Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

已審核 字幕已審核
  • I was born in Den Bosch,

    我出生在荷蘭的希罗尼穆斯·波希

  • where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.

    畫家希罗尼穆斯·波希的姓 波希 指的就是這個地方

  • And so I've always been very fond of this painter

    我一直很喜歡這位

  • who lived and worked in the 15th century.

    15 世紀的畫家

  • And what is interesting about him in relation to morality

    我對他的道德觀非常感興趣

  • is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,

    他正好生在一個宗教影響力日漸衰弱的時代

  • and he was sort of wondering, I think,

    我想 他也會覺得有點疑惑

  • what would happen with society

    社會會怎樣發展

  • if there was no religion or if there was less religion.

    要是沒有宗教,或者宗教響力不足的話

  • And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"

    所以他畫了一幅非常著名的畫,叫"樂園"

  • which some have interpreted

    有些人認為這畫描繪的是

  • as being humanity before the Fall,

    阿當和夏娃被逐出伊甸園之前的人性

  • or being humanity without any Fall at all.

    或者是如果他們從未被逐出伊甸園的人性

  • And so it makes you wonder,

    所以這不禁讓人想問

  • what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,

    如果人類沒有嚐禁果 那分辨是非的果實的話

  • and what kind of morality would we have?

    我們又會有怎樣的道德觀呢?

  • Much later, as a student,

    後來 那時我還是個學生

  • I went to a very different garden,

    我去了一個非常特別的公園

  • a zoological garden in Arnhem

    那是在荷蘭阿納姆的一個動物園

  • where we keep chimpanzees.

    那裏養著幾隻黑猩猩

  • This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.

    照片中的是年輕時候的我和小黑猩猩

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • And I discovered there

    在那裏我發現

  • that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.

    黑猩猩非常渴望權力 針對這點 我寫了一本書

  • And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research

    在當時很多研究都把重心

  • was on aggression and competition.

    放在動物的侵略性和競爭性

  • I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,

    我就把動物界的全貌展現出來

  • and humanity included,

    其中包含了人性

  • was that deep down we are competitors,

    因為說到底 我們也都在互相競爭

  • we are aggressive,

    我們也有侵略性

  • we're all out for our own profit basically.

    基本上我們都在爭取自己的利益

  • This is the launch of my book.

    這是我出版的書

  • I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,

    我不知道黑猩猩讀懂了多少

  • but they surely seemed interested in the book.

    不過 看起來他們對這本書非常感興趣

  • Now in the process

    現在 在我做

  • of doing all this work on power and dominance

    關於權力、支配關係以及

  • and aggression and so on,

    侵略性等的研究過程之中

  • I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.

    我發現黑猩猩在爭鬥後會和好

  • And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.

    現在你看到的是兩隻剛打完架的公黑猩猩

  • They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.

    最後 它們在樹上著彼此的手

  • And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree

    在我拍完這張照片的下一秒鐘 它們一起來到樹枝上

  • and they kissed and embraced each other.

    親吻和擁抱對方

  • Now this is very interesting

    我覺得非常有趣

  • because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,

    因為當時我只想著競爭和侵略

  • and so it wouldn't make any sense.

    所以這看起來完全沒道理

  • The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.

    重要的明明是輸贏

  • But why would you reconcile after a fight?

    那打完架為甚麼又要和好呢?

  • That doesn't make any sense.

    這實在說不通

  • This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.

    這是倭黑猩猩處理的方式 它們每件事都可以扯上性

  • And so they also reconcile with sex.

    所以它們和好的方式是做愛

  • But the principle is exactly the same.

    這中間的道理是一樣的

  • The principle is that you have

    就是當你有一段

  • a valuable relationship

    很重要的關係

  • that is damaged by conflict,

    而這關係因為衝突而被破壞了

  • so you need to do something about it.

    所以你需要去處理這件事

  • So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,

    所以我對整個動物界的看法

  • and including humans also,

    還有對人類的看法

  • started to change at that time.

    就在那時候開始有了轉變

  • So we have this image

    所以我們可以

  • in political science, economics, the humanities,

    從政治科學、經濟學、人文科學

  • philosophy for that matter,

    以及哲學的角度來看這整件事

  • that man is a wolf to man.

    人就像一匹狼

  • And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.

    天性其實是很惡劣

  • I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.

    我想這樣形容其實對狼是很不公平

  • The wolf is, after all,

    畢竟狼是

  • a very cooperative animal.

    一種很擅於合作的動物

  • And that's why many of you have a dog at home,

    所以才會有那麼多人在家裏養狗

  • which has all these characteristics also.

    因為狗也是非常擅於合作的

  • And it's really unfair to humanity,

    其實這對人性也是個不公平的描述

  • because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic

    因為人性包含更多的是合作性和同理心

  • than given credit for.

    只是我們沒太強調而已

  • So I started getting interested in those issues

    所以我開始對這些問題產生興趣

  • and studying that in other animals.

    並且開始研究其它動物

  • So these are the pillars of morality.

    這是道德的支柱

  • If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"

    如果你問,道德是基於什麼東西?

  • these are the two factors that always come out.

    這答案總是脫離不了兩個因素

  • One is reciprocity,

    一個是互惠

  • and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.

    與之關聯的是正義和公平

  • And the other one is empathy and compassion.

    另一個因素是同理心和同情心

  • And human morality is more than this,

    人類的道德比這複雜多了

  • but if you would remove these two pillars,

    不過要是沒有了這兩個支柱

  • there would be not much remaining I think.

    我想其它也沒剩下太多其它的了

  • And so they're absolutely essential.

    我想就不會有所謂的人性了

  • So let me give you a few examples here.

    讓我給大家舉幾個例子

  • This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center

    這是 耶克斯靈長類動物中心在很久以前拍的影片

  • where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.

    人們在訓練黑猩猩互相合作

  • So this is already about a hundred years ago

    所以 大概是一百年前

  • that we were doing experiments on cooperation.

    人們就已經在做關於合作的實驗

  • What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,

    你可以看到這兩隻年輕的黑猩猩 它們有個箱子

  • and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.

    這箱子的重量 光靠其中一隻黑猩猩是拉不動的

  • And of course, there's food on the box.

    當然 箱子上面放了一些食物

  • Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.

    不然它們不會拉得那麼使勁

  • And so they're bringing in the box.

    它們現在正在拉那個箱子

  • And you can see that they're synchronized.

    你看 它們動作一致

  • You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.

    你可以看到它們同時使力 一起拉動箱子

  • It's already a big advance over many other animals

    這相對於其它動物 已經是一個很大的優勢了

  • who wouldn't be able to do that.

    很多動物都不能做到

  • And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,

    接下來你會看到一個更有趣的畫面

  • because now one of the two chimps has been fed.

    現在把兩隻黑猩猩中的其中一隻餵飽

  • So one of the two is not really interested

    所以這隻猩猩對拉箱子

  • in the task anymore.

    已經沒什麼興趣了

  • (Laughter)

    (笑)

  • (Laughter)

    (笑)

  • (Laughter)

    (笑)

  • Now look at what happens at the very end of this.

    注意看最後發生甚麼事

  • (Laughter)

    (笑)

  • He takes basically everything.

    它幾乎拿走所有的食物了

  • (Laughter)

    (笑)

  • So there are two interesting parts about this.

    這裡有兩個很有趣的部分

  • One is that the chimp on the right

    第一個是 右邊的這隻黑猩猩

  • has a full understanding he needs the partner --

    它很清楚它需要它的夥伴

  • so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.

    這說明它能理解合作的重要性

  • The second one is that the partner is willing to work

    第二個是 這個夥伴也願意幫助

  • even though he's not interested in the food.

    即使它對那些食物已經不感興趣

  • Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.

    為什麼呢? 這該和互惠有關

  • There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals

    在靈長類和一些動物身上 其實有很多證據能證明

  • that they return favors.

    它們會報恩

  • So he will get a return favor

    所以在將來

  • at some point in the future.

    它會得到回報

  • And so that's how this all operates.

    這就是動物之間相互幫助的原因

  • We do the same task with elephants.

    我們對大象也做了同樣的實驗

  • Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.

    對大象做實驗可是很危險的

  • Another problem with elephants

    還有一個問題就是

  • is that you cannot make an apparatus

    你沒辦法弄一個一隻大象

  • that is too heavy for a single elephant.

    無法獨立拉動的裝置

  • Now you can probably make it,

    其實是可以做到的

  • but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.

    只是我想那東西還是不大可靠

  • And so what we did in that case --

    所以我們採取了別的方法

  • we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --

    我們在泰國幫 喬希·普拉尼克做了這樣一個實驗

  • is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.

    我們用一條繩子圍著裝置

  • And if you pull on this side of the rope,

    如果只拉繩子的一端

  • the rope disappears on the other side.

    另一邊就會往後縮

  • So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.

    所以兩隻大象必須同時撿起繩子拉

  • Otherwise nothing is going to happen

    不然這裝置就不會動

  • and the rope disappears.

    而繩子也會縮到裝置後面

  • And the first tape you're going to see

    在第一段錄影裏你會看到

  • is two elephants who are released together

    兩隻大象一起被放出

  • arrive at the apparatus.

    來到裝置面前

  • The apparatus is on the left with food on it.

    裝置在畫面左邊 上面放著食物

  • And so they come together, they arrive together,

    它們同一時間被放出 一起到達

  • they pick it up together and they pull together.

    然後一起撿起繩子 一起拉動繩子

  • So it's actually fairly simple for them.

    對它們來說 這其實相當簡單

  • There they are.

    它們做到了

  • And so that's how they bring it in.

    它們就是這樣把裝置拉過來

  • But now we're going to make it more difficult.

    現在我們要增加難度

  • Because the whole purpose of this experiment

    因為這個實驗的目的是在於

  • is to see how well they understand cooperation.

    找出大象對合作的理解程度

  • Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?

    比如說 它們能不能達到跟黑猩猩一樣的理解程度

  • And so what we do in the next step

    我們的下一步是

  • is we release one elephant before the other,

    先放其中一隻大象

  • and that elephant needs to be smart enough

    如果這隻大象夠聰明的話

  • to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --

    它會在那裏等 不會拉那繩子

  • because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.

    因為如果他拉了 另一端會往後縮 實驗也就結束

  • Now this elephant does something illegal

    現在 這隻大象犯規了

  • that we did not teach it.

    我們沒有教它這樣做

  • But it shows the understanding that he has,

    但是這顯示它明白

  • because he puts his big foot on the rope,

    因為它踩著繩子的一端

  • stands on the rope and waits there for the other,

    就站在繩子上等另一隻大象過來

  • and then the other is going to do all the work for him.

    等另一隻大象幫它把東西拉過來

  • So it's what we call freeloading.

    這就是我們所說的佔人家便宜

  • (Laughter)

    (笑)

  • But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.

    但是這顯示這隻大象很聰明

  • They develop several of these alternative techniques

    它們想出好幾種方法

  • that we did not approve of necessarily.

    我們不認為這些是有必要的

  • So the other elephant is now coming

    現在另一隻大象也過來了

  • and is going to pull it in.

    準備要把東西拉過來

  • Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.

    看另一隻 它當然不客氣地吃