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Eric Green: Okay, well, it's a pleasure to have Kathy
Hudson here. I introduced the topic briefly with a slide in my director's report, but
we specifically wanted to have Kathy come and talk to council. I know council would
be interested in this topic, but also, it really is an interesting chapter. I didn't
even know what the title of her talk was going to be, but it really is an interesting story
to be told, how this played out. I will tell you, Kathy put in countless hours, if not
days and days, of effort navigating a very complicated circumstance. I, and several of
us from NHGRI, in particular Laura Rodriguez and Mark Guyer, and a couple others, were
quite involved on a regular basis on phone calls with Kathy as she sort of used us as
partners, and -- but as advisors, and helped to sort of navigate what was a much more complicated
quest for her than it was for us. But I saw enough of the front line of the story to just
see how challenging it was, and Kathy was just masterful at it in many ways. I also
think that the perspective that she co-authored with Francis, although I'm sure she did most
of the writing, was fantastic in the end, and if you haven't read that, you really should.
But I am going to let her just tell this story, but I really thought it would be special.
The timing couldn't be any better for a council presentation directly from Kathy on this interesting
story, so, Kathy.
Kathy Hudson: Thanks, Eric, for the invitation, and it's
nice to be here with you all, with some friendly, familiar faces around this table and in the
back of the room. Thanks very much.
So this is -- has been an interesting story to be a part of over the last several months.
I'll start with -- uh-oh. So I will start with a little bit of background, which I'm
sure you're all very familiar with, about Henrietta Lacks. She was born in 1920. At
the young age of 31 she was being treated at Hopkins for an aggressive form of cervical
cancer. Researchers took cells from her, and ended up being able to successfully start
a cell line, the first human cell line, as it turns out. The family, of course, has been
dealing with this situation ever since they learned that their mother's cells had been
used in this way. So how her identity became known, and how the family's identity became
known, I think, is relevant here.
So, in 1951, George Gey at Hopkins was able to get the HeLa cell line to grow in culture.
In 1971, there was a commentary, actually an obituary, published in "Obstetrics and
Gynecology," that identified Henrietta Lacks and included a photograph of her. The obituary
was of George Gey, and it was written by Howard Jones, who was otherwise known to many of
you as the father of IBF. In 1976 Victor McKusick, the father of human medical genetics, published
a paper describing the Lacks' pedigree, and specifically, was looking at HLA typing because,
at the time, it had become well-known that many later derived cell lines were contaminated
with HeLa, and so if you get any cell line near HeLa, HeLa takes over. And so Victor
McKusick and his team contacted family members and had them come back to Johns Hopkins to
provide blood samples. If you've read the book, "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks,"
you get a perspective of how there was a lack of clarity on the family's -- from the family's
perspective in terms of what exactly they were being asked to provide and why. So there
was a perception that they were being tested to find out whether or not they might have
the same disease that their mother died of.
In 1997 there was a documentary, and then probably most importantly for the general
public's understanding of this situation and identification of who the family is, and who
Henrietta Lacks was, was the publication in 2010 of "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks."
So how many people in the room have read "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks"? It seems
like you can't even get on an airplane nowadays without seeing somebody reading the "The Immortal
Life of Henrietta Lacks." So it is very, very, very widely known.
So if you do a Google search today for HeLa, you'll generate 2.5 million results. There
have been 74,000 scientific publications using HeLa cells and mentioning that. In the last
10 years, most of the Nobel prizes have used HeLa cells as a part of their work, and even
our youngest scientists, of course, are using HeLa cells; and here are two examples from
the Intel Science Search and from the Siemens Competition.
So I don't think that many of us -- you know, all of us read the book, but I don't think
many of us gave much thought to what we were doing in our laboratories and the connection
to the family until March of this year when researchers in Germany posted the first whole
genome HeLa sequence in EBI, and, of course, it was mirrored in NCBI. Fairly quickly the
Twitter world lit up. Rebecca was aware that the sequence had been published. Rebecca Skloot,
the author of the book, was aware that the sequence was posted. She contacted the family,
and the family requested that the sequence be taken down. And, in fact, the authors agreed
to have the sequence taken down, and it was taken down quite rapidly, both from EBI and
NCBI.
As we started to look into the situation, we learned that there was another publication
pending with Nature that was funded by NHGRI. Of course, the German publication was not
supported by NIH. So there was an editorial that was published in the New York Times by
Rebecca Skloot, and in the process of generating that op ed, Rebecca reached out to her. And
I knew her from my days at Johns Hopkins at the Genetics and Public Policy Center because
she was a stringer for the Washington Post, and she wrote a very flattering article about
the Genetics and Public Policy Center soon after we launched, and we had remained in
contact ever since. So she talked to Francis Collins and myself, and ended up including
a quote from Francis in her editorial, and during our conversations, we asked if she
would connect us with the family. And she said she would think about that and talk to
the family about it. And that was very important for what's the rest of this story.
So in thinking about how to address the problem of what to do with the sequence that had been
taken down, and what to do with the sequence that was pending at Nature, we gave a lot
of serious consideration to how to make sure that we generated a solution that was the
right size for the problem; so not to create a solution that was ginormous and sort of
super-sized, but not also to create a solution that was too modest for the importance of
the situation. So in generating the solution to this problem, there were a lot of people
who played really, really important roles, notably Eric, Mark Guyer, Brad, Laura, and
Larry Thompson from the Genome Institute, as well as a slew of people from NCBI who
were instrumental in working with us, and folks in the Office of the Director. And this
was also a topic of conversation among the NIH leadership on a number of occasions with
the Institute directors from across the NIH.
So we had an opportunity, with the help from folks at Johns Hopkins, to meet with the family
over a series of months, and that was a fascinating experience. This is Francis taking a selfie
-- I'd never heard of a selfie; that's how under a rock I live -- on the day that we
announced our agreement with the Lacks family at Johns Hopkins, and standing directly next
to Francis is Jeri Lacks, her brother David Lacks, and their mother, standing there together.
There were many other members of the Lacks family who were present when we announced
our agreement.
So, on -- I can't remember the date, and I don't have my glasses, so I can't say it.
So we managed to reach an agreement, which I will talk to you a little bit about, and
also talk to you about how I think that this agreement is something that is going to be
evolving, and your input and thoughts would be really welcome. We did manage to reach
an agreement, and Jay Shendure's paper was published with the second full human genome
sequence, a commentary by Francis and I, and, at the same time, the German sequence was
reposted, but this time in dbGaP, so both Shendure sequence and the German sequence
were made available at the time of this publication.
So over the course of our time with the Lacks family -- and let me just say a couple of
words about the Lacks family. So the Lacks family is multi-generational, and it was multi-generations
that were participating in these discussions. They attended these meetings with me, and
Francis, and a couple of folks from Hopkins over a period of months. Where we began with
trying to just understand what the circumstance was, and then, over time, working towards
what would be the options for how we move forward, and then what were the respective
pros and cons, good, bad, and ugly, of each of those options. There were anywhere between
nine and 12 family members at any given meeting, and during the intervening times between our
meetings, they had discussions with their broader family, and at the end of the day,
they had a consensus position, which I think is a remarkable thing. I can't reach a consensus
agreement with my nuclear family about where to go to dinner.
[laughter]
So they really, you know, they are a remarkable, remarkable family.
So, elements of the agreement. So we opted to put the two whole assembled genomes into
controlled access in dbGaP, and require that researchers apply for access in order to get
to that. And the terms for access that a researcher must agree to in order to get access is that
they will use the sequence for biomedical research only; that they won't attempt to
contact the family; that they disclose whether they have plans for intellectual property,
or to develop a commercial product or service; and that they include a commitment to include
an acknowledgement in publications and presentations. And, in fact, I should note that Jay Shendure's
paper includes such an acknowledgement, and it's sort of the model of the first application
of that -- of that policy. So the policy also requires that future whole-genome data be
deposited into dbGaP, and we already have another submission that is in process, so
that would be the third HeLa sequence that will be in dbGaP.
In order -- so the way that dbGaP works for GWAS data, and this was a real learning experience
for me, and hat tip to Laura Rodriguez for walking me very slowly through this because
it was new; dbGaP sort of emerged after I left NIH the last time. So, ordinarily, there's
a Data Access Committee that looks over requests for access to data sets and determines whether
or not the researcher's proposal meets those criteria that were laid out in the original
consent. In this case, there is no consent. So what we are relying on are these conditions
that were set forth by the family, and it's important that this is a very unique circumstance,
and a point that we've tried to make over and over again about how this is not a precedent
for anything. This is an agreement that we've reached with the family to address a particular,
unique circumstance in science and ethics.
So our working group is going to operate much like a data access committee, but current
NIH data access committees are made up of NIH employees. It became apparent to us that
it would be advantageous to include members from the family in the review process, and
so that meant it couldn't be a DAC in the old-fashioned ways, and there are legal issues
in mixing feds and non-feds, so we ended up creating a working group of the Advisory Committee
to the Director, which is the highest advisory group to Francis, and we have had advisory
groups on a slew of important issues over the years. We currently have a working group
to the NIH director working on developing the scientific plan for the BRAIN initiative.
We have now the HeLa Data Access Working Group, and they will review each of these requests
as they come in.
The requests are submitted through a dbGaP study page; so there is a parent page about
HeLa, and then there are two, soon to be three, sub-pages. And on this page are special instructions
for researchers that really lay out the requirements that we want them to address in their data
access requests, and then also information about the data access working group, and also
the mechanism of how to submit another HeLa genome, if you have one.
So the HeLa Data Access Working Group was put together on the day that we announced
all these things that we announced. It is chaired by Renee Jenkins, who is an adolescent
medicine doc at Howard University. Also included are folks who you certainly know: Russ Altman;
Ruth Faden from Johns Hopkins, who was involved in discussions with the family, and so she
has a pre-existing relationship with the family that I think will be really helpful; David
Lacks, the grandson who you saw in the picture with Francis; Veronica Spencer, who was a
great-granddaughter from another son of Henrietta's; and Clyde Yancy, who is a member of our advisory
council. I will just skip that, we got lots of press.
So where are we now? We have, since August 19th, received -- actually, that says four.
We now have, over the weekend, a new one, we have five requests for access to HeLa data.
So working group is meeting for its inaugural meeting on September 12th, this week. They
will be reviewing those five data access requests, and we are optimistic that they will be operating
by consensus so that they can, as a group, send forward consensus recommendations to
provide -- to recommend to the Advisory Committee to the Director that access be granted or
not, or they can also request that there be more information solicited from the investigator.
There are a couple -- so one thing has been really important, particularly to Francis,
but I think it's been important to all of us, that this controlled access work effectively
and efficiently. So we want to be able to not have this stand in the way of research
moving forward. And, of course, you know, as researchers, would not like to have anything
slow us down by more than about three nanoseconds, so we are trying to have this process move
as quickly as possible. It is a new process, so this first round through, you know, we
were sort of getting our sea legs underneath us, but we -- if all works according to plan,
when we move these data access requests forward later this week, and on to the advisory committee,
which meets on September 16th, they will take action on them, and we will have finished
the entire review process in under a month. Hopefully, we'll be able to even shorten that
over time.
So one of the things that I think would be interesting to get your input on over time,
or any thoughts that you have, is what kind of data, HeLa data, needs to go into dbGaP?
We were, of course, responding to these assembled -- two assembled genomes that we knew about,
and now more, and so when we were thinking about what data goes in, we basically took
everything that was associated with the whole assembled genomes from both of the groups,
okay? So everything that they had, we slurped it into dbGaP. We were very candid with the
family all along, and we learned lots of interesting things about how much HeLa sequence actually
exists out there, and public databases today, and when the first sequences were around,
and it's just a massive amount of data, and so we were just very clear with the family
that it would be impractical, and, frankly, impossible, to take all that data that was
already out there and put it into controlled access, because it has already been downloaded,
and published, and recycled so many times that we couldn't really do it.
So at this moment in time, the data that's in dbGaP for HeLa is the whole assembled genomes
and sort of related sequence files. The question moving forward is, do we expand the policy
to ask that researchers generating any HeLa sequence date also submit it to dbGaP? And
that's an issue that Francis has asked the working group to take up. I think they probably
won't take it up robustly at this first meeting because they've got to sort of work through
these initial applications for access. But I'd be interested in thoughts that any of
you have either now, or send me an email, or give me a call. It's going to be an issue
that we're going to have to struggle with and get some resolution for the research community
in the near term.
So I think that's all I wanted to say. Yes, it is all I wanted to say. So I'd be happy
to answer questions, or respond to comments, or whatever.
Eric Green: Okay. Thank you, Kathy. I'm sure there will
be discussions. So, council members or others. Amy, we'll start with you.
Female Speaker: Thanks, Kathy. That was very helpful. So in
coming up with -- obviously, this was a unique case, and there's with a lot of unique sort
of circumstances surrounding the case, but in coming up with this policy solution for
this case, did you guys have broader discussions about policy around the rights of relatives,
of individuals who were generating sequence data on, and either prior to their death,
after they died, and how we're going to handle that, and how we're going to create policy
that is more scalable than this solution. Or do you see it as just unique?
Kathy Hudson: I really do see it as just unique. So we had
the conversations probably 15 years ago about consent from family members, and what role
do family members play, and I think that -- my own position is that if an individual opts
to participate in genetics research or to learn about their genome outside of a research
setting, that that decision should not be overridable by family members. There certainly
are people who have taken the approach that if you are going to be in this genetic study,
or if you're going to get this genetic information as a part of your clinical care, that you
should seriously think about how you talk to your family members about that. But I don't
think that this circumstance -- you know, there were some erroneous representations
of what we were doing here is suggesting that family members can sort of dictate what happens
to sort of proband genetic information, and that really is not the case. We have -- this
situation has certainly fed into the department's consideration about its revisions to the common
rule more broadly, but the issue of what are the regulatory and legal requirements for
family members is really not something that we're taking up as a policy initiative at
the present time.
Eric Green: Carlos.
Carlos Bustamante: So, I want to thank you also for the presentation.
I think it's, you know, fascinating, and it's great to see the right thing get done. Sort
of following up on Amy's question, not so much focused on family members but focused
on cell lines. So, you know, there are a large number of cell lines out there that are sort
of in this nether region where they were produced well before, say, 1,000 Genome consents and
other consents that explicitly say, look, you know, these are going to be broadly disseminated
and dot dot dot, so I'm thinking, if things are in Coriell, or other cell lines that are
out there, some of which we ourselves have sequenced, what are the thoughts there in
terms of policy? Is it a sort of case by case, or is there a sort of -- thinking of grandfathering
some of these in? Have you had those discussions, and if not, is there a plan to have that?
Kathy Hudson: So that's a great question. So one of the
unique features of HeLa is how widely known who she is and who her family is, and so we
have tried to look into whether or not there are other similar situations, other similar
cell lines. And from our review, there is probably one that is not on the same scale,
but where the donor's identity is known, where the cells are widely used, and where the donor
has known or knowable progeny. So we -- that's sort of a special case. And then there's all
the cells and specimens that are out there that have been procured for research, either
with consent being waived or used in a de-identified way. And I think that the department is seriously
thinking about how do we handle those that we already have versus how do we handle ones
that we will acquire in the future, given that DNA analysis now makes samples so readily
identifiable. So it's something that we're thinking about.
Male Speaker: Kathy, can we back up a little bit and talk
about the data that exists for the HeLa cells, in, I think, it was in about 160 gigabases.
And then thinking forward, there's a number of large projects that are ongoing today that
are using HeLa cells, and what the criteria might be for deciding what would go into dbGaP,
or what's the working group thinking. I know you're not, you know, a mind reader, but there
are a lot of considerations about ongoing projects.
Kathy Hudson: Yeah.
Male Speaker: And how would they be distinguished from,
for example, all the kinds of data that are already in NCBI.
Kathy Hudson: That's a great question, and it's one that
we really are just starting to ruminate about, and, you know, you guys -- this council is
in a very interesting position to be able to even just raise what are the considerations
here that we -- that the working group should know about. You know, we did look at what
data is out there already, but we haven't done a systematic look at what are the current
funded or ongoing research projects where HeLa data is sort of embedded in those initiatives
in a thorough way. So this is really something where we're just starting to -- starting to
think through the ramifications of all of this.
Male Speaker: Maybe I missed a bit, but what is being done
to help the Lacks family interpret the available genome in terms of health or medical relevance?
Kathy Hudson: So, a couple of things. One is that in our
early discussions, and Jeri Lacks says that she felt like she was in Genetics 101, we
were in a conference room at Johns Hopkins, and there was a white board, and low and behold,
Francis was up drawing pictures. So we -- I think a lot of our time with them was providing
some of the basics about, well, what is a genome anyway, and what can it tell you about
you, and what does it mean if it's not your genome but your parents' genome or your grandparents'
or your great grandparents' genome. And then, as a part of that conversation, we made -- we
made the family aware of ongoing research studies in which they could obtain their own
genomic information rather than trying to divine probabilities from their great-grandmother
or grandmother.
So we shared with them that could participate in some of these research studies where they
would affirmatively consent and learn this information, potentially, about themselves.
We also made available to them a genetic counselor and a medical geneticist who were provided
with data and a 60-page printout from somebody -- and I actually don't know who it was -- who
pushed the sequence, when it was up on the EBI site, pushed that sequence through SNPedia,
and had a variant readout, and so our medical geneticist and genetic counselor walked through
that data with the family, or some members of the family who were interested.
So that's sort of what we have provided. We have offered that they can meet with those
folks once again. We've offered that they can participate in protocols like ClinSeq.
And then I think that, in an ongoing way, especially the members of the working group,
the family members on the working group, are gonna continue to be in a-- well, let me back
up. Everybody on the working group is going to be in a learning mode here because this
is sort of uncharted territory. David Lacks sent me an email after I sent him some materials
about the working group and about what the first meeting was going to be, and he is actively
engaged in understanding the nuances and sort of exploring this. So I think -- I think we're
enjoying that exploration process, but we are trying to provide what we can. And it's,
you know, it's -- they got dumped into unfamiliar territory here. So...
Eric Green: [inaudible]
Female Speaker: Thanks, again, Kathy. I would just ask -- wanted
to ask you a question about, in the list of the considerations when they're reviewing
the applications, was plans for commercial -- disclosure of commercial plans -- could
you tell us a little more about that? I think that's really interesting, and where that's
coming from.
Kathy Hudson: Yeah, so I think the family, historically,
has had the issue of, "Is somebody getting rich and we're not," has been a theme for
some members of the family forever. And it certainly came up in the context of our discussions.
We, interestingly, between the second meeting we had with the family and the third meeting
we had with the family, we got the Supreme Court decision about the patentability of
non-manipulated genomic sequences. And that actually helped us a lot, right? So in trying
to think through -- so the family asked us questions like, "Can you imagine what would
be immediately sort of a first order commercializable thing from the HeLa sequence?" And, you know,
we thought long and hard about what that would be, and we were -- we came up with a few ideas,
and then we disproved our own idea. So we didn't come up anything that was sort of obvious,
but we also aren't all-knowing, so we didn't want to say, "Absolutely nothing will come
out of this that will be commercializable," and you'll read about it in the Wall Street
Journal.
And one of the things that we have been extremely sensitive to is this family keeps on getting
surprised. Right? Whoops, another surprise. So we cannot legally tell somebody who is
trying to access sequence that they have to vary their intellectual property, or give
up their intellectual property, or whatever. But they can -- we can ask them to disclose
it. And so if they disclose it, and it's known, then if the family seeks to reach out to them
and have a conversation, that's outside of our sphere. And just knowing about it was
really important to them, so we also have a requirement that if, when you submit your
application or data access request, and you say, "No, I don't have any immediate plans,"
if those plans change, they're required to update it.
Female Speaker: Okay, but the implications of this -- so that
this might be grounds for no access.
Kathy Hudson: No.
Female Speaker: No? No, okay. Because it is interesting in
the common rule -- I mean, in the informed consent documents right now, it's often disclosing
you have no commercial interest, this could be commercially developed, so it sort of set
that as the standard, contextually anyway.
Kathy Hudson: That's right.
Female Speaker: Okay.
Kathy Hudson: Yeah.
Female Speaker: Is the demarcation for the biomedical research
only that that means not ancestry research, or is there something else, just that?
Kathy Hudson: Could it be something else? I haven't really
thought about it. But yeah, so there have been categories that have been used in dbGaP
in the past, and we sort of presented those to the family. And ancestry was out, but there
are other, based on informed consents, there are lots of data sets in dbGaP that have much
narrower data access criteria, so only breast cancer, only this or that. So this is actually
incredibly broad. And the working group, of course, can modify -- make recommendations
for modifications to this policy over time if it turns out that it's needed, but...
Male Speaker: Kathy, I know you don't want to try and set
precedent with this, but I'm just wondering, looking at those criteria, as we've been talking
to human genetics researchers a little bit about using dbGaP, I can -- thinking about
some of those conversations, I can hear them saying, "I would like to be able to exercise
that provision on my dbGaP data. I'd like to be able to tell my study population that
any commercial plans would be disclosed, to me at least." Is there any possibility or
thought about -- I mean, obviously, dbGaP has its own rules about use, but you could
almost imagine a menu, a checklist, of a couple of things like this maybe investigators could
sort of put on there, their own dbGaP databases. Is that something that's been talked about
at all?
Kathy Hudson: Not directly, but there are, you know, there
are cohorts out there that have restrictions on who can access data, so I'm looking at
Teri. Isn't it true that Framingham now has some ability of cohort participants to say
that the data can't be accessed by private sector?
Teri Manolio: There are -- actually, there are a couple
cohorts that have [inaudible].
Kathy Hudson: Yeah, yeah. So there are things -- it's not
so much that you can't commercialize it, but if you are a commercializer, you can't get
it. So...
Eric Green: Any other questions, comments? So, as Kathy
offered, I'm sure they're interested to hear any other thoughts you have. Send her an email,
or I'm sure she'd get on the phone and talk to you. This is still a work in progress,
but -- okay, thank you, Kathy, for visiting with us.
Kathy Hudson: Yep.
Eric Green: And we're staying right on time, right?
Rudy Pozzatti: Okay, this is good, we're doing well. So next
up is Teri Manolio, who's going to give a report from the Genomic Medicine Working Group.