Competition commissioner Makary Divest Anger has long been a thorn in the side of the likes of Apple, Alphabet and Facebook.

競爭專員馬卡里-迪韋斯特-安格爾長期以來一直是蘋果、Alphabet和Facebook等公司的眼中釘。

Now, she says, her proposals will lay down the law, for those companies are finally creating a single market for digital services.

現在，她說，她的建議將奠定法律，因為這些公司最終正在創建一個數字服務的單一市場。

She sat down with our reporter General Doom Allow.

她和本報記者杜允許將軍坐在一起。

Thank you so much for joining us today, Commissioner.

非常感謝你今天參加我們的會議，局長。

It's a pressure now.

現在是一種壓力。

Digitalization is, of course, a very important topic in Europe.

當然，數字化在歐洲是一個非常重要的話題。

And with your Digital Services Act, you would like to see a range of rules imposed on big tech companies like Facebook and Google and Apple rules, like making them share their data with smaller rivals.

而你的《數字服務法》，你希望看到對大的科技公司實施一系列規則，比如Facebook和谷歌以及蘋果的規則，比如讓他們與小的競爭對手分享數據。

What is it that you think that they're doing that is so wrong?

你覺得他們這樣做有什麼不對？

Well, the last time when when our democracies sort of said things you could do things you cannot do That was back in the digital stone age.

好吧，上一次當我們的民主制度說的東西 你可以做的事情，你不能做 那是早在數字石器時代。

That was the year 2000, and no one back then imagined what's what.

那是2000年，當時沒有人想象到什麼是什麼。

What would be the case of our reality today.

我們今天的現實會是什麼情況。

So when you then grow up on you become strong.

所以，當你接著長大，你就會變得強大。

Then, of course, comes responsibility Onda, we need to say to some of these service providers.

然後，當然是責任翁達，我們需要對這些服務商的一些。

You have a responsibility for the way you do business to make sure that people feel Aziz comfortable when they're online as well as when they're offline on that I think is very important.

你有責任為你做生意的方式，以確保人們感到阿齊茲舒適，當他們在線以及當他們離線上，我認為是非常重要的。

And also for these businesses, the alternative is that member states, they make their own legislation.

而且對於這些企業來說，另一種選擇是，成員國，他們自己立法。

You see that?

你看到了嗎？

I think I understand the worries in so many member states right now.

我想我理解現在這麼多成員國的擔憂。

So if you have maybe 27 different kinds of legislation to deal with instead of having one European legislation, and since I don't think that it could be any different, that legislation is coming now, I think I would still prefer to have one set of rules toe live by.

是以，如果你有27種不同的立法要處理，而不是隻有一個歐洲立法，而且我認為它不可能有任何不同，該立法現在就要來了，我想我還是更願意有一套規則來遵守。

But can it keep up with the breakneck speed of tech?

但它能跟上科技的高速發展嗎？

Well, not alone.

嗯，不是一個人。

The details of Services Act will not do it alone.

服務法》的細節不會獨善其身。

I also think that we need to say to some of the gatekeepers, there's there are a number of things that you simply cannot do so that basically regulate from the outset to say this, ABC don't do it and last but not least, to be able to say, Well, we don't want new gatekeepers to arise.

我也認為，我們需要對一些守門人說，有一些事情，你根本不能這樣做，所以，基本上從一開始就規範說，ABC不要這樣做，最後但並非最不重要的，能夠說，好吧，我們不希望出現新的守門人。

We want to make sure that also other digital markets that they stay competitive so that more businesses have a fair chance of presenting their services to us as customers.

我們要確保也其他的數字市場保持競爭力，讓更多的企業有公平的機會把他們的服務呈現給我們這個客戶。

But there isn't there also the argument that, uh, it would also serve competition if we were able to have the conditions here in Europe that would create the equivalent of a European Facebook or a European apple or a European Google?

但是，是不是也有這樣的說法，呃，如果我們能夠在歐洲這裡有條件，創造出相當於歐洲的Facebook或歐洲的蘋果或歐洲的谷歌，這也會有利於競爭？

Why don't we have the equivalent of those companies?

為什麼我們沒有相當於這些公司的企業？

And could regulation be getting in the way?

而監管會不會礙於情面？

Well, I think way failed 2010 20 years ago in providing a really digital single market, because one of the reasons why the Giants are giants today and that also goes for the Chinese giants was that they had a single market.

好吧，我認為方式失敗2010年20年前，在提供一個真正的數字單一市場，因為為什麼巨人是巨頭今天，這也適用於中國巨頭的原因之一是，他們有一個單一市場。

They had a giant home market, while they could grow the strength to become global companies on This is why one side of things.

他們有一個巨大的本土市場，同時他們可以發展實力成為全球性的公司，這也是為什麼一方面的事情。

It's of course, for society to catch up with the digital development.

當然，是為了社會趕上數字化發展的步伐。

But the second thing is to provide a real digital single market also for European businesses to grow and to provide a capital market with sort of mawr risk taking.

但第二件事是為歐洲企業的發展也提供一個真正的數字單一市場，併為資本市場提供一種承擔風險的毛筆。

For instance, venture capital that comes with capital, but also with knowledge about how to how to scale up this company.

比如說，有資本的風險投資，也有如何如何擴大這個公司規模的知識。

Because Europe is incredibly innovative.

因為歐洲的創新能力非常強。

A lot of things are happening, but we need to provide businesses with the market on with the capital needed.

很多事情都在發生，但我們需要為企業提供市場上所需的資金。

Is it your aim to break up these big companies in Europe?

你的目的是要拆散歐洲的這些大公司嗎？

And how would that look by these companies?

那這些公司會怎麼看呢？

I mean, of course, the U.

我的意思是，當然，美國。

S Tech companies.

S科技公司。

Well, I'm somewhat reluctant to that idea.

好吧，我對這個想法有些不情願。

The first thing that will happen with that we would spend, you know, a decade in a courtroom.

第一件事，將發生與 我們會花，你知道，十年在法庭上。

The second thing is that we don't know what would be the outcome.

第二件事是我們不知道結果會是什麼。

Uh, it may be that we just have, like, more giants, Uh, instead of having giants that are regulated on that serves their purpose in the marketplace by giving room for others.

呃，這可能是我們只是有一樣，更多的巨頭， 呃，而不是有巨頭，被監管上，服務於他們的目的 在市場上通過給別人的空間。

I know it's very much a US debates on desire US companies, but I think a proper European approach would be to say you're more than welcome to be successful.

我知道這是非常多的美國辯論的慾望美國公司，但我認為一個適當的歐洲方法將是說你更歡迎成功。

But the thing is, with success comes responsibility, and this is the face that we're in now to say Well, you have to recognize that you have powers beyond anyone else.

但問題是，有了成功就有了責任，這就是我們現在的面子，說好了，你要承認你有超越別人的權力。

And with that comes a responsibility.

而隨之而來的是一種責任。

They're also appealing a ruling that saw and you court overturn your victory against Apple.

他們還在對一項裁決提出上訴，認為和你法院推翻了你對蘋果的勝利。

Apple will now not have to pay back $14.3 billion to Ireland.

蘋果現在將不必向愛爾蘭償還143億美元。

What's going to be the strategy this time around?

這次會有什麼策略？

What argument will use?

會用什麼論據？

Well, of course, we are sort of prime thing is that we respect the courtroom.

嗯，當然，我們是那種首要的事情 是，我們尊重法庭。

Uh, but also here, respectfully, we find that the General Court have made some errors of law that were then appealing.

呃，但也在這裡，恕我直言，我們發現總法院犯了一些法律上的錯誤，當時的上訴。

Um, it is part of the reasoning.

嗯，這也是道理的一部分。

Gets quite technical to get into it.

進入它的技術性相當強。

Uh, the thing that that we're very happy with in the judgment is that the court still say you can do what you have done.

呃，我們對判決書中的內容很滿意 法庭仍然說你可以做你所做的事情。

You can use us your state aid tools.

你可以使用我們的國家援助工具。

Also, when it comes to, uh, to aid being handed out as a tax benefit on you can do your analysis.

此外，當涉及到，呃，援助被派發作為稅收優惠上，你可以做你的分析。

Uh, then, of course, agreement stops.

呃，那麼，當然，協議停止。

But now we'll see what the European Court of Justice will say, given that this is your second term as the competition commissioner, and you've seen you've seen some of these setbacks and we've learned to also recognize as the public how difficult it actually is to regulate very big companies to try and prevent monopolies.

但是現在我們要看看歐洲法院會怎麼說，鑑於這是你作為競爭專員的第二個任期，你已經看到了你已經看到了其中的一些挫折，我們已經學會了也認識到作為公眾，監管非常大的公司試圖防止壟斷實際上是多麼困難。

How would you rate your success as a commissioner?

你如何評價你作為專員的成功？

Well, as they say, it ain't over.

就像他們說的，還沒有結束。

So the fat lady sings, Andi, I have four more years to go, so I love to pick it up when we get there.

所以胖女人唱道，安迪，我還有四年的時間，到了那裡我就愛撿。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝你。

You're welcome.

不客氣