So you've had this amazing viewpoint,

克里斯安德森：克莉絲蒂安， 很高興你今天能來。

and perhaps it's fair to say that in the last few years,

所以，你有個很棒的觀點，

there have been some alarming developments that you're seeing.

也許可以說，在過去的幾年間，

What's alarmed you most?

你看見了一些令人擔憂的發展。

Christiane Amanpour: Well, just listening to the earlier speakers,

最讓你擔憂的是什麼？

I can frame it in what they've been saying:

克莉絲蒂安艾曼普：嗯， 聽了前幾位講者的演說，

climate change, for instance -- cities, the threat to our environment

我可以借用他們所說的來表達：

and our lives.

比如，氣候改變、城市， 對我們的環境

It basically also boils down to understanding the truth

以及生活的威脅。

and to be able to get to the truth of what we're talking about

基本上，可以歸結到了解真相，

in order to really be able to solve it.

並能夠針對我們 談論的議題去探究真相，

So if 99.9 percent of the science on climate

才能夠真正去解決它。

is empirical, scientific evidence,

所以，如果 99.9% 的氣候科學

but it's competing almost equally with a handful of deniers,

都是實證的、科學的證據，

that is not the truth;

但卻在與少數駁斥者 幾乎平頭式地競爭，

that is the epitome of fake news.

那就不是真相，

And so for me, the last few years -- certainly this last year --

而是假新聞的縮影。

has crystallized the notion of fake news in a way that's truly alarming

對我而言，過去幾年， 特別是最近這一年，

and not just some slogan to be thrown around.

假新聞的概念被以一種 很讓人擔憂的方式給具體化了，

Because when you can't distinguish between the truth and fake news,

不再只是隨處喊喊的口號而已。

you have a very much more difficult time trying to solve

因為當你無法區別 真相和假新聞的差別時，

some of the great issues that we face.

你就會更難去試圖解決

CA: Well, you've been involved in this question of,

我們面對的一些重大議題。

what is balance, what is truth, what is impartiality,

克里斯：你涉入

for a long time.

什麼是平衡、什麼是真相、 什麼是公正這些問題，

You were on the front lines reporting the Balkan Wars 25 years ago.

已經很長一段時間。

And back then, you famously said,

25 年前，你在巴爾幹 戰爭的前線做報導。

by calling out human right abuses,

那時，你說過一句名言，

you said, "Look, there are some situations one simply cannot be neutral about,

大聲說出人權被侵犯，

because when you're neutral,

你說：「聽著，有些狀況 就是無法中立去看待，

you are an accomplice."

因為當你中立時，

So, do you feel that today's journalists aren't heeding that advice

你就是共犯。」

about balance?

你覺得現今的記者沒有留意到

CA: Well, look, I think for journalists, objectivity is the golden rule.

那個關於平衡的建議嗎？

But I think sometimes we don't understand what objectivity means.

克莉絲蒂安：我認為對記者而言， 客觀是黃金法則。

And I actually learned this very, very young in my career,

但我認為，有時我們 並不了解客觀的意義。

which was during the Balkan Wars.

我在職涯的極早期已學到了這一點，

I was young then.

當時是在巴爾幹戰爭的期間。

It was about 25 years ago.

那時我很年輕。

And what we faced was the wholesale violation, not just of human rights,

大約是 25 年前。

but all the way to ethnic cleansing and genocide,

當時我們面對的是大規模的違反，

and that has been adjudicated in the highest war crimes court

不只違反人權而已，

in the world.

而是一路到排除異族和種族滅絕，

So, we know what we were seeing.

已經被世界最高戰犯法庭裁決了。

Trying to tell the world what we were seeing

我們知道我們看見了什麼。

brought us accusations of bias,

為了試圖告訴世界我們看見了什麼，

of siding with one side,

導致我們被控訴，說我們有偏見、

of not seeing the whole side,

選邊站、

and just, you know, trying to tell one story.

不看整體大局，

I particularly and personally was accused of siding with,

而只述說單方片面的故事。

for instance, the citizens of Sarajevo --

我個人還特別遭到控訴，

"siding with the Muslims,"

比如說我站在塞拉耶佛市民的那一邊，

because they were the minority who were being attacked

說我「站在穆斯林的那一邊」，

by Christians on the Serb side

因為在那裡他們是被攻擊的少數，

in this area.

被與塞爾維亞同一陣線的

And it worried me.

基督徒攻擊。

It worried me that I was being accused of this.

那讓我憂心。

I thought maybe I was wrong,

我憂心遭受這樣的指控，

maybe I'd forgotten what objectivity was.

心想，也許我錯了，

But then I started to understand that what people wanted

也許我忘了客觀是什麼。

was actually not to do anything --

接著我開始了解，人們想要的

not to step in,

其實是什麼都不做，

not to change the situation,

不要涉入，

not to find a solution.

不要去改變局勢，

And so, their fake news at that time,

不要去找解決方案。

their lie at that time --

所以，那時他們的假新聞，

including our government's, our democratically elected government's,

那時說謊的

with values and principles of human rights --

包括我們的政府，我們的民選政府，

their lie was to say that all sides are equally guilty,

有著人權價值和原則的政府，

that this has been centuries of ethnic hatred,

他們的謊言是，每一方都同等有罪，

whereas we knew that wasn't true,

這是由數百世紀的民族仇恨造成的；

that one side had decided to kill, slaughter and ethnically cleanse

而我們知道那並非事實，

another side.

而是一方鐵了心要屠殺另一方，

So that is where, for me,

滅絕異族。

I understood that objectivity means giving all sides an equal hearing

所以，就在當時我了解到

and talking to all sides,

客觀意味著

but not treating all sides equally,

給每一方被傾聽的平等機會，

not creating a forced moral equivalence or a factual equivalence.

並跟每一方都談，

And when you come up against that crisis point

而不是平等對待每一方，

in situations of grave violations of international and humanitarian law,

不是勉強造出道德等值或事實等值。

if you don't understand what you're seeing,

當你面對國際法及人權法

if you don't understand the truth

被重大違反的危機關口，

and if you get trapped in the fake news paradigm,

如果你不了解你看到了什麼，

then you are an accomplice.

如果你不了解真相，

And I refuse to be an accomplice to genocide.

如果你被假新聞寫作典範給困住，

(Applause)

那麼你就是個共犯。

CH: So there have always been these propaganda battles,

而我拒絕成為種族屠殺的共犯。

and you were courageous in taking the stand you took back then.

（掌聲）

Today, there's a whole new way, though,

克里斯：所以，宣傳戰一直存在著，

in which news seems to be becoming fake.

而你那時有勇氣採取了堅定的立場。

How would you characterize that?

不過，現今有了全新的

CA: Well, look -- I am really alarmed.

新聞變成假新聞的方式。

And everywhere I look,

你會如何描述它的特性？

you know, we're buffeted by it.

克莉絲蒂安：嗯，我真的很憂心。

Obviously, when the leader of the free world,

放眼任何地方，

when the most powerful person in the entire world,

我們都不斷遭受它的衝擊。

which is the president of the United States --

顯然，當自由世界的領袖，

this is the most important, most powerful country in the whole world,

當整個世界最有權勢的人，

economically, militarily, politically in every which way --

也就是美國總統──

and it seeks to, obviously, promote its values and power around the world.

美國是全世界最重要、 最有權勢的國家，

So we journalists, who only seek the truth --

在經濟、軍事、政治， 每個面向都是──

I mean, that is our mission --

很顯然尋求要在全世界 提升價值和權勢。

we go around the world looking for the truth

所以我們這些只尋求真相的記者，

in order to be everybody's eyes and ears,

懷抱我們的使命，

people who can't go out in various parts of the world

跑遍世界去尋找真相，

to figure out what's going on about things that are vitally important

要成為那些無法去到 世界各地的人的眼睛和耳朵，

to everybody's health and security.

我們要找出發生了哪些事，

So when you have a major world leader accusing you of fake news,

哪些事會大大影響 每個人的健康與安全。

it has an exponential ripple effect.

所以，當那個主要的世界領袖

And what it does is, it starts to chip away

指控你做假新聞時，

at not just our credibility,

會引起呈指數成長的漣漪效應，

but at people's minds --

造成的結果是開始一點一點削弱

people who look at us, and maybe they're thinking,

不只我們的信用，

"Well, if the president of the United States says that,

還有人們的理智與主見。

maybe somewhere there's a truth in there."

人們看著我們，也許他們在想，

CH: Presidents have always been critical of the media --

「嗯，如果美國總統都那樣說了，

CA: Not in this way.

也許或多或少是真的。」

CH: So, to what extent --

克里斯：總統們向來都對媒體很不滿──

(Laughter)

克莉絲蒂安：不是現在這樣的方式。

(Applause)

克里斯：所以，到什麼程度──

CH: I mean, someone a couple years ago looking at the avalanche of information

（笑聲）

pouring through Twitter and Facebook and so forth,

（掌聲）

might have said,

克里斯：我是說，幾年前

"Look, our democracies are healthier than they've ever been.

如果有人看見大量資訊湧入，

There's more news than ever.

資訊從 Twitter 及 Facebook 等地湧入，

Of course presidents will say what they'll say,

他可能會說：

but everyone else can say what they will say.

「我們未曾像現在這麼民主。

What's not to like? How is there an extra danger?"

新聞量遠多於過去。

CA: So, I wish that was true.

當然，總統們會說他們要說的話，

I wish that the proliferation of platforms upon which we get our information

但其他人也都可以說自己想說的。

meant that there was a proliferation of truth and transparency

有什麼不好？為什麼 會存在額外的危險呢？」

and depth and accuracy.

克莉絲蒂安：我希望那是真的。

But I think the opposite has happened.

我希望

You know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite,

資訊來源平台的數量激增

I will confess.

意味著真相和透明度激增，

Even when we started to talk about the information superhighway,

深度和正確性也激增。

which was a long time ago,

但我認為，實際發生的恰恰相反。

before social media, Twitter and all the rest of it,

我承認自己有點算是盧德份子。 （註：反對技術革新的人）

I was actually really afraid

即使當我們開始談到資訊高速公路，

that that would put people into certain lanes and tunnels

那是很久以前了，

and have them just focusing on areas of their own interest

在社交媒體、Twitter、 這類平台之前，

instead of seeing the broad picture.

其實那時我很害怕，

And I'm afraid to say that with algorithms, with logarithms,

怕它會把人們放到某些線道或隧道，

with whatever the "-ithms" are

使他們只聚焦在自己感興趣的領域，

that direct us into all these particular channels of information,

而不是放寬視野去看大局。

that seems to be happening right now.

我很怕演算法、對數

I mean, people have written about this phenomenon.

這類東西被用來

People have said that yes, the internet came,

引領我們到特定的資訊管道，

its promise was to exponentially explode our access to more democracy,

而這正似乎是現在正在發生的情形。

more information,

人們已經在寫關於這個現象的文章，

less bias,

人們說，是的，網際網路到來了，

more varied information.

它承諾讓我們能大量接觸更多民主、

And, in fact, the opposite has happened.

更多資訊、

And so that, for me, is incredibly dangerous.

較少偏見、

And again, when you are the president of this country and you say things,

和更多樣化的資訊。

it also gives leaders in other undemocratic countries the cover

但事實上，發生的情形相反。

to affront us even worse,

所以對我來說，那是相當危險的。

and to really whack us -- and their own journalists --

同樣的，若你身為國家總統，

with this bludgeon of fake news.

你的發言會掩護 其他不民主國家的領袖，

CH: To what extent is what happened, though,

讓他們能進一步冒犯我們，

in part, just an unintended consequence,

揮著假新聞的棍棒紮紮實實痛擊我們

that the traditional media that you worked in

和他們自己的記者。

had this curation-mediation role,

克里斯：單就已經發生的事來說，

where certain norms were observed,

非蓄意的後果到了什麼程度？

certain stories would be rejected because they weren't credible,

你所從事的傳統媒體業

but now that the standard for publication and for amplification

扮演著調解和處理資訊的角色，

is just interest, attention, excitement, click,

遵從某些基準，

"Did it get clicked on?"

駁回一些不可信的故事。

"Send it out there!"

但現在

and that's what's -- is that part of what's caused the problem?

出版和散播的標準

CA: I think it's a big problem, and we saw this in the election of 2016,

只剩下有趣、注意力、 刺激、點閱數，

where the idea of "clickbait" was very sexy and very attractive,

「它被點閱了嗎？」

and so all these fake news sites and fake news items

「把它發出去！」

were not just haphazardly and by happenstance being put out there,

那是造成問題的部分原因嗎？

there's been a whole industry in the creation of fake news

克莉絲蒂安：我認為這是個大問題， 2016 年的大選已看到這現象，

in parts of Eastern Europe, wherever,

那時，點閱誘餌是非常性感、 非常有吸引力的，

and you know, it's planted in real space and in cyberspace.

因此所有這些假新聞網站 及一則則假新聞

So I think that, also,

並不是隨意或偶然被放在那裡，

the ability of our technology to proliferate this stuff

而是有一整個產業在製造假新聞，

at the speed of sound or light, just about --

在部份東歐地區，無論是哪，

we've never faced that before.

假新聞被植入實體和網路的空間中。

And we've never faced such a massive amount of information

所以我也認為，

which is not curated

我們的科技有能力 將這類東西擴散出去，

by those whose profession leads them to abide by the truth,

擴散的速度幾近音速或光速，

to fact-check

這是我們未曾面對過的。

and to maintain a code of conduct and a code of professional ethics.

我們未曾面對過

CH: Many people here may know people who work at Facebook

如此大量、未經彙整的資訊，

or Twitter and Google and so on.

未被那些身負把關職則、

They all seem like great people with good intention --

必須確認事實的真相、

let's assume that.

並維持職業倫理準則 與行為準則的那些人

If you could speak with the leaders of those companies,

所彙整過的資訊。

what would you say to them?

克里斯：這裡許多人可能認識 在 Facebook、Twitter、

CA: Well, you know what --

Google 等公司工作的人。

I'm sure they are incredibly well-intentioned,

他們都看似很棒、有著良善的意圖，

and they certainly developed an unbelievable, game-changing system,

就讓我們先這樣假設。

where everybody's connected on this thing called Facebook.

若你能和這些公司的領導人說話，

And they've created a massive economy for themselves

你會對他們說什麼？

and an amazing amount of income.

克莉絲蒂安：你知道嗎，

I would just say,

我相信他們的意圖都是非常良善的，

"Guys, you know, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee

他們確實發展出令人難以置信 並且改變遊戲規則的系統，

and look at what's happening to us right now."

每個人都在這個名叫 Facebook 的東西上彼此連結。

Mark Zuckerberg wants to create a global community.

他們為自己創造出大規模的經濟、

I want to know: What is that global community going to look like?

以及驚人的收入。

I want to know where the codes of conduct actually are.

我只會說：

Mark Zuckerberg said --

「各位，該是醒來的時候了， 聞一聞咖啡、看看現在

and I don't blame him, he probably believed this --

在我們身上發生了那些事。」

that it was crazy to think

馬克祖克柏想要創造一個全球社群。

that the Russians or anybody else could be tinkering and messing around

我想要知道：這個全球社群 看起來會是什麼樣子？

with this avenue.

我想要知道行為準則到底在哪裡。

And what have we just learned in the last few weeks?

馬克祖克柏說──

That, actually, there has been a major problem in that regard,

我不怪他，他可能確實相信這點──

and now they're having to investigate it and figure it out.

他說，如果認為俄國人

Yes, they're trying to do what they can now

或是其他人可以在用這裡胡搞亂弄，

to prevent the rise of fake news,

那就太瘋狂了。

but, you know,

我們在前幾週剛剛學到了什麼？

it went pretty unrestricted for a long, long time.

我們得知其實那方面的問題大得很，

So I guess I would say, you know,

現在他們得要調查到底怎麼一回事。

you guys are brilliant at technology;

是的，他們目前正傾力試著

let's figure out another algorithm.

防止假新聞興起，

Can we not?

但你知道，

CH: An algorithm that includes journalistic investigation --

長久以來，假新聞一直未曾受限。

CA: I don't really know how they do it, but somehow, you know --

所以，我想我會說，

filter out the crap!

你們在科技方面才華橫溢，

(Laughter)

咱們來想出另一個演算法，

And not just the unintentional --

行吧？

(Applause)

克里斯：一個包含 新聞調查的演算法──

but the deliberate lies that are planted

克莉絲蒂安：其實我不清楚他們 怎麼做，但總要以某種方式

by people who've been doing this as a matter of warfare

把狗屁都過濾掉！

for decades.

（笑聲）

The Soviets, the Russians --

不僅僅濾掉非蓄意的，

they are the masters of war by other means, of hybrid warfare.

（掌聲）

And this is a --

也要濾掉刻意植入的謊言，

this is what they've decided to do.

由數十年來習以為常 把假新聞當作戰爭手段的那些人

It worked in the United States,

所植入的謊言。