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  • Robert's terribly good until his batteries go down.

  • Energizer bunny.

  • That's true.

  • Ready?

  • Go.

  • Labour's leading indicators.

  • Okay, Robert.

  • It's very exciting, because...

  • We've got another election.

  • ...the shortlists are in for the Oscars.

  • But we're going to talk about the Labour leadership.

  • What should we call these?

  • The Jeremies?

  • The Jeremies.

  • Let's call them the Jeremies.

  • Excellent.

  • And we've got all our major players

  • here to help explain what's going on.

  • And of course, until April - don't get too excited,

  • folks - because until April, Jeremy

  • himself remains leader of the opposition.

  • But there are lots of people vying to succeed him and to be

  • deputy leader of the Labour party,

  • which is also its own elected position with its own mandate.

  • So we've got Jeremy benignly watching over it.

  • Yes, absolutely.

  • Let's put him up there.

  • We'll put him up here, watching benignly from the allotment.

  • And down here, this sort of large, shadowy figure

  • of Len McCluskey, head of Unite, the union.

  • Has been incredibly powerful as a backer of the Corbyn regime

  • in the Labour party.

  • So he's here because he obviously wants

  • to retain this giant influence.

  • He's got a lot to lose, hasn't he?

  • Will he be able to?

  • And Jeremy Corbyn's office was stuffed full

  • of McCluskey allies.

  • He had Karie Murphy.

  • He had Andrew Murray.

  • He had Jenny Formby as the party general secretary, and Seumas

  • Milne as well.

  • So he's probably got as much of an empire

  • to lose as Jeremy Corbyn.

  • Absolutely.

  • We've learned who's in the running, who's

  • got through the initial stage of being nominated by the MPs

  • and MEPs.

  • And so far, Len McCluskey's organisation has not yet

  • declared who it's officially backing,

  • but we think that it will be Rebecca Long-Bailey,

  • who is the Corbynite left candidate.

  • She's been desperately trying to say she's not the continuity

  • Corbyn candidate.

  • What's Barry Gardiner doing here?

  • Barry Gardiner...

  • look.

  • We were cutting out all the faces.

  • At the point where we were cutting out the faces,

  • Barry Gardiner was thinking about standing.

  • He didn't make it.

  • There will be no Gardiner's question time, sadly.

  • Say bye bye, Barry.

  • Rebecca Long-Bailey, shadow business secretary.

  • Very, very close to Jeremy Corbyn.

  • But she's not out in front.

  • No.

  • When this contest began, when it was clear

  • that Jeremy Corbyn lost the election,

  • the left of the party, the Corbynites,

  • needed a flag-waver.

  • Rebecca Long-Bailey had been in place for a long time

  • as their next-generation candidate,

  • a protege of John McDonnell.

  • She was the one they were all pinning their hopes on.

  • But it did feel like it's come a bit too soon for her.

  • She's only been in the Labour party for 10 years.

  • Only been in parliament for five.

  • She's perfectly able, but she is still learning the way,

  • and she hasn't fizzed out of the blocks, which means, therefore,

  • that the front-runner in the polls so far is Keir Starmer,

  • who is the shadow Brexit secretary,

  • the man who led the Remain argument within the Labour

  • party.

  • The fact that he is the front-runner may not

  • be entirely coincidental to the fact

  • that all of the Corbynite left is saying what they need

  • is somebody who's not from London, not a man, and not

  • a Remainer.

  • So you could see that in a run-off between these two,

  • those criteria would favour one candidate.

  • They would.

  • They would.

  • They would.

  • But I think we should just emphasise quite

  • how far out in front Keir Starmer is at the moment.

  • When you look at the nominations from the...

  • You were specifically told not to make

  • this prep sheet visible.

  • God, I'm a reporter.

  • You are defying the producers.

  • I've got a notebook.

  • What do you want me to do?

  • Keir Starmer has got 89 nominations

  • from the parliamentarian.

  • It's 102 isn't it?

  • Yeah, but it's plus the MEPs as well, remember?

  • Rebecca Long-Bailey has 33.

  • So they are the two front-runners.

  • But you can see the scale of the challenge

  • if the leader of the opposition was voted on just

  • by the parliamentary party.

  • But of course, it isn't.

  • And of course, that is roughly the level of nominations

  • that Jeremy Corbyn got when he stood.

  • He only just squeaked over the line.

  • Most of the MPs were against him.

  • So support from the MPs themselves is certainly

  • no guarantee of victory.

  • Although, as you were saying, the only poll that's been

  • conducted... have I got to this poll too early?

  • Yeah.

  • As you were saying...-

  • Park it.

  • Park it.

  • Lisa Nandy.

  • Park the poll, because I want to talk about Lisa Nandy.

  • He's my personal favourite.

  • I know we're completely unbiased,

  • but you'll like her very much.

  • And also, Jess Phillips got through.

  • Let's clear the deputy leadership candidate.

  • Yeah.

  • Let's get the deputies out of the way.

  • Leadership candidate's down.

  • Len.

  • I'm putting you on the floor for a minute, Len.

  • Don't take it personally.

  • Clive didn't make it, either.

  • Clive.

  • No, but talk about Clive, because you liked him.

  • I like him, personally.

  • I think he's interesting and clever.

  • He's a former soldier.

  • He could have been an interesting candidate

  • for the Labour party, but he's fighting for a lot of the same

  • left space that Rebecca Long-Bailey and, to some

  • extent, Lisa Nandy were fighting for in that Corbynite,

  • soft Corbynite place, and he just didn't make it.

  • So I'm afraid he...

  • Bye, Clive.

  • Bye, Barry Gardiner.

  • Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.

  • Out.

  • Now, Lisa Nandy.

  • She got 31, which is not bad if you consider that Rebecca

  • Long-Bailey, who's the official left standard bearer,

  • as you said...

  • for Lisa Nandy to get 31 and to be safely through

  • is quite good.

  • Jess Phillips and Emily Thornberry.

  • They just made it through.

  • 23.

  • 23 apiece.

  • ...each.

  • And in fact, even on the morning of the day

  • the nominations closed, Emily Thornberry

  • looked like she might not make it.

  • So that's quite a victory for her.

  • So if we ranked them in MP order, it goes like that,

  • doesn't it?

  • We've got Keir Starmer seen as, possibly,

  • quite sober, prime ministerial, and attempting to say, let's

  • put factionalism behind us.

  • I've got people in my campaign from both the left

  • and the right of the party.

  • Let's put the divisions behind us.

  • We've got Rebecca Long-Bailey of the left, the left candidate.

  • Lisa Nandy, trying to make a pitch,

  • saying we've got to bridge the divide between these two halves

  • of our party, between the metropolitan,

  • liberal wing of Labour and our heartland towns.

  • She represents Wigan, a Leave seat,

  • and she's been very interesting ever

  • since the referendum on the idea of people

  • who feel their whole culture has been left behind,

  • and they've been disenfranchised in the industrialised areas.

  • We've got Jess Phillips, Birmingham MP.

  • Very, very outspoken.

  • Very anti-Corbyn.

  • And very, very anti-Corbyn.

  • The most anti-Corbyn, probably, of the whole lot,

  • because she never served.

  • And then Emily Thornberry here, of course, was

  • shadow foreign secretary but has got a problem,

  • hasn't she, which is maybe why she only just made it

  • onto the ballot.

  • Which is she?

  • Is she an anti-Corbyn candidate, or is she

  • a continuity Corbyn candidate?

  • I think that's quite tricky for her, possibly.

  • I don't know that I would ever have

  • thought of her as a continuity Corbyn candidate.

  • Obviously, another way of cutting these...

  • But close to leadership.

  • ...would be this way.

  • These are the three who served under Jeremy Corbyn.

  • Lisa Nandy did briefly, and then quit.

  • Resigned.

  • Yeah.

  • Jess Phillips never did.

  • So these three all stuck with him.

  • These two didn't.

  • Emily Thornberry, prior to Jeremy Corbyn's election,

  • would have been seen very much on the Blairite, Brownite end

  • of the party.

  • Certainly no left radical, but she was Jeremy

  • Corbyn's next-door neighbour and Islington MP.

  • She stayed loyal.

  • She got promoted.

  • She had been sacked from the shadow cabinet

  • by his predecessor for an odd tweet, essentially

  • mocking people.

  • She denies it, but essentially mocking someone

  • for having England flags from their house.

  • I think her problem, fundamentally,

  • is that she's appealing for much of the same territory

  • that Keir Starmer was appealing for.

  • Well, she's another North London lawyer,

  • apart from everything else.

  • That's also true.

  • There's a lot of lawyers in this.

  • Those are all lawyers.

  • The more mainstream, loyal-to-Corbyn group

  • who are absolutely not Corbynites were pro-Remain,

  • did oppose the leader on some of his more extreme positions.

  • But she's essentially been blown out of the water

  • by Keir Starmer.

  • So far.

  • So far.

  • That's right.

  • It's true.

  • I think everything we say, we've got until April.

  • Look what happened in 2015, when Jeremy Corbyn was elected.

  • That's absolutely true.

  • He came from nowhere.

  • But it is quite hard to see the space that she carves out

  • for herself in this campaign, because Keir Starmer

  • has made a lot more of the running

  • in the centrist, safe candidate position.

  • And if you want a real anti-Corbynite,

  • you've got Jess Phillips.

  • Lisa Nandy is, as you say, I think, a very interesting

  • candidate who, had she not walked out of Jeremy Corbyn's

  • shadow cabinet, would probably have been

  • a very, very strong contender.

  • Speaks to a different demographic.

  • Doesn't speak to all the criticisms of London lovies.

  • So I think, like you, that she is

  • going to be a more significant figure in this campaign.

  • I think Emily Thornberry's got a lot of problems.

  • She's been beaten to the punch by Keir Starmer,

  • and I don't know that she'll recover.

  • The other thing is, though, you described Keir Starmer

  • as leading the anti-Brexit charge for Labour.

  • He did, but he was the Brexit spokesman during a period

  • in which the Labour party didn't take a clear position

  • on Brexit.

  • For example, if you were also a passionate Remainer,

  • for example, you might say, well, actually,

  • Jess Phillips is my person, because she's

  • the most uncompromising Remainer.

  • In fact, since declaring her candidacy,

  • she's gone as far as to hint that the Labour party position

  • might be rejoined.

  • She rowed back on that very quickly.

  • She had to row back.

  • But that's obviously where her heart lies, right?

  • Whereas Keir Starmer, in his very loyal way,

  • has been treading a fine line between the Corbyn leadership

  • and the remaining membership for his whole time

  • in the shadow cabinet.

  • I think when you were judging and criticising any

  • of the people, you have to allow...

  • Analysing.

  • Analysing.

  • You have to allow for a certain fact.

  • Number one is, they're going to be members of the Labour party,

  • so they're all going to be people who wanted the Labour

  • party to win the last election.

  • Even though it was led by Jeremy Corbyn,

  • all these people campaigned to make Jeremy Corbyn

  • prime minister in one way or another.

  • People who are most hostile to Jeremy Corbyn, especially

  • of the three who stayed in his shadow cabinet.

  • Well, they're ruined by this.

  • They were part of the problem.

  • They didn't stand up and fight.

  • I think at some point, you've got to say, look,

  • there are people in the Labour party who decided that it was

  • better to just stay in the tent and wait for their moment

  • to pull the party backwards.

  • And I think you have to give them that much in this contest.

  • And that comes to the Brexit point you were making.

  • I think Keir Starmer's view was: I

  • need to be in the room fighting the argument, pulling

  • the party towards what I, Keir Starmer,

  • consider to be a sensible Brexit policy.

  • Nudge, nudge, nudge.

  • Yeah.

  • His position was, we ought to back a second referendum.

  • That was the party's position in the election.

  • So for good or ill, he did win that battle.

  • Something else that obviously created a huge problem

  • for the Labour party, morally as well as in the election,

  • was the anti-Semitism crisis.

  • Keir Starmer has been very forthright in saying

  • that he signs up to all of the demands of the Board

  • of Deputies of British Jews.

  • All of them have now said this.

  • But it was very interesting the way

  • it happened, though, wasn't it?

  • Because it became impossible for them not to sign up.

  • So that's a break with the past for the whole slate.

  • Yes.

  • And we thought it was remarkable.

  • She wrote a piece for the Jewish Chronicle in which said

  • the Labour party needs to get down on its knees and beg

  • forgiveness, which seemed excessive, to me,

  • as a campaigning position.

  • There will be florid language in the next four months,

  • I can tell you.

  • All of them understand what a major problem this was.

  • The only one, I think, who's got problems on the anti-Semitism

  • issue is Rebecca Long-Bailey.

  • Not because I think she has any particularly bad form on this,

  • but because she was so unquestioningly

  • supportive of Jeremy Corbyn all the way through this.

  • Didn't really push back against it in any way

  • that we're aware of and therefore

  • is seen as a genuine backer of him during these problems.

  • We know that Keir Starmer, we know that Emily Thornberry,

  • even in shadow cabinet, did raise concerns and push back

  • on these issues.

  • This is interesting, isn't it?

  • Because our fellow journalists have been having a really fun

  • time, asking each of them, in turn, how many marks,

  • out of 10, would you give Jeremy Corbyn for his leadership,

  • having lost the fourth general election in a row

  • for the Labour party?

  • Rebecca Long-Bailey said 10 out of 10,

  • which is going to hang over her, arguably,

  • for the whole leadership contest.

  • Emily Thornberry did a wonderful three-part answer.

  • I think she did two out of 10 for anti-Semitism, eight out

  • of 10 for firing up the membership, and 0 out of 10

  • for winning elections, which is hard to argue, really.

  • I think these were pretty low, weren't they?

  • I can't remember.

  • I think Jess Phillips was quite tough.

  • Interestingly, of course, Keir Starmer,

  • when asked this awkward question about the dear, sainted Jeremy,

  • refused to answer.

  • That, of course, is the right way

  • to proceed if you want to be leader

  • of the opposition and, indeed, prime minister one day.

  • You have to know when to put people like us in our place

  • and not answer an embarrassing question.

  • So that was probably quite a good sign of his capacity

  • to handle himself.

  • Do you think...?

  • It's a strange thing, isn't it?

  • Because it wasn't a difficult question to dodge.

  • The "I'm not playing scores" was the obvious answer, as you say.

  • Jeremy is a colleague and a friend.

  • I would expect...

  • I wouldn't possibly.

  • ...anybody who thinks they could be prime minister to be good

  • enough to swerve that question.

  • And I think Rebecca Long-Bailey's error was not

  • just saying 10 out of 10.

  • It was walking into the trap in the first place.

  • It showed her naivety at two levels.

  • Yeah, a bit callow.

  • That's what it was... no good.

  • After she made the mistake, everyone else

  • had time to think about what they would say in response.

  • Emily Thornberry's trick was to answer in such a complex way

  • that people have forgotten what she said.

  • I'm just going to mention it because I like it.

  • Emily Thornberry started to talk about herself

  • as a tough old bird, because apparently that's

  • what Len McCluskey called her.

  • And she's taken that as a excellent,

  • useful piece of personal branding,

  • a bit like Theresa May adopted 'bloody difficult woman'.

  • Because she's going to need something

  • to break through against these two, who are quite

  • ideasy and very outspoken.

  • There is an interesting question here, which is that,

  • right up to this leadership contest,

  • almost everybody in the Labour party was saying,

  • we really need a woman leader.

  • We're the only major political party that's

  • ever been led by a woman.

  • It is notable.

  • Let's face it.

  • Yeah.

  • And so that is an issue for Keir Starmer.

  • There are plenty of people in the Labour party who will agree

  • with that.

  • So I think, in a way, what Emily Thornberry was reminding

  • people is, actually, if it's him or me,

  • and you want a woman leader, it's me.

  • The problem is that, I think, it terms of outspoken and tough,

  • there may be others...

  • There may well be others

  • ...with a claim on that.

  • The next stage is that they then have to go and secure 5 per

  • cent of all the constituency Labour parties to back them.

  • Or three affiliate organisations,

  • including two trade unions.

  • So that's where we are on that.

  • Now, I think this is also very interesting.

  • Keir Starmer has already secured Unison,

  • which is a huge trade union.

  • And as we've said, the Unite union of Len McCluskey,

  • which is very left, in terms of its politics,

  • has yet to declare.

  • There are rumours that maybe Lisa Nandy can persuade one

  • of the other really big unions, like the GMB, to back her,

  • because she's got such a clear policy platform.

  • In terms of who's backing them, Jess Phillips

  • is seen as the choice of the Blair right wing.

  • What I wonder is, as it goes forward,

  • does that really start to hurt Jess Phillips, being identified

  • in that way?

  • Because the others are all being asked to place themselves on, I

  • suppose, what's the... should we do a left-right thing?

  • Yeah, and that gets quite tricky, actually.

  • I must admit, I would not have thought of Jess Phillips

  • as being rightwing.

  • But what she's become is anti-Corbynite.

  • If you define rightwing as anti-Corbynite, she's there.

  • Once upon a time, you might have gone something like that?

  • I don't know.

  • Yeah, it's interesting.

  • When she arrived, you wouldn't have thought of her

  • as a Blairite.

  • She's very motivated by... her background is domestic

  • violence, charities, anti-poverty in urban

  • Birmingham, all the rest of it.

  • But she has made her priority the idea that Labour has

  • to gain power to help any of these people,

  • which in a weird way...

  • So of that act of Blairism...

  • ...even daring to say, we should win.

  • ...she's absolutely out there.

  • We should try and win.

  • She's out there.

  • And I think that's absolutely right.

  • I have to say, I don't think all five of these people

  • will make it to the ballot.

  • Rebecca Long-Bailey will make it.

  • I'm sure Keir Starmer will make it.

  • Like you, I think Lisa Nandy will make it.

  • Not sure about these two.

  • I think she's going to have to get the constituencies,

  • and are there enough of them at the moment?

  • I don't know.

  • This is really interesting.

  • After they get through this, then that stage,

  • then it goes to a ballot of the full Labour party membership.

  • And what's been very interesting about...

  • the only polling that's been done so far was very

  • intelligently done.

  • It was done by the Queen Mary politics department professor

  • Tim Bale.

  • And they didn't prompt with names,

  • so it's really useful, because it's not just popularity.

  • It's also name recognition and how well known they are.

  • And what was interesting is that Jess Phillips's name came up

  • a lot without prompting.

  • On that measure, Lisa Nandy did really, really badly

  • and has very low name recognition.

  • But of course, Jeremy Corbyn was not mentioned spontaneously

  • by members back in 2015.

  • And we don't know he's still the top.

  • Don't know he's still the top.

  • All political surveys, of course, don't know wins.

  • What that really tells you is that the membership is

  • open to hearing from these people.

  • And I think it has relatively few preconceived views

  • on any of them apart, perhaps, from Jess Phillips.

  • And she could still surprise them on the upside

  • by her passion and her charisma.

  • And her charisma, yeah.

  • But of course, Keir Starmer was out in front again.

  • Yes.

  • Any of these candidates... if they make it through

  • to the ballot, they've got an audience that wants to hear

  • from them, and he's persuadable.

  • And I think this is where the other problem for Rebecca

  • Long-Bailey comes in.

  • She'll have the left, which is in control of the party,

  • on her side.

  • But when it comes to the party leadership,

  • you have to have the charisma and the wow factor that

  • pulls you over the line, because it's not

  • like some of those internal elections

  • that Momentum can organise, where

  • they're running slates from people you've never heard of.

  • This time, the members will have their own views

  • of these candidates.

  • I'm glad you mentioned Momentum, because of course,

  • apart from the unions, Momentum is not an official affiliate

  • organisation of the Labour party.

  • It's separate.

  • But it's announced that it's going

  • to ballot its members on who it should back.

  • And that could be quite interesting,

  • because of course...

  • It's quite an Albanian ballot, as I recall.

  • Well, we shall see.

  • It's a consultation of a sort.

  • And you might expect...

  • Do you agree with this decision to back Rebecca Long-Bailey?

  • Well, no, but Momentum itself will split, right?

  • I know.

  • Because John Landsman, who's the founder of Momentum,

  • he's actually in charge of Rebecca Long-Bailey's

  • official campaign.

  • But Laura Parker, who's the other very senior person

  • in Momentum, was backing Clive Lewis

  • and is very disappointed to drop out.

  • So I think that it'll be really interesting to see whether

  • Momentum, in a way, tack left, as many expect them

  • to, or whether they might - quite a significant number

  • of them - break, for example, for Jess Phillips,

  • who's well known, seen as a fighter, good on telly,

  • arguing the Labour case.

  • I think one of the key issues that is really interesting so

  • far, and I wouldn't expect it to be any other way just yet,

  • is that very few of these candidates

  • have actually articulated where they are in a policy position.

  • Quite a lot of them are just saying...

  • very few.

  • Didn't say none.

  • Keir Starmer.

  • I think Emily Thornsberry, Rebecca Long-Bailey.

  • What we don't want to do is throw the Corbynite baby out

  • with the bathwater.

  • There were problems, but I'm not looking

  • to oversteer - I think oversteer is the word - the other way.

  • You've got Jess Phillips, who said, no, no.

  • It's been a catastrophe.

  • We need to sort it out.

  • And as you say, Lisa Nandy, who's a bit more

  • interesting about this.

  • Quite a lot of them are dodging what exactly you keep, and Keir

  • Starmer did a television interview,

  • and he was asked about all the nationalisations.

  • And the only one he actually specified was rail.

  • I think there's an issue where people are projecting,

  • particularly, on Keir Starmer.

  • He's tried to position himself as much more leftwing

  • than people assume he is.

  • Very much so.

  • : On the other hand, he's been cautious about which policies

  • he'd keep.

  • And I think there's an element - and this is where he has risks,

  • I think - of, if you keep this canvas too blank,

  • eventually people will start to paint the wrong things on it,

  • as far as you're concerned.

  • Well, absolutely.

  • They might start to ask, well, where is that you do stand?

  • All of those conversations that I've

  • heard, and the interviews so far, when they all say,

  • let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater,

  • and most of them do, you do wonder, well,

  • which bit of the baby or the bathwater

  • do you think the electorate liked?

  • Because it seems like the electorate pretty much threw

  • the baby out with the bathwater, in terms of Labour's offer.

  • The line that many of them are peddling

  • is, the public liked our policies.

  • They didn't like us.

  • And that's roughly true, but you can't

  • separate those two things.

  • What that doesn't allow for is the salience

  • of any individual policy.

  • If you say to the public, do you like the idea

  • that energy companies should be renationalised,

  • you might get a positive result. But if you

  • say, how important in all the things that matter to you

  • is this, it might well be quite a long way down.

  • So it's often a mistake people confuse salience with support.

  • I just want to look up here at these people who want to be

  • deputy leader of the party, because they're in this

  • parallel process - Jeremy, I'm going to put you up there

  • for now - because a lot of people have been interested

  • that Angela Rayner, shadow education secretary,

  • is not down here with this lot, because she's got a lot

  • of potential, and she...

  • talk about way out ahead.

  • She got 88 nominations from the parliamentary party

  • for her deputy leadership bid, and she probably

  • would have got a decent number to get her through.

  • Absolutely.

  • So do we assume she's hanging fast,

  • and she's going to become the leader after one of these?

  • She's a flatmate of Rebecca Long-Bailey's, and they

  • did agree that they would not fight each other.

  • Many people think the wrong candidate went forward.

  • She doesn't have the Corbynite cred.

  • But the meanest thing that anyone said about Rebecca

  • Long-Bailey - she is not the best candidate,

  • even in her own flat, which really is going, isn't it?

  • Angela Rayner's got an awful lot going for her.

  • It would be quite a surprise if she

  • loses the deputy leadership.

  • And if she were to win, and does it well,

  • but they don't win the election.

  • The deputy leader is not a very important job.

  • But she would be well-placed.

  • If she were deputy, she would get a big job

  • in the shadow cabinet.

  • So I think she's an interesting figure,

  • and she has cut-through, and you could certainly see her...

  • She's quite left, right?

  • Well, she backed Andy Burnham, originally,

  • in the leadership conversation, when Jeremy Corbyn won.

  • So she's leftish.

  • Leftish.

  • She's left enough.

  • She's left enough for the membership, I would say.

  • Richard Burgon, who we've got here...

  • Is the proper Corbynite candidate.

  • He's the proper Corbynite candidate,

  • and he didn't do very well at all.

  • He just squeaked in with 22.

  • So he's through to this next stage.

  • But you see, the Corbynite ticket

  • is Rebecca Long-Bailey and Richard Burgon,

  • but he's not doing so well.

  • Something to inspire.

  • Yeah, that's right.

  • I think it's going to take quite a big series of setbacks here.

  • We've got...

  • Dawn Butler.

  • Dawn Butler.

  • Dawn Butler, who actually did not do too badly at all,

  • in terms of nomination.

  • She got 29.

  • She's actually, probably to the left of Angela Rayner,

  • do you think?

  • Yes.

  • She's a very loyal Corbynite.

  • She is, yes.

  • Well, Corbyn's frontbencher.

  • Rosena Allin-Khan, MP for Tooting, an NHS doctor,

  • didn't do too badly, either.

  • She got 23, so she's just through.

  • She was the one who did that Love Actually video

  • before Boris Johnson did it.

  • It's like, don't vote for him.

  • Vote for her.

  • I think she's got a lot of smarts

  • and deserves to be up at the front of the party somewhere.

  • Well, some of this is to do with placing a marker down,

  • isn't it?

  • If you're an individual, you want

  • to put yourself forward so you're in the shadow cabinet.

  • And this guy's interesting.

  • And Labour's leader in Scotland, Ian Murray.

  • Oh, he's nameless.

  • How appalling.

  • I'm so sorry, Mr Murray.

  • If you're watching, I do apologise.

  • The thing that's interesting about him.

  • 34, you see.

  • That's pretty decent.

  • That is pretty decent.

  • He has the unanimous support of all the party's Scottish MPs.

  • : Because he is the...

  • Only one.

  • ...only remaining Labour MP in Scotland,

  • which is extraordinary.

  • If we were having this conversation five years ago,

  • you wouldn't think that was possible.

  • He's the only Labour MP in the village.

  • But that makes it impossible to ignore his voice,

  • because if you don't listen to the one person who's carried

  • on making it work in his Edinburgh seat,

  • when all around you, Labour has crashed to defeat...

  • now, he's had to go around denying that he's a Blairite...

  • Yes.

  • ...because he's been, again, such an outspoken critic

  • of the Corbyn style of leadership and the left-wing

  • policies.

  • But I'm putting him here on the right hand.

  • But anyway, he's had to disavow the idea of Blairism.

  • I think there are two ways to view this appendage Blairite.

  • There is the way that says neoliberal, very pro-market,

  • the policies of New Labour and Tony Blair.

  • And nobody who pushes those is going to win this leadership

  • election.

  • That's just not where the Labour party is.

  • It's not where the economic argument is.

  • It's not where Boris Johnson is.

  • But there is another meaning of Blairite, I think,

  • which is, do what you have to do to win,

  • because the truth is, however pure you are,

  • it's no use to anybody if you've lost.

  • Well, that's the platform so far.

  • That's where Jess Phillips and others,

  • I think, and I think Angela Rayner is a little bit

  • in that camp as well.

  • I think that's going to be the dividing line, eventually,

  • in this contest, as it shapes up.

  • These people, they're going to be doing hustings

  • all over the country.

  • They're going to be on the same platform

  • in umpteen different places all through the week, saying

  • the same thing.

  • Their speech is never going to change.

  • But eventually, to break through, one of them

  • is going to have to say something interesting, which

  • actually is what Jeremy Corbyn did.

  • One of them's actually going to have to say...

  • Don't set them up to fail, Robert.

  • We've got four months.

  • ...something meaningful and decisive that says,

  • this is the direction the party needs to go into.

  • And I think that must be an exhaustion within Labour party

  • members.

  • They've lost four elections in a row.

  • What do we need to do to win without selling our souls?

  • And I think that's where victory will...

  • and the other thing they need is somebody who can actually cut

  • through, because it's very difficult being leader

  • of the opposition in a parliament where you have

  • nothing close to a chance of defeating the government.

  • They're not going to be making the news by threatening

  • a defeat for the government.

  • They've got to find other ways of damaging the government

  • and being listened to, and I think

  • they're going to find that it's going to come as a shock.

  • Labour hasn't been irrelevant in parliament since 1987

  • or something, so they're going to find it quite hard to make

  • themselves heard, and they're going to need people who can

  • cut through.

  • And that's where, I think, Keir Starmer's biggest weakness is.

  • For all the professionalism and competence

  • - and there's lots of good reasons to support him

  • - he's not the most exciting candidate.

  • I will conclude by saying that when Tim Bale and his crew

  • did similar polling in 2015, as they've

  • done with this lot in the last few days,

  • Jeremy Corbyn had less name recognition and less

  • level of support than even people who are currently

  • running for deputy but not for leader.

  • So it really is all to play for four months of hustings.

  • So I guess, by the end of it, we're

  • saying that it could actually be any of them,

  • because although Keir Starmer is way, way out in front,

  • it's a long process, and it's potentially

  • quite an unpredictable process.

  • We don't yet know, about lovely Len and where his support is

  • going to go, although clearly, he would probably...

  • I think we do.

  • ...want them.

  • I think we do.

  • We don't speak for Rebecca Long-Bailey.

  • But will that alienate the membership?

  • They've seen him back Jeremy Corbyn into a disastrous corner

  • on policy and positioning.

  • I think the arguments: most of all, it's Jeremy Corbyn.

  • Probably the most charismatic.

  • Most, obviously, exuding managerial professionalism.

  • And most ideasy.

  • Dark horse, ideasy candidate.

  • And I don't think Emily Thornberry's going

  • to make it, so something else.

  • Yeah, something else.

  • Something else.

  • Let's do this again in a few weeks.

Robert's terribly good until his batteries go down.

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誰會贏得工黨領袖競選?| 通往Brexit之路(第1集9)----------。 (Who will win the Labour leadership race? | The Road to Brexit (s1 ep 9))

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    林宜悉 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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