Their agreement now gives the pope of final say over the appointment of thumb, but Beijing is the one who gets to come up with the choices.

他們的協議現在賦予了教皇在拇指的任命上的最終決定權，但北京是那個可以提出選擇的人。

Chinese authorities had previously selected bishops, without the say of the Vatican and a division formed between state sanctioned clergy and underground bishops who operated outside state control.

中國當局以前選拔主教，沒有梵蒂岡的發言權，形成了國家認可的神職人員和在國家控制之外活動的地下主教之間的分野。

The former bishop of Hong Kong, Cardinal Joseph Zen, has spoken up about this ah, pro Democrat.

香港前主教陳日君紅衣主教就說過這個啊，親民主黨人。

He has expressed concern over the church's engagement with China.

他曾對教會與中國的交往表示關注。

Here's DW interview with Cardinal 10 China and the Vatican recently renewed a secretive agreement signed two years ago.

以下是DW對紅衣主教10號的採訪，中國和梵蒂岡最近續簽了兩年前的祕密協議。

It allowed both Beijing and the Holy See a say in appointing bishops in China.

它允許北京和羅馬教廷在任命中國的主教方面有發言權。

Former Hong Kong Bishop Cardinal Joseph San accused the secretary of state, Cardinal Parolin, off betraying the 12 million Catholic populations to appease the communist regime.

前香港主教桑日君樞機指責國務卿帕羅林樞機為安撫共產黨政權而出賣1200萬天主教人口。

They always say a bad agreement is better than no agreement.

他們總是說，一個壞的協議比沒有協議好。

I cannot understand a bad agreement means agreement, which is immoral, Uh, which is against our faith.

我不能理解一個壞的協議意味著協議，這是不道德的，呃，這是違反我們的信仰。

Uh, how can it be better than no agreement.

呃，怎麼會比沒有協議好呢。

Incredible.

難以置信

So it is a betrayal.

所以這是一種背叛。

Uh, I suspect that Palaly wants thio to have this, uh, diplomatic relation reestablished.

我懷疑帕拉里想重建外交關係。

Uh, but that's very bad because that's a political thing.

呃，但這是非常糟糕的，因為這是一個政治問題。

It's not a religious way.

這不是一種宗教方式。

Our religion eso we first of all is our faith.

我們的宗教，我們首先是我們的信仰。

Cardinal Sin journeyed to Rome earlier this month in hopes to meet the pope, but in vain.

辛紅衣主教本月初前往羅馬，希望能與教皇見面，但徒勞無功。

He is worried that the underground charge in China will face even more.

他擔心，中國的地下收費將面臨更多。

Prosecution at state run Church gained legitimacy from this secret agreement the two years since the agreement The things went wrong, Wrong, very wrong.

國營教會的起訴從這個祕密協議中獲得了合法性 自協議簽訂後的兩年裡，事情出了問題，錯了，非常錯。

Uh, because the underground received no support from the Vatican, the older bishop's I and the Holy See don't give new bishops to the underground.

呃，因為地下組織沒有得到梵蒂岡的支持，老一輩的主教和教廷不會給地下組織新的主教。

They give many bishops to the official church.

他們把許多主教交給官方教會。

Uh, now individual church, all the bishops are legitimate.

呃，現在個別教會，所有的主教都是合法的。

Uh, you made them legitimate, But they are still bad people there, huh?

呃，你讓他們合法化了，但他們還是壞人，是吧？

And so the underground fear abundant betrayed because they are those faithful to the authority off the Pope.

所以，地下恐懼豐富的背叛，因為他們是那些忠實的權威關閉教皇。

Cardinal San was born in Shanghai 88 years ago.

88年前，紅衣主教桑生於上海。

He came to Hong Kong in 1948 just before the Communists took power in China.

1948年，他在共產黨奪取中國政權之前來到香港。

He thinks the Vatican is on the wrong track off Ostpolitik.

他認為梵蒂岡是在錯誤的軌道上，關閉Ostpolitik。

The appeasement policy towards Beijing.

對北京的綏靖政策。

The Pope, John Paul.

教皇，約翰-保羅。

The second the probability.

第二種是概率。

They had very different experience.

他們的經歷截然不同。

Uh, they lived under Nazism then.

呃，他們當時生活在納粹主義之下。

The communism from Russia and the pope comes from South America.

共產主義來自俄羅斯，教皇來自南美。

It's understandable that Pope Francis had sympathy for the Communist because communists in the South America are good people.

教皇方濟各同情共產黨人是可以理解的，因為南美洲的共產黨人是好人。

They come out to defend the poor people under the totalitarian, uh, military government.

他們出來捍衛極權，呃，軍政府下的窮人。

Uh, but now China is under the Communist.

呃，但現在中國在共產黨的上司下。

Uh, the Communists are the persecutor, huh?

呃，共產黨是迫害者，是吧？

Ostpolitik?

Ostpolitik？

Uh, actually, it was a failure in the in Europe, but now they use a method for for China.

呃，其實，這在歐洲是失敗的，但現在他們對中國使用的方法。

So it was a disaster.

所以這是一場災難。

He's been an outspoken critic of the communist regime over the years that could put him in race under the national security law imposed by Beijing.

他多年來一直直言不諱地責備共產黨政權，根據北京實施的國家安全法，這可能會讓他參加比賽。

But he refused to remain silent.

但他拒絕保持沉默。

I would be a liar.

我將是一個金光黨。

E I'm not worried.

我不擔心

Uh, everybody's worried to lose his freedom, huh?

呃，大家都擔心失去自由，是吧？

On board.

在船上。

But that's okay, because, uh, you see way believe in God.

但這沒關係，因為，呃，你看到的方式相信上帝。

Uh, when God gives you a duty, he's going to give you also the strength, uh, to do that duty.

呃，當上帝給你一個責任， 他要給你的力量，呃，做這個責任。

Okay, for more, we have Martin Jakti, W's religion correspondent, joining us Martin Cardinals in just, uh, talked about his point of view.

好了，更多的，我們有馬丁-雅克蒂，W的宗教記者，加入我們馬丁-紅衣主教在只是，呃，談到他的觀點。

And it does seem as if it's morally complex for the Vatican to be engaging with a country like China with its human rights track record.

而對於梵蒂岡來說，與中國這樣一個有人權記錄的國家接觸，似乎在道德上確實很複雜。

What is the point of view of Pope Francis?

教皇方濟各的觀點是什麼？

I think that there is a political concern, and that political concern is How is it that one deals with a government that has had a rough going with the religious group that essentially the Vatican leads or represents?

我認為有一個政治上的關注，這個政治上的關注就是如何處理一個政府與基本上是梵蒂岡上司或代表的宗教團體之間的不愉快？

And the second question is the moral question.

而第二個問題是道德問題。

How is it that the Vatican should position itself in relation with a country that has actually a very well established record off human right violations?

梵蒂岡如何定位自己與一個在侵犯人權方面有良好記錄的國家的關係？

The position off this Vatican.

這個梵蒂岡的位置關。

It's actually one that is fairly understandable, which is that they concentrate on engagement because they think that actually disengagement leaves the communities, the Catholic communities in China at a very serious disadvantage.

其實這是一個相當容易理解的，就是他們集中精力參與，因為他們認為其實脫離了，就會讓社區，中國的天主教社區處於一個非常嚴重的劣勢。

So the position is not perfect.

所以這個位置並不完美。

But that is probably because it is impossible in such a situation to actually produce a perfect solution.

但這可能是因為在這樣的情況下，不可能真正產生一個完美的解決方案。

The issue here is if you have people on the ground that are dependent on the good offices off the Vatican, and then the Vatican has to engage with the Chinese government.

這裡的問題是，如果你在地面上的人依賴於梵蒂岡的斡旋，那麼梵蒂岡就不得不與中國政府接觸。

Obviously, this doesn't please everybody and cardinals, and it's one off them.

顯然，這並不能讓所有人和紅衣主教滿意，這是他們的一關。

Uh, the U.

呃，U.

S is another actor in the same position.

S是另一個相同位置的演員。

Well, you just mentioned the United States.

你剛剛提到了美國

Cardinal Zen had tried to gain an audience at the Vatican with the pope.

禪宗紅衣主教曾試圖在梵蒂岡覲見教皇。

He didn't get one.

他沒有得到一個。

Another person who tried to meet with the pope was US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and he wasn't able to gain an audience.

另一個試圖與教皇見面的人是美國國務卿邁克-蓬佩奧，他沒能獲得覲見。

What was that about?

那是怎麼回事？

Well, I think that you know the issue with cardinals and on and but much more pronounced with Mike Pompeo.

好吧，我想你知道的問題 與紅衣主教和上... ...但更明顯 與邁克・龐培。

It's that they come into the Vatican or they come with conversations with the Vatican.

就是他們進入梵蒂岡，或者是他們與梵蒂岡的對話。

Uh, essentially in the middle off, what are very public battles between China and, uh, regions?

呃，基本上在中關村，中國和，呃，地區之間的非常公開的戰鬥是什麼？

I mean, in the in the in the immediate geographical space, but also sort of an electoral battle in the case of the US, and this is something that the Vatican systematically, and it's not only this Pope has essentially avoided, which is getting involved in what are essentially public campaign.

我的意思是，在在眼前的地理空間，但也算是在美國的情況下的選舉戰，這是梵蒂岡系統性的東西，它不僅是這個教皇基本上避免，這是參與什麼本質上的公共運動。

So this Vatican, it's one, this pope.

所以這個梵蒂岡，它是一個，這個教皇。

It's one that has done most off his policy, his policy work specifically in issues of international affairs.

這是他的政策，他的政策工作具體在國際事務問題上做得最多的一個。

Behind closed doors.

閉門造車。

We find out only months later exactly what is that was happening.

我們在幾個月後才發現，到底是發生了什麼。

So I think that the reaction of census is correct to say that they were parallel.

所以我認為，人口普查的反應是正確的，說它們是平行的。

I mean, the Vatican was avoiding the spotlight into which cardinals and on Mike Pompeo wanted to pull the Vatican in.

我的意思是，梵蒂岡是避免聚光燈到哪些紅衣主教和對邁克-蓬佩奧想拉梵蒂岡在。

One of the things Cardinal Den was talking about was the situation of the climate in China.

紅衣主教登說的一件事是中國的氣候狀況。

And it is a fact that there are bishops that the Vatican recognizes before this agreement from two years ago that the Chinese government does not recognize and these bishops have been operating underground.

而事實是，在兩年前的這份協議之前，有一些梵蒂岡承認的主教，中國政府不承認，這些主教一直在地下活動。

They've suffered that's right for their beliefs.

他們為了自己的信仰，吃過的苦頭那是應該的。

And in fact, my understanding is at least one of them, to my knowledge, was arrested this year.

而事實上，據我所知，他們中至少有一個人在今年被捕。

He was 70.

他是70歲。

He is 70 years old.

他今年70歲了。

Do you feel like some people at least feel as if the Vatican has turned its back on their most faithful in China?

你覺得至少有些人覺得梵蒂岡好像背棄了他們在中國最忠實的信徒？

I think that there is.

我認為有。

There is, you know, justification.

有，你知道，理由。

Probably in the sense that if China is the government, I mean it's actually treating this way.

可能在某種意義上說，如果中國是政府，我的意思是它其實是這樣對待的。

Catholic communities, and particularly bishops and priests appointed by the Vatican without essentially certification off the off the Chinese Communist Party.

天主教團體，特別是梵蒂岡任命的主教和神父，沒有經過中共的基本認證。

Uh, then dealing with the Chinese government is essentially a form of betrayal.

呃，那麼和中國政府打交道，本質上就是一種背叛。

But I think that this leads us in a way back to the first question, which is how is the Vatican to calculate how to protect this communities other than to some degree engaging the Communist Party?

但是我想這又讓我們在某種程度上回到了第一個問題，那就是除了在一定程度上與共產黨接觸之外，梵蒂岡如何計算如何保護這個社區？

So I mean, it's quite clear that simply getting out off the stage and letting the Chinese government do as they please, uh, it's no solution at all.

所以，我的意思是，很明顯，簡單地走出舞臺，讓中國政府為所欲為，呃，這根本不是解決辦法。

It might be very satisfying.

可能會很滿意。

Morally.

在道德上。

It might be very good to be able to say, Well, we have done the right thing in terms of principles, but it leaves all of those people that you just mentioned a very precarious situation.

如果能夠說，我們在原則方面做得很好，可能會很好，但這讓你剛才提到的所有這些人都處於非常危險的境地。

Now we know Cardinal Zen's point of view and feelings.

現在我們知道了樞機禪的觀點和感受。

Um, is there controversy among the church leaders about Pope Francis's decision?

嗯，教會領袖對教皇方濟各的決定有爭議嗎？

Most certainly, Most certainly.

當然了，當然了。

I mean, it's not It's not, it's not.

我的意思是，這不是... ... 這不是，這不是。

It's not a decision.

這不是一個決定。

I mean, the extension off the agreement with China that was taken lightly.

我的意思是，延長與中國的協議，這是輕而易舉的。

Also because there is a very strong internal fight which actually pities bits.

也因為有很強的內鬥，其實可憐位。

Sorry.

對不起，我不知道

Pits, Um, conservatives within the church against many of the people that circulate around the helps the pope's fear.

坑，嗯，保守派在教會內部對許多人，周圍流傳的幫助教皇的恐懼。

So in a way, what Pompeo And now, then then has been saying for really quite a long time, especially in the context of battles that politically have to do a lot with China, as in the U.

所以在某種程度上，蓬佩奧和現在，然後一直在說什麼，真的相當長的時間，特別是在政治上要和中國做很多的戰鬥，如在美國。

S.

S.

Uh, you know, really give ammunition to a lot off the people that are standing there criticizing the Pope.

呃，你知道，真的給彈藥 很多人都站在那裡責備教皇。

Martin.

馬丁。

Jack.

傑克。

Thank you.

謝謝你了

My pleasure.

我的榮幸。