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  • Let's go back to 1957.

    譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: 易帆 余

  • Representatives from six European countries

    讓我們一起回到 1957 年。

  • had come to Rome

    來自六個歐洲國家的代表

  • to sign the treaty that was to create the European Union.

    來到了羅馬,

  • Europe was destroyed.

    簽訂了創立歐盟的條約。

  • A world war had emerged from Europe.

    歐洲被毀掉了。

  • The human suffering was unbelievable

    世界大戰在歐洲爆發。

  • and unprecedented.

    人類受到的苦難是難以置信的、

  • Those men

    史無前例的。

  • wanted to create a peaceful,

    那些人

  • democratic Europe,

    想要創造一個和平、

  • a Europe that works for its people.

    民主的歐洲,

  • And one of the many building blocks

    一個為人民服務的歐洲。

  • in that peace project

    這個和平計畫的

  • was a common European market.

    許多組成元素之中,

  • Already back then,

    其中一個就是歐洲共同市場。

  • they saw how markets,

    在當時,

  • when left to themselves,

    他們就已經明白,

  • can sort of slip into being just the private property

    市場如果被放任不管,

  • of big businesses and cartels,

    就會造成私人企業的

  • meeting the needs of some businesses

    市場壟斷與聯合壟斷行為。

  • and not the needs of customers.

    它們只想滿足某些企業的需求,

  • So from our very first day,

    而非消費者的需求。

  • in 1957,

    所以,打從第一天起,

  • the European Union had rules

    在 1957 年,

  • to defend fair competition.

    歐盟就訂定了一些規則

  • And that means competition on the merits,

    用來保護市場的公平競爭,

  • that you compete on the quality of your products,

    也就是良性競爭,

  • the prices you can offer,

    你要靠你的產品品質、

  • the services, the innovation that you produce.

    提供的價格、

  • That's competition on the merits.

    服務、創新來競爭。

  • You have a fair chance of making it on such a market.

    這樣才是良性競爭。

  • And it's my job,

    在這樣的市場上, 你才有公平的成功機會。

  • as Commissioner for Competition,

    而身為歐盟

  • to make sure that companies who do business in Europe

    競爭委員會的委員長, 我的工作是

  • live by those rules.

    確保在歐洲做生意的公司

  • But let's take a step back.

    能因為這些規則, 可以安心地做生意。

  • Why do we need rules on competition at all?

    但,讓我們先退一步想想。

  • Why not just let businesses compete?

    為什麼競爭還需要定規則?

  • Isn't that also the best for us

    為什麼不放任企業去競爭就好了?

  • if they compete freely,

    如果它們能自由競爭,

  • since more competition

    對我們不是最好的嗎?

  • drives more quality,

    畢竟,越多競爭

  • lower prices, more innovation?

    會帶動更好的品質、

  • Well, mostly it is.

    更低的價格、更多的創新,不是嗎?

  • But the problem is that sometimes, for businesses,

    嗯,大致上來說是沒錯。

  • competition can be inconvenient,

    問題是,有時候,對企業來說,

  • because competition means that the race is never over,

    競爭會帶來不方便,

  • the game is never won.

    因為競爭意味著, 賽跑永遠不會結束,

  • No matter how well you were doing in the past,

    永遠沒有比賽贏家。

  • there's always someone

    不論你在過去做得多好,

  • who are out there wanting to take your place.

    總有某個人

  • So the temptation to avoid competition

    等著要取代你的位置。

  • is powerful.

    所以,規避競爭的誘惑

  • It's rooted in motives as old as Adam and Eve:

    是很強大的。

  • in greed for yet more money,

    它深根在與亞當夏娃 一樣古老的動機裡面:

  • in fear of losing your position in the market

    這些動機包括:對錢的貪婪、

  • and all the benefits it brings.

    怕失去在市場上地位的恐懼感、

  • And when greed and fear

    還有它帶來的所有利益。

  • are linked to power,

    當貪婪和恐懼

  • you have a dangerous mix.

    跟權力連結在一起,

  • We see that in political life.

    就是一種很危險的組合。

  • In part of the world,

    我們在政治生態中可以看到這點。

  • the mix of greed and fear

    在世界的某些地區,

  • means that those who get power

    貪婪和恐懼的結合

  • become reluctant to give it back.

    意味著取得權力的人

  • One of the many things

    會不願意把權力交回。

  • I like and admire in our democracies

    而民主,

  • are the norms

    讓我很喜歡和欣賞的其中一點

  • that make our leaders hand over power

    就是規範,

  • when voters tell them to.

    當投票者要求我們的領袖 把權力交出來時,

  • And competition rules can do a similar thing in the market,

    他們就必須要交出來。

  • making sure that greed and fear doesn't overcome fairness.

    在市場上,競爭規則 也有類似的作用,

  • Because those rules mean

    它能確保貪婪和恐懼不會戰勝公平。

  • that companies cannot misuse their power to undermine competition.

    因為那些規則意味著

  • Think for a moment about your car.

    公司無法濫用它們的 權力來破壞競爭。

  • It has thousands of parts,

    試想你的汽車

  • from the foam that makes the seats

    有數以千計的零件,

  • to the electrical wiring to the light bulbs.

    從做椅子用的泡沫材料,

  • And for many of those parts,

    到電力線路,到燈泡都是。

  • the world's carmakers,

    很多零件的提供,

  • they are dependent on only a few suppliers.

    世界上的汽車製造商

  • So it's hardly surprising

    只能仰賴少數的供應商。

  • that it is kind of tempting for those suppliers

    所以,並不意外

  • to come together and fix prices.

    會有某種誘因

  • But just imagine what that could do

    讓那些供應商想要聯合定價。

  • to the final price of your new car in the market.

    但,想像一下,這對市場上

  • Except, it's not imaginary.

    新車的最終價格會有什麼樣的影響。

  • The European Commission

    此外,這並非想像出來的。

  • has dealt with already seven different car parts cartels,

    歐盟執行委員會

  • and we're still investigating some.

    已經處理過七件不同的 汽車零件企業聯合壟斷行為,

  • Here, the Department of Justice

    還有一些案件仍在調查中。

  • are also looking into the market for car parts,

    而這裡的司法部

  • and it has called it the biggest criminal investigation

    也在調查汽車零件的市場,

  • it has ever pursued.

    而司法部說這是它們所進行過

  • But without competition rules,

    最大的犯罪調查。

  • there would be no investigation,

    但若沒有競爭規則,

  • and there would be nothing to stop this collusion from happening

    就不會有調查,

  • and the prices of your car to go up.

    就沒有什麼能夠阻止共謀的發生,

  • Yet it's not only companies

    而你的汽車價格就會上漲。

  • who can undermine fair competition.

    但,不只是公司

  • Governments can do it, too.

    會破壞競爭。

  • And governments do that when they hand out subsidies

    政府也會。

  • to just the favorite few, the selected.

    政府分發補助金給

  • They may do that when they hand out subsidies --

    少數幾個他們喜歡的對象。

  • and, of course, all financed by taxpayers --

    他們發補助金的行為 就是一種不公平的競爭,

  • to companies.

    當然,這些錢全都是由我們

  • That may be in the form of special tax treatments,

    納稅人及公司買單。

  • like the tax benefits

    採用的形式可能是 特別的課稅方式,

  • that firms like Fiat, Starbucks and Apple got

    比如稅率優惠,

  • from some governments in Europe.

    像飛雅特、星巴克、蘋果這些 公司,都有從歐洲的一些政府

  • Those subsidies stop companies from competing on equal terms.

    得到類似這樣的利益。

  • They can mean that the companies that succeed,

    那些補助,阻礙了公司之間的公平競爭。

  • well, they are the companies that got the most subsidy,

    也就是說:成功的公司

  • the ones that are the best-connected,

    會拿走大部分的補助款,

  • and not, as it should be,

    或是擁有最好關係的公司拿走,

  • the companies that serve consumers the best.

    而不是,雖然應該

  • So there are times when we need to step in

    是由提供消費者 最佳服務的公司獲得補助。

  • to make sure that competition works the way it should.

    所以有時候需要我們介入,

  • By doing that, we help the market to work fairly,

    來確保競爭都是依照 應該的方式來運作。

  • because competition gives consumers the power to demand a fair deal.

    透過這麼做,我們能 協助市場公平運作,

  • It means that companies know that if they cannot offer good prices

    因為競爭給予消費者 要求公平交易的權力。

  • or the service that's expected,

    那意味著,公司知道如果 它們無法提供好的價格

  • well, the customers will go somewhere else.

    或是預期的服務,

  • And that sort of fairness is more important

    那麼,消費者就會去找別家公司。

  • than we may sometimes realize.

    那種公平性的重要程度,

  • Very few people think about politics all the time.

    比我們所了解的還要高。

  • Some even skip it at election time.

    很少人會隨時都在想政治。

  • But we are all in the market.

    有些人甚至在選舉時都不會去投票。

  • Every day, we are in the market.

    但我們都在市場裡。

  • And we don't want businesses to agree on prices in the back office.

    每天,我們都在市場裡。

  • We don't want them to divide the market between them.

    我們並不想要企業在背後 對價格上下其手。

  • We don't want one big company

    我們不想要它們彼此間瓜分市場。

  • just to shut out competitors

    我們不想要一家大公司

  • from ever showing us what they can do.

    把其它競爭者擋在門外,

  • If that happens,

    讓我們看不見後者能做什麼。

  • well, obviously, we feel that someone has cheated us,

    如果那種情況發生了,

  • that we are being ignored or taken for granted by the market.

    很明顯地,我們會覺得 有人欺騙了我們,

  • And that may undermine not only our trust in the market

    我們被忽視了、或是被市場予取予求。

  • but also our trust in the society.

    那可能會破壞我們對市場的信任、

  • In a recent survey,

    也會破壞我們對社會的信任。

  • more than two-thirds of Europeans

    在一項近期的調查中,

  • said that they had felt the effects of lack of competition:

    超過三分之二的歐洲人

  • that the price for electricity was too high,

    說他們感受到了 缺乏競爭所造成的效應:

  • that the price for the medicines they needed was too high,

    電價太貴,

  • that they had no real choice

    他們所需之藥品的價格太高,

  • if they wanted to travel by bus or by plane,

    他們沒有辦法選擇

  • or they got poor service from their internet provider.

    要坐巴士或是飛機旅行,

  • In short, they found that the market didn't treat them fairly.

    或是網際網路提供者 提供給他們的服務很糟。

  • And that might seem like very small things,

    簡言之,他們發現, 市場並沒有公平對待他們。

  • but they can give you this sense

    那可能看起來只是件小事,

  • that the world isn't really fair.

    但這些小事會讓你覺得

  • And they see the market, which was supposed to serve everyone,

    世界其實並不公平。

  • become more like the private property of a few powerful companies.

    市場本來應該是要服務 每個人的,但他們卻看到市場

  • The market is not the society.

    變成更像是少數 強大公司的私人財產。

  • Our societies are, of course, much, much more than the market.

    市場並不是社會。

  • But lack of trust in the market

    當然,我們的社會遠遠超過市場。

  • can rub off on society

    但缺乏對市場的信任,

  • so we lose trust in our society as well.

    可能會對社會產生影響,

  • And it may be the most important thing we have, trust.

    所以我們也會失去對社會的信任。

  • We can trust each other if we are treated as equals.

    而我們所擁有的東西當中, 最重要的可能就是信任。

  • If we are all to have the same chances,

    如果我們被平等對待, 我們就能信任彼此。

  • well, we all have to follow the same fundamental rules.

    如果我們都有同樣的機會,

  • Of course, some people and some businesses are more successful than others,

    我們都得要遵循同樣的根本規則,

  • but we do not trust in a society

    當然,有些人或企業比 其他人或企業更成功,

  • if the prizes are handed out

    但如果獎品在比賽開始之前

  • even before the contest begins.

    就已經先給出去的話,

  • And this is where competition rules come in,

    我們是不可能會相信這個社會的。

  • because when we make sure that markets work fairly,

    這就是需要競爭規則的原因了,

  • then businesses compete on the merits,

    因為當我們能確保市場公平運作,

  • and that helps to build the trust that we need as citizens

    那麼企業之間就能良性競爭,

  • to feel comfortable and in control,

    那就能夠協助建立信任, 我們公民需要這種信任

  • and the trust that allows our society to work.

    才能感到到社會是舒服且有秩序的,

  • Because without trust, everything becomes harder.

    這種信任也會讓 我們的社會能夠運作。

  • Just to live our daily lives, we need to trust in strangers,

    因為,若沒有信任, 一切都會變得比較困難。

  • to trust the banks who keep our money,

    光是日常生活, 我們就需要信任陌生人,

  • the builders who build our home,

    信任我們存款的銀行,

  • the electrician who comes to fix the wiring,

    信任建造我們房子的建商,

  • the doctor who treats us when we're ill,

    信任來家裡修電路的電工,

  • not to mention the other drivers on the road,

    信任我們生病時治療我們的醫生,

  • and everyone knows that they are crazy.

    更不用說信任路上的其他駕駛人,

  • And yet, we have to trust them

    人人都知道他們是很瘋狂的。

  • to do the right thing.

    但,我們得要信任他們,

  • And the thing is that the more our societies grow,

    信任他們會做對的事。

  • the more important trust becomes

    重點是,我們的社會越是成長,

  • and the harder it is to build.

    信任就變得越重要,

  • And that is a paradox of modern societies.

    但也越難去建立信任。

  • And this is especially true

    那就是現代社會的矛盾。

  • when technology changes the way that we interact.

    當科技改變了我們互動的方式時,

  • Of course, to some degree, technology can help us

    這點就更是重要。

  • to build trust in one another with ratings systems and other systems

    當然,某種程度上, 科技可以協助我們,

  • that enable the sharing economy.

    用實現共享經濟的 評分系統和其它系統

  • But technology also creates completely new challenges

    來建立彼此的信任。

  • when they ask us not to trust in other people

    但科技也創造出全新的挑戰,

  • but to trust in algorithms and computers.

    科技要求我們不要信任其他人,

  • Of course, we all see and share and appreciate

    而要信任演算法和電腦。

  • all the good that new technology can do us.

    當然,我們都能看見、共享、感激

  • It's a lot of good.

    新科技帶給我們的所有好處。

  • Autonomous cars can give people with disabilities new independence.

    好處有很多。

  • It can save us all time,

    自動駕駛汽車能讓殘疾者 有新的獨立性。

  • and it can make a much, much better use of resources.

    科技能幫我們省下時間,

  • Algorithms that rely on crunching enormous amounts of data

    科技能把資源做更好更多的利用。

  • can enable our doctors to give us a much better treatment,

    用來分析大量資料的演算法

  • and many other things.

    讓我們的醫生能夠 給予我們更好的治療,

  • But no one is going to hand over their medical data

    還有很多其它的好處。

  • or step into a car that's driven by an algorithm

    但沒有人會把他們的 醫療資料交出來,

  • unless they trust the companies that they are dealing with.

    也沒有人會坐上一台 由演算法來駕駛的汽車,

  • And that trust isn't always there.

    除非他們信任與 他們打交道的公司。

  • Today, for example, less than a quarter of Europeans

    但那種信任並不是一直都存在的。

  • trust online businesses to protect their personal information.

    比如,現今,不到四分之一的歐洲人

  • But what if people knew

    信任線上企業會 保護他們的個人資訊。

  • that they could rely on technology companies

    但如果人們知道

  • to treat them fairly?

    他們能夠信賴科技公司

  • What if they knew that those companies

    會公平對待他們呢?

  • respond to competition by trying to do better,

    如果他們知道那些公司

  • by trying to serve consumers better,

    面對競爭的因應方式 是把產品做得更好、

  • not by using their power

    提供消費者更好的服務,

  • to shut out competitors,

    而不是用它們的權力

  • say, by pushing their services

    來阻擋競爭者,

  • far, far down the list of search results

    比如,把它們的服務

  • and promoting themselves?

    推到搜尋結果列表的最最最下端,

  • What if they knew that compliance with the rules

    然後只促銷它們自己的?

  • was built into the algorithms by design,

    如果他們知道, 在設計這些演算法的時候

  • that the algorithm had to go to competition rules school

    就有把對於這些規則 的遵循給內建進去,

  • before they were ever allowed to work,

    讓那些演算法必須要先 進入競爭規則學校學習,

  • that those algorithms were designed

    然後才可以被允許開始運作,

  • in a way that meant that they couldn't collude,

    且這些演算法被設計成

  • that they couldn't form their own little cartel

    沒有辦法共謀,

  • in the black box they're working in?

    讓它們無法在它們運作的黑盒子中形成

  • Together with regulation,

    小型的聯合壟斷行為,那會如何?

  • competition rules can do that.

    加上了規範,

  • They can help us to make sure

    競爭規則就能做到那樣。

  • that new technology treats people fairly

    它們能協助我們確保

  • and that everyone can compete on a level playing field.

    新科技會公平待人,

  • And that can help us build the trust

    讓每個人都可以在 市場上公平競爭。

  • that we need for real innovation

    那就能協助我們建立信任,

  • to flourish

    我們需要信任才能做真正的創新,

  • and for societies to develop for citizens.

    才能興旺繁榮,

  • Because trust cannot be imposed.

    社會才能進步、人民才能受惠。

  • It has to be earned.

    因為信任不是能夠強加於人的。

  • Since the very first days of the European Union,

    信任是掙來的。

  • 60 years ago,

    自從歐盟的最初時期,

  • our competition rules have helped

    六十年前,

  • to build that trust.

    我們的競爭規則一直在協助

  • A lot of things have changed.

    建立那樣的信任。

  • It's hard to say what those six representatives

    很多事物都改變了。

  • would have made of a smartphone.

    很難說那六位代表

  • But in today's world,

    會怎麼看待智慧型手機。

  • as well as in their world,

    但在現今的世界上,

  • competition makes the market work for everyone.

    以及在他們的世界上,

  • And that is why I am convinced

    市場因為競爭讓所有人受益。

  • that real and fair competition

    這就是為什麼我深信,

  • has a vital role to play

    真正的、公平的競爭

  • in building the trust we need

    扮演著關鍵的角色,

  • to get the best of our societies,

    它能協助建立我們需要的信任,

  • and that starts with enforcing our rules,

    來讓我們的社會呈現最好的一面,

  • actually just to make the market work for everyone.

    而這一切會從強力執行 我們的規則開始,

  • Thank you.

    讓市場能為每個人服務。

  • (Applause)

    謝謝。

  • Bruno Giussani: Thank you.

    (掌聲)

  • Thank you, Commissioner.

    布魯諾吉尤薩尼:謝謝你。

  • Margrethe Vestager: It was a pleasure.

    謝謝你,委員長。

  • BG: I want to ask you two questions.

    瑪格蕾莎維絲塔格:是我的榮幸。

  • The first one is about data, because I have the impression

    布魯諾:我有兩個問題想請教。

  • that technology and data are changing the way competition takes place

    第一個問題與資料有關, 因為我的印象是

  • and the way competition regulation is designed and enforced.

    科技和資料會改變競爭的方式

  • Can you maybe comment on that?

    也會改變競爭的設計與執行的方式。

  • MV: Well, yes, it is definitely challenging us,

    你能否對此發表意見?

  • because we both have to sharpen our tools

    瑪格蕾莎:是的, 它的確在挑戰著我們,

  • but also to develop new tools.

    因為我們得要磨礪我們的工具,

  • When we were going through the Google responses

    也要開發新的工具。

  • to our statement of objection,

    當我們去探究 Google 對我們提出的異議

  • we were going through 5.2 terabytes of data.

    所做的回應,

  • It's quite a lot.

    我們面對的是 5.2TB 的資料量。

  • So we had to set up new systems.

    這數量很驚人。

  • We had to figure out how to do this,

    所以我們得要建立新的系統。

  • because you cannot work the way you did just a few years ago.

    我們得要想出如何做,

  • So we are definitely sharpening up our working methods.

    因為幾年前的方法已經行不通了。

  • The other thing is that we try to distinguish

    所以我們肯定得 精進我們的作業方法。

  • between different kinds of data,

    另外一件事是,我們嘗試著

  • because some data is extremely valuable

    區別出不同類型的資料,

  • and they will form, like, a barrier to entry in a market.

    因為有些資料是極度珍貴的,

  • Other things you can just -- it loses its value tomorrow.

    而它們會形成進入市場的障礙。

  • So we try to make sure

    其它事情你可以直接…… 它明天就失去價值了。

  • that we never, ever underestimate the fact

    所以我們試圖要確保

  • that data works as a currency in the market

    我們永遠不會低估資料在市場中

  • and as an asset that can be a real barrier for competition.

    以一種貨幣形式來運作的事實,

  • BG: Google. You fined them 2.8 billion euros a few months ago.

    且資料也是種會 真正阻礙競爭的資產。

  • MV: No, that was dollars. It's not so strong these days.

    布魯諾:幾個月前, 你們對 Google 開罰 28 億歐元。

  • BG: Ah, well, depends on the --

    瑪格蕾莎:不,是美元。 現在它已經不那麼強勢了。

  • (Laughter)

    布魯諾:啊,嗯,那就要看…

  • Google appealed the case. The case is going to court.

    (笑聲)

  • It will last a while.

    Google 對這案子提出上訴, 接下來會上法庭。

  • Earlier, last year, you asked Apple to pay 13 billion in back taxes,

    它會持續一段時間。

  • and you have also investigated other companies,

    先前,去年,你要求蘋果 補繳 130 億元的稅款,

  • including European and Russian companies,

    你也調查了其它公司,

  • not only American companies, by far.

    包括歐洲和俄國公司,

  • Yet the investigations against the American companies

    顯然不只是美國公司。

  • are the ones that have attracted the most attention

    但,針對美國公司的調查

  • and they have also attracted some accusations.

    是最吸引注意力的調查,

  • You have been accused, essentially, of protectionism, of jealousy,

    也是吸引最多控訴的調查。

  • or using legislation to hit back at American companies

    你曾被指控,基本上, 是個保護主義者、善妒忌、

  • that have conquered European markets.

    或是立法來打擊那些

  • "The Economist" just this week on the front page writes,

    征服歐洲市場的美國公司。

  • "Vestager Versus The Valley."

    《經濟人》這週的頭版寫著:

  • How do you react to that?

    「維絲塔格摃上矽谷」。

  • MV: Well, first of all, I take it very seriously,

    妳的回應是什麼?

  • because bias has no room in law enforcement.

    瑪格蕾莎:首先, 我很嚴肅看待此事,

  • We have to prove our cases with the evidence and the facts

    因為在執法上是不容許偏見的。

  • and the jurisprudence

    我們必須要用證據、事實、法庭判例

  • in order also to present it to the courts.

    來證明我們的案件,

  • The second thing is that Europe is open for business,

    才能夠在法庭上提出來。

  • but not for tax evasion.

    第二點,歐洲是 開放給大家做生意的,

  • (Applause)

    但不是給大家逃稅用的。

  • The thing is that we are changing,

    (掌聲)

  • and for instance, when I ask my daughters --

    重點是,我們在改變,

  • they use Google as well --

    比如,當我問我的女兒們──

  • "Why do you do that?"

    她們也用 Google──

  • They say, "Well, because it works. It's a very good product."

    「妳們為什麼要用 Google ?」

  • They would never, ever, come up with the answer,

    她們說:「因為它好用。 它是很好的產品。」

  • "It's because it's a US product."

    她們永遠不會回答說:

  • It's just because it works.

    「因為它是美國產品。」

  • And that is of course how it should be.

    只是因為它好用。

  • But just the same, it is important that someone is looking after to say,

    當然,也應該要這樣才對。

  • "Well, we congratulate you

    但,同樣重要的是, 會有監管的人說:

  • while you grow and grow and grow,

    「嗯,我們恭喜你,

  • but congratulation stops

    恭喜你不斷成長再成長。

  • if we find that you're misusing your position

    但我們會停止恭喜,

  • to harm competitors so that they cannot serve consumers."

    如果發現了你濫用優勢

  • BG: It will be a fascinating case to follow.

    去傷害競爭者,

  • Thank you for coming to TED.

    讓他們無法服務消費者。」

  • MV: It was a pleasure. Thanks a lot.

    布魯諾:這個案件很值得追蹤後續。

  • (Applause)

    謝謝你來 TED。

Let's go back to 1957.

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: 易帆 余

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TED】Margrethe Vestager:企業壟斷的新時代(The new age of corporate monopolies | Margrethe Vestager)。 (【TED】Margrethe Vestager: The new age of corporate monopolies (The new age of corporate monopolies | Margrethe Vestager))

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