第6集：一起勇敢（布蘭妮-布朗 (Ep 6: Brave Together (Brene Brown))

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- Welcome to The Next Question, I'm Jenny.
- I'm Austin.
- I'm Chi-Chi.
- So today ladies we have Brené Brown with us.
- Whoop, whoop!
- Yeah!
- She is a New York Times bestselling author
of books like "Daring Greatly",
"Rising Strong", "Dare to Lead".
She is also a sociology researcher focused on shame,
vulnerability and courage.
She also has a TED Talk that I think
has like 48 million views or something.
So no pressure.
- Also "The Gifts of Imperfection".
- Yes, which is our collective favorite.
So ladies, what did we love about this conversation?
- We've been listening to Brené talk for
a long time about shame and vulnerability.
But it doesn't often penetrate specifically
into the lives of women of color,
and how being vulnerable and being courageous
and being brave can have extra costs associated to it.
So it's so good to sit down with her and say Brené,
but what about marginalized people?
What does all of this research have to say for us
who are dealing with so many systemic issues.
- And I really loved how we got to
some of the tough questions,
when you start talking about human connection.
What's at the core of all of this division.
Because so many times they can become an issue,
but we forget what it was supposed to be the fact
that we're supposed to be connected to each other,
and the fact that we're not
is what really causes all of these problems.
And I really appreciated her willingness to go there.
- Yes. - Totally.
- To have some really tough dialogue.
But also in the same way to imagine what
a better world can look like.
Especially between white women
and black women and women of color.
That was a part where we don't often get to do that,
name the thing,
name ways that white women have hurt women of color.
But also imagine it a different way.
And that was a really special conversation.
- Totally.
I think one of my favorite parts
of just doing the series in general
is when our guest will say,
I don't usually talk about this,
or I've never been asked this question,
and she said that a couple of times.
And that felt really just special
that we were tapping into a side of her
that is very much there,
like to hear about her being
in grad school reading bell hooks,
and just that she has been,
she's been in this work for a long time,
eyes wide open.
And for her to have an outlet to really dive in,
it felt kind of like an honor
to create that kind of space together with her.
- Shall we get to it?
- Yeah, it's time for The Next Question.
Brené, it seems that you have become more
and more vocal about racial justice issues.
Is there a recent moment that has sparked this,
or some sort of personal change
that has made you much more vocal about equity?
- I love all the warmup questions, I really--
I was like, hell, we're here.
So let me tell you the weird story.
I am a social worker,
I have a bachelors, Masters and PhD in social work.
The first class I ever took was like
structural oppression and genocide.
Like this is just how we're trained.
And so I didn't even,
and I was raised on a very healthy dose of bell hooks.
- Hey.
- That's what I'm talking about.
- Yeah huge,
when I first started teaching
I started teaching my first year in the doctoral program
I would sleep with "Teaching to Transgress".
- Listen.
- Next to my bed with her picture up,
so when I saw it in the morning,
I was like because I wanted to control the classroom
and everything that she said was like,
education is liberation, let it go, let it go.
And I was like, be aware of your whiteness.
So I think I've always been,
even if you go back to,
I Thought It Was Just Me.
Which was like, before The Gifts of Imperfection.
I write about race, privilege.
It's like I didn't,
it was weird to me that we use the term white supremacy,
when I was in graduate school like I was like,
that just seems like
a technically accurate term for what's happening.
And then I think there was a lulling into complacency.
And kind of always aware of it.
So I think I've always written about it and talked about it,
I just think it was always to the converted.
And so I think, do you know what I mean?
So now I think--
- Your audience has expanded
so much since then.
- And it's so interesting,
because I'll put something out there,
and they're like, oh my God you've become so radical.
And I'm like you know page 155,
20 years ago, every paper I've ever written.
Like no, you become so complacent like.
And so I think I have a bigger audience now.
But I don't think it's,
I don't think I've changed that much, does that make sense?
- Absolutely.
- Who introduced bell hooks to you?
Like where did that come from?
- Who introduced bell hooks to me?
Probably either Jean Contabu Lating,
one of my mentors in graduate school.
Karen Stout, another mentor of Barbara Novak,
all mentors for me in graduate school.
We read you know like,
and I'm rereading her right now, rereading the trilogy.
The Love.
I am really working on a new strategy this month.
- What do you mean?
You're like, how your?
- It's like they got my hate.
I swore they wouldn't take my hate.
But they got my hate.
And then after that El Paso and Ohio shootings
I haven't been online in over a month.
- Wow.
- Like not Instagram, nothing.
Like I'm just something, I have to shift something.
So I'm trying to think maybe I've abandoned love too much,
so I'm rereading bell hooks right now.
And I think I have to start fighting.
I have this theory that if you're motivated by hate,
it's just not sustainable.
And I'll tell you this,
I've never talked about this publicly,
so these ideas are percolating,
like be gentle with me on social media as you watch this.
I think,
let me think about this for a minute,
I'm not filtering
I'm just really thinking about my thoughts,
I'm a pauser.
I don't think like hate
and shame-fueled activism is sustainable.
- I think there are a lot
of movement builders who would say the same thing,
and I think they would add anger actually to that list.
- I would add it too.
- Right, but it can maybe be
a catalyst. - A catalyst, yeah.
- But for sustainability.
- What doesn't work for me
and I find myself in these arguments like you know,
you're in your whiteness when you argue for privilege,
I mean for civility,
you're in your whiteness when you're saying no hate.
But I just wonder, I look at the health outcomes
for disenfranchised marginalized populations.
I look at blood pressure,
I look at like, even at the rage,
like what a price to pay.
When you're paying with your life.
And then it was really hard
and I'll be curious to see what you all think about this,
this is the part I haven't talked about.
I thought for like the last year
that it was maybe a return to my faith
where I would find a sustained fighting energy.
- Right.
- I'm not with the program --
I'm having a hard time,
I'm having a hard time.
I'm having a hard time.
- I found myself redefining what it means.
- Really?
Because I grew up Christian, evangelical.
And for the last three years I've had
just a complete.
First it all fell apart
where there was some things that happened,
specifically after a certain election where I was just like,
I do not understand this.
Like I don't understand how our faith,
this is how it's manifesting.
And I had to start from the beginning and just say,
what does this mean?
And my faith now doesn't look like what it did five, 10,
even when I was younger,
it has become this for me
it's more about how do I show up in the world
and the decisions that I make, how do they affect the whole.
Not just me.
Even as a black woman.
Because I think I resonate when you talk about
you can't let hate be the thing,
because at the end of the day I find myself getting to
the point where I don't even care if you're okay.
I don't care if you ever understand
that your privilege is wrong.
Demolish the whole thing, let's just move forward.
But how far does that actually get us?
- I don't know, I mean it's the right question.
- Right, are we just recreating what we've lived in now,
or are we actually creating something new
and imagining a world where there is actual connection
and believing that real community can exist.
Because there was a period of time
and I still struggle with it,
I didn't know if that was possible.
I was like, I don't know if we can actually live together.
- Yeah, I think I'm living in that question right now.
And it so goes against everything I believe.
But I don't see church helping.
- No right, no.
- It's definitely not leading on anything.
- It's not leading.
- It's not pastoring, it's not showing up.
- It's not telling the truth.
- It's not telling the truth.
I think it's marketing
and it staying safe and it's staying quiet,
it's trying not to ruffle too many feathers.
And I don't think that's not
the origins of the faith that I grew up in,
I don't recognize it today.
So I think I'm going back to the people that are,
shifting the lens.
Like shifting the lens helping me see it more,
like within the confines of what's happening today.
Like you can't be having it just be like all ideology
without it actually being implemented until today.
Whose life is different because of their faith,
those are the people I want to be around.
- That's right, reading your book,
your book got a lot of airtime
and airtime is not good for books in my house.
Because if I read something that's hard
I just toss it right across my bedroom.
- Oh that makes me so happy.
- Your book hits walls.
- I love it.
- The pain.
- It disappoints me when I ask people,
I ask people to do throw it.
And when people say no I'm like, "oh, okay."
- No, but I really--
- Why not?
- I threw it just pain,
because I think for me this is
the question that I'm wrestling with right now,
and I won't articulate it well because it's a new thought.
But I wanted to share it with you all,
because if not here, where?
There comes a moment when I'm reading your book,
and I've had this moment 100 times,
which is probably 99 times more than most people
who are white and have privilege.
But there comes a moment where I have to decide
whether you're bullshitting me or the pain is real.
I don't care if I'm reading Toni Morrison's "Beloved",
I don't care whether I'm reading your book.
There's just a pinpoint,
there's a moment where I have to say, is this true?
And every part of me is like,
I mean it's just hardwired in me,
no this is not true, she's exaggerating,
this couldn't happen,
they couldn't treat her like this at work.
And this is a Christian place.
I fight you.
And then I always ask myself
why is it so hard to believe it's true.
And the answer is pain.
Pain.
And it's like we have no tolerance for it,
we have no tolerance.
And all these really important really valuable
analysis of power and privilege are important.
But we're not talking about pain.
- This is such a great segue,
because one of the reasons
why we we're so excited to talk to you
is because it can be really difficult
to talk about what the themes
in your book mean for women of color.
Because it sounds really nice that black women are gonna
be courageous and brave and authentic and vulnerable,
but the price to pay for that in the workplace
for my story to be used against me.
For me to not be able to have playfulness,
to not be able to be goofy,
because I'm representing all black women
who will ever pass through these doors again.
It is so hard,
but it's genuinely hard to read and resonates with so much,
and then to think where could
I possibly put this into practice
that won't cause more pain for me.
- I think on the flip side, and I'll just add in,
and I'd love you to respond.
But I think you're talking
about people shying away from pain,
I think black women specifically we're like a pain vacuum,
we live in it constantly and it creates this
shell that it's so hard to.
And I think we're beginning to talk more about this,
like that's why we talk about joy being resistance,
and rest being resistance.
These things that should be just commonplace in people,
it's like this act of resistance,
because you are fighting through so much of that.
And so it's like that flip side of
like who's holding all this pain,
and then when we're sharing our pain it's like,
I don't know, I don't know if I believe you,
that can't be true.
And so I think that's the struggle,
when you're sharing these things,
and then someone doubts you and you're like,
okay, I don't know what else I can say.
- And how do you not internalize that,
and you're like maybe it isn't that big of a deal.
So it all becomes-- - Oh it is.
- Totally, but let's it sounds like--
- My therapist tells me.
- I think it's the right question,
and I think it's like,
it resonates with you and you read it,
and I talk to,
it's not just women of color,
it's any group that is marginalized in any space.
Says, yeah I want to be vulnerable too,
but this armor, this armor keeps me alive,
it keeps me employed.
- Right, right, right.
- So I understand you want me to take it off.
So here's the dilemma that we're all trying to figure out,
we have a belonging belief statement,
it's like our equity inclusivity statement
for my organization.
And we have, I think it's number five and six,
and one of them says we believe when we ask
that many people wear armor to stay alive,
to stay emotionally safe, sometimes physically safe.
And asking them to take it off
is asking them to risk physical, emotional,
spiritual danger.
Then the next one says,
but we believe asking generations
of people to have to wear armor every day
until we achieve perfect justice
is an unfair ask.
So until there are more black women leading,
Modeling vulnerability, making it safe.
Calling out people who said,
"Did you just use her vulnerability against her,
"did you just use what she shared?"
Until that, what is the answer?
The thing is,
there has got to be systemic change,
we cannot see the micro and macro apart.
You know what I mean, like we have to move policy-wise,
more representation
into leadership where there can be protection,
there can be a mentoring, there can be safety, real safety.
And at the same time how do we say,
you know what it can be better for people in 40 or 50 years,
you'll need to wear the 500 tons of armor every day,
even if it fricking kills you in the process.
So like how can we do that?
And I have to say I would think the most organic ally
for women of color in taking off armor
and showing up authentically should be white women.
- Should be.
- I don't know.
- I mean I think it speaks to how much whiteness is a drug.
- I was gonna say,
You're choosing your whiteness over your womanhood.
- Yeah, but even I watch the ways
that white women suffer upholding white supremacy.
You're not benefiting from this.
- No.
- Right?
Like there's something your soul isn't benefiting from
to be actually specific.
Your spirit, your personality.
- What you're driving might be...
- Right, is not benefiting from this.
And by separating from my pain
you're separating from your own pain.
- Totally.
But I think there's something else,
and I just don't, like I hate saying it,
but I know it's true.
It's also about men.
- Say that.
- It's also about I have made a deal,
I am in a contract right now.
And in order for me to get what I need,
I will catch the drippings of the power
from the white men around me
and I will take those drippings
and shape them into something for me.
So that explains that white female evangelical vote,
that explains like,
so it is a layer,
it is layers of race,
gender, class.
It's almost like it's easier for me to take
the scraps of power and do whatever I need to do to you
than it is to fight for my own.
Because generations, myself included,
were not raised that way.
And so I've come to believe, this is my new belief,
along with love, which I'm trying to get to.
Right now I'm just pissed off.
- Which I think is fair.
- Yeah, maybe pissed off comes before love.
- I think it does.
- But like five years of pissed off?
I'm tired of being that.
- But think about how long we've been doing this.
- Forever.
- Yeah, so five years in the span of things.
I mean I think there's so much that we have to reckon with,
that we have to wrestle with.
And part of it too I think is actually,
and I'm not old enough to feel like I can say this really,
but I think it's cyclical,
I think there's times when we feel like,
because I think the march towards justice
is five steps forward three steps back.
And I think that there are times when we feel like,
okay we're actually making progress.
And then there are times when it's like, wait, what?
- Progressions, regressions, progressions, regressions.
- Exactly.
- I really think white male power over,
not power within two,
the power over is really feeling
that they're making a last stand.
- Totally, it's like this final roar before hopefully, yeah.
- And I think last stands are violent and dangerous,
and many people are fighting for their lives.
And I really believe that the systems in place,
I don't believe in neutrality.
- I agree. - Totally.
- I believe you are either maintaining the systems
or you are dismantling them.
And for me that looks like
when I'm asked to speak somewhere,
I think about what it is they want me to talk about,
and the last three I've just turned them down and said,
there should be a woman of color.
I'm not going to do that.
Like follow,
listen.
Let others lead who have the experience.
- That is not what white men want to hear.
- That's not what anybody--
- Anybody.
- No white people at all,
white men or women want to hear that.
And I don't know, we have got a real.
I even think about the opioid epidemic
being evidence of somehow we have equated success with
if you're successful that means you don't feel pain.
We have no me,
and pain is part of the human experience,
it's how we grow and stretch and it's the stretchmarks.
And so I don't think we can get
where we need to go around race,
gender, any of it,
unless we're so good at causing pain,
and very bad at feeling pain.
- I think your work is amazing,
but I've also seen it being used
As a way of shielding,
white people shielding themselves from like,
racism or even talking about it.
It's like, shame is bad, don't shame me I'm not a racist.
- Don't call me a racist.
- Yeah exactly, that's a shame.
And I don't know whether that stems from your work,
but I think shame has become more of
a vernacular that we use these days.
But as you were talking I think
there is that need for people,
and I think it is a struggle
for white people to sit in pain,
because yes, that's a hard thing to hear.
But if you don't recognize that
and recognize that that's a wound in you.
Because I think sometimes when we say,
well I think that was a racist thing
or that person is racist,
it's like oh well, don't say a bad thing about me.
But it's identifying a wound,
because that is a break in connection with humanity.
- With self, with world, with God.
- Exactly, and so all of those things,
so it's just like naming that thing.
But people get so like, I don't want to deal with that.
And so for people like that I feel
like there's nothing else I can say.
We can't start there and say yes, this is a racist tendency,
I have racist tendencies in the world,
if you don't want to say I'm racist or whatever.
But if you can't start there
how do you move forward from that?
And so I think that being able to sit
in the pain of that and say yes.
My history is filled with this,
there has been abuse, there's been genocide,
all of that falls in the line of
how I get to sit here in this privilege today.
And now what?
How do we move forward?
How do I hear things.
How do I listen, how do I follow?
- I mean it makes me like, can shame be a tool towards,
like better, like better.
- I don't believe so.
I absolutely do not believe,
I believe shame is a tool of oppression,
it will never be an effective social justice tool, ever.
It is the tool of stigmatizing, reducing, dehumanizing.
I do not believe it will ever be a social justice tool.
I think about I took this whole course on Audre Lorde,
and I think of this whole idea of
the master's tools will not dismantle the master's house.
The shame is the tool of the patriarchy,
it's the tool of nationalism, it's the tool of supremacy.
Why would we ever pick it up to dismantle those things?
- Even hearing you use those other words, dehumanization,
like that's helpful right,
because so many people use shame and discomfort,
or shame and I don't like that.
Interchangeably, as opposed to right like,
dehumanization very different
from I've made you uncomfortable.
- I'm not dehumanizing you by saying you are racist.
- I would say, so here's what
I would say as the shame purest.
I would say there is a difference
between that is a racist statement,
a racist belief and you are a racist.
I would say there's a big difference,
and I'll tell you what difference is.
And I know I'm in weird territory here talking about this.
If, let's just take it out of
this room and use a very simple example.
You've got a child,
this is always a debate when I do parenting work.
Who has told you a lie, and you said you can't do that,
you can't lie.
What is the difference between that and saying,
"Hey, you're a liar."?
The difference is that shame corrodes
our belief that we can change or be better,
so if you are a racist there is no intervention point,
what is the change, it's who you are.
If you're a liar it's who you are.
If you're bad versus you made a bad choice as a kid,
you're just bad.
And so the way shame specifically disproportionately used
as a classroom management tool with children of color,
with poor kids, with kids.
And so the difference is if you say,
that is a very racist response.
Or there was so much deep racism in that.
There is an intervention point,
I have to change a belief or behavior,
this is not about who I am.
- Dr. Kendi just came out with this book.
And in his introduction he talks about the fact
that we can toss around who's racist
and who's not forever,
try to scale it up and take a test
and here's your quiz and all these things.
- I would love that actually.
- Right.
and he's like, but at the end of
the day we have to deal with the racist thought,
with the racist policy, with the way racism
is manifesting itself in the world
and leave who is or who isn't at the door,
because trying to figure that out isn't working.
It's taking too much of our energy
and focus off of actually dismantling
these things that are maintaining it,
whether or not we're involved or not.
- Right, and I think that's the hard thing about shame.
It's like, I'm a worrier
when it comes to my kids and things,
and I'm always worst-case scenario and things,
even though I tell people not to do that in my books.
Researcher heal thyself.
I get it, I'm working on it,
you don't have to be Freud to know
why I write about shame and these things,
because I suck at all of them.
But if I thought you could shame someone into changing,
even knowing how much pain shame causes us,
I would probably do it.
But what we know, I probably would
just to protect my kids, to protect things I believe in.
But here's what we know,
if you look at shame pro-ness in the general population,
it is so highly correlated with blame, rationalization,
violence, suicide, addiction,
depression, aggression.
Shame is not a moral compass,
what it causes us to do is to double down,
defend, blame, rationalize.
Does that make sense?
And so if someone said to me,
I just think if a teacher says to me,
"God you're stupid."
How do you get out from underneath that?
As opposed to look, you made D minus,
real stupid decision not to study for this test.
Who you are versus the choices you make,
it's a huge difference and we have a massive outcome.
Because I'll tell you
the difference between shame and guilt.
Is I've never had a conversation about race
where I did not painfully have to learn one new blind spot.
Ever.
And I just keep getting in them
because that's the only way through,
that's it, that's it.
And I think I'll tell you the other thing
that's very different for me then I think,
because I am a social worker,
and because I've spent
the last 22 years at the University of Houston,
most racially and ethnically diverse
research university in the country.
So my class is always 25% African-American,
25% white, 25% Latina.
That when I ask questions like:
tell me your instant bias,
it's always a black student will raise their hand and say,
if you cut me off and you got an old car
and you get out and you're Asian,
I'm gonna be like, hey, this isn't China.
The black students are talking about their racism and bias,
the Asian students are talking about it.
The Muslim students are talking about it.
I remember I wrote about this in one of the books,
it may have been "Daring Greatly",
I remember we did an exercise where everyone in the class
had to talk about their privilege
and what privilege they had.
Because I'm like, "You've got something,
"because this is graduate school,
"so you've got some privilege somewhere.
"We're in graduate school."
- Right.
- And I remember there was just quiet,
and I think the white students were really nervous.
They were like oh man, she doesn't understand how it works,
she said this is like a white exercise.
And finally a young black woman raised
her hand and she said,
"I wear my faith around my neck every day."
She had a cross.
And she said, "And I can wear it without people assuming
"that I'm dangerous or I'm trying to kill them."
And a Latino student raised his hand and said,
"I love to go to the movies,
"I love to hold hands with my wife.
"I don't have to worry about getting hit over the head
with a baseball bat
because I'm holding hands with someone."
And it was the most deeply humanizing,
you know like white supremacy is as real
as us sitting in this beautiful living room.
If we don't call it that, we can't fix it.
All the people from Texas who are like,
oh my God those are our statues.
I'm like,
what makes me so proud of being a Texan,
it is "know better do better".
Do you know what I mean like
changing the Albert Sidney Johnston School
to the Barbara Jordan proud Texas moment.
But there's so much fear.
- And it's way the system was set up,
it's set up to create fear and to separate us
so that we don't think about.
And I think we were just talking about white women
and women of color,
that division, that's intentional, right?
- Oh it serves tons of people.
- Exactly.
You take this little,
you get the rest of those little scraps and then fighting--
- Amongst yourselves.
- When we know that there would be, like you said--
- That's it.
- It would be our greatest ally,
we would be each others greatest ally.
Women, black women were
a major part of the feminist movement,
even when they knew that
they weren't gonna get the right to vote.
There were black women saying,
I'm still gonna fight for this.
So I think we see what happens,
but then white supremacy says, you're better off separate.
And this would be better for us at the end of the day,
and we get nothing done,
we just keep like fighting for that.
- A fight amongst yourself is
the most silent dangerous tool of oppression.
- Totally.
- I mean it is.
And you see we have an administration now
that just pushes so much divisiveness
and so much fear.
- Fear everyone.
Fear everyone, fear everything.
- Every day.
- Just be afraid all the time.
- Well it's working, because I am.
- Yeah, no, it's totally working.
It is like power 101.
If you want to rule the world there's just a few secrets,
one, keep everyone really afraid.
Two, give them someone to blame for their fear.
And sell them certainty in times of mass vulnerability.
That's it.
That's it, that's all you have to do.
Give them someone to hate, someone to blame,
keep them afraid,
and peddle uncertainty when everyone's unsure.
It sounds good to me, but I'm really afraid,
I just know it makes everyone crazy and dangerous.
- Yeah, I don't know how to like,
I have all these like random, disparate thoughts,
I heard an interview with you what you're defining blame
as a way to discharge pain and discomfort,
and then I'm quoting you again,
where you can either have courage or you can have comfort,
you can't have both.
And I wonder if white women
are choosing comfort over courage again and again.
That there's like a known with
just maintaining white supremacy,
there is a known with
upholding the patriarchy that feels comfortable,
and that is somehow appealing and keeping us complacent.
Right?
So how do you make courage,
yeah like be inevitable?
- Desirable?
- Yeah, how do you make that so compelling
that it's worth to leave that,
yeah, and I would say that I think your work
is encouraging individuals to leave individual comfort.
How do we take that and like multiply it,
and make it a massive, let's all be doing this together?
- I thought it was gonna be at church.
I don't know, I have moments I'm in Episcopal pain,
there are moments where we had the Episcopal meet up
of all the bishops and stuff recently in Texas
and they went to the detention centers on the border
in full regalia,
and they had an anti-gun rally
and so I was really proud at
that moment of the Episcopal Church,
because that's how you keep
white people with money at the church.
So I don't know,
I was hoping the faith communities
would lead a little some of that,
because it seems like Jesus is a great example of someone
who was willing to piss off people and be a rebel around.
Collective courage, it's interesting,
I don't think it takes a whole lot of people.
It takes a critical mass of people.
- When I think about every social movement we've had,
none of them have involved everyone.
- Right. - Right.
- Always people who are fighting against it, right?
But the committed push on anyway.
- And I think it's policy,
I think you've got to change policy.
I think oh man, I saw this graphic,
hold on, let me think about what it said.
It was Angela Davis holding a sign that said
racism is systemic, its violent outbursts are all connected.
And so racism is systemic,
its violent outbursts are all connected.
Like rhetoric around immigrants that's dehumanizing,
and then the El Paso shooting, theory, action.
And so we're reading the new anti-racism book
as our organization, our company redirect now,
and the whole idea of system change, policy change.
And weirdly in some ways corporations
are doing a better job,
they are much less tolerant
in some ways than our government right now.
- I think that's again, because of Title Nine,
and other policies--
- I think it's other policies.
- That says you must look at this.
- But I think also though
that we have seen all these companies
get reamed for doing things that are really insensitive,
but I think there's also, not to be crass,
but it's more profitable,
the more diverse you are the better you can reach out to,
because our world is just becoming more diverse,
in some ways you have to start doing those things,
you have to start changing if you want to keep making money.
But our government doesn't have to.
- But you know that's really,
not only is that a really great point, I'll take it.
- Oh yeah.
- I'm sold.
Like I'll take it.
Because it's really interesting when you go,
because I do a lot of leadership work,
and you go to these leadership events
and you'll have people presenting,
you can see that companies are pretty terrified
because they're like for the first time ever
there are consumers who can organize online
in 10 minutes and bring down a brand or a company.
So these big companies that want diverse consumers
need diverse leaders.
And so I'll take it that way.
- We have got to start somewhere.
- Right, and I just,
I don't know, I just always was a big believer
in we should have a government
that takes care of the most vulnerable people,
and I just don't know that the government is.
- Right, we really need to be changing hearts and minds,
if at the end of the day we can change the outcome,
like if we can, right?
- I mean that's like--
- I think we have to do both.
- For sure.
- But I will take that.
- Exactly, it's the outcome that changes.
- Because when people are dying and on the street,
then yes, I want to policy change.
But I know that that won't sustain us
unless people start coming behind that.
There is some sort of change.
But trust me, I want both,
I want protection--
- I'm with you.
- But I also want,
I want just for my own self and for the future,
my niece and my nephew and the kids that I see,
I want a world where they don't have
to keep struggling like this.
When I'm any role when I'm in a position,
like you were talking about always think
about who's coming behind me
and how am I creating a space where people are like,
you know what, this is better.
- Totally.
- We may have had to do this, but now this is better,
because we're seeing things from a different perspective.
There is no way you can make the best decision
and everybody around the table is the same.
You just can't.
- You just can't.
- It's just impossible.
- At the end of the day there's just so much data on it now.
Like just companies that have women,
Companies that have people of color, they just do better,
they perform better.
- Exactly, and that's in every aspect.
And I'm glad corporations are doing it,
but churches should be doing this,
or schools should look better.
We see the impact of people
who have teachers who look like them,
I didn't have a teacher that looked like me,
a professor that looked like me or a teacher
that looked like me until I was in grad school.
- Yep, I was in college.
- What does that do to your psyche,
and some in every space I think we have to start doing that.
But I'm hoping that places that are modeling this,
because it's better for their bottom line,
it's gonna start something
that we start seeing this everywhere,
even in places where they're not making a profit.
But we got better leaders, we get better employees.
- It's just better.
And not seeing yourself, not seeing yourself.
I remember first year of my doctoral program I went to like,
I don't know there was like,
I forget, we had a new president coming in,
so they sent an academic
from every university in the country
and they walk down in a line like
in Harvard's version of the oldest university,
and I just remember looking over to
the person sitting next to me and I was like,
and he looked at me and he goes, "pale male Yale".
And I was like, yeah.
Oh my God.
And then I got pregnant in my doctoral program
and I remember the person telling me,
my doctoral program director at the time,
we thought you were gonna be somebody.
And I was like, it's like a baby, not a lobotomy.
- I can still work.
Yeah I can do this,
but just not seeing yourself reflected back
in the world that you want to be a part of
and make a contribution in.
- And then that sends the message
that you don't belong here.
- And that's the painful message.
- Are you have to be like us,
if you want to even attempt to belong.
It's not a fully open door.
- You don't want to notice
that you actually aren't one of us.
- Right and I think that was
what was painful about your book.
Yeah painful, that's the only word I can think of.
Eye opening, healing, but right after the pain
like there was the pain and then the other part.
And I just think people are not willing to fill it.
- Yeah, well I've said this to you
I think your book gave language to a like of similar,
I think what you've talked about in your work,
that it's getting language
to things that seemingly go hidden or invisible,
until you actually let people into them.
Yeah like, I know this
isn't just like a yay for Austin's book,
but it could be.
- I'm for it.
- Okay great,
when you go through your day--
- Oh my God.
- I feel that that was the ballgame,
that for so many people was like holy,
that was one day, that was one day,
and just thing after thing after thing.
That's weighing you down and that you had no outlet for it.
- And I know, I think I read
it before it was even published,
so you sent it to me,
and I remember I responded,
I was like, "thank you for writing this,
this is my story."
- You did, I remember.
- I felt like this is, this is me on paper.
And we worked in the same institution,
we didn't know each other until like the very end.
But I remember the first time we had coffee
and there were very few, I think--
- Maybe five.
Maybe out of 250.
- Yeah, like five women.
- Not even women.
- No, just by black people.
- Black people, yeah.
So I remember sitting down with you and,
I don't know why we met
but I just remember it was an hour or two later,
and we're like why have we not.
- I wanted to climb in her lap.
- It was just--
- Yeah, it was the most healing space that I had ever.
And we worked at a church.
And I will always say for black women
the most healing space you can ever be
in as with other black women,
because at that moment
you're finishing each other's sentences,
you don't even have to, but they know.
- And they believe you.
- Exactly, you don't have to qualify it.
And I think that is one of the most exhausting things,
it's like when you are,
when you are walking through this and you take the most,
step out in courage and saying
I'm gonna share this with someone.
Who's not like me, and they don't believe you.
- So painful.
It's so painful.
- And people wonder, they always talk about strong women,
black women,
and that has been because you get that,
you retreat right back and you put that back up.
And you're like, you know what,
I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna soldier through.
And what kind of life is that?
That's not wholehearted living like you're talking,
that is not it at all.
It is just, and then,
but it takes so much time to undo all of that.
And I am grateful because I think there is
this revolution between black women
where we're finding each other in more spaces,
and we're starting to say,
even if the world doesn't support you, we've got your back.
We will be behind you as we do this,
and I'm hoping that creates even more change.
But it takes an army,
for every black woman you see
out there doing whatever she's doing,
you know there is a massive group of people behind her
That are--
- Cheering her on,
supporting her. - Supporting her,
cheering her and saying we got you.
- Listening and believing.
- Without question.
And I think that's the thing that I,
and I'm not gonna say that I don't,
I have white women in my life that are amazing
and will believe me,
and that is the healing thing in itself when you are like,
okay, now I have found you and I will hold on to you,
but that's not everybody.
And it is hard to get into that,
I don't know if you feel the same way,
but I'm very distrustful,
I just assume the worst immediately.
- Oh you better come with a resume, cover letter.
- Evidence.
- Yeah, because the betrayal history.
It's like the betrayal history.
- There's a movie that Jenny
and I saw when we were in college,
I think this part two of "The Color of Fear",
I don't think it was the original "Color of Fear".
I think they did a couple more
and there's one with just women,
multiracial women sitting in a group.
And there was a white woman who was crying
and talking about how she's trying to be loving
and kind to the black women in the room
and the black women just ignores her
and won't give her a chance,
and it just hurts her heart that she isn't trusted.
And the black woman, like you watch her inhale and exhale.
And she says, "I need you to know
"that every time I form a relationship
with another white person
I am crawling on my hands and knees
over the broken shards
of other relationships where I was betrayed."
- But I also believe, like I read this,
you cannot lead a diverse team
if you do not lead a diverse life.
- Yes. - Hot damn.
- Hot damn.
- Yes.
- I just think, all my gosh, yes.
- Is that the great quote?
- That does not just mean being married
to or having a child of color.
- Oh my God, they think that's the golden ticket.
- It's like my spouse,
or people talk about we want
to work on diversity in our company,
let's have a workshop, let's have a class.
I'm like, that's not gonna do anything.
- It's not a one and done.
- If the people you're learning from
is not a diverse group of authors,
if you don't have a diverse group of friends,
the movies should you go see, the music that you listen to,
the world that you immerse--
- Movies, music, yes.
- All of that stuff,
you can't be reading the same people all the time
and then say you care about diversity.
Like show me your life,
and then I'll tell you whether or not--
- You care about diversity.
- Yeah.
- And in their neighborhoods.
- Yes. - Yes.
- If you have to get on a plane
to go somewhere to see people of color
- Right.
- Oh my gosh.
Well we used to do an activity when we would lead workshops
where we gave everyone marbles,
and then we went down a list and it was like,
watch the last two restaurants you went to.
Did the people look like you are not?
What's the last movie you watched?
And down, down, down, down.
And then you get this inventory of either,
and usually it is--
- Like here is your representation.
- Here's your representation.
- Are all your models white.
- Yes, or are they a different color.
And it was like so powerful just to see that
and to realize you have power
over every single one of these choices.
- That's right, this isn't big stuff.
- Yeah, this is not crazy.
Like who did you invite over for dinner last Sunday.
What book did you,
no one is telling you you cannot read books.
No one is screening you for movies,
these are all things that you have agency over.
- We want you to participate in culture.
- Right.
- And hopefully--
- That's true, right.
And it's like, and I think about the diverse life I've led,
and how I can't deny.
I remember the first time I am a shopper for sure,
but I can remember the first time
I was ever followed in a store.
I was with a black friend
and we were at the store that will remain unnamed,
and we were just shopping--
- This time.
- This would be Brene Brown outs the store.
- No, yeah, it would not be
a shockeroo in Texas about the store.
And I was with my friend Eliza,
and we were working together
at child protective services in Houston,
I mean in San Antonio,
and I was like, God, this guy is flirting hard core.
Eliza was like.
- That is not what's happening.
- She looks at me and she goes,
"You cute, but you ain't that cute."
I was like, "What?"
And she goes, "Watch, I'll make him flirt with me."
And I was like, "What are you gonna do?"
And she said, "I'm just gonna move over here 10 feet."
And I was like what is happening.
And then I was like,
oh my God he's following us because you're black.
And he thinks we're shoplifting.
I'm gonna go, and she's like,
"Oh no, white savior, I do not need you."
And she's like, "I got to be back at work in an hour,
I will not have time to go to jail right now."
- But this is so real,
the ways that black women and other women of color,
other people of color have
to navigate actual instances of racism on a regular basis
and decide I do not have time for the shenanigans.
- Exactly.
- And it was like, this is unconstitutional.
This is bullshit.
And she goes, "Oh my God, write about it
in a paper for school."
And I was like--
- That happens to me.
- Then we go out on a visit
and we're in a hard neighborhood,
and we're pulling up to a light
and there's a group of kids and they look rough,
and she goes "lock your door."
And I was like, "I'm not locking my door."
I said, "I'm not locking the door."
I was like, "That's so racist."
She said, "I'm not dying because of your white guilt.
"I'm not gonna die today because you're a white guilty girl,
"lock your door."
I was like, and this was every interaction we had,
so I was like, oh.
And she goes, "Okay."
Then, this gets worse.
Then like a month later I'm in Kansas City,
and again I'm doing work with a friend,
she is black, she goes,
"I've never had a white person over in my house before."
And I was like, "You're old, like we're 40."
and she's like, "Never."
She's like, "Do you want to come over for dinner tonight?"
and I was like, "Yes."
and she said, "I'm gonna make soul food."
And I was like, "I'm so excited" because any kind of food,
that sounds really good.
I was so bummed out, we get to her house,
she's like, "Come in."
I was like, "Stop giving me the side eye,
"I'm not gonna take anything."
And she's like, "All right, here's dinner."
and it was like country ribs, greens,
and I was like, "I was excited about soul food."
And she's like, "What?"
And I said, "I was excited that we were gonna eat soul food"
And she said, "This is soul food."
And I said, "I eat this at my grandma's house every Sunday."
She said, "You grandma black?"
Because she is like, "I think that's where Brené came from."
And I was like, "No, my grandma is white."
And she's like, "She's southern and poor?"
and I'm like, "Yes."
She's like, "Okay"
Yes and what I realized is like,
one of the things I have in common
I think with a lot of my black girlfriends,
not all, but many, the first was class.
Was like upbringing, was church,
but when you lead that life
and you have friends that are different from you,
you can't get to the pain point in your book.
And deny the truth of it,
because you're the friend
they're crying with in the elevator.
But I don't know how we're gonna fix that,
because as we come more fearful we become more sorted.
I mean we literally people are moving.
- We get our corners.
- We are the most sorted geographically
in the history of our country.
That we have ever been,
there's this great book called "The Big Sort"
that talks about the shifting demographic
where people don't even want to go to grocery stores,
or church or their kids go
to school with people who believe--
So how, if we all agree,
and I think we agree right
that you have to live a diverse life,
if you're gonna be a diverse person?
- Yeah, I think the lack of proximity is a huge issue.
And our work spaces,
some of them have diverse some of them are not.
But if you are in one,
even that is it's very compartmentalized,
where it's like okay, this is what I do here,
then I go to my neighborhood and all of my neighbors,
they look all the same,
our churches are even more segregated.
- I think they are the most segregated now.
- I don't think it's getting better.
Our schools, that's a whole other.
The thing is I think it's like I think at some point
we have to,
it's about the choices that we make,
so how do we.
Because all those things add up,
so we want good schools for our kids,
and yet so that means,
I got to pick a school in the wealthy neighborhood
and want to make sure.
And it's all good intentions, right?
Like I want my kid to be safe,
I want them to have a good education,
I want them to be able to get a great job.
So what does that mean?
I have to pull myself away
and make sure everything around me
brings safety for my kids
and that they're gonna succeed.
And at some point I think we have to think about
what's best for the greater good.
It's not just about my kid, but it's about the other kids.
And not just in our neighborhood, but in our city.
I think we just don't think about those things.
It's all like how do I protect my own?
- Well it's hyper-individualized,
which is also probably a tool of white supremacy,
because you're only thinking about the individual,
you're not thinking about a collective ever.
So not only making all of those choices out of that.
- When you're thinking about the collective
it's still built on racist ideals.
So the difference between
the good school and the bad school,
what does that mean, does that mean black and white,
or does that actually mean resource poor.
- Test scores.
- And is there a place in our imaginations
where a good school could be the diverse one?
- There is a sharing of resources,
we're not hoarding all the resources in one part.
- And everybody gets a free lunch.
- Exactly.
- That defines a good school.
- I'm gonna be the terrible person here.
- Do it. - Go ahead.
- That's gonna have to be policy change,
no one is going to do that.
No one, when it comes to their kid,
is going to make a collective political choice
over the safety and education of their child
if they have the resources to make the change.
That is gonna have to be,
that is gonna have to be like.
Do you think I've just gotten--
- No but this is the thing--
- Do I not believe in people any more, like what's?
- I think there's proof.
- We've segregated,
there was policy that integrated schools
and what happened was that white people are like,
hell no, I'm not gonna do this.
- Let me get out of the policy.
- I'm moving--
- White flight.
- Yeah, we're gonna create,
we'd rather see that's cool just fail
than send our kids there.
So they have to figure out a way to fix it.
So I think that even with policy
people have to want that.
Because they will figure out a way around it.
- Right.
- So here's the good news.
I'm gonna give you some good news.
On a drink share.
- Cheers to good news.
- Cheers to good news.
I hate going back to this because
I am the last evangelist for corporations,
but I will say that one of the things I'm seeing
is there has been a little bit of a loss of
that kind of infatuation with the Ivys,
because they are looking more at hiring
people who have had exposure to diverse people
and can move around people comfortably.
So again.
- There are a lot of awkward white people in the world.
- Oh my God.
Let me tell you something.
I am probably one of them too.
but I will tell you all this story.
I took a class, I tell this story sometimes
to help people understand some of the things.
So there was a class at UT Austin called The Black Family,
and I took this class and I was super excited
that Professor of this class, Ruth McRoy
famous trans-racial adoption expert, just incredible.
And I go in and the class is probably 90% black.
And I go in and I have a seat next to a friend of mine
who is in the social work program.
And we're talking, she is black,
and we are talking and class starts
and Doctor McRoy comes to the front,
she just commands, everybody's quiet.
She started to talk about the black family
and then in bops this young woman,
blonde, big ponytail.
And I'm like,
don't sit next to me, don't sit next to me.
No, no, no, no.
And she's coming and my friend goes,
"She's coming for you."
And I was like, oh my God.
So she sits next to me and Doctor McRoy is talking.
And she goes.
- Oh no.
- And you can just see me,
I'm like, I was like, and she goes,
"Here's the question I have."
- Oh God.
- She said, "if there was a class
at the University of Texas
at Austin called The White Family,
people would say that was racist.
And Doctor McRoy she doesn't move a muscle,
she's just like,
"What's interesting there are 77 courses
at the University of Texas on the family,
all of them by default would be the White family.
And there was just like,
if looks could kill this person.
So by this time my ass is all the way hanging on,
I'm in the lap of my friend over here, and she says.
- I'm not here.
- She's like, "Don't worry, we can tell you all apart."
I was like, oh my God.
But every class period she would a,
but there were like 75 classes.
- What kills me is that white people actually
think they've come up with a new thing.
- No, it's nothing original.
- She really believed that
she was gonna march into that room--
- She's gonna razzle-dazzle.
- And a professor was not going to have a response.
- That's true.
- This is reverse racism, it does exist.
- It was.
- And you found it.
- That's the one with the label.
- But it's like I thought that answer,
and I don't usually share that whole part of the story,
I just share the question,
but don't share my own awkward white person.
Anyway.
- Professor I'd just like to say you're doing a great job.
- And I understand clearly why we need this class.
Could you imagine that?
- Got Brené Brown.
- My name is Cassandra.
Just in case that makes a difference.
- Cassandra Brené Brown here.
But it was just when people say,
I don't understand what does that mean,
I was like, unless the class is about the black family
or the Latino family, the default is the white family.
That means, all of the research, all of the books,
all of the writers, all of the studies.
Just like when breast cancer research first came out,
all the studies on breast cancer on men.
People are dying.
And so, they're like so,
the dominant one's invisible?
- I'm like, welcome.
- I'm sorry that you're in
a grad school that you're learning this.
That is mind blowing.
But it's not.
- This is actually an undergrad class, I'll give her that.
- There are a lot of aha--
- She didn't stop asking.
- Of course not
- Right.
- Because that's the difference I think white people,
it doesn't even matter
if they are the minority in the group,
they will always take up the comfortable
- As much space as they can.
- Yes exactly.
And it's always shocking to me,
you just feel comfortable
in any space you walk into.
But that's--
- Actually.
- Yeah exactly.
Because I'm not, like I know what I want,
I'm like I'm sizing up everything.
- I know immediately whether or not I need to shrink.
- Yes, exactly.
And I never see that, and this just like wow.
That is, it's impressive.
And not probably in a good way.
I was like impressive or entitled.
- But when you don't experience that,
it can mask as bravery and mask as--
- Oh it's not bravery.
- Well it's not, but not until we have unpacked it,
as a black woman who was often in rooms as the only one
who's watching other women, white,
but other women command a room.
And I'm like, I know I have that in me.
- Is it bravery or is it confidence
or is i?
- Usually in my head I'm like well that's bold.
- What I think entitled is the right word.
- I think entitled is the right word.
- I think it is, but is it coming across, I wonder, yeah.
- I think it's entitlement
and I think it's built on a foundation of physical safety.
- Wherever you go.
- I think it's an assumption of physical safety.
Like you know, and so I think--
- It's true, there are.
This is really interesting,
because white people so often think of themselves as safe,
that their neighborhoods are safe
and their schools are safe,
and they have done all this work around safety.
And they're not safe for people of color.
But they would never think that about themselves.
So like the black neighborhood is
the place that is not safe.
As opposed to me being in this ritzy corporate organization,
like that's where I'm not safe.
- Or in an all-white neighborhood.
- Wow, talk about not feeling safe.
- It's like the opening of "Get Out".
- Exactly.
- Where he's walking and he's like,
I don't want to be here.
- And I feel the temperature in my body rising.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - That's real.
- That's real.
- Yeah, I just read this interesting study
that slowing people down can reduce implicit bias.
And so there is like,
what is like one of the social media group website things
where you can check on things like Next-door Neighbor,
or Next Door or something like that?
- Yeah I think it's Next Door.
- Where they have a lot
of like kinda racist profiling of like,
you know Mexican guy in the neighborhood.
Or you know.
So she's a professor and a researcher,
and they reduced that racial profiling by 75%
by having people before they could register
a complaint or a fear,
check three boxes.
One of them is the definition of racial profiling.
And you have to check
that you have read the definition of that.
And that just slowed people down enough,
and it's like how do we slow people down
to recognize the dehumanization, you know like--
- So there is a Harvard implicit bias test
where you have to press the keys to identify
scary, harmful, whatever.
And the only instruction if I'm remembering correctly,
the only instruction is that you have to do it fast.
Because if you slow your brain down
you can interrupt the bias.
- That's right.
- But that's how things happen, they happen so quickly.
I see that person, I probably don't even see their face,
all I see is their skin color or how they're dressed.
- Some sort of marker.
- Whatever that is.
I'm gonna make my own decision and call the cops.
- Or pull the trigger.
- That's why representation--
- And that's why that marble class matters,
that if you're trying to disrupt all of those norms
to like offset all of
these stereotypes that you're getting.
- Accumulating.
- Yeah, that you're accumulating
that your subconscious is absorbing,
because that message is coming in from all of us
and we have to like,
we have to seek out alternative messaging.
- But we also need to fight for leaders.
Leaders of color.
I was just listening to Stacey Abrams talk about,
like you know, because people are like,
oh yeah, you should run for president,
and she's like no, I was focused on the governorship.
She's like, there's power in that,
and think about how many governors of color we have.
Like you need that, it can't just be the president,
it's got to be at all levels.
- And we've seen that.
- Yeah, exactly.
That didn't fix anything.
- Intervention has to be, yeah.
No, and yeah.
- There's a lot of work to do.
- There is a lot of work to do,
and I think it's,
I just think it's got to be micro
and macro at the same time,
it's got to be the promotion for the manager
that works at Starbucks and the governor
and the top leaders and it's gonna be,
and I hope you open your heart and come with us.
But if you don't that's okay too,
because we're going.
Does that make sense?
- We're not through, I agree.
- This is an invitation.
I'd like to come along the journey, that's great.
But you can also just sit on the sidelines
of history if that's what you choose to do.
- And we'll wave at you as we walked by.
- But we have to.
And I think people in fear are dangerous.
And I think for some reason, well not for some reason,
we've got nothing but that rhetoric
for the last three years,
that power is finite.
If I give you a piece
that means I'll have seven pieces left,
as opposed to what I think we all believe,
which its power is infinite
and the more you share it the more you grow it.
It's like empathy or compassion or anything,
it's just not finite.
- There's enough, there's enough.
- There's enough.
We are enough, and there's enough.
And I think my commitment is to really keep looking
and talking about the grief that happens,
I think especially for women
of color who read my book and say,
yes, I'm dying under this armor,
but it's not safe for me to take it off.
I resonate with everything you say,
but perfect allows me to keep putting food on the table.
And until we get more,
to be honest with you, not female leaders,
but women of color in leadership positions
and leader positions outside of DNI,
outside of HR.
- I mean.
- Yes we need them there too.
- I mean I love talking about diversity and inclusion,
don't get me wrong, that's my jam,
but we should not be relegated to that.
- COO, CFO, CEO.
It's got to be in places where the focus is just not people.
Because just like you mention,
it is the right thing for the bottom dollar,
for the consumer, for every piece of it.
And it's okay to have more than one woman of color
in your C suite, that's all I'm gonna say.
It won't blow up.
- It always will in all the right ways.
- And I think we all have work to do, myself included.
Everybody.
- What I feel like if black women have
to read all these books,
and watch these documentaries and understand history,
if we have to do all this work.
White people, I'm gonna need
for you not to take yourselves off the hook.
- Read the book, throw it across the room, get it.
- Do what you got to do.
- And reread it.
- I'm in for the long walk.
- Oh yes thank you, thank you Brené.
- Thanks for having me.
- We don't know how to adjust
the fact that this stuff is still in the air.
People tell the story
like Dr. King preached the I Have a Dream speech,
and then ascended into heaven.
- Especially an anti-racism work,
I say that black women are 100% experts regardless.
- Yes.
- I am deeply invested in building movements
where folks aren't shamed for not coming out of the womb,
understanding cis hetero patriarchal violence.
- Prison isn't addressing trauma,
it's not addressing violence.
Prison is a place of trauma and violence.
- Everything in the news is just like beating us down.
I want to see stories
about black women succeeding and thriving.
- Black folks in a white space.
- Listen, you find each other.
- You may not have shit in common,
but you're gonna be friends, right?
- I love all the warmup questions, I really.
- I was like, "Hell, we're here."