字幕列表 影片播放 列印英文字幕 ANNOUNCER: The following is a presentation of the ILR School at Cornell University. ILR, advancing the world of work. LOUIS HYMAN: Income inequality is one of the most pressing questions of our age. And yet the institutions we have to fight that inequality are failing all around us. So says Andy Stern, author of Raising the Floor and former president of the SEIU. Having spent a lifetime in the union movement, he came to believe that in fact unions could not provide the middle-class life that they had in the postwar and that we needed to move in the direction of a new policy-- the idea of the basic income. Tonight, Andy will be talking with Steven Berkenfeld, chairman of the Sierra Club and a managing director of Barclays, about what kinds of opportunities there are to reconfigure the rules of the game to create a new kind of welfare state for the 21st century that supports entrepreneurs as much as anyone else. This is the first in a series of talks here at the Institute for Workplace Studies in New York City, where we are researching the future of work, understanding how new technologies and new business models are transforming the economy around us today. And now, Andy Stern and Steven Berkenfeld. ANDY STERN: --the private sector, when I was born, to 1 in 16 today, I could not watch American workers keep working harder and harder and not get a raise. And my job as the leader of the nation's largest union was to do something about it. And it just didn't seem like working harder was actually going to solve the problem. And so I left to try to figure out, you know, what does someone like me who's committed his life to changing other people's life do when everything you knew and everything you tried was becoming more marginal, in terms of its impact? And I began this journey. And I spoke to lots of different people. My most interesting discussion, other than Steven, that really got me thinking-- because my original purpose of talking to everybody was that only in Columbia University-- maybe Cornell, they can say this, too-- but all the professorships in the business school that are endowed, and they had a vacancy, and they wanted to know how to fill it. And the idea was, there must be something around labor-market policy that we could do that no other university was doing. And they sent me out on this journey. And I started by visiting a guy named Andy Grove. Many of you know Andy Grove was the founder of Intel, the creator of the chip. And I met him, interestingly enough, in this office that probably looked like it had a single real-estate agent or accountant. You know, I expect to see Andy Grove surrounded by all his little minions, in a beautiful office, in an executive suite in Intel. And here he was in his little office. And the name in the office was SARUS-- S-A-R-U-S. And my first question was, you know, Mr. Grove, what is SARUS, thinking it must be some huge think tank or new secret project. And he said, oh-- Strategic Advisors R Us. So I had to give myself a name, so I called it SARUS. And we spent the time talking about his view of the future. And he wrote this book called Only the Paranoid Survive. And it basically was, what do you do when you hit what he called a "strategic inflection point"? And he wrote about a strategic inflexion point. It's basically a turning point, a dramatic turning point, for whether a company or a country. He talked about how they appear slowly. They only sometimes are viewed clearly in retrospect, and denial is the first reaction. And I would argue that's where we are in America about the future of work, which I'll talk about in a second. And Andy Grove talked about how, when he was the founder of Intel, he was with Gordon Moore. The two of them were really the people that built the company. And they were sitting around, because all of a sudden the business they had built was not working, because the Japanese were developing a very different kind of chip. And they didn't have the courage-- they thought they didn't have the courage-- to really go back to the board of directors and say, we really are not in the right business. We really have to change things. And so they were sitting around. And Gordon says to Andy, well, what do you think the-- they're going to fire us. I mean, they should fire us. We're about to lose money. We don't have a new product. What are new guys going to do? They said, they're going to scrap everything we're doing, and they're going to put all their money into the new chip that they knew had a huge potential. And Andy Grove said, well, why don't we just do that? And they did, and they rebuilt the country, and he wrote a book, Only the Paranoid Survive. And, somewhat, that should be the wish of America, that maybe we could be a little more paranoid. We might do a little better surviving. But, along the way, I learned a lot of things about today's job market, which is where I want to start. So, if you ask most Americans economically what they think about the economy and what they would name the country, the USA, they would say it's the United States of Anxiety. Because people are extraordinarily anxious and scared about the future. Our election, I think, has indications that reinforce that. But 21% of Americans-- only 21%, at a time when the unemployment rate is close to lower than 5%, lower than 4%, where the stock market is up-- only 21% of Americans say the economy is either excellent or very good. 47% of Americans, think about this, don't have $400 in case of an emergency. So that's, one out of two people in America don't have $400. If they have an insurance bill, they get hurt, their heater breaks down, they don't have the money to fix their own house. We now know that 50%, 7%, of Americans don't think the American dream, which is, their children will do better than they do. So you can understand why people are anxious. 23% of low-skilled men in this country have been unemployed for 12 months. We have the lowest labor-force participation in American history. There are more men on disability than working in manufacturing, today. And Larry Summers will tell you that, one generation from now, one quarter of all men 25 to 54 will be unemployed at any one time. So, if you have no hope for the future, if you haven't gotten a raise for 20 years, if all of a sudden you're seeing a world around you completely change, it's no wonder that people are anxious. And the way that it sort of plays out economically-- for the economists, like the dean, in the room, we've got to throw in some facts, here-- is, if you look at the 20th-century economy, the market economy, people talked about four things and used one word. They talked about productivity increase, wage increase, job increase, and they called it "growth." So when a politician said "The economy is growing," what they really meant is the economy is being more productive, the economy is creating jobs, and the economy is creating wages. And it was great, because all politicians had to say was, let's just grow the economy and life will be good. And it was. And then, all of a sudden, things changed. And you can see the blue and that light silver line are GDP growth and productivity growth. So they-- I don't think I have a laser pointer, here. But the two top lines, they keep growing. But all of a sudden, wages-- which we now know, after 20 years, only looking back because of denial, that American workers haven't gotten a raise, now, for 20 years-- we admit to that fact very late but acknowledge that it's true. We won't admit yet to the fact that job growth has fallen off the growth and productivity train. So now in America you can have economic growth, GDP growth, you can have productivity growth, and no job growth or no wage growth. That is the 21st-century economy. Every single new job created since 2007 has been in what we would call "alternative employment." The 40 hour a week employer-managed job of myself, my father, my grandfather, the people in our union, is not way the future of work is going. And here's the other sad fact of what's happened since 2009. So the red lines, the middle line is middle-class jobs, midwage occupations. And on the left-hand side of the chart are the jobs we lost when the crash occurred. So we lost a lot of jobs in the recession, in the middle class, a certain amount in the lower, and a certain amount in the higher. But look what happens after the recovery occurred. The economy stops really producing or replacing the middle-class jobs it was losing and now begins to start the process of replacing middle- and high-wage jobs with low-wage jobs. That trend has now continued. 80% of all the new jobs created are low-wage jobs, in America. Middle class is being hollowed out. Lots of people are now writing about it. Another kind of fact that we want to believe is just a moment in history. But, as those charts before said, it's true. The second thing we now know-- and you're going to speak about it next week, and I won't talk about it too much, because Sarah and the Upwork people know a lot more than I do. But the point is, the jobs that are being created are in alternative employment, contingent, part-time-gig economy, staffing companies, et cetera. Average worker's tenure in job is 4.4 years. My son's going to have 9 to 12 jobs, like most kids his age, by the time he's 35. I had one by the time I was 35. I had one, basically, by the time I retired. And now we see 10 to 42 percent of million people work outside the traditional 9-to-5 model. 30% of the people in the workforce work in some kind of freelance, independent contractor. And Carl Camden, the CEO of Kelly, says it'll go to 50%. So that's a really a different economy than my father, my grandfather, and my economy. And that's the economy of our kids and our grandkids. So, when we begin to think about the future, we have to take into account, what is the current event and not have a mythology that we're still living in the 1950s and 1960s, when a rising tide of economic growth raised all boats, as opposed to now where it's only raising the luxury liner and the rest of the boats are either sinking or in pretty rocky waters, as far as that's concerned. So that would be an interesting observation about where we are today. And lots of people have different ideas of what we want to do. We heard the debate last night. People have their own ideas. Here's the thing that kind of drove me into my thought process-- generated a lot by Steven's conversation, which you can read about in my book. So now there is reputable research-- reputable research, by the same people that advise companies and countries. So let's start with McKinsey. Let's start with the McKinsey Global Institute, one of the most reputable research institutions in the world, who says that 45% of all tasks done by workers today can be computerized, right now, 13% more with artificial intelligence. Oxford University. 47%-- [VIDEO PLAYBACK] - So, according to-- [END PLAYBACK] ANDY STERN: Whoops. I've got to get past there. Oxford, 40% of jobs, not tasks-- 47% of jobs are at risk. Pew asked 1,900 experts, not a small sample, and the reaction they got was-- the question was, will networked, automated artificial intelligence-- to place more jobs than they've created by 2025? Half of them envision that future, where robots have displaced significant numbers of people and software. But, interestingly enough, many expressed concern that not only is it going to lead to vast increases in economic inequality, but masses of people who are effectively unemployable pliable and breakdowns in the social order. Now, that's something like a revolutionary thing a union leader would say, not the Pew Research Center would be saying. Deloitte says 25% of all jobs in Europe will be lost. And the numbers go on and on. I talk to you about what Larry Summers said. The hardest thing, he said, in the 21st century, going forward, is not creating growth but producing jobs in the economy. And so, all of a sudden, we have this reputable research, by people who companies rely upon every day about the future. We have people like Steven Berkenfeld, who every day or every week gets pitched new ideas, with one key component of the new idea-- how do we have less people-- how do we invest more capital to have less people work for us? The goal of capitalism now is economic growth without job growth. And technology, software first, which allowed for globalization to exist-- because all that just-in-time logistics and sending jobs from Upwork overseas is all a result of software. All the automated warehouses you see, they're not yet robotics, but a lot of software. Just-in-time inventory is just a lot of software. And Steven talks about, interestingly, about how Y2K-- and if you all remember the big hubbub around Y2K, everybody had consultants, and they were backing up their computers, because everything was going to crash. Up until that time, companies were keeping really two sets of books-- the computer books, and the paper books. And when nothing crashed, we began a massive conversion to software. Because, all of a sudden, people didn't believe we needed the backup system, because the system had passed its test and was now reliable. And technology then began to increase. So we have a different economy, in terms of how growth results in affecting people. We have a different way that people are working, and will continue to work. And now we have all this reputable research that says the future is far more troubling. So think about the economy today. The largest media company in the world is Facebook. It doesn't produce any content. The largest hospitality company in the world is Airbnb. It has no rooms. The largest transportation company in the world is Uber. It doesn't own a car. The largest retailers in the world are Amazon and Alibaba-- own no inventory. That's today's economy-- that more people are watching this speech sitting at home than being here, it's just all part of an evolution that's going on. And where it ends, no one really quite knows, but there's lots of interesting predictions. But we begin to see all the little telltale signs and think, it's a lot faster than we ever anticipated. So, first of all, we had Watson. If you remember, he beat the chess champion, and then he beat the Jeopardy champion. And that was-- people would say, tell me-- oh, that's easy, because it's called "pattern matching." You feed all this data into a computer, the computer does all this pattern matching. And then we got to go, which is, Lee Sedol is the Go champion of the world. There are more Go moves than there are atoms in the universe. There is no book on how to teach people how to play anything other than the basic Go, because it's so complicated, because there's so many variations. And no one predicted that, until 2029, would anybody be able to beat the Go champion. Watson beat the Go champion. He beat him last year. The Turing test, which was a test that was set up to see, could a machine trick a person-- named after Alan Turing, if you saw the movie-- that wasn't supposed to be passed till 2025. Last year, a machine pretending they were a 14-year-old kid tricked the judges and won the Turing prize. If Watson, what they were doing in Go, didn't interest you, you should know that Watson is up at Memorial Sloan Kettering, one of the best cancer hospitals in the world. It is competing against the lung-cancer diagnosticians to see who can be more accurate in diagnosing lung cancer. Watson is creaming the doctors. Because you have to download, you have to read 3,000 medical articles a week to keep up with everything that's being published. Watson reads all 3,000. How many of your doctors read 300, or 30, or 10? Robotic surgery, robotic anesthesiology. All these things are in deployment somewhere else. But what is getting people's attention right now, besides Chipotle doing drone delivery at Virginia Tech-- if you happen to be at a different school, you've got to get your Cornell Tech people to begin to do drone delivery, to test how we can deliver food to the students. But that's what they're doing in Virginia Tech. Chipotle's being delivered by drones. I think, though, that Uber's deployment of driverless cars in Pittsburgh kind of caught people like, this isn't 20 years from now, you know, this is something gonna happen soon. And now the Department of Transportation has actually issued regulations about what the safety requirements are for driverless vehicles. And the last thing I'll say about how fast technology's coming and what its implications are on jobs-- the largest job in 29 states, and the second- or third-largest in the others, is driving a truck. There's 3 and 1/2 million truck drivers in America. There's 6.5 million people that work in rest stops, parts, insurance, supporting truck drivers. Large-- it's not like steel or auto, where there were parts of the country. This is the largest job in 29 states. I was with someone who runs a private equity company that owns lots of things that need to be moved by trucks, who was yelling at me, saying, your union members-- not mine, but-- union members are telling me they want to fix their pension. Don't they know, in five years I'm going to have a driverless vehicle take things from the distribution center and bring it to the stores? They should be worried about their jobs. They shouldn't be worried simply about their pensions. And then you read-- and watch, if you'd like to, online-- one truck carry-- not "carry"-- lead four other trucks-- the other four are driverless. One truck has a driver, so there's five trucks, one driver, went from one side of Europe to the other. Convoy is a company created by Jeff Bezos and the founders of Amazon to do for trucking what Uber did for cars, with the same intention, which is to make the trucks driverless and be the distribution system that can tell you, pick up something here, drop it there, you have another load. So they've created a lot of big-time investors, and successful entrepreneurs have created Convoy. Uber bought Otto. Otto allows a truck driver to retrofit their truck to make them initially not completely driverless but eventually completely driverless. So all those truck drivers will have an asset, but they won't have a job. The job will be renting out their asset, until enough fleets of other trucks are built, driverless from the beginning. But this is Uber's play to be the conversion entrepreneur, as opposed to be the ultimate, you know, Mack-truck creator in the world. At all this is happening at warp speed. So here's what I say. What should we do? So the one thing I refuse to do-- but I will do it, if anybody wants to-- is have the debate about, is this time different? Because I don't know. And anybody who does know, please tell me what stocks are going to go up in the future, tell me where to make investments, what baseball team is going to win. Because no one knows. And the truth is, up to now every time we've had economic revolutions and disruptions more jobs-- or the same number of jobs, at a minimum-- have come back. So the past is a terrific guide for the future, except it's not working for the economy, it's not working for the way that work works, but why are we going to count on it when it comes to the past being a good predictor of the future? And even more importantly, anyone who runs a business, or anybody who is involved with the military, knows you do scenario planning. You don't have to know everything that's going to happen, but you need to be prepared for anything that's going to happen. So, if someone told us that, for the first time in history, a storm as powerful as Sandy is going to come and wipe out not just parts of lower Manhattan, it's going to flood the entire city, now, we could do one of two things. We could have a big debate and say, you know, those forecasters, they didn't get it right last time, so they're not going to get it right this time. Or, you know, it's never happened before in Manhattan. Or you could get the hell out of town, or build sandbags, or at least go to the store and buy supplies in case it happens to be true. The last thing you would do is disregard reputable, scientific evidence by people we rely upon all the time. And that's the situation we're in. There are all these people telling us, there is a chance, there is a reasonable chance, that this scenario could be true. And we have no plans, as a country, to determine what it's going to do. Now, middle-class people are living a plan, because they have what's, I say, "parental basic income." If you're like me, and you have a kid who didn't quite get out of the house, or-- first of all, there's more kids living at home who graduated college than at any time in history. For those of us who believe in the American dream, that is the American nightmare, for parents. So, that is the truth. But a lot of parents like me help my kid. I take them on vacation. If he has a bill, I help pay for it. I'm providing stabilizing economic floor for him, to know he can take some risk or do some things or go back to school or whatever it is, because he has a basic income called "his father." The dirty little secret of Silicon Valley is, most of the entrepreneurs in all those garages are not the sons of my janitors or kids who were sons and daughters of child-care workers. Not that they aren't just smart. [INAUDIBLE] those kids can spend two years in a garage, with no income. These are the sons and daughters of wealthy people. Because money gives you a chance to take risks, to be an entrepreneur, to do things that, otherwise, if you're trying to eat and meet the basic Maslow's need hierarchy, you can't do. So what's my idea? So I happen to believe we need a plan for America. I hope we never use the plan. I hope we put it on a shelf. I hope all the jobs come back. I hope that everybody laughs at me and calls me an idiot and, you know, I was crying wolf and tells me, you know, this is why they never let you into academia, because you don't know what you're talking about. [LAUGHTER] So I hope that's true. But if it's not true, I'm not having my members and your kids and your grandkids end up poor in a country with the greatest amount of wealth in the world and not having a life that they should be able to live. I'm not willing to accept that, either. So here's my idea. This is the oldest idea in American history that is going to become the newest idea of the 21st century. Because this idea is Thomas Paine's idea. It's called the "universal basic income." This was Thomas Paine's version. We won the Revolutionary War. All the land that was owned by the crown, we have it now. We threw them out; it's our land. We know we're going to turn it into private property, but this was the community's land. It was the country's land. So we are going to give everyone, this was this proposal, 15 pounds sterling, for the rest of their life, in compensation for the fact that you are an American citizen and we have all this wealth and the wealth is being turned over to private hands and you're in essence getting a dividend. The country that came closest to a universal basic income-- and that's the idea that every citizen-- and you can decide whether it's zero till they die, you can decide if it's 18 to 64, you can decide, does it replace social security or is it in addition to so-- there's lots of ways you can design the program. But the basic idea is, it's universal, meaning everyone gets it, it's basic, it's not living a life of luxury, and it's an income, without any requirements necessarily to do. The number I pick for universal basic income is a very simple number. It's $1,000 a month. Why $1,000 a month? Because the poverty level in the United States, whether you want to believe this or not, isn't $11,994 a year a person, it's poverty. If you want to get people above poverty, you have to pay them $12,000 a year. My proposal is, let's just get everybody out of poverty. Martin Luther King, in his last book, From Chaos to Community, condemns the welfare system-- that I started working in as a public employee-- hated it! He said, we didn't ask for all these categorical programs for housing and food. We asked you to end poverty. And if you want to end poverty, give people money. And in 1968, the country that came closest to passing a universal basic income was the United States of America. And it was promoted by a guy named Milton Friedman, a prominent conservative philosopher, and put forward by a man that you may think would be odd for him to do, called Richard Nixon, who was the president of United States. And Richard Nixon proposed giving every single American citizen $10,000 a year, in lieu of some of the welfare system that had been built up to that time. And it passed the House of Representatives. And it stood-- only thing standing in the way was a Democratic Senate. And the Democratic Senate didn't pass a universal basic income, or the world might be very different the way we think about how our social benefits work, because they thought they were going to beat Richard Nixon in the next election. We'd get a Democrat in office, and we'd make it $12,000! So why would we pass $10,000 and let Richard Nixon get credit? It's the same thing we did with health care, by the way, on pay or play. And so universal basic income disappeared in the United States. A bunch of left- and right-wing philosophers kept it alive in Europe. And all of a sudden, it's back. Because technology is creating a real fear. The World Economic Forum at Davos this year, the convention was called the "fourth industrial revolution." They talked about millions of jobs being destroyed, so that you can't go out to Silicon Valley and not hear them tell you how many jobs will be limited by the work that they're doing. And universal basic income, for their purposes, is just a way to solve the problem without them having to worry about anything other than making sure everybody gets paid off, so to speak. So here's the thing. Now Finland is doing an experiment on universal basic income. Switzerland had a referendum on universal basic income. Utrecht, in the Netherlands, is doing an experiment. Today, the Trade Union Congress of the UK voted in favor of universal basic income. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have adopted. And Justin Trudeau, north of the border, 's father ran a universal basic income-- Pierre Trudeau, in Manitoba, his son Justin had it in his Liberal Party platform experimentation on universal basic income. It's now in Montreal and Ontario it will be tested. And there are many people in the United States-- not "many." There are people in the United States beginning to talk about a universal basic income for children. Because, if you believe all the brain research, that zero to three is the most formative physiological development for kids' brains, and if you realize we have no programs for kids who are zero to three, particularly if you're poor, then people are starting to say, why don't we just have a universal basic income and give some parents who don't have money resources to be able to take care of their kids? And that will be probably, you know, a way that people begin to think about it. So that's my book, and that's my idea. And, as I say to people, if you don't like my idea, I'm OK with that. Like, what's your idea? If your idea is, like, let's take a chance and hope it doesn't happen-- like, we're trying that with climate. It hasn't really worked well yet. You know, maybe it will reverse itself. But I don't think we gamble with our families. I don't think we gamble with our country. I don't think we gamble with our future. I think there's a lot we can do about it. And I think universal basic income is-- like Winston Churchill said about democracy, it's a terrible idea, until you try everything else. Thanks. [APPLAUSE] STEVEN BERKENFELD: Thanks, Andy. So it's kind of remarkable that you can take hours and hours of discussions and distill it down to about 20 minutes. But let me start with, the statistics are compelling. The trends are clear to you and I and maybe some others. But what's the tipping point, where there's a general acceptance that we have a really urgent and very serious problem about both the availability and the security of jobs? Is it driverless cars? Is it autonomous vehicles? Is that the thing that people say, wow, that seems so implausible, and now it feels like it's inevitable? ANDY STERN: So I think there are two possibilities. One is probably improbability, which is the President of the United States stands up and gives a speech similar to mine, surrounded by his or her council of economic advisors, Advisers having set the idea in motion. Because I think people have a sense that something is going on. They just can't put the pieces of the puzzle together. And parents really know life is-- like, when I grew up, if your kid got a union job or your kid went to college they were fine. Now, neither-- the union job doesn't exist as much, and college is no guarantee anymore. I think the second is driverless trucks. I think it's so much faster than people understand. I mean, driverless cars are personal decisions. Driverless trucks are business decisions. And we know, when people make business decisions, there's money attached to it. And having less people, you know, means you tend to make more money. And capitalism does work well. And I think driverless trucks, and the speed of them arriving, and the dislocation it's going to cause, you know, is going to be a total disorientation. And it's this similar group of people that are very disoriented already, in terms of how angry they are that the world doesn't look the way it used to. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Yeah, it's been interesting to me, as we've had these discussions, that it's the economists, the labor economists, that say, you're a Luddite, you're afraid of technology, these jobs will come back. But when you talk to the technologists and the futurists, they say, no, we really have the ability to automate a lot. And they're much more concerned about this issue. So we need, I think, before we can have this serious discussion about UBI, to continue to push the consensus that we've got a real risk of a problem, here. So I think the question that everybody wants to ask, I'll ask for them, is how much might this cost? And how do we pay for it? ANDY STERN: So, A, just because there are really smart people in the room, there needs to be a lot more research done. OK? So, in my book I do the best I can, from everything I know, and I say it will cost $1.75 trillion, to give everybody 18 to 64 $1,000 a month. I don't have enough sophistication to figure out how much the tax system claws back. You know, there's just lots of implications. You know, I don't know how much money is put in the economy that's then gotten back in other kinds of revenue. So I don't know all those details, but I'd say $1.75 trillion is a fair number. Here's how I'd pay for it. So, conservatives and I agree on basic income. In fact, I'll be at the Cato Institute, a place started by the Koch brothers, and not my normal stomping grounds where I get drinks. I like your wine a little better. But I'll be at the Cato Institute, with Charles Murray, who wrote a book I also had some trouble with, called The Bell Curve. But we are on the same side of basic income, except for this-- he wants to eliminate every single welfare program, including Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, to pay for basic income. I say we can't touch health care, and people are invested in Social Security, so maybe another generation we can think about Social Security, but not for people that have paid in. It's somewhat like a pension plan. So I take 500-- there's one-- in case you want to know, there's 122 cash transfer programs in the United States, of one form or another. Which makes you understand why poor people are so crazy, trying to deal with the bureaucracy of surviving with a family, dealing with 122 different possibilities. So I take $500 million-- $500 billion-- now I've got to get big numbers-- $500 billion, to get up to $1.75 trillion. I think $500 billion, from that-- no more EITC; it's just another cash transfer-- food stamps, unemployment, there's a whole series of things that you can eliminate. There's $1 trillion of benefits, so it's half. I don't think that's that hard to do. Everybody who has a favorite program won't like it, but it's kind of it for the greater good. And we need to understand, $1,000 a month ends poverty. There are 50 million people in poverty right now. Right? There are 50 million people who don't have $12,000. So whatever we might do to influence some people here and there, and we got to think about that, we need to understand there's 50 million people that will immediately be better off than what they are. There's $500 million easily in what are called-- and we learned this in Simpson-Bowles-- "tax expenditures." They're the way we shelter retirement savings and IRA and second and third house or second houses and other stock options and things, that are just ways-- instead of giving people money, people don't pay money. And those are mostly wealthy people and corporations who don't. So I say there's $1.3 trillion of those, which is interesting. We have $1 million for our social safety net but $1.3 trillion in tax expenditures. Take $500 billion there. Now we're up to $1 trillion. Now we're getting closer. So, most people don't know-- this is my formula. Most people don't know this. We had a financial-transaction tax in this country for 50 years. So anytime you hear of Tobin tax in Europe or financial transactions, this not a new idea; we just got rid of it. It's worth about $200 billion. Now we're at $1.2 billion. Then you can decide where you want to go. We're the only country in the OECD who has no VAT tax. 5% VAT tax would get you a long way, almost home. We have no carbon tax. People say we can't give the carbon tax back to people. Alaska gave all the oil resources from the North Slope back to people. They didn't give it to the government. They gave it to the government as an intermediary, before the government pays a dividend to every citizen. We could do that with a carbon tax, and then we wouldn't worry about your energy prices quite as much. You know, there are people who have some issue-- STEVEN BERKENFELD: Two birds with one stone. Climate change-- [INTERPOSING VOICES] ANDY STERN: Right. And some people have issues with the military budget. We have no asset tax. Thomas Piketty talked about an asset tax. Maybe we should change the giving pledge, where wealthy people give half away their income when they die. We could turn it to the living pledge. So don't give it away when you die. We get rid of the estate tax. Give it away while you're alive, because we need the money now, not later after all the accountants and trust lawyers get in charge of things. So there's lots of-- it can be done. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but, you know, it's not a hard thing to do. It's political will, not, is the money there? STEVEN BERKENFELD: Right. So, following up on that, Social Security to me doesn't seem that challenging. It's more of a transition. Right? People have paid in, and you can get people to, through attrition, come off of it. And new people get the UBI, instead. But health care does. And even if you have $1,000 a month, how do you pay? If you have any kind of medical issue, that's going to eat up a lot of that $1,000 in that month. ANDY STERN: That's why I don't do anything with health care, because I think it's impossible for an individual to manage your health care. Because your genes and so many other factors, poverty, have a huge impact on it. But here's what I would say. It we paid the same amount of money in health care as every other major industrialized country, we could pay for UBI. We pay, what, 17% of GDP for health care. Most countries pay from 11% to 13%, at the high end. Right? That's 4% of GDP. That pretty much will pay for a universal basic income. So, to me, we just need to get employers out of the system, do what everybody else around the world does, which is, get government more involved in the system, whether it's Switzerland, which has private insurance, or the National Health Service in UK. You can have any model. The truth is, no model works unless someone bargains with providers. And individuals have no power to bargain with providers, which is why everybody uses the government to bargain with doctors, pharmaceutical companies, and everyone else but us. Because our market economy loves to pay people more money than they need. STEVEN BERKENFELD: So, to sound-bite this, if UBI can be described as social security for all, [INAUDIBLE] you'd need a Medicare for all to go with it. ANDY STERN: Yeah, you would. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Right, OK. Big discussion, this political season, is on immigration. So, how does that factor into it? It's already a big challenge. And entitlement to this, I would assume, requires US citizenship. So-- discussion of a path to citizenship, and what to do with people in this country who aren't citizens, becomes all that more-- ANDY STERN: Yeah, it does. So, I happen to believe that all the people in this country need a pathway to citizenship. I also believe that countries have a right to set their own immigration policies. But it's not up to people to set immigration policies. Countries set immigration policy. So, in my calculation, I assume the whatever many you want to guess, 11 to 13 million people, that are here are included in UBI, and no other undocumented person will ever be entitled to UBI, from this point. But I'm just making that presumption that that's going to occur, at some point. Because you don't want to create an incentive to attract people simply on the basis of money. I would say this is the bigger problem with immigration, which is a whole different discussion if you-- immigration has been justified both on moral grounds, which is not doing so well these days, when you look at the refugee crisis and other things. We're not quite as welcoming a nation as we once were. But then it was also, people were doing jobs that no one else wanted to do. But there are not going to be any jobs that no one else wants. There's not going to be any jobs! You know, farming is not going to be by people picking things in a field. It's all going to be done vertical farming or by machinery. I mean, what are those jobs that no one-- restaurants? They're going to have touchpads. They already are beginning to them. eatsa-- if you're in Washington, DC, you can go to the eatsa, the first robotic restaurant in Washington. There's already one in San Francisco. You can have your quinoa balls ordered on your iPad, and you pick them up. There's no people. There's, like, two guys in the back of the restaurant-- STEVEN BERKENFELD: We don't know what's in the back. They wouldn't let us in the back. [INTERPOSING VOICES] ANDY STERN: [LAUGH] But I've read that-- [LAUGHTER] STEVEN BERKENFELD: All we know is, your food appears. ANDY STERN: Exactly. You may not want to know what's in the back, but, you know. So I would just say, what are we going to do if the motivation was that we needed people to do certain kinds of work, and we don't have that kind of work? I think we have a whole different discussion about immigration. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Yeah. And I think, as Andy gives these examples, it's important not to think of it as binary-- that the job just goes away, that there are no people working on farms. It's just that technology allows you to do so much more with so much less. So it's a continuous trend of, you know, eliminating 5% this year and 10% next year and 20% the year after that. And you take away the jobs that way. It's better to actually think of it in terms of the activities. ANDY STERN: Yeah. It's a downward pressure on employment. And in my book, since I know Cornell does a lot of work with human-resource professionals, Dave Cote uses his HR department at Honeywell as his example of where you had 1,000 people when he first became the CEO. He's down to 300. He expects to go under 100. You ask him why-- technology. Everybody's more efficient, plus people want to interact and get the answers themselves. They don't want intermediaries-- any more, call up your HR person and ask them a question. You want your FAQ and your information online. And so there will always be HR people, just less and less and less. Same with lawyers, same with doctors. STEVEN BERKENFELD: So, on to cultural issues, values. How do you address the American aversion to money for nothing? And how do you reconcile this with the criticism that UBI's almost un-American, as contrary to some of our fundamental values of hard work and individual accountability? ANDY STERN: So the one thing I say is, the one job we need lots more of is philosophers. Because we set up Maslow's need hierarchy, and we said self-actualisation was the highest thing. I don't think we meant work was self-actualization only, for everyone. So I think we need to-- and I think that we should not allow anybody into this discussion who's over 30, because those of us who grew up loving work, who our work gave us meaning and purpose, are not in the right position to explain to people coming up in a very different employment world that we discussed what value work is going to have. So those are my two starting places. I'm really curious about these experiments that are being run in other countries, of what people do with time. Now, we do have somewhat of an experiment here. No one wants to-- it's EITC, which is, people get a once-a-year check. And at least we know that the bars aren't full and, in fact, most people use the money to pay off debts when they get their EITCs. So we shouldn't think that now, when people get a monthly check, they're going to do all the things that people worry that people are going to do. ] always say to people that it's always funny, because I go out to lunch with very successful people, who are very wealthy. And they want to talk about policy. And, after the third martini, they're asking me, aren't all these people going to drink their money away? [LAUGH] And I say, I don't know-- what have you been doing all lunchtime? [LAUGHTER] So I think there's a lot of things we need to learn. I don't know if-- you know, some people say we redefine work. But there's a series of wonderful things about UBI. It pays child-rearing parents, men and women, money for the first time, gives a value to that work. Prisoners who leave prison on reentry, who end up going back a lot because they don't have the economic ability to get by, can do that. People who want to go back to school. Workers who want to go on strike. I mean, there are lots of additional advantages of UBI that make it-- compensating things that we haven't done, sometimes, before, in the past. But I think this question is the biggest question. Because, then if you say, OK, work is fundamental, then tell me what the work program is that we're going to have everyone do. And there are things now that you and I have talked about, people can do for a while. Like, there's lots of what I call "mitigating policies." It's kind of Uber now versus Uber later. Uber now, Sarah and everybody will talk to you about all the wraparound benefits we could do, and Elizabeth Warren will talk to you about Social Security and how we could provide for it in a different way [AUDIO OUT] later, we have a different problem. So I think there's lots of Uber-now things. I think this philosophical question of what people are going to do with their time, forget-- you know, when there's not enough work to do. And I would argue, the opioid crisis in parts of this country is a bad example of what people do with their time when they have no money and no hope and they're 55 years old or their voting patterns are somewhat of an expression of that. So I think this is a really important question. But I don't think anybody's figured out how, long-term, the work's going to happen. You know, I said to you earlier, if one more person says to me the WPA-- and I say, the WPA was 80 years ago, in a very different economy. It was never meant to be permanent, it was a temporary transitional program. And a lot of people sent their-- were out in the woods, digging trails and whatever. So, when you're ready to let your kids go out, that's their life, is going and living in a camp and working in the woods, you know, OK, call me. Or when you think that the men are all going to be in infrastructure and the women, usually the women of color, are going to be home-care and child-care workers, I say, fine, that's not how it's going to work. When your male kid is ready to change my feeding tube, as his job, call me. Because then I'll be for guaranteed jobs. Because the only jobs anybody can think of are care jobs, energy-related jobs and infrastructure jobs. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Yeah. You talk about research and discussion, and there'll be a lot on the economic side of it-- how much will it cost, how we pay for it. But I think, as you just talk about that, there's all sorts of things that come into your head. What do people do with their time? How do we engage them in society? I was thinking about, if everyone's getting $1,000 a month, what does that do the crime, for instance? Is that reduced incentive? Right? Because there are people who are at a certain level. But I have heard that comment, of, won't people just drink it or use drugs? Maybe for the first month, but then they'll realize that they have to eat and have a place to live. So there is an element of, stop being so paternalistic. [INAUDIBLE] Except for the most challenged, mentally-ill challenged in our society, we let people make that decision. ANDY STERN: Yeah, and you do wonder how dignified it is for people to have to go to welfare offices and unemployment offices-- STEVEN BERKENFELD: Disability-- ANDY STERN: --and take drug tests, now, when you're [? unemployment. ?] You know, that, all of a sudden, because you can't find a job, you're a derelict and you have to take a drug test? I mean, you know, we're just going in the wrong direction. STEVEN BERKENFELD: There's the stigma, and I think there's also the uncertainty, the anxiety, of knowing how long those benefits will continue, that you continue to get disability. And this, by having it dependable and guaranteed, actually allows people to make different decisions. But let me just ask one more question. Then I'll turn it over to the audience. We discussed a lot the element of national service. And you can make a lot of, I think, good arguments that there should be mandatory, or let's call it "universal," national service. Just as an example of that, when someone turns 18 and they become eligible for the UBI, they spend a couple of years doing something for the community, for the country. Could be military service. Could be taking care of the elderly. Could be teaching pre-K, rebuilding our infrastructure. We can come up with dozens of ideas. But on the issue of money for nothing, I like the idea that some sort of national service creates a quid pro quo. You spend a couple of years-- and think in terms of veteran benefits and all that. But you spend a couple of years giving, and then you become-- it's a bad word, but-- "entitled." Or you've earned the right to receive this. Just your thoughts on it. ANDY STERN: So, because I knew so little about this idea, and then because the more you read everybody has all kinds of different permutations on the idea, I decided to just do a clean cut. Right? So I don't include children, which I would like to. I don't include national service, which I'd like to. Because I don't want to keep imagining what everybody else wants to add on to it. Right? OK, you get universal basic income, but you have to volunteer 10 hours a week, you know, to take care of people after your national service. Or you have to recycle your household goods. Or you have to walk, you know, 100, 500 steps every day, so that you're healthy, so you're not [INAUDIBLE]---- sort of leave it limited. I just [AUDIO OUT] would say, the first question for me is, is it a reasonable scenario for people to have to think about a world where there's not enough work, where maybe UBI is not a substitute for work but a big supplement to work, because there's only so many hours and it's divided differently. So the first question is, is it a problem where we should have a solution? And then the second question is, what's the solution? And then, within the solutions-- you know, whether it's work or basic income-- you know, what are the moral and other questions? You know, I think the country needs national service, period. Because I think we don't live in the same community. We can sit at home and watch things. We don't have to interact with people. I mean, I think there's lots of reasons you want to do it. You could tie it to lots of things, and I think universal basic income is a fair one. The other nice thing about tying it to national service is that, if you put all the two years of life-- 18 and 19, let's say-- out of the labor market, you will delay the loss of jobs, because you'll take that many people into a different arrangement than this arrangement. And so I think it has also labor-market potential positive consequences. STEVEN BERKENFELD: It kind of helps pay for it. ANDY STERN: Yes. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Because, if you had to spend government money on pre-K, for instance, you have the workforce, so you're already giving $1,000 a month, too, to actually do a lot of the work. Louis? LOUIS HYMAN: All right, well, let's take some questions from the audience. Who's up first? Of course, the guy at the end of the row. [LAUGHTER] You can pass the mic down. AUDIENCE: Hey, good evening. And, first off, I just want to say, as an [? ILRie ?] in finance, I'm very grateful that ILR puts on events like this and that we get such intelligent and meaningful discourse supported in New York City, for all of our enlightenment. So thank you for being here and for supporting this. But my question was on the economic consequences of UBI, as a subject that is still kind of on the frontier of economic policy and monetary and fiscal policy. What do you imagine being the kind of inflation results of a policy that would give guaranteed income to all citizens of the United States? And then also, what do you think will be the consequence on voluntary unemployment, as a result? Do you think that fewer people would choose to enroll in the workforce? And also, would prices go up in our economy? ANDY STERN: So I hope Steven's going to join me in answering these questions, since he knows more than I do about most of these things. So, on the first question of inflation, there's a big debate. No one knows. Everybody can point to different factors and say yes, no. No one really knows what's going to happen. In terms of what people will do, I think that's exactly why we're going to do experiments. They actually did five experiments in the United States. So, if any of you need your PhD dissertation and you haven't figured out the subject matter, I imagine somewhere in boxes is the results of all of that. Because it was true in Canada, and someone who did get their PhD has computerized all their records and learned what happened in Canada. None of that happened about-- in fact, the health results were better for people, the graduation rates were better for people, the mental health was improved in the community. They did it for a couple of years, universal basic income. They did it in the US, no one really knows exactly what happened on some of those characteristics. But we're going to find out shortly in some of these countries. Finland is actually doing it to test the work question. Because they really want people back in the labor market, but they think people aren't coming back for five- and seven-hour jobs because their social benefits are high enough that, when people are making the calculations, they say it's not worth working. They're trying to make work worth working. And so they're going to test that. And I just think no one knows the question, but all the indications are, it does not deter people from working because there's not enough money. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Yeah, I get that response a lot, too. Give them universal basic income, how many people will still want to work? And then you say, it's only $1,000 a month. And if you want to take vacations, you want to go out to eat, you maybe want a car-- you might not need one-- you want to send your kids to a private college, for instance, you need more than $1,000 a month, a lot more. But everything starts to change when you think about financial aid in colleges and how that's approached. I think, in many cases, people might decide to work as supplemental, as you referred to it. It might be that the part-time job is good enough. It might be that a TaskRabbit or Uber driver is enough to add a little bit more to what I need. People make different decisions about where they live. I mean, you made a very interesting point out that the ghettos that form around all the current programs, you need to have stores that accept food stamps and places you can cash these checks. You know, if everybody gets this check, it kind of allows you the flexibility to choose your path. You may just want to start a business. You may want to be an entrepreneur. So my sense is that it will be interesting but that most people will do something beyond just collecting the check. I think one good way to think about this issue-- and I can turn it over to you-- is, will we need a minimum wage anymore? Because people will have a little bit more bargaining power to decide whether or not they want to take that job. ANDY STERN: Spoken like a true Wall Street economist. [LAUGHTER] So my research assistant, who very sheepishly, at one moment after I had gotten to the conclusion that some big technological tsunami of labor disruption was going to occur, and had no idea what to do about it, came to me and said-- he told me later he had stayed up all night, talked to his wife before he did this. He said, I'm about to tell this labor guy that, like, work-- we're going to give people money for not working, and there aren't going to be unions, and there'll be no minimum wage. Because, he said, there's no reason have a minimum wage. And so he wrote me a-- it was very nice. He wrote me a 12-page syllabus that I actually used from then on and a whole explanation of it, to show me that this is something that's been well thought about. So, you know, I think there's lots of things we need to figure out, along the way here. LOUIS HYMAN: One part of that question I think is a really important question to talk about the basic income is thinking about, well, won't this just cause inflation? Won't this just be eroded by an increase in-- ANDY STERN: Is that true for Pell grants and college tuition? LOUIS HYMAN: Well, I'm curious how you respond to it. ANDY STERN: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, people say to me, do colleges raise tuition extra for then what they would when the grants, Pell grants, got-- I don't know. There's no research on it, I can tell you that, because I've tried to find the research. I'm just at a university, so I get to make a little fun, here, about universities. So I don't know. So far, the Alaska experiment and things have not shown, you know, price gouging or other things. But I don't think anyone knows. The interesting thing about housing is that people with money have more mobility. Albert Wanger is a big investor, early investor, in technology, and a libertarian, would say, if you look at the housing stock in Detroit, there's lots of housing stock to be fixed up. No one wants to fix it up. And why don't people move to Detroit and just go fix it up? Right? Because you could have a house for $1. But, he says, people don't have transportation. Then, if they get there, they have to eat. Then they have to buy building supplies. So they have plenty of sweat equity, but they have-- He said, now, give them a universal basic income, give four guys or two women and two men a universal basic income, now they got $4,000 a month. Maybe they'll get in the car and go to Detroit. Right? They'll have money to eat, they'll have asset-- and they'll build a house and build an asset, just like you were saying, being entrepreneurs. So, you know, I think lots of things are going to change when people have a guaranteed floor to think about things differently, which is what the kids who live in Silicon Valley do because of their parents. LOUIS HYMAN: Next question? AUDIENCE: I was wondering, how do you think more developing countries will react to the loss in jobs, as well, given that, I imagine, the issues that we'll face they'll also face? Do you think that universal basic income will also be something less-well-off countries will also have to implement, maybe just at a lower level? ANDY STERN: So, the ILO just put out a report that says-- this pretty-- STEVEN BERKENFELD: Just explain what the ILO is. ANDY STERN: The ILO is a United Nations organization, the International Labor Organization, that's a tripartite labor, government, and worker organization. It just did a study about the garment industry, which is the major industry in the Southeast Asian area. And it said that 88% of all the jobs in Cambodia and 86% of all the jobs in textiles, footwear, and clothing will be eliminated in the next decade by sewing bots. And the jobs will be reshored to the United States, just like manufacturing's being reshored-- not because the jobs are coming back, but because technology might as well put the jobs closer to the consumer and avoid some of the logistical costs. And the reason that's going to happen, in case you want to know how to buy your clothes, go down to Bloomingdale's right now and you can stand a little machine, and it measures your 360 degrees. And then it tells you which clothes in the store will look good on you. And if you don't like that, the next step will be, which is why they're all coming back to the United States, is, you will pick out the style you want and it will individually manufacture each garment separately. That's how much technology will make this cheap. So you have personalized clothing for every individual. That's why they're moving back, because the sewing bots will be able to do that. So I don't know what you do. In Rwanda, they've been trying to give 60,000 people [INAUDIBLE] a group, nonprofit, called Give Directly has been trying to give 60,000 Rwandans a basic income, at a very low level, to see what will happen. Interestingly enough, they're having a hard time getting people to take the money, because they're very suspicious of what's going on. So there's, like, a totally counterintuitive-- it's not like they're taking the money and getting drunk! They won't take the money, because they're not sure what it's going to mean to their culture and who's giving it and what's the purpose. So there's all kinds of unintended consequences here. But I think developing countries, as we're seeing, I used to think when Apple had all of its, you know, electronic parts made by Foxconn, which is a huge company-- employs 1 million factory workers in China and makes most of the component-- I used think, this is-- OK, I don't like American workers losing their jobs, but I'm really glad 1 million people in China just got lifted out of poverty. Until I learned that Terry Gou, the president of, has now ordered a million robots. Because he's realized the price of wages compared to the cost of machinery has gotten to the point where it's cheaper to have the machinery. So now I wonder, what's going to happen to China when all those Foxconn workers, in 5 or 10 years, are reduced by 90%? STEVEN BERKENFELD: I mean, when you talk to a robotics company, the biggest market is China. And it's not just that it's cheaper, it's just managing 1 million people. Right? There's all sorts of issues around managing people. And it's just easier to run your business if you take out all of that uncertainty and risk that people present. LOUIS HYMAN: I think we're going to have one more question. It's from the web. So this is from Don. "Why not include only people who need the income? Why give rich people money?" ANDY STERN: Well, there's a sociologist from UK who said, any policy for the poor is poor policy. Because the history of the country has been, A, things like social security are much more enduring when they're universal, welfare programs have historically been under attack, you can use the tax system quite effectively to take the money back rather than not giving people money. You could reorganize how the tax system works and claw it back differently. And I think what we've learned is that there is a sense in social security and programs like that that these are American programs. They're not poor-people's programs, they're not lazy-people's programs. We don't have to worry about, why are people taking the money. And so I think it is just a design question and a sociological and moral question of, is the right thing to do to change the tax system? Is the right thing to do is put a group of people into a welfare system and then constantly be trying to cut that back? If you could do that, you would ask yourself, why do we have 50 million people in poverty, right now? It's because, somehow, welfare programs are not seen as things that countries want to support. STEVEN BERKENFELD: Yeah, it's interesting. Because the question I have, do you expect more challenge from the right, who says here's another big government program, even though you're eliminating others, and higher taxes-- on the wealthy, probably? Or from the left, from progressives, who want to hold onto a lot of the programs and can start making a list that, you know, we have to provide school lunches and housing supplements and on and on, and who also think there needs to be kind of need space? Right? There needs to be an element of equity. And I do think, in response to that, that universal basic income, part of the appeal is that everybody gets it. If the rich get it, if Bill Gates gets it, that money just goes right back into the system. So it's all going to be taxed. For the ones who are just receiving universal basic income and don't have any supplemental income, they're not going to pay any taxes at all, I'd expect. So, when you really look at the economics of it, I don't think that giving it to everyone will change that much, because of tax policy that will go along with it. But it does really change the nature of the discussion when you say, this is something that we guarantee to all of our citizens. ANDY STERN: So let me just end by saying-- if that's where we are here-- so my goal in writing this book was, I don't mean to be Paul Revere or Johnny Appleseed or something. But, like, there is a tsunami of potential disruption about to occur. The ILR School is probably as good a place-- and I really appreciate what you're doing, Louis-- to kind of think about this, particularly given the technology relationships you have across-- you know. But I think we are foolish, as a country, and we don't have enough courage yet, as a country, to have this discussion in a public place. That there may not be enough work for people that want to do it, and what are the solutions? And what we always have learned in history is that, when the tsunami hits-- and I don't mean to say this in class warfare, because I'll put myself in the-- people who find higher ground are not poor people. They're not working people. They're people with resources. And we have a tsunami potential coming, and we should not let it destroy the very basic fabric of most Americans. We are seeing the opening act, in some-- and I'll say this-- in some of the Trump voters, of what people do when they're really mad because they think their dreams and their families cannot live the life. That is a problem right now. Amongst a certain group of people, it is going to grow. And people who spend a lot of money sending their kids to college, who did everything right, are going to find their kids don't have a future. And we are insane, as a country, to not have this discussion when there's a chance to do something about it. That's why I wrote this book. LOUIS HYMAN: Great. On that note, on a very happy note, I'd like to say-- [LAUGHTER] --thank you to Andy and Steven for leading this discussion tonight, and hope to welcome you all back next week, when we discuss the future of freelancing the online economy, and to encourage people who are online to join us in person, here on 34th Street in delightful Manhattan, where we're going to have free wine. That's how we're going to spend our basic income. All right. Thank you so much for coming out tonight. [APPLAUSE] ANNOUNCER: This has been a production of the ILR School at Cornell University.
A2 初級 美國腔 全民基本收入。對顛覆性技術的迴應 (Universal Basic Income: A Response to Disruptive Technology) 21 0 王惟惟 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日 更多分享 分享 收藏 回報 影片單字