Liz Ogbu: So Lisa,

莉茲·奧格布：那麼，麗莎，

Apple is on target to become carbon neutral

蘋果公司的目標是在 2030 年之前

across its entire business and manufacturing supply chain

在整個企業和上游供應鏈中

by 2030.

實現碳中和。

Can you explain exactly what that means?

你能解釋一下那意味著什麼嗎？

Lisa Jackson: Sure.

麗莎·傑克遜：當然可以。

So today Apple is carbon neutral for all of our own operations.

目前蘋果整個企業 本身的營運已達碳中和。

And we're running on 100 percent renewable energy

此外，我們的企業園區、

for our corporate campuses,

專賣店

for our stores

和數據中心

and for our data centers.

使用的是 100% 的可再生能源。

So we know how to do this work.

因此我們知道如何進行這項工作。

The challenge for 2030 is to convert our supply chain,

2030 年的挑戰是將我們的供應鏈 轉為使用再生能源。

and that work has already begun.

而這項工作已經開始了。

We already have 70 suppliers,

我們的供應鏈中已經有 70 家供應商，

over eight gigawatts of energy coming online

使用超過 80 億瓦的再生能源。

in our supply chain,

我們下一個動作

and then our last piece

就是要讓我們的客戶

will be to convert the energy that our customers use

為蘋果產品充電時，

to charge our devices

改用潔淨能源。

to clean energy.

莉茲：為了實現這些目標，

LO: What are some of the biggest changes

蘋果需要在營運方面

that Apple's going to need to make in its business operations

做出哪些重大的改變？

in order to be able to achieve those goals?

麗莎：試想，如果蘋果產品 所使用的原料

LJ: So imagine if instead of mining material

不是開採而得的處女原料，

to go into Apple products,

而是回收原料；

we actually started with recycled material.

也就是說，我們的原料供應

So we're not going all the way back to the mine

不需要從礦區經過冶煉、運輸、加工。

through smelting, transportation, processing.

取而代之，我們只是將回收材料 做某種程度的加工，

Instead, we're really talking about reprocessing to some degree

然後再製成我們的產品。

and putting that material right back into products --

這對於衝突金屬或稀土族金屬的 回收利用來說極其重要。

super important with things like conflict metals or rare earths.

蘋果公司已經連續多年 採取了這樣的策略。

So Apple has been doing that work now for several years.

我們已經承諾會用

We've actually promised

回收和再生的材料 來製造我們所有的產品。

that we want to make all of our products out of recycled and renewable materials.

所以這種投資

And so that investment

也意味著我們可以消除

also means we get to take away all the carbon emissions

所有礦藏開採到製成原料的相關排放。

associated with everything up until the point of the recycled material.

莉茲：我發現你其實 有一個非常有趣的觀點，

LO: So it strikes me that you actually hold a really interesting perspective.

你現在在蘋果公司

You know, you're now at Apple

處理很多企業在這方面的相關工作。

and, like, deep in the business world around these things,

但你過去也曾在歐巴馬時期

but formerly, you actually led the US Environmental Protection Agency

領導過美國環境保護署，

under the Obama administration,

所以你也知道政府的觀點。

so you've seen the government side as well.

那麼在你看來，

What, in your mind, is the right way

我們應該如何正確看待 國家和市場在應對氣候危機中

to look at the respective roles of the state and the market

各自所扮演的角色？

in fighting the climate crisis?

麗莎：我不認為企業可以取代

LJ: I don't think there's anything that business can do

政府和領導的角色。

that replaces the role of government and leadership.

沒錯，我帶過環保署，

Yes, I ran the EPA,

但事實上在我成為署長之前，

but the other part of my history is I worked there almost 20 years

我在那裡工作了將近 20 年。

before I became the head of the EPA.

我親身體會到，

And you see firsthand, right,

保護公民的責任其實 必須只能由政府來承擔。

that only government is really charged with protecting its citizens.

說到保護人民， 我們聯想到的總是軍隊。

We always think protection, and we think the military,

但我認為環保署、

but I think the protection of the Environmental Protection Agency

加州空氣品質委員會，

or the Air Quality Board in California

或當地衛生部門

or a local health department

對轄區人民日常生活的保障

is as important to the day-to-day life of the people in that jurisdiction

與其他武力保全的保護同樣重要。

as anything that the other security-type protection can provide.

企業則是另一回事。

Now, business is a different story.

我認為企業有很重要的領導作用，

I think business has an incredibly important role to play in leading,

尤其是當前的時刻。

especially at this time.

因此，當蘋果公司宣布 2030 年實現碳中和的目標時

So when Apple said its goal is 2030 carbon neutral --

——顯然聯合國的目標 是在 2050 年達成碳中和——

obviously the UN is saying 2050 carbon neutral --

我們決定挑戰自己，盡可能加快步伐，

we decided to challenge ourselves to go as fast as we could possibly do it

這樣其他企業就不會有藉口說：

so that other businesses wouldn't have an excuse to say,

「我需要遠遠更長的時間 才能實現這個目標。」

"I need longer.

我很高興在這個時刻

I need much, much longer."

看到人們突然意識到

I think it's great to see this moment

氣候變化政策不能強迫，

where suddenly there seems to be a realization

而必須是「聽其自然」的——

that climate change policy cannot be foisted on others,

我想不到更好的詞來代替。

but that, in fact, it has to be organic,

這也不是個二選一的問題。

you know, for lack of a better word.

我們從小就被灌輸一個奇怪的觀念： 你要成功，就無法總是做對的事；

And it's not an either-or.

總是做對的事就不能成功。

It's always been this weird, you know, belief that we're taught from little

這兩者沒有衝突， 那是個錯誤的選擇題。

that you can either be successful or you can do the right thing.

莉茲：雖然很長一段時間以來， 我們都在談正義，

There's no difference between the two; it's a false choice.

但我認為，直到最近， 這種與環境和氣候相關的

LO: Although a lot of us have been talking about justice for some time,

正義的概念

it is only recently that I think

才開始在類似這樣的 論壇上被公開討論。

this idea of justice as it relates to the environment and climate

你個人將系統性的種族主義 和氣候變化描述為

is making appearance in a forum such as this.

一個相互關聯的問題。

You've personally described systemic racism and climate change

可以針對這方面多談一下嗎？

as interconnected issues,

麗莎：對我來說，二者是一樣的。

and I think it would be great to hear more.

沒有真正的正義就沒有氣候正義。

LJ: To me, they're just the same thing.

沒有任何一種氣候變遷的補救措施

There is no climate justice without real justice.

是不涉及正義的。

There is no climate change remedy that is going to be made and stick

有時候我越來越認為，

that doesn't involve justice.

我們該因應的不是氣候變遷，

And sometimes, more and more, I'm starting to think

而是應該解決正義和不公的問題，

that we shouldn't attack climate change,

如果我們這樣做， 氣候變遷的問題就會自然會解決。

we should attack justice and injustice,

對我來說，這可以歸結為

and if we did, climate change would take care of itself.

讓人們重新聚焦於解決方案的討論，

For me, it's always come down to

讓受氣候變遷衝擊最大的社區

restoring people to the center of the discussion of solutions

重新回到

and restoring representation

制定解決方案的談判桌上。

for the communities most impacted by climate change

莉茲：謝謝你。

at the table of solution-making.

今天很高興能跟你對話，

LO: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

期待著看你如何推動

It's been a real pleasure to speak with you today,

你剛才提到的這些措施。

and I look forward to seeing

麗莎：謝謝你一直以來的發聲。

how you advanced the efforts you talked about.

我認為重要的是，有更多 像我們這樣的有色人種領導者

LJ: And thank you for the voice you've been.

能像你那樣為正義發聲。

I think it's super important that leadership look like us,

謝謝。

but also sound like you.

So thank you.