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  • Transcriber: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Camille Martínez

    轉錄者:約瑟夫-傑尼Joseph Geni 審稿人: Camille MartínezCamille Martínez

  • (Music)

    (音樂)

  • (Voice-over) John Lewis: My friends, let us not forget

    約翰-劉易斯我的朋友們,讓我們不要忘記

  • that we are involved in a serious social revolution.

    我們正在參與一場嚴肅的社會革命。

  • We want our freedom, and we want it now.

    我們要自由,現在就要。

  • (Voice-over) JL: When you see something that is not right or fair or just,

    旁白)JL:當你看到一些不正確、不公平、不公正的事情。

  • you have to say something, you have to do something.

    你必須說些什麼, 你必須做一些事情。

  • (Voice-over) JL: It doesn't matter whether you're Black or white,

    不管你是黑人還是白人,這並不重要。

  • we're one people and one family.

    我們是一個民族,一個家庭。

  • (Cheers)

    (乾杯)

  • (Voice-over) JL: One person with a dream, with a vision,

    旁白)JL:一個人有夢想,有願景。

  • can change things.

    可以改變事情。

  • Bryan Stevenson: When people talk about you,

    布萊恩-史蒂文森:當人們談論你的時候。

  • what do you want them to say?

    你想讓他們說什麼?

  • [TED Legacy Project]

    [TED遺產項目]

  • [Congressman John Lewis In conversation with Bryan Stevenson]

    [國會議員約翰-劉易斯在與布萊恩-史蒂文森的談話]

  • BS: Well, this is such a great honor for me to be in this room with you,

    BS:好吧,能和你一起坐在這個房間裡,我真是太榮幸了。

  • to have this conversation.

    來進行這次對話。

  • I can't tell you what it means to me to have this opportunity.

    我不能告訴你有這個機會對我意味著什麼。

  • You represent something so precious to so many of us,

    你對我們很多人來說,代表著如此珍貴的東西。

  • and I just wanted to start by thanking you for that,

    我只是想開始 通過感謝你。

  • for your willingness to wrap your arms around people like me

    感謝你願意為我這樣的人提供幫助。

  • and to make me think that it's possible to do difficult things,

    並讓我覺得做困難的事情是可以的。

  • important things.

    重要的事情。

  • And I just want to start by asking you to talk a little bit

    我想先請你談一談

  • about that experience of growing up in rural Alabama

    關於在阿拉巴馬州農村長大的經歷。

  • in the Black Belt of America

    在美國黑帶

  • and how that cultivated this spirit that shaped your life and your vision.

    以及如何培養了這種精神,塑造了你的人生和願景。

  • I mean, you used to have to pick cotton on your family's farm.

    我是說,你以前要在你家的農場摘棉花。

  • JL: When I used to fuss as a young child,

    JL:我小時候經常大驚小怪。

  • I would complain, "Why this? Why that?"

    我會抱怨:"為什麼這樣?為什麼要這樣?"

  • And my mother would say, "Boy, it's the only thing we can do."

    我媽媽會說,"孩子,這是我們唯一能做的事情。"

  • She said, "I know it's hard work, but what are we going to do?

    她說:"我知道這很辛苦,但我們該怎麼辦呢?

  • We have to make a living."

    我們要謀生。"

  • But I was hoping

    但我希望

  • and almost praying for that day

    幾乎是在祈禱那一天的到來

  • when people wouldn't have to work so hard in the hot sun.

    當人們不用在烈日下辛苦工作的時候。

  • She was hoping also that things would be better,

    她也希望事情能好轉。

  • much better for us as a people

    大有作為

  • and for my family.

    併為我的家人。

  • My mother, she was always thinking ahead.

    我的母親,她總是思前想後。

  • If we'd get up early and go and pick as much cotton as we could,

    如果我們能早點起床,去採摘儘可能多的棉花。

  • we would get more money,

    我們會得到更多的錢。

  • because she knew the cotton would be heavier

    因為她知道棉花會比較重

  • 'cause the dew would be on it.

    因為露水會在上面。

  • So when it was weighed,

    所以當它被稱。

  • money would be increased.

    錢會增加。

  • BS: Your mother sounds really strategic.

    BS:你媽媽聽起來真有策略。

  • JL: My dear mother,

    JL:我親愛的媽媽。

  • one day, she came across a little newspaper in downtown Troy

    有一天,她在特洛伊市中心看到了一份小報紙。

  • that said something about a school in Nashville, Tennessee,

    說的是田納西州納什維爾的一所學校。

  • that Black students could attend.

    黑人學生可以參加。

  • BS: She encouraged you to apply for that,

    BS:她鼓勵你去申請。

  • even though that meant you'd be leaving the house, you'd be leaving the farm,

    即使這意味著你會離開房子, 你會離開農場。

  • you would not be contributing that extra labor.

    你就不會付出額外的勞動。

  • JL: Well, I was prepared and willing to go

    JL:好吧,我是有準備的,也願意去的。

  • to try to do what my folks called "doing better,"

    嘗試做我的鄉親們所說的 "做得更好"

  • to get an education.

    來接受教育。

  • But in the beginning, I wanted to attend Troy State.

    但一開始,我想上特洛伊州立大學。

  • BS: You wanted to desegregate Troy State.

    BS:你想取消特洛伊州的種族隔離。

  • JL: I submitted my application, my high school transcript.

    JL:我提交了我的申請,我的高中成績單。

  • I never heard a word from the school.

    我一直沒有聽到學校的消息。

  • So I wrote a letter to Dr. King.

    所以我給金博士寫了一封信。

  • I didn't tell my mother, my father,

    我沒有告訴我母親,我父親。

  • any of my sisters or brothers, any of my teachers.

    我的任何兄弟姐妹,我的任何老師。

  • I told him I needed his help.

    我告訴他,我需要他的幫助。

  • He wrote me back

    他給我回了信

  • and sent me a round trip Greyhound bus ticket

    並給我寄來了一張灰狗巴士的往返票

  • and invited me to come to Montgomery to meet with him.

    並邀請我去蒙哥馬利和他見面。

  • And I can never, ever forget it.

    而我永遠,永遠也忘不了它。

  • BS: You knew about Dr. King even before the boycott.

    BS:你在抵制之前就知道金博士的事了。

  • You had heard his sermon

    你聽過他的佈道

  • the Apostle "[Paul's Letter] to American Christians."

    使徒"[保羅給美國基督徒的信]"。

  • It's the speech he gives to all the people in Montgomery

    這是他對蒙哥馬利所有的人發表的演說

  • four days after Rosa Parks has been arrested.

    羅莎-帕克斯被捕四天後

  • At the end of the speech, he says,

    在演講的最後,他說。

  • one day, they're going to tell a story

    總有一天,他們會說出一個故事。

  • about a group of people

    一群人

  • in Montgomery, Alabama.

    在阿拉巴馬州蒙哥馬利市。

  • And then he says, of Black people who stood up for their rights,

    然後他說,黑人誰站起來的權利。

  • and when they stood up for their rights, the whole world changed.

    而當他們站出來爭取自己的權利時,整個世界都改變了。

  • And you had an immediate response to that call to action.

    而你對這一號召立即做出了迴應。

  • JL: That message really appealed to me.

    JL:這個資訊真的很吸引我。

  • BS: Yeah.

    BS:是的。

  • JL: It was sort of a social gospel message.

    JL:這算是一種社會福音資訊。

  • BS: Yeah.

    BS:是的。

  • JL: I wanted to do what I could to make things better,

    JL:我想盡我所能讓事情變得更好。

  • 'cause when you see something that is not right or fair or just,

    因為當你看到一些不正確不公平不公正的事情時,

  • you have to say something.

    你必須說些什麼。

  • You have to do something.

    你必須做點什麼。

  • It's like a fire burning up in your bones,

    就像一把火在你的骨子裡燃燒起來。

  • and you cannot be silenced.

    而你不能沉默。

  • BS: That's right.

    BS:沒錯。

  • JL: My mother would have said to me, "Boy, don't get in trouble.

    JL:我媽媽會對我說:"孩子,不要惹麻煩。

  • Don't get in trouble.

    不要惹上麻煩。

  • You can get hurt, you can get killed."

    你可能會受傷,你可能會被殺死。"

  • Dr. King and Rosa Parks and E.D. Nixon

    金博士、羅莎-帕克斯和E.D.尼克松。

  • and others that I read about at that time

    和其他我當時讀到的

  • and later met,

    並在後來遇到。

  • inspired me to get in what I call "good trouble,"

    激發了我的靈感,讓我陷入了所謂的 "好麻煩"。

  • necessary trouble.

    必要的麻煩。

  • And I've been getting in trouble ever since --

    從那以後,我就惹上了麻煩... ...

  • the sit-ins, the Freedom Ride ...

    靜坐,自由行... ...

  • BS: You went to Nashville

    BS:你去了納什維爾

  • and began the work of learning nonviolence.

    並開始了學習非暴力的工作。

  • When did nonviolence become an essential part of your worldview

    什麼時候非暴力成為你世界觀的重要組成部分?

  • and the theology and the activism that you wanted to create?

    以及你想創造的神學和行動主義?

  • JL: Growing up, I wanted to be a minister.

    JL:長大後,我想成為一名牧師。

  • I felt that what Dr. King was saying in his speeches

    我覺得金博士在他的演講中所說的話

  • was in keeping with the teaching of Jesus.

    是符合耶穌的教導的。

  • So I readily accepted this idea --

    所以我欣然接受了這個想法--

  • BS: Yeah. Yeah.

    BS:是的。是的,是的。

  • JL: ... of nonviolence, the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence.

    JL:......的非暴力,非暴力的哲學和學科。

  • We were taught to respect the dignity and the worth

    我們被教導要尊重尊嚴和價值。

  • of every human being

    人的生命力

  • and never give up on anyone;

    並永不放棄任何人。

  • to try to reach them with kindness,

    要儘量用善意去接觸他們。

  • with hope and faith and love.

    帶著希望、信心和愛。

  • So you may beat me, you may arrest me and throw me in jail,

    所以你可以打我,可以抓我,可以把我扔進監獄。

  • but I'm not going to engage in violence.

    但我不打算參與暴力。

  • I'm going to respect you as a human being.

    我要尊重你這個人。

  • BS: And I'm wondering whether that is what gave you the courage

    BS:我想知道這是否是給你勇氣的原因?

  • to endure some of that brutality.

    忍受一些殘酷的待遇。

  • Because a lot of people talk about nonviolence.

    因為很多人都在談論非暴力。

  • They talk about the theology of love.

    他們談論的是愛的神學。

  • But when you're on a bus

    但當你在公車上

  • in Anniston, Alabama,

    在阿拉巴馬州的安妮斯頓。

  • or in Montgomery, Alabama, as you've been,

    或在阿拉巴馬州的蒙哥馬利,因為你已經。

  • surrounded by that mob and surrounded by that hate,

    被那群人包圍,被那仇恨包圍。

  • surrounded by people who you know are prepared to do violent things,

    周圍的人誰你知道是準備做暴力的事情。

  • it's a different dynamic.

    這是一個不同的動態。

  • JL: Yeah. I accepted that.

    JL:是的,我接受了。

  • Dr. King taught us to love.

    金博士教我們去愛。

  • It's in keeping with my Christian faith

    這和我的基督教信仰是一致的

  • to love everybody

    愛大家

  • and never hate,

    而從不恨。

  • because the hate was too heavy a burden to bear.

    因為仇恨的負擔太重,無法承受。

  • BS: But it seems like you were strategic, too.

    BS:不過看來你也是有策略的。

  • You all thought a lot about when and where to go someplace.

    什麼時候去什麼地方,你們都想了很多。

  • It wasn't just, "Oh, here's an opportunity here, let's just do it.

    並不是說,"哦,這裡有一個機會,我們就這樣做。

  • JL: We just didn't jump up one day and decide that we would go to Selma.

    JL:我們只是沒有在某一天跳起來,決定要去塞爾瑪。

  • We checked places out.

    我們檢查了一些地方。

  • Wherever there was a possibility of leadership,

    只要有可能上司的地方。

  • of creating a viral organization,

    的創建病毒式組織。

  • whether you had students,

    你是否有學生。

  • people who were prepared to get out and work and organize.

    準備出去工作和組織的人。

  • And that's what we did.

    我們就是這樣做的。

  • We did everything that we could

    我們做了一切我們能做的

  • to bring attention

    引起注意

  • to a situation that was not good for people

    陷入不利於人們的境地

  • and then we could organize people.

    然後我們可以組織人。

  • There were religious leaders

    有宗教領袖

  • teachers and lawyers and others in these communities and neighborhoods.

    教師和律師以及這些社區和街區的其他人。

  • There would come a time through the training

    通過訓練,會有一段時間

  • and accepting nonviolence,

    並接受非暴力。

  • the philosophy as a way of living,

    哲學作為一種生活方式。

  • as a way of life,

    作為一種生活方式。

  • that you become prepared.

    你要做好準備。

  • BS: It was a lot of rigorous training

    BS:這是一個非常嚴格的訓練。

  • to be prepared to be in those very stressful situations

    要準備好在這些非常緊張的情況下。

  • and maintain that commitment to nonviolence,

    並保持對非暴力的承諾。

  • and I don't think people appreciate

    我不認為人們欣賞

  • how much work went into preparing people for that.

    人們為此做了多少準備工作。

  • JL: Well, it was something that we became committed to,

    JL:嗯,這是我們開始致力於的事情。

  • a chance to go through role playing,

    一個通過角色扮演的機會。

  • social drama,

    社會劇。

  • pretending that you were beating someone

    假裝打人

  • or knocking someone down,

    或把人打倒。

  • someone's blowing smoke in your face

    臉上有光

  • and calling you all types of names,

    並叫你各種類型的名字。

  • training people how to be disciplined

    訓人

  • and not giving up.

    而不放棄。

  • On the Freedom Rides in May of 1961,

    在1961年5月的自由騎行中。

  • when I was 21 years old,

    當我21歲的時候

  • leaving Washington, DC, for the first time

    第一次離開華盛頓特區

  • to go on the Freedom Ride --

    踏上自由之路 --

  • I thought we were going to die.

    我以為我們會死。

  • As a matter of fact,

    事實上

  • I thought I saw death,

    我以為我看到了死亡。

  • but I believe God Almighty kept me here for a reason.

    但我相信全能的上帝讓我來這裡是有原因的。

  • BS: It's a powerful, powerful testimony,

    BS:這是一個強大的、有力的證明。

  • the picture of you, and your head is bloodied,

    你的照片,你的頭上有血跡。

  • this willingness to get back on a bus to do it again.

    這種願意回到公車上再做一次的意願。

  • And they interviewed you after some of the sit-ins,

    在一些靜坐事件後,他們採訪了你。

  • and what was interesting to me about the way you talked about it

    我對你說的方式很感興趣

  • is you were very clear.

    是你很清楚。

  • You said, we're not just trying to do this for the Black people in Nashville.

    你說,我們不僅僅是想為納什維爾的黑人做這件事。

  • We're trying to do this for everybody,

    我們是想為大家做這件事。

  • because they may not realize it yet, but what they're doing is wrong,

    因為他們可能還沒有意識到這一點,但他們的做法是錯誤的。

  • and I wouldn't be the Christian that I claim to be,

    我也不會成為我自稱的基督徒。

  • I wouldn't be the good person that I claimed to be,

    我就不是我自稱的好人了。

  • if I didn't try to help them

    如果我不去幫助他們

  • get past this wrong thing they're doing.

    擺脫他們所做的這件錯事。

  • I think people want redemption.

    我想人們都希望得到救贖。

  • Our faith tradition,

    我們的信仰傳統。

  • we understand the power of redemption.

    我們明白救贖的力量。

  • We preach about it,

    我們講究的是。

  • and we understand that there has to be confession,

    我們明白,必須要有懺悔。

  • there has to be repentance.

    必須要有懺悔。

  • But collectively, as a society, we haven't really embraced that

    但作為一個社會的集體,我們還沒有真正接受這一點。

  • in this country.

    在這個國家。

  • We haven't really wanted to acknowledge the legacy of slavery

    我們並不想承認奴隸制的遺留問題。

  • and the history of lynching and segregation.

    以及私刑和種族隔離的歷史。

  • People want to skip over the apology part,

    人們想跳過道歉的部分。

  • and you still see these Confederate flags and these symbols of resistance.

    你還能看到這些南方聯盟的旗幟 和這些抵抗的象徵。

  • It seems to me part of what is so urgent right now

    在我看來,現在如此緊迫的部分原因是

  • is that we get people to have the courage to say,

    是我們讓人們有勇氣說。

  • "You know, this was wrong, and we have to reject that."

    "你知道,這是錯的,我們必須拒絕。"

  • But you have seen that redemption in ways that I think has been

    但你已經看到了這種救贖的方式,我認為已經被

  • so extraordinary.

    如此非凡。

  • JL: A few short years ago,

    JL:短短几年前。

  • one of the members of the Klan

    三K黨人

  • who beat me and beat my seatmate,

    誰打了我,打了我的同桌。

  • in a little town

    在一個小鎮上

  • called Rock Hill, South Carolina,

    叫做南卡羅來納州的巖山。

  • left us lying in a pool of blood ...

    讓我們躺在血泊中... ...

  • Many years later,

    許多年後。

  • one member of the Klan

    三K黨人

  • and his son

    和他的兒子

  • came to my office in Washington,

    來到我在華盛頓的辦公室。

  • and he said, "I've been a member of the Klan.

    他說:"我曾是三K黨的成員。

  • I'm one of the people that beat you and left you bloody.

    我是打你的人之一,讓你血流成河。

  • I want to apologize."

    我想道歉。"

  • His son started crying, then he started crying.

    他的兒子開始哭,然後他開始哭。

  • He came up with his son to hug me.

    他帶著兒子上來抱我。

  • I hugged them back,

    我也抱著他們。

  • and I saw this gentleman three other times.

    我還見過這位先生三次。

  • It's the power of the way of love, of forgiveness,

    這就是愛的方式,寬恕的力量。

  • to admit it and say, "I'm changed," and move on.

    承認這一點,並說,"我改變了,"並繼續前進。

  • BS: It does seem to me that if we can show people

    BS:在我看來,如果我們能讓人們看到

  • that on the other side of repentance,

    那在懺悔的另一面。

  • on the other side of confession, on the other side of acknowledgment,

    在懺悔的另一面,在承認的另一面。

  • there's something beautiful,

    有一些美麗的東西。

  • like what you experienced with that Klan member,

    就像你和那個三K黨成員的經歷一樣。

  • then maybe they'll find their courage

    也許他們會鼓起勇氣

  • to stand up and talk about the wrongfulness of these things.

    站起來說這些事情的不對。

  • And I've been curious

    我一直很好奇

  • how you would talk about what you learned

    你將如何談論你所學到的東西

  • from your time with Rosa Parks and Dr. King,

    你和羅莎-帕克斯和金博士在一起時的情景。

  • what they taught you, what they left you with

    他們教給你的,他們留給你的東西

  • that has allowed you to do the work you've done.

    讓你能夠做你所做的工作。

  • JL: There's something about these individuals,

    JL:這些人有一些特點。

  • they touch me, they reach me.

    他們觸摸我,他們到達我。

  • If it hadn't been for E.D. Nixon

    如果不是因為E. D. 尼克松的話

  • or Rosa Parks,

    或羅莎-帕克斯。

  • Martin Luther King, Jr,

    馬丁-路德-金

  • Reverend Ralph Abernathy

    Ralph Abernathy牧師