(Music)

(音樂)

(Voice-over) John Lewis: My friends, let us not forget

約翰-劉易斯我的朋友們，讓我們不要忘記

that we are involved in a serious social revolution.

我們正在參與一場嚴肅的社會革命。

We want our freedom, and we want it now.

我們要自由，現在就要。

(Voice-over) JL: When you see something that is not right or fair or just,

旁白）JL：當你看到一些不正確、不公平、不公正的事情。

you have to say something, you have to do something.

你必須說些什麼， 你必須做一些事情。

(Voice-over) JL: It doesn't matter whether you're Black or white,

不管你是黑人還是白人，這並不重要。

we're one people and one family.

我們是一個民族，一個家庭。

(Cheers)

(乾杯)

(Voice-over) JL: One person with a dream, with a vision,

旁白）JL：一個人有夢想，有願景。

can change things.

可以改變事情。

Bryan Stevenson: When people talk about you,

布萊恩-史蒂文森：當人們談論你的時候。

what do you want them to say?

你想讓他們說什麼？

[TED Legacy Project]

[TED遺產項目]

[Congressman John Lewis In conversation with Bryan Stevenson]

[國會議員約翰-劉易斯在與布萊恩-史蒂文森的談話]

BS: Well, this is such a great honor for me to be in this room with you,

BS：好吧，能和你一起坐在這個房間裡，我真是太榮幸了。

to have this conversation.

來進行這次對話。

I can't tell you what it means to me to have this opportunity.

我不能告訴你有這個機會對我意味著什麼。

You represent something so precious to so many of us,

你對我們很多人來說，代表著如此珍貴的東西。

and I just wanted to start by thanking you for that,

我只是想開始 通過感謝你。

for your willingness to wrap your arms around people like me

感謝你願意為我這樣的人提供幫助。

and to make me think that it's possible to do difficult things,

並讓我覺得做困難的事情是可以的。

important things.

重要的事情。

And I just want to start by asking you to talk a little bit

我想先請你談一談

about that experience of growing up in rural Alabama

關於在阿拉巴馬州農村長大的經歷。

in the Black Belt of America

在美國黑帶

and how that cultivated this spirit that shaped your life and your vision.

以及如何培養了這種精神，塑造了你的人生和願景。

I mean, you used to have to pick cotton on your family's farm.

我是說，你以前要在你家的農場摘棉花。

JL: When I used to fuss as a young child,

JL：我小時候經常大驚小怪。

I would complain, "Why this? Why that?"

我會抱怨："為什麼這樣？為什麼要這樣？"

And my mother would say, "Boy, it's the only thing we can do."

我媽媽會說，"孩子，這是我們唯一能做的事情。"

She said, "I know it's hard work, but what are we going to do?

她說："我知道這很辛苦，但我們該怎麼辦呢？

We have to make a living."

我們要謀生。"

But I was hoping

但我希望

and almost praying for that day

幾乎是在祈禱那一天的到來

when people wouldn't have to work so hard in the hot sun.

當人們不用在烈日下辛苦工作的時候。

She was hoping also that things would be better,

她也希望事情能好轉。

much better for us as a people

大有作為

and for my family.

併為我的家人。

My mother, she was always thinking ahead.

我的母親，她總是思前想後。

If we'd get up early and go and pick as much cotton as we could,

如果我們能早點起床，去採摘儘可能多的棉花。

we would get more money,

我們會得到更多的錢。

because she knew the cotton would be heavier

因為她知道棉花會比較重

'cause the dew would be on it.

因為露水會在上面。

So when it was weighed,

所以當它被稱。

money would be increased.

錢會增加。

BS: Your mother sounds really strategic.

BS：你媽媽聽起來真有策略。

JL: My dear mother,

JL：我親愛的媽媽。

one day, she came across a little newspaper in downtown Troy

有一天，她在特洛伊市中心看到了一份小報紙。

that said something about a school in Nashville, Tennessee,

說的是田納西州納什維爾的一所學校。

that Black students could attend.

黑人學生可以參加。

BS: She encouraged you to apply for that,

BS：她鼓勵你去申請。

even though that meant you'd be leaving the house, you'd be leaving the farm,

即使這意味著你會離開房子， 你會離開農場。

you would not be contributing that extra labor.

你就不會付出額外的勞動。

JL: Well, I was prepared and willing to go

JL：好吧，我是有準備的，也願意去的。

to try to do what my folks called "doing better,"

嘗試做我的鄉親們所說的 "做得更好"

to get an education.

來接受教育。

But in the beginning, I wanted to attend Troy State.

但一開始，我想上特洛伊州立大學。

BS: You wanted to desegregate Troy State.

BS：你想取消特洛伊州的種族隔離。

JL: I submitted my application, my high school transcript.

JL：我提交了我的申請，我的高中成績單。

I never heard a word from the school.

我一直沒有聽到學校的消息。

So I wrote a letter to Dr. King.

所以我給金博士寫了一封信。

I didn't tell my mother, my father,

我沒有告訴我母親，我父親。

any of my sisters or brothers, any of my teachers.

我的任何兄弟姐妹，我的任何老師。

I told him I needed his help.

我告訴他，我需要他的幫助。

He wrote me back

他給我回了信

and sent me a round trip Greyhound bus ticket

並給我寄來了一張灰狗巴士的往返票

and invited me to come to Montgomery to meet with him.

並邀請我去蒙哥馬利和他見面。

And I can never, ever forget it.

而我永遠，永遠也忘不了它。

BS: You knew about Dr. King even before the boycott.

BS：你在抵制之前就知道金博士的事了。

You had heard his sermon

你聽過他的佈道

the Apostle "[Paul's Letter] to American Christians."

使徒"[保羅給美國基督徒的信]"。

It's the speech he gives to all the people in Montgomery

這是他對蒙哥馬利所有的人發表的演說

four days after Rosa Parks has been arrested.

羅莎-帕克斯被捕四天後

At the end of the speech, he says,

在演講的最後，他說。

one day, they're going to tell a story

總有一天，他們會說出一個故事。

about a group of people

一群人

in Montgomery, Alabama.

在阿拉巴馬州蒙哥馬利市。

And then he says, of Black people who stood up for their rights,

然後他說，黑人誰站起來的權利。

and when they stood up for their rights, the whole world changed.

而當他們站出來爭取自己的權利時，整個世界都改變了。

And you had an immediate response to that call to action.

而你對這一號召立即做出了迴應。

JL: That message really appealed to me.

JL：這個資訊真的很吸引我。

BS: Yeah.

BS：是的。

JL: It was sort of a social gospel message.

JL：這算是一種社會福音資訊。

BS: Yeah.

BS：是的。

JL: I wanted to do what I could to make things better,

JL：我想盡我所能讓事情變得更好。

'cause when you see something that is not right or fair or just,

因為當你看到一些不正確不公平不公正的事情時，

you have to say something.

你必須說些什麼。

You have to do something.

你必須做點什麼。

It's like a fire burning up in your bones,

就像一把火在你的骨子裡燃燒起來。

and you cannot be silenced.

而你不能沉默。

BS: That's right.

BS：沒錯。

JL: My mother would have said to me, "Boy, don't get in trouble.

JL：我媽媽會對我說："孩子，不要惹麻煩。

Don't get in trouble.

不要惹上麻煩。

You can get hurt, you can get killed."

你可能會受傷，你可能會被殺死。"

Dr. King and Rosa Parks and E.D. Nixon

金博士、羅莎-帕克斯和E.D.尼克松。

and others that I read about at that time

和其他我當時讀到的

and later met,

並在後來遇到。

inspired me to get in what I call "good trouble,"

激發了我的靈感，讓我陷入了所謂的 "好麻煩"。

necessary trouble.

必要的麻煩。

And I've been getting in trouble ever since --

從那以後，我就惹上了麻煩... ...

the sit-ins, the Freedom Ride ...

靜坐，自由行... ...

BS: You went to Nashville

BS：你去了納什維爾

and began the work of learning nonviolence.

並開始了學習非暴力的工作。

When did nonviolence become an essential part of your worldview

什麼時候非暴力成為你世界觀的重要組成部分？

and the theology and the activism that you wanted to create?

以及你想創造的神學和行動主義？

JL: Growing up, I wanted to be a minister.

JL：長大後，我想成為一名牧師。

I felt that what Dr. King was saying in his speeches

我覺得金博士在他的演講中所說的話

was in keeping with the teaching of Jesus.

是符合耶穌的教導的。

So I readily accepted this idea --

所以我欣然接受了這個想法--

BS: Yeah. Yeah.

BS：是的。是的，是的。

JL: ... of nonviolence, the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence.

JL：......的非暴力，非暴力的哲學和學科。

We were taught to respect the dignity and the worth

我們被教導要尊重尊嚴和價值。

of every human being

人的生命力

and never give up on anyone;

並永不放棄任何人。

to try to reach them with kindness,

要儘量用善意去接觸他們。

with hope and faith and love.

帶著希望、信心和愛。

So you may beat me, you may arrest me and throw me in jail,

所以你可以打我，可以抓我，可以把我扔進監獄。

but I'm not going to engage in violence.

但我不打算參與暴力。

I'm going to respect you as a human being.

我要尊重你這個人。

BS: And I'm wondering whether that is what gave you the courage

BS：我想知道這是否是給你勇氣的原因？

to endure some of that brutality.

忍受一些殘酷的待遇。

Because a lot of people talk about nonviolence.

因為很多人都在談論非暴力。

They talk about the theology of love.

他們談論的是愛的神學。

But when you're on a bus

但當你在公車上

in Anniston, Alabama,

在阿拉巴馬州的安妮斯頓。

or in Montgomery, Alabama, as you've been,

或在阿拉巴馬州的蒙哥馬利，因為你已經。

surrounded by that mob and surrounded by that hate,

被那群人包圍，被那仇恨包圍。

surrounded by people who you know are prepared to do violent things,

周圍的人誰你知道是準備做暴力的事情。

it's a different dynamic.

這是一個不同的動態。

JL: Yeah. I accepted that.

JL：是的，我接受了。

Dr. King taught us to love.

金博士教我們去愛。

It's in keeping with my Christian faith

這和我的基督教信仰是一致的

to love everybody

愛大家

and never hate,

而從不恨。

because the hate was too heavy a burden to bear.

因為仇恨的負擔太重，無法承受。

BS: But it seems like you were strategic, too.

BS：不過看來你也是有策略的。

You all thought a lot about when and where to go someplace.

什麼時候去什麼地方，你們都想了很多。

It wasn't just, "Oh, here's an opportunity here, let's just do it.

並不是說，"哦，這裡有一個機會，我們就這樣做。

JL: We just didn't jump up one day and decide that we would go to Selma.

JL：我們只是沒有在某一天跳起來，決定要去塞爾瑪。

We checked places out.

我們檢查了一些地方。

Wherever there was a possibility of leadership,

只要有可能上司的地方。

of creating a viral organization,

的創建病毒式組織。

whether you had students,

你是否有學生。

people who were prepared to get out and work and organize.

準備出去工作和組織的人。

And that's what we did.

我們就是這樣做的。

We did everything that we could

我們做了一切我們能做的

to bring attention

引起注意

to a situation that was not good for people

陷入不利於人們的境地

and then we could organize people.

然後我們可以組織人。

There were religious leaders

有宗教領袖

teachers and lawyers and others in these communities and neighborhoods.

教師和律師以及這些社區和街區的其他人。

There would come a time through the training

通過訓練，會有一段時間

and accepting nonviolence,

並接受非暴力。

the philosophy as a way of living,

哲學作為一種生活方式。

as a way of life,

作為一種生活方式。

that you become prepared.

你要做好準備。

BS: It was a lot of rigorous training

BS：這是一個非常嚴格的訓練。

to be prepared to be in those very stressful situations

要準備好在這些非常緊張的情況下。

and maintain that commitment to nonviolence,

並保持對非暴力的承諾。

and I don't think people appreciate

我不認為人們欣賞

how much work went into preparing people for that.

人們為此做了多少準備工作。

JL: Well, it was something that we became committed to,

JL：嗯，這是我們開始致力於的事情。

a chance to go through role playing,

一個通過角色扮演的機會。

social drama,

社會劇。

pretending that you were beating someone

假裝打人

or knocking someone down,

或把人打倒。

someone's blowing smoke in your face

臉上有光

and calling you all types of names,

並叫你各種類型的名字。

training people how to be disciplined

訓人

and not giving up.

而不放棄。

On the Freedom Rides in May of 1961,

在1961年5月的自由騎行中。

when I was 21 years old,

當我21歲的時候

leaving Washington, DC, for the first time

第一次離開華盛頓特區

to go on the Freedom Ride --

踏上自由之路 --

I thought we were going to die.

我以為我們會死。

As a matter of fact,

事實上

I thought I saw death,

我以為我看到了死亡。

but I believe God Almighty kept me here for a reason.

但我相信全能的上帝讓我來這裡是有原因的。

BS: It's a powerful, powerful testimony,

BS：這是一個強大的、有力的證明。

the picture of you, and your head is bloodied,

你的照片，你的頭上有血跡。

this willingness to get back on a bus to do it again.

這種願意回到公車上再做一次的意願。

And they interviewed you after some of the sit-ins,

在一些靜坐事件後，他們採訪了你。

and what was interesting to me about the way you talked about it

我對你說的方式很感興趣

is you were very clear.

是你很清楚。

You said, we're not just trying to do this for the Black people in Nashville.

你說，我們不僅僅是想為納什維爾的黑人做這件事。

We're trying to do this for everybody,

我們是想為大家做這件事。

because they may not realize it yet, but what they're doing is wrong,

因為他們可能還沒有意識到這一點，但他們的做法是錯誤的。

and I wouldn't be the Christian that I claim to be,

我也不會成為我自稱的基督徒。

I wouldn't be the good person that I claimed to be,

我就不是我自稱的好人了。

if I didn't try to help them

如果我不去幫助他們

get past this wrong thing they're doing.

擺脫他們所做的這件錯事。

I think people want redemption.

我想人們都希望得到救贖。

Our faith tradition,

我們的信仰傳統。

we understand the power of redemption.

我們明白救贖的力量。

We preach about it,

我們講究的是。

and we understand that there has to be confession,

我們明白，必須要有懺悔。

there has to be repentance.

必須要有懺悔。

But collectively, as a society, we haven't really embraced that

但作為一個社會的集體，我們還沒有真正接受這一點。

in this country.

在這個國家。

We haven't really wanted to acknowledge the legacy of slavery

我們並不想承認奴隸制的遺留問題。

and the history of lynching and segregation.

以及私刑和種族隔離的歷史。

People want to skip over the apology part,

人們想跳過道歉的部分。

and you still see these Confederate flags and these symbols of resistance.

你還能看到這些南方聯盟的旗幟 和這些抵抗的象徵。

It seems to me part of what is so urgent right now

在我看來，現在如此緊迫的部分原因是

is that we get people to have the courage to say,

是我們讓人們有勇氣說。

"You know, this was wrong, and we have to reject that."

"你知道，這是錯的，我們必須拒絕。"

But you have seen that redemption in ways that I think has been

但你已經看到了這種救贖的方式，我認為已經被

so extraordinary.

如此非凡。

JL: A few short years ago,

JL：短短几年前。

one of the members of the Klan

三K黨人

who beat me and beat my seatmate,

誰打了我，打了我的同桌。

in a little town

在一個小鎮上

called Rock Hill, South Carolina,

叫做南卡羅來納州的巖山。

left us lying in a pool of blood ...

讓我們躺在血泊中... ...

Many years later,

許多年後。

one member of the Klan

三K黨人

and his son

和他的兒子

came to my office in Washington,

來到我在華盛頓的辦公室。

and he said, "I've been a member of the Klan.

他說："我曾是三K黨的成員。

I'm one of the people that beat you and left you bloody.

我是打你的人之一，讓你血流成河。

I want to apologize."

我想道歉。"

His son started crying, then he started crying.

他的兒子開始哭，然後他開始哭。

He came up with his son to hug me.

他帶著兒子上來抱我。

I hugged them back,

我也抱著他們。

and I saw this gentleman three other times.

我還見過這位先生三次。

It's the power of the way of love, of forgiveness,

這就是愛的方式，寬恕的力量。

to admit it and say, "I'm changed," and move on.

承認這一點，並說，"我改變了，"並繼續前進。

BS: It does seem to me that if we can show people

BS：在我看來，如果我們能讓人們看到

that on the other side of repentance,

那在懺悔的另一面。

on the other side of confession, on the other side of acknowledgment,

在懺悔的另一面，在承認的另一面。

there's something beautiful,

有一些美麗的東西。

like what you experienced with that Klan member,

就像你和那個三K黨成員的經歷一樣。

then maybe they'll find their courage

也許他們會鼓起勇氣

to stand up and talk about the wrongfulness of these things.

站起來說這些事情的不對。