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  • Today we turn to Kant’s reply to Aristotle.

  • Kant thinks that Aristotle just made a mistake.

  • It’s one thing, Kant says,

  • to support a fair framework of rights

  • within which people can pursue their own

  • conceptions of the good life.

  • It’s something else and something that runs the risk of coercion

  • to base law or principles of justice

  • on any particular conception of the good life.

  • You remember Aristotle says in order to investigate the ideal constitution

  • we have first to figure out the best way to live.

  • Kant would reject that idea.

  • He says that constitutions and laws and rights

  • rights should not embody or affirm or promote

  • any particular way of life.

  • That’s at odds with freedom.

  • For Aristotle the whole point of law,

  • the purpose of polis

  • is to shape character,

  • to cultivate the virtue of citizens,

  • to inculcate civic excellence, to make possible a good way of life.

  • That’s what he tells us in the politics.

  • For Kant, on the other hand,

  • the purpose of law, the point of a constitutiion

  • is not to inculcate or to promote virtue.

  • It’s to set up a fair framework of rights within which

  • citizens may be free to pursue their own conceptions of the good for themselves.

  • So we see the difference in their theories of justice.

  • We see the difference in their account of

  • law or the role of a constitution, the point of politics,

  • and underlying these differences are

  • two different accounts of what it means to be a free person.

  • For Aristotle we are free insofar as we have

  • the capacity to realize our potential.

  • And that leads us to the question of fit.

  • Fit between persons and the roles that are appropriate to them.

  • Figuring out what I’m cut out for.

  • That’s what it means to lead a free life, to live up to my potential.

  • Kant rejects that idea and instead

  • substitutes his famously demanding notion of

  • freedom as the capacity to act autonomously.

  • Freedom means acting according to a law I give myself.

  • Freedom is autonomy.

  • Part of the appeal, part of the moral force

  • of the view of Kant and of Rawls consists in

  • the conception of the person as a free and independent self

  • capable of choosing his or her own ends.

  • The image of the self is free and independent

  • offers a, if you think about it, a powerful liberating vision

  • because what it says is that as free moral persons

  • we are not bound by any ties of history

  • or of tradition or of inherited status

  • that we haven’t chosen for ourselves,

  • and so were unbound by any moral ties prior to our choosing them.

  • And that means that we are

  • free and independent sovereign selves.

  • Were the authors of the only obligations that constrain us.

  • The communitarian critics of Kantian and Rawlsian liberalism

  • acknowledge that there is something powerful

  • and inspiring in that account of freedom,

  • the free independent choosing self,

  • but they argue it misses something.

  • It misses a whole dimension of moral life and even political life.

  • It can’t make sense of our moral experience because it can’t account

  • for certain moral and political obligations

  • that we commonly recognize and even prize.

  • And these include obligations of membership, loyalty,

  • solidarity, and other moral ties that may claim us for reasons

  • that we can’t trace to an act of consent.

  • Alistair McIntyre

  • gives an account what he calls a narrative conception of the self.

  • It’s a different account of the self.

  • Human beings are essentially storytelling creatures, McIntyre argues.

  • That means I can only answer the question

  • 'what am I to do?' if I can answer the prior question

  • of what story or stories do I find myself a part?

  • That’s what he means by the narrative conception of the self.

  • What does this have to do with the idea of community and belonging?

  • McIntyre says this,

  • Once you accept this narrative aspect of moral reflection

  • you will notice that we can never seek for the good

  • or exercise of the virtues only as individuals.

  • We all approach our circumstance as bearers of particular social identities.

  • I am someone’s son or daughter,

  • a citizen of this or that city,

  • I belonged to this plan, that tribe, this nation.

  • Hence, McIntyre argues, what is good for me

  • has to be the good for someone who inhabits these roles.

  • I inherit from the past of my family, my city, my tribe, my nation

  • a variety of debts, inheritances, expectations, and obligations.

  • These constitute the given of my life, my moral starting point.

  • This is in part what gives my life its moral particularity.

  • That’s the narrative conception of the self.

  • And it’s a conception that sees the self as

  • claimed or encumbered, at least to some extent,

  • by the history, the tradition,

  • the communities, of which it’s a part.

  • We can’t make sense of our lives,

  • not only as a psychological matter, but also as a moral matter

  • in thinking what we are to do

  • without attending to these features about us.

  • Now, McIntyre recognizes that this narrative account,

  • this picture of the encumbered self,

  • puts his account at odds with contemporary liberalism and individualism.

  • From the standpoint of individualism

  • I am what I myself choose to be.

  • I may biologically be my father’s son

  • but I can’t be held responsible for what he did

  • unless I choose to assume such responsibility.

  • I can’t be held responsible for what my country does, or has done,

  • unless I choose to assume such responsibility.

  • But McIntyre says this reflects a certain kind of moral shallowness

  • even blindness.

  • It’s a blindness at odds with the full measure of responsibility which sometimes,

  • he says, involves collective responsibility or responsibilities that may flow

  • from historic memories.

  • And he gives some examples.

  • Such individualism is expressed by those contemporary Americans

  • who deny any responsibility for the effects of slavery upon black Americans saying

  • "I never owned any slaves."

  • Or the young German who believes

  • that having been born after 1945 means

  • that what Nazis did to Jews has no moral relevance

  • to his relationship to his Jewish contemporaries.

  • McIntyre says all of these attitudes of historical amnesia

  • amount to a kind of moral abdication.

  • Once you see that who we are

  • and what it means to sort out our obligations

  • can’t be separated, shouldn’t be separated

  • from the life histories that define us.

  • The contrast, he says, with a narrative account, is clear,

  • For the story of my life is always embedded in the story

  • of those communities from which I derived my identity.

  • I am born with the past and to try to cut myself off from that past

  • is to deform my present relationships.

  • So there you have in McIntyre, a strong statement of the idea

  • that the self can’t be detached, shouldn’t be detached,

  • from its particular ties of membership history,

  • story narrative.

  • Now, I want to get your reactions

  • to the communitarian critique

  • of the individualist or the voluntarist,

  • the unencumbered self.

  • But let’s make it concrete so that you can react

  • to more than just the theory of it by looking at

  • the two different accounts of moral and political obligation that arise

  • depending on which of these conceptions of the person one accepts.

  • On the liberal conception,

  • moral and political obligations arise in one of two ways.

  • There are natural duties that we owe human beings as such.

  • duties of respect for persons qua persons.

  • These obligations are universal.

  • Then, as Rawls points out,

  • there are also voluntary obligations.

  • Obligations that we owe to particular others

  • insofar as we have agreed

  • whether through a promise or a deal or a contract.

  • Now, the issue between the liberal and communitarian accounts of the self,

  • is there another category of obligation or not?

  • The communitarian says there is.

  • There is a third category that might be called

  • obligations of solidarity or loyalty or membership.

  • The communitarian argues that construing all obligations

  • as either natural duties or voluntary obligations

  • fails to capture obligations of membership or solidarity.

  • Loyalties whose moral force consists partly in the fact

  • that living by them is inseparable from

  • understanding ourselves as the particular persons we are.

  • What would be some examples?

  • And then I want to see how you would react to them.

  • Examples of obligations of membership

  • that are particular but don’t necessarily flow from consent

  • but rather from membership narrative community, one situation.

  • The most common examples are ones to do with the family.

  • The relation between parents and children, for example.

  • Suppose there were two children drowning.

  • You could save only one of them.

  • One was your child, the other was a stranger’s child.

  • Would you have an obligation to flip a coin

  • or would there be something morally obtuse

  • if you didn’t rush to save your child?

  • Now, you may say, well, parents have agreed

  • to have their children.

  • So take the other case, the case of children’s

  • obligation for their parents.

  • Now, we don’t choose our parents.

  • We don’t even choose to have parents.

  • There is that asymmetry.

  • And yet consider two aging parents, one of them yours,

  • the other a stranger’s.

  • Doesn’t it make moral sense to think that you have a greater obligation

  • to look after your aged parent than to flip a coin or to help the stranger’s?

  • Now, is this traceable to consent? Not likely

  • Or take a couple of political examples.

  • During World War II, French resistance pilots

  • flew bombing raids over occupied France.

  • One day, one of the pilots received his target

  • and noticed that the village he was being asked to bomb

  • was his home village.

  • He refused, not disputing that it was as necessary as the target he bombed yesterday.

  • He refused on the ground that he couldn’t bring himself.

  • It would be a special moral crime for him to bomb his people

  • even in a cause that he supported, the cause of liberating France.

  • Now, do we admire that?

  • If we do, the communitarian argues,

  • it’s because we do recognize obligations of solidarity.

  • Take another example.

  • Some years ago there was a famine in Ethiopia.

  • Hundreds of thousands of people were starving.

  • The Israeli government organized an airlift to rescue Ethiopian Jews.

  • They didn’t have the capacity to rescue everyone in Ethiopia.

  • They rescued several hundred Ethiopian Jews.

  • Now, what’s your moral assessment?

  • Is that a kind of morally troubling partiality, a kind of prejudice?

  • Or as the Israeli government thought, is there a special obligation of solidarity

  • that this airlift properly responded to?

  • Well, that takes us to the broader question of patriotism.

  • What, morally speaking, is to be said for patriotism?

  • There are two towns named Franklin.

  • One is Franklin, Texas,

  • and the other is just across the Rio Grande River, Franklin, Mexico.

  • What is the moral significance of national boundaries?

  • Why is it, or is it the case

  • that we as Americans have a greater responsibility

  • for the health and the education and the welfare and public provision

  • for people who live in Franklin, Texas,

  • than equally needy people just across the river,

  • living in Franklin, Mexico?

  • According to the communitarian account, membership does matter.

  • And the reason patriotism is at least potentially a virtue

  • is that it is an expression of

  • the obligations of citizenship.

  • How many are sympathetic to the idea that there is this third category of obligation?

  • The obligations of solidarity or membership.

  • How many are sympathetic to that idea?

  • And how many are critical of that idea?

  • How many think all obligations can be accounted for

  • in the first two ways?

  • All right, let’s hear from the critics of the communitarian idea first.

  • Yes.

  • My biggest concern with the idea of having obligations

  • because youre a member of something or because of solidarity

  • is that it seems that if you accept those obligations as being

  • sort of morally binding, then there is a greater occurrence of overlapping obligations

  • a greater occurrence of good versus good.

  • And I don’t know if this sort of framework

  • allows us to choose between them.

  • Good, and what's your name? - Patrick.

  • So you worry that if we recognize obligations of membership or solidarity,

  • since we inhabit different communities, their claims might conflict,

  • and what would we do if we have competing obligations?

  • Yes.

  • Well, one solution is that we could view ourselves as

  • ultimately, members of the human community

  • and that then within that we have all these smaller spheres, of that,

  • you know, I am American or I am a student at Harvard.

  • and so the most important community to be obligated to

  • is the community of human beings.

  • And then from there you can sort of, evaluate,

  • which other ones are most important to you.

  • So the most, and what’s your name? - Nichola.

  • So, Nichola, you say the most universal community

  • we inhabit, the community of human kind,

  • always takes precedence? - Yes.

  • Patrick, are you satisfied?

  • No. - Why not?

  • It seems rather arbitrary that we should choose the

  • universal obligation over the more specific obligation.

  • I might also say that I should be obligated first to the most specific of my obligations.

  • For instance, take my family as a small unit of solidarity.

  • Perhaps I should be first obligated to that unit

  • and then perhaps to the unit of my town,

  • and then my country, and then the human race.

  • Good, thank you.

  • I want to hear from another critic of the communitarian view.

  • We have the objection, well, what if goods collide?

  • Who objects to the whole idea of it?

  • Who sees patriotism as just the kind of prejudice

  • that ideally we should overcome?

  • Yes.

  • Patriotism reflects a community membership.

  • That’s a, like, a given.

  • I think the problem is that where some memberships are natural narratives,

  • the narrative of citizenship is a constructed one.

  • And I think a false one because, as the river is just a historical accident,

  • it makes no sense that because the lottery of birth threw me into

  • the United States as opposed to Mexico that

  • that’s the membership that I should be a part of.

  • Good. And what’s your name? - Elizabeth.

  • Elizabeth. Who has a reply?

  • Yes.

  • I think in general, we have to ask where do our moral obligations arise from anyway.

  • And I think, basically, there’d be two places from which they could arise.

  • One would be kin and the other one would be reciprocity.

  • And isn’t the closer you are associated to other people,

  • there’s a natural reciprocity there in terms of

  • having interactions with those people.

  • You interact with the neighbors on your street,

  • with the other people in your country through economic arrangements-

  • But I don’t know and you don’t know those people in Franklin, Texas,

  • any more than you know the people in Franklin, Mexico, do you?

  • Presumably youre naturally more connected with the people

  • in your own country in terms of interaction and trade

  • than you are with people in other countries.

  • Good. Who else? Go ahead.

  • Yeah, I think that a lot of the basis for patriotism

  • can be compared to like school spirit or even house spirit that we see here

  • where freshmen are sorted into houses and then within a day they have developed

  • some sort of attachment or a pride associated with that house.

  • And so I think that we can probably draw a distinction between

  • a moral obligation for communitarian beliefs

  • and sort of just a sentimental, emotional attachment.

  • Good. Wait, stay there. What’s your name?

  • Rina.

  • What about... Go back to my example about the obligation

  • of the child to the parent.

  • Would you say the same thing there?

  • It just may or may not be a sentimental type and it has no moral weight?

  • Well, I mean, I’m not entirely certain that accident, in the initial stages,

  • something that will preclude moral obligations later.

  • Just because we are randomly sorted into a house or just because

  • we don’t choose who our parents are or what country we're born into

  • doesn’t necessarily mean that we won’t develop an obligation based on

  • some type of benefit, I guess, to sort of...

  • So your obligation to your aged parent

  • that’s greater than to aged parents around the world,

  • is only because and insofar as youre repaying a benefit

  • that your parent gave you when you were growing up?

  • Yeah, I mean, I would say that if you look at cases of adoption where,

  • you have a biological parent somewhere else that you don’t interact with,

  • and then you have a parent who adopted you,

  • most people would say that if you had to pick between them

  • in the case of aging parents, that your obligation would lie

  • more with the person who raised you and who had exchanges with you meaningfully.

  • May I ask you one more question about the parent?

  • Sure.

  • Do you think that a person with a bad parent owes them less?

  • I don’t know because I’ve never had a bad parent.

  • I think that’s a good place to end. - Thank you.

  • Well continue with this next time. Thank you.

  • If I were working on an [economics] problem set, for exmaple,

  • and I saw that my roommate was cheating,

  • that might be a bad thing for him to do but I wouldn’t turn him in.

  • You would not turn him in.

  • I wouldn’t turn him in and I think that I would argue that’s the right thing to do

  • because of my obligation to him.

  • You don’t have a duty to tell the truth,

  • to report someone who cheated?

  • Today I’d like to take, I’d like to consider

  • the strongest objections to the idea that there are

  • obligations of solidarity or membership.

  • Then I want to see if those objections can be met successfully.

  • One objection emerged in the discussion last time.

  • Patrick said,

  • if obligations flow from community membership and identity,

  • we inhabit multiple communities,

  • doesn’t that mean that our obligations will sometimes conflict?

  • So that’s one possible objection.

  • And then Rina said these examples meant to bring out the moral force

  • of solidarity and membership,

  • examples about parents and children, about the French resistant fighter

  • asked to bomb his own village and withdrawing back.

  • About the airlift by Israel of the Ethiopian Jews.

  • These examples, they maybe intuitively evocative, Rina said.

  • But really theyre pointing to matters of emotion, matters of sentiment.

  • Not true moral obligations.

  • And then there were a number of objections,

  • not necessarily to patriotism as such.

  • But to patriotism understood as an obligation of solidarity and membership

  • beyond consent.

  • This objection allowed that there can be obligations to the communities we inhabit

  • including obligations to patriotism.

  • But this objection argued that all of the obligations of patriotism,

  • or of community or membership,

  • are actually based on liberal ideas and perfectly compatible with them.

  • Consent, either implicit or explicit or reciprocity.

  • Julia Ratthel for example on the web site

  • said that liberalism can endorse patriotism as a voluntary moral obligation.

  • Patriotism and familial love both fall into this category

  • because after all, Julia points out,

  • the Kantian framework allows people free reign to choose to express

  • virtues such as these if they want to.

  • So you don’t need the idea of a non-voluntary particular moral obligation

  • to capture the moral force of community values.

  • Where is Julia?

  • Okay, so did I summarize that fairly?

  • Julia actually is in line with what Rawls says about this very topic.

  • You weren't aware of that?

  • You came up it within your own. That's pretty good.

  • Rawls says, when he’s discussing political obligation,

  • he says it’s one thing if someone runs for office

  • or enlists in the military,

  • they are making a voluntary choice.

  • But Rawls says there is, I believe, no political obligations, strictly speaking,

  • for a citizens generally.

  • Because it’s not clear what is the requisite binding action

  • and who has performed it.

  • So Rawls acknowledges that for ordinary citizens

  • there is no political obligation except in so far as

  • some particular citizen willingly, through an act of consent,

  • undertakes or chooses such an obligation.

  • That’s in line with Julia’s point.

  • It’s related to another objection that people have raised which is

  • it’s perfectly possible to recognize particular obligations

  • to ones family or to ones country, provided

  • honoring those obligations doesn’t require you

  • to violate any of the natural duties or requirements

  • of the universal respect for persons-qua-persons.

  • So that’s consistent with the idea that we can choose if we want to,

  • to express our loyalty to our country or to our people or to our family

  • provided we don’t do any injustice

  • within the framework acknowledging the priority that is of the universal duties.

  • The one objection that I didn’t mention is

  • the view of those who say

  • that obligations of membership really are kind of collective selfishness,

  • why should we honor them?

  • Isn’t it just the kind of prejudice?

  • So what I’d like to do, perhaps of those of you

  • who have agreed, who wrote and who have agreed

  • to press these objections,

  • perhaps if you could gather down all together,

  • well form a team as we did once before.

  • And well see if you can respond to those who want to defend patriotism

  • conceived as a communal obligation.

  • Now there were a number of people

  • who argued in defense of patriotism

  • as the communitarian view conceives it.

  • So let me go down now and join the critics,

  • the critics of communitarianism.

  • If there’s a microphone that we could use somewhere.

  • Okay, thanks Kate.

  • Who as the critics of patriotism, communal patriotism

  • gather their forces here?

  • Patrick if you want to you can join as well or Rina.

  • Others who have spoken or addressed this question

  • are free to join in.

  • But I would like to hear now, from those you who

  • defend patriotism and defend it as

  • a moral obligation that can’t be translated back into

  • purely consent based terms.

  • Can’t be translated into the liberal terms.

  • Where is AJ Kumar?

  • AJ, everybody seems to know you.

  • All right, let’s hear from AJ.

  • You said, in the same way I feel I owe more to my family than to the general community,

  • I owe more to my country than to humanity in general.

  • Because my country holds a great stake in my identity.

  • It is not prejudice for me to love my country

  • unless it is prejudice for me to love my parents

  • more than somebody else’s.

  • So AJ what would you say to this group?

  • Stand up.

  • I think that there is some fundamental, a moral obligation

  • that comes from a communitarian responsibility

  • to people in groups that form their identity.

  • I mean even, like I’ll give the example that,

  • there are a lot of things about our government, right now,

  • that I’m not in favor of but part of my identity is

  • that America values a free society where we can

  • object to certain things and I think that’s an

  • expression of patriotism as well.

  • And, I go back to the parent example, even at Harvard,

  • I think, I owe more to my roommates because they make up my identity,

  • than I do it to the Harvard community as a whole.

  • And I think that applies to our country because there’s certain things

  • that growing up here, yes, we can’t choose it,

  • we can’t choose our parents, things like that.

  • But it makes up part of our identity.

  • Okay, who would like to take that on? Mike?

  • Yeah about the obligation to the others simply by virtue of being in their,

  • being influenced by them.

  • I’m a German citizen and if I’ve been born 80 years earlier

  • then I would have been a citizen of Nazi Germany.

  • And for some reason I just don’t think that I would have to feel obligated

  • towards Germany because I had benefited from actions of Nazis.

  • I mean I guess my response to that would be

  • you have hundreds of thousands of protesters in the United States right now

  • who hold up signs that say, "Peace is patriotic."

  • And I’m sure there are people in this room who don’t agree with that.

  • I personally do and I would say that

  • they are strongly objecting to basically everything the Bush administration is

  • doing right now but they still consider themselves

  • loving their country because theyre furthering the cause of

  • what they see is best for the country.

  • And I tend to agree with that as a patriotic movement.

  • Well but how’s that then, how do you still favor your country?

  • How’s that still patriotic?

  • I mean isn’t that more sentimental attachment?

  • Where is the obligation there?

  • Rina?

  • Yeah not to bring this back to John Locke, but

  • I would like to bring this back to John Locke.

  • So, I mean in his conception of, when people join society,

  • there’s still some outlet.

  • If youre not satisfied with your society,

  • you do have a means of exit even though

  • we had a lot of concerns about how youre born

  • and it’s not very feasible, he still provides that option.

  • If we want to say that your obligation to society is a moral one,

  • that means that prior to knowing exactly what that society is going to be like

  • or what your position is going to be in that society,

  • that means that you have a binding obligation to a complete unknown body

  • that could be, completely foreign to all of your personal beliefs

  • Or what you would hold to be correct.

  • Do you think that that kind of communal obligation or patriotism

  • means writing the community a blank moral check?

  • Basically, yeah.

  • I think it’s reasonable to say that as you grow and as you develop

  • within the community that you acquire some type of obligation based on reciprocity

  • but to say that you have a moral obligation I think requires a stronger justification.

  • Who else?

  • Anyone else who would like to address that?

  • I guess we could say you could argue that you are morally obliged to society

  • by the fact that there is that reciprocity.

  • I think it’s the idea that, you know, we participate in society, we pay our taxes,

  • we vote, this is why we could say that we owe something to society.

  • But beyond that I don’t think there’s anything inherent in the fact

  • that we are members of the society itself that we owe at anything.

  • I think it’s in so far as we, as the society give us something,

  • gives us protection, safety, security,

  • then we owe the society something but nothing beyond what we give the society.

  • Who want to take that on?

  • Raul?

  • I don’t think we give the community a blank moral check in that sense.

  • I think we only give it a blank moral check when we abdicate our sense of

  • civic responsibility and when we say that

  • the debate does matter because patriotism is a vice.

  • I think that patriotism is important because it gives us a sense of community,

  • a sense of common civic virtue that we can engage in the issues.

  • Even if you don’t agree with the way the government is acting,

  • you can still love your country and hate the way it’s acting.

  • And I think because out of that love of county,

  • you can debate with other people and have respect for their views

  • but still engage them in debate.

  • If you just say that, patriotism is a vice, you drop out of that debate

  • and you cede the ground to people who are more fundamentalist,

  • who have a stronger view and who may coerce the community.

  • Instead we should engage the other members of the community

  • on that same moral ground.

  • Now this, what we hear from AJ and Raul that’s very pluralistic argumentative

  • critically minded patriotism.

  • Whereas what we hear from, Ike and the critics of patriotism here

  • is the worry that to take patriotic obligation in a communal way, seriously,

  • involves the kind of loyalty that doesn’t let us just pick and choose among the beliefs

  • or actions or practices of our country.

  • what’s left of loyalty if were all talking about,

  • AJ and Raul,

  • if all were talking about is loyalty to principles of justice

  • that may happen to be embodied in our community

  • or not as the case may be.

  • And if not then we can reject its course.

  • I don’t know, I sort of given a reply.

  • I got carried away. I’m sorry. Who would like...?

  • Go ahead Julia.

  • Yeah I think that patriotism you need to define what that is.

  • It sounds like, you would normally think that we are given a more weak definition

  • here of patriotism amongst us but almost sounds like

  • your definition is merely to have some sort civic involvement in debating

  • within your society.

  • and I think that that kind of undermines maybe some of the moral worth of patriotism

  • as a virtue as well.

  • I think if you can consent to a stronger form of patriotism if you want

  • that’s a stronger, I guess, moral obligation than even what youre suggesting.

  • What we really need to sharpen the issue is an example from the defenders

  • of communitarianism of a case where loyalty can actually compete with

  • and possibly outway universal principles of justice.

  • That’s the test they really need to meet isn’t it?

  • All right. So that’s the test you need to meet.

  • Or, any among you who would like to defend obligations of membership or solidarity

  • independent of ones that happened to embody just principles.

  • Who has an example of a kind of loyalty

  • that can and should compete with

  • universal moral claim respect for persons?

  • Go ahead.

  • Yeah, if I were working on an [economics] problem set, for example

  • and I saw that my roommate was cheating, that might be a bad thing for him to do

  • I wouldn’t turn him in. - You would not turn him in?

  • I wouldn’t turn him in and I think that I would argue that’s the right thing to do

  • because of my obligation to him.

  • It may be wrong but that’s what I would do

  • and, I think that’s what most people would do as well.

  • All right, that’s... Now there’s a fair test.

  • He’s not slipping out by saying he’s invoking, in the name of community,

  • some universal principles of justice.

  • What's your name?

  • Stay there. What's your name?

  • It’s Dan.

  • Dan. So what do people think about Dan’s case?

  • That’s a harder case for the ethic of loyalty, isn't it?

  • But a truer test.

  • How many agree with Dan?

  • So loyalty... Dan loyalty has its part, if that's it.

  • How many disagree with Dan?

  • Peggy.

  • Oh well I agree with Dan but I agree that it’s a choice that we make

  • but it’s not necessarily right or wrong.

  • I’m agreeing that I’m going to make the wrong choice

  • because I’m going to choose my roommate.

  • But I also recognize that that choice isn’t morally right.

  • So youre still translating, even Dan’s loyalty,

  • youre saying well that’s a matter of choice,

  • but what’s the right thing to do?

  • Most people put up their hands saying

  • Dan would be right to stand by his roommate and not turn him in.

  • Yes, go ahead.

  • Also I think as a roommate you have insider information

  • and that might not be something you want to use.

  • That might be something unfair to hold against.

  • Youre spending that much time with the roommate,

  • obviously youre going to learn things about him

  • and I don’t think it’s fair to reveal that to a greater community.

  • But it’s loyalty, Vojtech.

  • You agree with Dan that loyalty is the ethic at stake here?

  • Absolutely.

  • You don’t have a duty to tell the truth, to report someone who cheated?

  • Not if youve been advantage into getting that kind of information.

  • Before our critics of patriotism leave,

  • I want to give you another version, a more public example of what,

  • I guess we should call it Dan’s dilemma.

  • Dan’s dilemma of loyalty and I want to get the reaction of people to this.

  • This came up a few years ago in Massachusetts.

  • Does anyone know who this man is?

  • Billy Bulger that’s right. Who is Billy Bulger?

  • He was president of the Massachusetts State Senate for many years.

  • One of the most powerful politicians in Massachusetts

  • and then he became president of the Univeristy of Massachusetts.

  • Now Billy Bulger, did you hear the story about him that bears on Dan’s dilemma?

  • Billy Bulger has a brother named Whitey Bulger

  • and this is Whitey Bulger.

  • His brother Whitey is on the FBI’s most wanted list

  • alleged to be a notorious gang leader in Boston,

  • responsible for many murders and now a fugitive from justice.

  • But when the US attorney... They called Billy Bulger,

  • then the president of the Univeristy of Massachusetts,

  • before the grand jury and wanted information

  • on the whereabouts of his brother, this fugitive,

  • and he refused to give it.

  • US attorney said, “Just to be clear Mr. Bulger,

  • you feel more loyalty to your brother than to the people

  • of the commonwealth of Massachusetts?”

  • And here’s what Billy Bulger said,

  • “I never thought of it that way

  • but I do have a loyalty to my brother, I care about him.

  • I hope that I'm never helpful to anyone against him.

  • I don’t have an obligation to help anyone catch my brother.”

  • Dan you would agree.

  • How many would agree with the position of Billy Bulger?

  • Let me give one other example and then well let the critics reply,

  • the critics of loyalty as well describe it.

  • Here’s an even more fateful example from a figure in American history,

  • Robert E. Lee.

  • Now Robert E. Lee on the eve of the civil war,

  • was an officer of the Union Army.

  • He opposed secession, in fact, regarded as treason.

  • When war loomed, Lincoln offered Lee

  • to be the commanding general of the Union Army,

  • and Lee refused.

  • And he described in a letter to his sons why he refused.

  • With all my devotion to the Union, he wrote,

  • I have not been able to make up my mind

  • to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home.

  • By which he meant Virginia.

  • If the union is dissolved I shall return to my native state

  • and share the miseries of my people.

  • Save in her defense, I will draw my sword no more.

  • Now here’s a real test, Dan,

  • for your principle of loyalty.

  • Because here is the cause of the war against,

  • not only to save the union but against slavery.

  • And Lee is going to fight for Virginia even though he doesn’t share

  • the desire of the southern states to secede.

  • Now the communitarian would say there is something admirable in that.

  • Whether or not the decision was ultimately right,

  • there’s something admirable.

  • And the communitarian would say we can’t even make sense, Rina,

  • we can’t make sense

  • of Lee's dilemma as a moral dilemma

  • unless we acknowledge that the claim of loyalty

  • arising from his sense of narrative of who he is

  • is a moral, not just sentimental, emotional tug.

  • All right, who would like to respond to Dan’s loyalty,

  • to Billy Bulger’s loyalty or to Robert E. Lee’s loyalty to Virginia?

  • What do you say Julia?

  • Okay, well I think that these are some classic examples

  • of multiple spheres of influence.

  • And that you have conflicting communities that your family and your country.

  • I think that’s one reason why the idea of choice in your obligation is so important

  • because how else can you resolve this?

  • If youre morally obligated and there’s no way out of this

  • need for loyalty to the both communities,

  • youre trapped, there’s nothing you can do.

  • You have to make a choice.

  • And I think that being able to choose based on other characteristics,

  • than merely the arbitrary fact that youre a member of this community is important,

  • otherwise it’s left to, I guess, randomness.

  • Well, Julia, the issue isn’t whether Dan makes a choice,

  • or Billy Bulger or Robert E. Lee, of course they make a choice.

  • The question is on what grounds, on what principle should they choose?

  • The communitarian doesn’t deny that there is choice to be made.

  • The question is which choice, on what grounds

  • and should loyalty, as such, weigh.

  • Andre now you want to, all right, go ahead. What do you say?

  • Well one of the things weve noticed in the three examples is that

  • the people of all chosen the most immediate community of which they're a part.

  • The more local one.

  • And I think there’s something to be said for that.

  • It’s not just random.

  • I mean, there doesn’t seem to be a conflict

  • because they know which one is more important.

  • And it’s their family over the Ec10 Class.

  • Their state over their country,

  • and their family over the Commonwealth on Massachusetts.

  • So I think that’s the answer to which is more important.

  • Do you think that the local, the more particular,

  • is always the weightier morally, Andre?

  • Well I mean there’s seems to be a trend in the three cases.

  • I would agree with that.

  • And I think most of us would agree that your family takes precedence over

  • the United States perhaps.

  • Which is why you go with Dan?

  • Loyalty to the roommate over Ec10 and the truth?

  • Yeah, exactly.

  • I would because it...

  • I mean truth telling, not the truth of Ec10.

  • Yes. - Alright, so we understand.

  • Yes.

  • But on the same example in terms of family,

  • you had cases in the civil war where brother was pitted against brother

  • on both sides of the war, where they chose country instead of family.

  • So I think the exact same, more shows, that different people

  • have different means of making these choices

  • and that there is no one set of values, or one set of morality

  • that communitarians can stick to.

  • And personally, I think that’s the biggest problem with communitarians,

  • that we don’t have one set of standard moral obligations.

  • And tell me your name. - Samantha.

  • So Samantha, you agree with Patrick.

  • Patrick’s point the other day

  • that there may be... If we allow obligations

  • to be defined by community, identification or membership,

  • they may conflict, they may overlap, they may compete.

  • And there is no clear principle.

  • Andre says here’s a clear principle, the most particular.

  • The other day, Nichola who was sitting over here, where's Nichola?

  • Said that most universal.

  • You're saying, Samantha,

  • the scale of the community as such can’t be the decisive moral factor.

  • So there has to be some other moral judgment.

  • All right, let’s first... Let's let our defe...

  • our critics of communal patriotism,

  • let’s express our appreciation and thank them

  • for their having stood up and responded to these arguments.

  • Let’s turn to the implications for justice

  • of the positions that weve heard discussed here.

  • One of the worries underlying these multiple objections

  • to the idea of loyalty or membership as having independent moral weight

  • is that it seems to argue that there is no way

  • of finding principles of justice that are detached from

  • conceptions of the good life

  • as they may be lived in any particular community.

  • Supposed the communitarian argument is right.

  • Suppose the priority of the right over the good can’t be sustained.

  • Suppose instead, that justice and rights unavoidably

  • are bound up with conceptions of the good.

  • Does that mean that justice is simply

  • a creature of convention,

  • of the values that happen to prevail in any given community at any given time?

  • One of the writings we have among the communitarian critics

  • is by Michael Walzer.

  • He draws the implications of justice this way.

  • Justice is relative to social meanings.

  • A given society is just if its substantive life is lived in a certain way,

  • in a way that is faithful to the shared understandings of the members.

  • So Walzer's account seems to bear out

  • the worry that if we can’t find independent principles of justice,

  • independent that is, from conceptions of the good that prevail in any given community,

  • that were simply left with justice being a matter of fidelity or faithfulness

  • to the shared understandings or values or conventions

  • that prevail in any given society at any given time.

  • But is that an adequate way of thinking about justice?

  • Well, let’s take a look at a short clip

  • from the documentary "Eyes on the Prize."

  • It goes back in the 1950s in the south.

  • Here are some situated American Southerners

  • who believed in the tradition and the shared understandings of segregation.

  • Listen to the arguments they make about loyalty and tradition

  • And see if they don’t make you uneasy

  • about tying arguments about justice to the shared understandings or traditions

  • that prevail in any given society at the moment. Let’s run the clip.

  • 'This land is composed of two different appearances.

  • A white culture and a colored culture.

  • And I've lived close to them all my life.

  • But I'm told now that we've mistreated them

  • and that we must change.

  • And these changes are coming faster than I expected.

  • And I'm required to make decisions

  • on the basis of a new way of thinking and it's difficult.

  • It's difficult for me, it's difficult for all southerners.'

  • Well there you have it, narrative selves, situated selves invoking tradition.

  • Doesn’t that show us that justice can’t be tied

  • to the shared understandings of goods that prevail in any given community

  • at any given time?

  • Or is there a way of rescuing that claim from this example?

  • Think about that question and well return to it next time.

Today we turn to Kant’s reply to Aristotle.

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邁克爾-桑德爾:正義是什麼正確的事第11集《社區的訴求》。 (Michael Sandel:Justice What's The Right Thing To Do Episode 11 THE CLAIMS OF COMMUNITY)

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    ethern 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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