Name: TED】喬納森-海德特：分裂的美國能癒合嗎？(Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt) (【TED】Jonathan Haidt: Can a divided America heal? (Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt))
Uploaded: 2021-01-14T07:31:38.000Z
Duration: 20 min 18 s

Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Melody Tang

克里斯·安德森： 所以，強，這感覺蠻可怕的。

CA: It feels like the world is in a place

People don't just disagree in the way that we're familiar with,

What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?

這到底是怎麼回事， 而我們又是怎麼走到這一步？

There's a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.

that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just --

皮尤研究中心的調查研究顯示，

we don't just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,

and we think that they are a threat to the nation.

我們不只是不喜歡他們； 我們很強烈地不喜歡他們。

而且我們認為他們是對國家的威脅。

and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.

because it feels like this is different than before; it's much more intense.

Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,

因為這個感覺和以往不同； 比以前更強烈。

I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,

當我在看任何一種社會難題時，

我都是應用道德心理學的 三項基本原則，

So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind

在思考政治問題時， 你一定要謹記的第一件事是

One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature

關於人類的社會天性， 最簡單且最偉大的名言

我和我的兄弟一起 對抗我們的表兄弟；

me and my brother and cousins against the stranger."

我和我的兄弟和表兄弟們 一起對抗陌生人。」

And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies

那個部落意識使我們 創造出大型社會，

and to come together in order to compete with others.

使我們結合在一起來與其他人抗爭。

That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,

它使我們脫離叢林、脫離小團體，

but it means that we have eternal conflict.

但那意味著我們永遠會有衝突。

What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,

我們社會的哪些面向 使這些衝突更激烈，

You're saying that that's actually baked into most people's mental wiring

你的意思是，實際上那是大部份人 天生就或多或少具有的心理面？

強：喔，絕對是。這只是 人類社會認知的一個基本面向。

JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.

但，我們也能 非常和平地住在一起，

But we can also live together really peacefully,

而且我們發明了各種 有趣的活動，例如玩戰爭遊戲…

and we've invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.

我們以這些方式來 體現我們的部落天性，

these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature

我們也很擅長貿易、 探索、認識新人。

We're also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.

所以你要知道我們的部落意識 是會上下起伏的，

So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down --

而不是我們注定會一直彼此對抗，

it's not like we're doomed to always be fighting each other,

克：部落的大小可以縮小或擴大。

CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.

以及我們所認定的 「其他人」或「他們」，

有些人相信，這個過程 可能無限期地持續下去。

And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.

克：我們的確持續在擴展這個部落。

CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.

我們應該要去了解 可能有種新的左右派區別。

where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction.

我們大家目前承襲的左右派觀念

I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it,

comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,

但我認為我們現在越來越會看到

But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly,

is a divide in all the Western democracies

between the people who want to stop at nation,

people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,

他們關心他們的鎮、 他們的社區、他們的國家。

they care about their town, their community and their nation.

And then those who are anti-parochial and who --

每當我搞混時，我就想 約翰藍儂的歌「想像」：

whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

「想像沒有國家， 沒有殺戮或戰死的理由。」

"Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for."

所以這些人想要比較全球性的治理，

And so these are the people who want more global governance,

他們不喜歡分國家、 他們不喜歡邊界。

they don't like nation states, they don't like borders.

有個名字叫莎士比亞的 偉大的比喻家

There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare --

「我們把開合橋向上拉 或是向下放？」

"Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"

那時英國人在那點的比例 是 52 對 48。

And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.

And America is divided on that point, too.

克：所以，我們這些 和披頭四一起長大的人，

CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles

有著嬉皮哲學， 夢想著比較連結的世界，

and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world --

覺得很理想，且認為「怎麼 可能有人會把它做負面解讀？」

it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?"

And what you're saying is that, actually,

現今有數百萬人 覺得那不只是愚蠢；

millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly;

還是危險且錯誤的， 並且他們對此感到恐懼。

it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.

強：我認為…特別是在歐洲， 但這裡也是一樣…

JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,

And I think this is where we have to look very carefully

去看待關於多樣化 與移民的社會科學。

at the social science about diversity and immigration.

一旦變成是左派喜歡、而右派…

once it becomes something that the left loves and the right --

甚至社會科學家對此 也無法清楚地思考。

then even the social scientists can't think straight about it.

The American economy has grown enormously from it.

Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.

But what the globalists, I think, don't see,

TED】喬納森-海德特：分裂的美國能癒合嗎？(Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt) (【TED】Jonathan Haidt: Can a divided America heal? (Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt))

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TED】喬納森-海德特：分裂的美國能癒合嗎？(Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt) (【TED】Jonathan Haidt: Can a divided America heal? (Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt))

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