否讓你，有點。

I don't know, depressed about us, we're close to them,

我不知道，鬱悶我們，我們和他們很親近。

did it make you feel that violence is irredeemably

它讓你覺得暴力是不可救藥的。

part of all the great apes, somehow?

屬於所有大型類人猿的一部分，不知為何？

JG: Well, it obviously is.

JG：嗯，顯然是這樣。

And my first encounter with human, what I call evil,

而我第一次接觸到人類，我稱之為邪惡。

was the end of the war

是戰爭的結束

and the pictures from the Holocaust.

和大屠殺的照片。

And you know, that really shocked me.

你知道，這真的讓我很震驚。

That changed who I was.

這改變了我的身份。

I was 10, I think, at the time.

當時我才10歲吧。

And when the chimpanzees,

而當黑猩猩。

when I realized they have this dark, brutal side,

當我意識到他們有這黑暗，殘酷的一面。

I thought they were like us but nicer.

我以為他們和我們一樣，但更好。

And then I realized they're even more like us

然後我發現他們更像我們了

than I had thought.

比我想象的要好。

And at that time, in the early '70s,

而當時，在70年代初。

it was very strange,

這是非常奇怪的。

aggression, there was a big thing

侵略，有一件大事

about, is aggression innate or learned.

關於，攻擊性是先天的還是後天的。

And it became political.

然後就變成了政治。

And it was, I don't know, it was a very strange time,

那是，我不知道，這是一個非常奇怪的時間。

and I was coming out, saying,

我出來的時候，說。

"No, I think aggression is definitely

"不，我認為侵略性絕對是

part of our inherited repertoire of behaviors."

我們固有行為的一部分。"

And I asked a very respected scientist what he really thought,

我問了一位非常受人尊敬的科學家，他到底是怎麼想的。

because he was coming out on the clean slate,

因為他是出來的 在乾淨的板塊。

aggression is learned,

攻擊性是學來的。

and he said, "Jane, I'd rather not talk about what I really think."

他說，"簡，我寧願不說我的真實想法。"

That was a big shock as far as science was concerned for me.

就科學而言，這對我來說是一個很大的衝擊。

CA: I was brought up to believe a world of all things bright and beautiful.

CA：我從小就相信一個世界萬物光明美好。

You know, numerous beautiful films of butterflies and bees and flowers,

你知道嗎，無數美麗的蝴蝶、蜜蜂和花朵的影片。

and you know, nature as this gorgeous landscape.

你知道，自然界作為這個華麗的景觀。

And many environmentalists often seem to take the stance,

而很多環保人士似乎也常常採取這樣的立場。

"Yes, nature is pure, nature is beautiful, humans are bad,"

"是的，大自然是純潔的，大自然是美麗的，人類是壞的"。

but then you have the kind of observations that you see,

但你有你看到的那種觀察。

when you actually look at any part of nature in more detail,

當你真正更詳細地觀察自然界的任何部分時。

you see things to be terrified by, honestly.

你看到的東西被嚇壞了，說實話。

What do you make of nature, how do you think of it,

你怎麼看待大自然，怎麼看待它。

how should we think of it?

我們應該怎麼想呢？

JG: Nature is, you know,

JG：自然是，你知道的。

I mean, you think of the whole spectrum of evolution,

我是說，你想想整個進化的範圍。

and there's something about going to a pristine place,

有一些關於去一個原始的地方。

and Africa was very pristine when I was young.

而非洲在我年輕的時候是非常原始的。

And there were animals everywhere.

而且到處都是動物。

And I never liked the fact that lions killed,

而我一直不喜歡獅子殺人的事實。

they have to, I mean, that's what they do,

他們必須這樣做，我的意思是，這就是他們的工作。

if they didn't kill animals, they would die.

如果他們不殺動物，他們會死。

And the big difference between them and us, I think,

而他們和我們最大的區別，我想。

is that they do what they do because that's what they have to do.

是他們做他們所做的事情，因為那是他們必須要做的。

And we can plan to do things.

而且我們可以計劃做事。

Our plans are very different.

我們的計劃是非常不同的。

We can plan to cut down a whole forest,

我們可以計劃砍掉一整片森林。

because we want to sell the timber,

因為我們想賣掉這些木材。

or because we want to build another shopping mall,

還是因為我們想再建一個商場。

something like that.

類似的東西。

So our destruction of nature and our warfare,

所以我們對自然的破壞和戰爭。

we're capable of evil because we can sit comfortably

惡有惡報，坐享其成

and plan the torture of somebody far away.

並計劃對遠方的某個人施以酷刑。

That's evil.

這是邪惡的。

Chimpanzees have a sort of primitive war,

黑猩猩有一種原始的戰爭。

and they can be very aggressive,

而且他們可以很有攻擊性。

but it's of the moment.

但這是當下的。

It's how they feel.

這就是他們的感覺。

It's response to an emotion.

這是對一種情緒的反應。

CA: So your observation of the sophistication of chimpanzees

CA：所以你對黑猩猩的複雜性的觀察。

doesn't go as far as what some people would want to say

不盡如人意

is the sort of the human superpower,

是人類超級大國的那種。

of being able to really simulate the future in our minds in great detail

能夠真正在我們的腦海中模擬出未來的詳細情況

and make long-term plans.

並制定長期計劃。

And act to encourage each other to achieve those long-term plans.

並採取行動鼓勵對方實現這些長期計劃。

That that feels, even to someone who spent so much time with chimpanzees,

這種感覺，即使是和黑猩猩相處了這麼久的人也是如此。

that feels like a fundamentally different skill set

殊途同歸

that we just have to take responsibility for

我們只需要負責

and use much more wisely than we do.

並比我們更明智地使用。

JG: Yes, and I personally think,

JG：是的，我個人認為。

I mean, there's a lot of discussion about this,

我的意思是，有很多關於這個的討論。

but I think it's a fact that we developed the way of communication

但我認為這是一個事實，我們開發了溝通的方式。

that you and I are using.

你我都在使用的。

And because we have words,

因為我們有文字。

I mean, animal communication is way more sophisticated

我的意思是，動物的交流是更復雜的方式

than we used to think.

比我們以前想的要好。

And chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans

還有黑猩猩，大猩猩，紅毛猩猩

can learn human sign language of the Deaf.

可以學習聾啞人的手語。

But we sort of grow up speaking whatever language it is.

但是，我們有點長大了，不管它是什麼語言。

So I can tell you about things that you've never heard of.

所以我可以告訴你一些你從未聽說過的事情。

And a chimpanzee couldn't do that.

而黑猩猩是做不到的。

And we can teach our children about abstract things.

而且我們可以教給孩子一些抽象的東西。

And chimpanzees couldn't do that.

而黑猩猩就做不到這一點。

So yes, chimpanzees can do all sorts of clever things,

所以是的，黑猩猩可以做各種聰明的事情。

and so can elephants and so can crows and so can octopuses,

大象也是，烏鴉也是，章魚也是。

but we design rockets that go off to another planet

但我們設計的火箭，去另一個星球。

and little robots taking photographs,

和小機器人拍照。

and we've designed this extraordinary way of you and me talking

我們已經設計了這種非凡的方式 你和我的談話。

in our different parts of the world.

在我們不同的地方，

When I was young, when I grew up,

當我年輕的時候，當我長大的時候。

there was no TV, there were no cell phones,

當時沒有電視，沒有手機。

there was no computers.

當時沒有電腦。

It was such a different world,

那是一個多麼不同的世界。

I had a pencil, pen and notebook, that was it.

我有一支鉛筆、鋼筆和筆記本，就是這樣。

CA: So just going back to this question about nature,

CA：所以就回到這個關於自然的問題。

because I think about this a lot,

因為我想了很多。

and I struggle with this, honestly.

我也在掙扎，說實話。

So much of your work, so much of so many people who I respect,

你的作品，這麼多我尊敬的人。

is about this passion for trying not to screw up the natural world.

是關於這種儘量不破壞自然界的熱情。

So is it possible, is it healthy, is it essential, perhaps,

那麼，這是否可能，是否健康，是否必不可少，或許。

to simultaneously accept that many aspects of nature

同時接受自然界的許多方面

are terrifying,

是可怕的。

but also, I don't know, that it's awesome,

但也，我不知道，這是真棒。

and that some of the awesomeness comes from its potential to be terrifying

一些可怕的東西來自於它的潛在的可怕性。

and that it is also just breathtakingly beautiful,

而且它也只是令人窒息的美麗。

and that we cannot be ourselves, because we are part of nature,

而我們無法成為自己，因為我們是自然的一部分。

we cannot be whole

人無完人

unless we somehow embrace it and are part of it?

除非我們以某種方式接受它併成為它的一部分？

Help me with the language, Jane, on how that relationship should be.