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  • Stephanie Busari: President Ameenah, thank you for joining us.

    譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Aidan Pang

  • Even as TED speakers go, you're something of an overachiever.

    史帝芬妮布莎莉(以下簡稱「史」) :雅米娜總統,謝謝你加入我們。

  • Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: (Laughs)

    就算以 TED 的講者來說, 你也算是個高成就者。

  • SB: You have a PhD in organic chemistry,

    雅米娜古瑞柏法金 (以下簡稱「雅」):(笑聲)

  • you were vice chancellor of the University of Mauritius,

    史:你擁有有機化學的博士學位,

  • a successful entrepreneur,

    你是模里西斯大學的副校長,

  • you've won numerous awards for your work in science

    一名成功的企業家,

  • and you're the first Muslim female head of state in Africa.

    你的科學研究得過多個獎項,

  • (Applause)

    且你是非洲國家中 第一位女性穆斯林領袖。

  • And of course, you're no stranger to the TEDGlobal stage;

    (掌聲)

  • you gave a talk in 2014.

    當然你對 TEDGlobal 舞台並不陌生;

  • Did you have any political ambitions at that time?

    2014 年你來演講過。

  • How did you go from academic to president?

    那時你有任何政治野心嗎?

  • AGF: OK, thanks, Stephanie.

    你是怎麼從學者變成總統的?

  • First of all, I'd like to thank TED

    雅:好,謝謝,史帝芬妮。

  • for having given me the opportunity to be here today.

    首先,我要謝謝 TED,

  • And I would also like to thank the government of Tanzania

    給我機會讓我今天能在這裡。

  • and the president for the welcome.

    我也想謝謝坦尚尼亞的政府

  • And also, I'd like to thank the contribution of our consul,

    以及總統給我的歡迎。

  • Mr. Rizvi, who's here,

    我也要謝謝我們的領事 雷茲維先生的貢獻,

  • has been very supportive for all our stay here.

    他也在現場,

  • Now, to answer your question,

    他很支持我們在此停留。

  • did I have any ambitions in politics?

    對於你剛才的問題,

  • The straight answer is no.

    我之前有任何對政治的野心嗎?

  • I did not choose the world of politics;

    直接的答案是,沒有。

  • the world of politics chose me.

    我並沒有選擇政治世界;

  • So here I am.

    政治世界選擇了我。

  • (Applause)

    所以,我就在這裡了。

  • SB: So, was there ever anything in your journey

    (掌聲)

  • that ever made you think

    史:那麼,在你的旅程中,

  • that one day you would become president of your country?

    有沒有什麼會讓你想到

  • Did you ever imagine that?

    有一天你會成為你國家的總統?

  • AGF: Absolutely not.

    你可曾想像過?

  • I think the journey started immediately after TED, actually.

    雅:完全沒有。

  • When I went back, this journalist called me and said,

    我想,這段旅程其實是在 TED 之後就立即開始了。

  • "You know, your name has been cited for the president of the republic,"

    我回去之後,有個記者 打電話給我,並說:

  • I said, "Ma'am, you must be mistaken,

    「你知道嗎,在談到共和國總統時, 你的名字被提及了。」

  • because I have no ambition whatsoever."

    我說:「女士,你一定搞錯了,

  • She said, "No, it's serious.

    因為我一點野心也沒有。」

  • Can you come and tell me this in the form of a declaration?

    她說:「不,我是認真的。

  • So, OK, you'll come?"

    你能不能來一趟, 並用聲明的方式告訴我此事?

  • So, of course, as good journalists go,

    所以,好,你會來吧?」

  • the next day I see my TED picture

    所以,當然,就好記者而言,

  • and, with my name, Ameenah Gurib-Fakim,

    隔天,我看到我的 TED 照片,

  • "For president?"

    加上我的名字,雅米娜古瑞柏法金,

  • A very small interrogation mark --

    「競選總統?」

  • and people don't see the interrogation mark,

    那個問號非常小,

  • they just see my name and they see my picture.

    而人們沒有看到那個問號,

  • And that was a sounding board.

    他們只看到我的名字、我的照片。

  • And again, as you have just said,

    以及這是一個宣傳招數。

  • it was a very interesting scenario

    同樣的,如你剛說的,

  • because it was a scenario where they wanted to have somebody

    那是個非常有趣的局面,

  • who was credible,

    因為在這個局面中,他們想要有個

  • had this political neutrality

    可信的人,

  • and at the same time, was for a minority

    有政治中立性,

  • because Islam is a minority religion in Mauritius,

    同時,又是為了弱勢,

  • because in Mauritius, we stratify people's origins

    因為伊斯蘭在模里西斯是弱勢宗教,

  • by virtue of their religious belief.

    因為在模里西斯, 我們是用人們的宗教信仰

  • And -- I was a woman.

    來將他們的出身做分層。

  • So this made it all very interesting.

    而且我是女性。

  • So there we go, and this whole campaign started,

    所以,這讓局面非常有趣。

  • and then people said, "Why not?"

    所以,就這樣, 整個競選活動就開始了,

  • Now, this is very important to note, Stephanie,

    人們說:「為什麼不?」

  • because normally, the president is elected after the election.

    史帝芬妮,這點是很重要的,

  • And here we had a scenario

    因為,一般來說, 總統是在選舉之後才選出。

  • where the name of the president was flagged before the election process,

    而這裡,我們的局面是,

  • during the campaign.

    在選舉過程之前,在競選 活動中,就有總統的名字

  • So when people voted, they knew that at some point,

    被搖旗吶喊。

  • they would have this Muslim woman president.

    所以當人民在投票時,他們知道,

  • SB: Does it feel significant to you as a woman

    在某個時點,他們會 有個穆斯林女總統。

  • to be the first female president of your country?

    史:身為女性,你覺得成為

  • AGF: It's important for many reasons.

    你的國家的第一位 女總統是很重要的嗎?

  • I think, obviously, you just mentioned the terrible statistics

    雅:很重要,理由有好幾個。

  • of two female presidents in the whole of Africa.

    很明顯,你剛剛提到 很糟糕的統計數字,

  • But more importantly,

    整個非洲只有兩位女性總統。

  • I think it's important also coming from the background I come from --

    但,更重要的,

  • by background I mean not ethnic, but more academic and entrepreneurial --

    我認為來自什麼背景也很重要。

  • to be there,

    我說的背景並不是指種族背景, 而是指學術和企業背景。

  • to be that role model for that little girl growing in my village

    在那裡,

  • to say, "Yes, it's possible."

    做為我村落裡成長中女孩的典範,

  • It's possible.

    說:「是,是有可能的。」

  • (Applause)

    是有可能的。

  • It's also important, Stephanie,

    (掌聲)

  • while I talk about diversity --

    史帝芬妮,我談到的

  • diversity in the widest sense of the word.

    多樣性也很重要。

  • We've seen that whenever there was diversity,

    用這個字最廣義的定義。

  • whenever there was openness,

    我們看到,有多樣性存在的時候,

  • whenever there was dialogue,

    有開放性存在的時候,

  • this was the time when societies have been most productive.

    有對話存在的時候,

  • When we talk about the Arab Golden Age,

    就是社會最有生產力的時候。

  • we cannot not think of Ibn Sina,

    當我們談到伊斯蘭黃金時代,

  • al-Haytham,

    我們不能不想到伊本西那、

  • Averroes,

    海什木、

  • Maimonides.

    伊本魯世德、

  • This was a time when cultures, religions --

    邁蒙尼德。

  • they were talking to each other.

    在這個時代,文化、區域

  • They were at peace with each other.

    在彼此交談,

  • And this was a time when they were highly productive.

    和平共存。

  • So I would say: bring down these walls.

    在這個時代,它們的生產力非常高。

  • SB: Absolutely, absolutely.

    所以我會說:推倒這些牆。

  • (Applause)

    史:絕對是,絕對是。

  • AGF: Virtual or otherwise.

    (掌聲)

  • SB: Let's also talk about another conflict area

    雅:不論實質或虛擬的牆。

  • which you straddle quite interestingly.

    史:咱們也來談談另一個衝突領域,

  • As a woman of faith and also a scientist,

    你也以很有意思的方式跨立的領域。

  • you know, faith and science seem to be at loggerheads.

    身為有信仰的女人以及科學家,

  • It wasn't always so,

    你知道的,信仰和科學 似乎是在相爭的。

  • but I'm interested to get your thoughts on how you reconcile both

    不見得總是如此,

  • and how they coexist for you personally.

    但我想了解你的想法, 你如何調解兩者、

  • AGF: They're not mutually exclusive.

    對你個人而言兩者如何共存?

  • I mean, if you're a scientist,

    雅:它們並非相斥的。

  • you tend to really look at the perfection of the human body,

    我的意思是,如果你是科學家,

  • the way it functions.

    你傾向會去看人類身體的完美,

  • If you look at nature as a whole.

    看它怎麼運作。

  • I'm still amazed at the perfection

    如果你去看整個大自然。

  • with which the entire ecosystem functions together.

    我還是會對那完美感到驚訝,

  • However, to the purists, to those who are of faith,

    整個生態系統一起運作的那種完美。

  • they will tell you, "Yes, there has been evolution."

    然而,對純粹主義者, 對那些有信仰的人而言,

  • Even the Pope has agreed that evolution exists.

    他們會告訴你: 「是的,有發生過演化。」

  • But there's always the question: What came first?

    即使教皇也同意演化是存在的。

  • What came before this?

    但總是會有這個問題:什麼先發生?

  • When we talk about all the various strata of evolution,

    在這之前是什麼?

  • we'll always be asking the question,

    當我們談到演化的所有各層時,

  • there must be something before.

    總會問這個問題,

  • So I'm of the opinion that yes,

    之前一定還有什麼。

  • there is this great spiritual force which is guiding the process,

    我的意見是,是的,

  • and things like this don't happen by chance.

    的確有偉大的靈性力量 在引導整個過程,

  • Now, whether you call it religiosity,

    像這樣的事物不會偶然發生。

  • whether you call this great spirit by any name --

    不論你是否稱之為篤信宗教,

  • Brahma, Allah, the Holy Trinity --

    不論你用任何名稱 來稱呼這個偉大的靈性──

  • you name it --

    梵天、阿拉、三位一體,

  • but I still think that these two are not mutually exclusive.

    任何你想得到的──

  • They can still coexist with each other.

    我仍然認為,這兩者是不相斥的。

  • SB: So let's move to one of your passions -- science.

    它們仍然能彼此共存。

  • You've made no secret of that.

    史:咱們接著來談你熱衷的「科學」。

  • And you've always been passionate about science.

    你完全不保密,

  • I read that when you were a very young girl,

    你一直都對科學很有熱忱。

  • you went to a career guidance counselor

    我讀到,當你還是個小女孩時,

  • and told them you wanted to become a chemist,

    你去找一個職涯指導顧問,

  • and they said, "No, it's for boys.

    告訴他們你想要當化學家,

  • Boys do science."

    他們說:「不行,那是男生做的。

  • Did that make you even more determined to study science

    男生才做科學。」

  • and to succeed in that field?

    那是否讓你更堅決要研讀科學,

  • How did you respond to that?

    並在那個領域中成功?

  • AGF: Well, to begin with,

    你對那件事的反應是什麼?

  • I must say, before I came to that career guidance officer,

    雅:嗯,首先,

  • I had great teachers who motivated.

    我必須說,我去找 那位職涯指導員之前,

  • And this is something I would like to draw attention to again,

    我有過很棒的老師, 他們一直激勵著我。

  • to our education system.

    我想要把注意力再次拉到這裡,

  • We have to do away with this rote learning.

    我們的教育體制。

  • We have to ensure that we drive this curiosity in the child,

    我們得要停止死記硬背的學習。

  • and they need to be curious.

    我們得要確保我們能 驅動孩童的好奇心,

  • And if we want to move along the line for them to become great scientists,

    他們必須要有好奇心。

  • they need to become more and more curious in everything they do.

    如果我們想要在這個過程中 讓他們能變成偉大的科學家,

  • So every time -- exactly -- I went to see the careers guidance,

    他們必須要對他們 所做的一切都更好奇。

  • he looked at me and said, "What do you want to do?"

    所以每一次我去找職涯指導員時,

  • I said, "I want to study chemistry."

    他會看著我然後說: 「你想要做什麼?」

  • "Well, you shouldn't study chemistry because this is for boys.

    我說:「我想讀化學。」

  • And the next thing, when you come back, there'll be no job for you."

    「嗯,你不該讀化學, 因為那是男生讀的。

  • So I went back home,

    接下來,當你回來時, 就沒有給你做的工作了。」

  • and I had a great cheerleader at home who happens to be my father.

    所以我返回家,

  • He said, "What do you want to do?" and asked, "What did he say?"

    我家裡有個很棒的 支持者,就是我老爸。

  • I said, "This is what he said ..." He said, "What are you going to do?"

    他對我說:「你想要做什麼?」 並問:「他說什麼?」

  • I said, "I'm going to do chemistry."

    我說:「這就是他說的…」 他說:「你打算怎麼做?」

  • So there I was.

    我說:「我要做化學。」

  • And one thing I will say: one must always follow your heart.

    所以我就去了。

  • And my heart was always in chemistry.

    我要說一件事: 你必須要跟著你的心走。

  • I did what I was passionate about,

    我的心一直在化學。

  • and I thought at some point that I had developed this thinking

    我做了我熱愛的事,

  • that if you're passionate about what you do,

    在某個時點,我發展出了這個想法:

  • you will not have to work a single day in your life,

    如果你熱愛你所做的事,

  • until I realized it was Confucius who said that.

    你人生當中的每一天都不需要工作,

  • (Laughter)

    後來我才知道這是孔子說的。

  • SB: So do you feel a responsibility, as someone in your position,

    (笑聲)

  • to encourage young girls, especially on this continent,

    史:坐在這個職位上, 你是否感到有責任

  • to study STEM subjects?

    要去鼓勵年輕女孩, 特別是在這塊大陸上,

  • Is that something that you actively work --

    鼓勵她們研讀科學、技術、 工程、數學這類的科目?

  • AGF: You know, over the past two days, Stephanie,

    你是否會主動去努力做像這樣的事?

  • we've been hearing a lot of conversation

    雅:在過去兩天,史帝芬妮,

  • about the sustainable development goals.

    我們聽到了很多關於

  • We've seen that, for example,

    永續發展目標的談話。

  • Africa must be food secure,

    比如,我們了解到

  • Africa must be energy secure,

    非洲需要有糧食保障。

  • Africa must be water secure.

    非洲需要有能源保障。

  • If we want to get to that level of development --

    非洲需要有水保障。

  • Agenda 2030 is not very far away --

    如果我們想要達到那種程度的發展,

  • if you want to have success,

    2030 議程並不是那麼遙遠,

  • we need to have an educated youth in Africa.

    如果你想要成功,

  • And again, to be very cliché:

    在非洲我們必須有受教育的年輕人。

  • you cannot achieve, you cannot win a football match,

    同樣的,這是老調了:

  • if you're going to leave 52 percent of the team outside.

    你無法達到成功,你無法贏一場足球賽,

  • It's not possible.

    如果你打算把 52% 的隊員留在場外

  • (Applause)

    是不可能贏的。

  • SB: Yes.

    (掌聲)

  • AGF: So we need highly educated,

    史:是的。

  • we need female intuition,

    雅:所以我們需要高度受教育的,

  • and we need to get them there.

    我們需要女性直覺,

  • And this is where a great deal of effort has to be done

    我們需要做到這些。

  • to actually motivate them from a very young age,

    在這裡需要花很多的功夫,

  • to tell that girl that she can do anything.

    才能在孩童很小的時候 便去激勵他們,

  • And if the message comes from her father,

    告訴那個女孩,她可以做到任何事。

  • if the message comes from her brother,

    如果這個訊息是來自她的父親,

  • it's even much more powerful.

    如果這個訊息是來自她的哥哥,

  • We need to tell her that anything is possible

    它會更強大更有力。

  • and she can do it.

    我們需要告訴她,什麼都有可能,

  • We need to build her self-confidence from a very early age,

    且她辦得到。

  • but more importantly,

    我們需要在她很小的時候 就建立她的自信,

  • we also need to actually look at the books,

    更重要的是

  • because there are too many stereotypes.

    我們也要仔細觀察書本裡的東西,

  • Last year, I was very shocked when I went to a debate on Women's Day.

    因為書中存在太多刻板的成見。

  • They had a survey,

    去年,我去一場關於婦女節 的辯論時感到十分震驚。

  • and they were asking these girls how many women inventors we have,

    他們有項調查,

  • how many women scientists do we have.

    他們去詢問女孩,我們 有多少女性發明家、

  • And you'd be shocked that hardly anyone knew

    有多少女性科學家。

  • that Ada Lovelace was there behind computer science,

    你會覺得很震驚,幾乎沒有人知道

  • that Marie Curie still remains iconic with two Nobel prizes.

    愛達·勒芙蕾絲 是電腦科學領域的先驅,

  • So there's a lot of homework to do to actually make --

    居禮夫人是贏得 兩項諾貝爾獎的指標人物。

  • to remove all these gender biases at a very young age;

    還有很多功課要做,才能真的讓──

  • instill that confidence in that girl;

    才能在非常小的年紀 就將這些性別偏見除去;

  • to tell her that she can do as well if not better than her brother.

    讓那個小女孩能夠有信心;

  • SB: Yes.

    告訴她,她可以做得 和她哥哥一樣好,甚至更好。

  • (Applause)

    史:是的。

  • Thank you.

    (掌聲)

  • So, let's move on to an area that I know you've been very active in,

    謝謝。

  • which is the issue of biodiversity.

    咱們再接著談下一個領域, 我知道你在這個領域一直很活躍,

  • You've been quite clear that this is an area that Africa must embrace.

    也就是關於生物多樣性的議題。

  • We have an abundance of rich herbal traditions and plants

    你非常清楚知道, 非洲必須要擁抱這個領域。

  • that could be developed into a big pharmaceutical industry.

    我們有很豐富的草藥傳統和植物,

  • Can you tell us a little bit of how you've been using your expertise

    可以發展成很大的藥品業。

  • to harness growth in this area?

    你能否和我們談談, 你過去如何在這個領域中

  • AGF: Thank you.

    使用你的專長來幫助成長?

  • Yesterday, I was listening to one of the talks;

    雅:謝謝。

  • it was the talk about the need for Africa to turn into a knowledge economy.

    昨天,我在聽其中一場演說;

  • Africa has got very rich traditions.

    那場演說是關於非洲需要 轉變成為一個知識經濟體。

  • Sub-Saharan Africa, southern Africa,

    非洲有非常豐富的傳統。

  • has got over 5,000 medicinal plant species,

    撒哈拉以南非洲,非洲南部,

  • not harnessed.

    有超過五千種的醫療用植物品種

  • And, in fact, at the TED talk I gave in 2014,

    都還沒被利用。

  • I came out with one sentence:

    事實上,在 2014 年 我來 TED 做的演說中,

  • "Biodiversity underpins life on earth."

    我說出了一句話:

  • And if we don't look after this biodiversity,

    「生物多樣性加強了 地球上之生命的基礎。」

  • if we don't protect it,

    如果我們不好好照顧這生物多樣性,

  • if we don't actually harness it in the right way,

    如果我們不保護它,

  • we are threatening our own livelihoods on this planet.

    如果我們不用正確的方式來利用它,

  • When we talk about the contribution from countries of the north

    我們就會威脅到我們 自己在地球上的生計。

  • to the Green Fund for the protection of our planet,

    我們談到北方國家對於綠色氣候基金

  • it is not charity.

    做出貢獻,來保護我們的星球,