Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

  • This year, Germany is celebrating

    譯者: Jiayi Lu 審譯者: Adrienne Lin

  • the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution

    這一年,德國正在慶祝

  • in East Germany.

    前東德二十五週年

  • In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,

    和平革命紀念日。

  • the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,

    1989 年,共產主義政權垮台、

  • the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,

    柏林圍牆倒塌,並且在一年後,

  • in the East was unified

    東邊的德意志民主共和國

  • with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West

    簡稱GDR

  • to found today's Germany.

    和西邊的德意志聯邦共和國統一

  • Among many other things, Germany inherited

    成為今日的德國。

  • the archives of the East German secret police,

    最重要的是,

  • known as the Stasi.

    德國承接前東德秘密警察的檔案,

  • Only two years after its dissolution,

    稱為史塔西(即國家安全部)。

  • its documents were opened to the public,

    僅僅在前東德政權崩解二年後,

  • and historians such as me started

    它的文件檔案就被公諸於世,

  • to study these documents

    而跟我一樣的歷史學家們

  • to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state

    就開始研究這些文件,

  • functioned.

    想了解前東德的監控機制

  • Perhaps you have watched the movie

    如何運作。

  • "The Lives of Others."

    也許你已經看過那部電影

  • This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,

    《竊聽風暴》。

  • and as we live in an age where words

    這部電影讓史塔西名揚全球。

  • such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"

    生長在一個

  • are on the front pages of newspapers,

    「監視」或「竊聽」等字眼

  • I would like to speak about how the Stasi

    常出現在報紙頭條的年代,

  • really worked.

    我很樂意分享史塔西

  • At the beginning, let's have a short look

    實際上是如何運作的。

  • at the history of the Stasi,

    首先,我們先簡單地回顧

  • because it's really important for understanding

    史塔西的歷史,

  • its self-conception.

    因為這很重要,有助於我們了解

  • Its origins are located in Russia.

    它所代表的意義。

  • In 1917, the Russian Communists founded

    史塔西首先發源於俄羅斯。

  • the Emergency Commission for Combating

    1917 年,俄羅斯的共產主義者成立了

  • Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,

    全俄肅清反革命

  • shortly Cheka.

    及怠工非常委員會,

  • It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.

    簡稱為契卡。

  • The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists

    由費利克斯·捷爾任斯基領導。

  • to establish their regime by terrorizing the population

    作為共產黨建立暴權的手段,

  • and executing their enemies.

    在人們身上施與恐怖統治,

  • It evolved later into the well-known KGB.

    對敵人處以死刑,

  • The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.

    後來演變為眾所皆知的 KGB (蘇聯國家安全委員會)。

  • They called themselves Chekists,

    契卡是史塔西特工崇拜的委員會,

  • and even the emblem was very similar,

    他們稱呼自己是契卡人,

  • as you can see here.

    甚至你可以看到

  • In fact, the secret police of Russia

    他們的標織非常相似。

  • was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.

    事實上,這些俄羅斯秘密警察

  • When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,

    就是主導創立史塔西的關鍵。

  • it immediately expanded there,

    1945 年,當蘇聯紅軍佔領東德時

  • and soon it started to train the German Communists

    紅軍勢力立即擴展到那裡,

  • to build up their own secret police.

    很快地對德國共產黨展開訓練

  • By the way, in this hall where we are now,

    建立他們專屬的秘密警察。

  • the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.

    順道一提,我們現在所在的這棟大廳,

  • Five years later, the Stasi was established,

    前東德執政黨成立於 1946 年。

  • and step by step, the dirty job of oppression

    五年後正式成立史塔西,

  • was handed over to it.

    漸漸地,這種卑鄙壓迫的工作

  • For instance, the central jail

    已轉交給史塔西。

  • for political prisoners,

    舉一個例子,

  • which was established by the Russians,

    政治犯的中央監獄,

  • was taken over by the Stasi

    是由俄羅斯成立,

  • and used until the end of Communism.

    由史塔西接管和利用

  • You see it here.

    直到共產主義末期。

  • At the beginning, every important step

    你看這裡。

  • took place under the attendance of the Russians.

    最初,每個重要的步驟

  • But the Germans are known to be very effective,

    都在蘇聯的參與下進行。

  • so the Stasi grew very quickly,

    但是德國人非常有效率,

  • and already in 1953, it had more employees

    因此史塔西成長得非常快速,

  • than the Gestapo had,

    早在 1953 年,比蓋世太保

  • the secret police of Nazi Germany.

    更多的職員,

  • The number doubled in each decade.

    即納粹德國密秘警察。

  • In 1989, more than 90,000 employees

    每十年人數增加一倍。

  • worked for the Stasi.

    1989 年,超過九萬名職員

  • This meant that one employee

    為史塔西工作。

  • was responsible for 180 inhabitants,

    意指一名職員

  • which was really unique in the world.

    負責 180 位居民,

  • At the top of this tremendous apparatus,

    在這世界上非常獨特。

  • there was one man, Erich Mielke.

    在這個巨大機制的頂端,

  • He ruled the Ministry of State Security

    有一個男人名叫埃里希·梅爾克。

  • for more than 30 years.

    他掌控了國家安全局

  • He was a scrupulous functionary

    超過 30 年的時間。

  • in his past, he killed two policemen

    他是一位一絲不苟,小心謹慎的黨員,

  • not far away from here

    他過去曾殺過兩名警察,

  • who in fact personalized the Stasi.

    就在距離這裡不遠的地方,

  • But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?

    也是他把史塔西擬人化。

  • Foremost, it was its enormous power,

    但是史塔西特殊的地方在哪裡?

  • because it united different functions

    首先,是它本身巨大的權力,

  • in one organization.

    因為它以一個組織

  • First of all, the Stasi

    結合不同的功能。

  • was an intelligence service.

    第一,

  • It used all the imaginable instruments

    史塔西是個情報機構。

  • for getting information secretly,

    它利用所有可想像的工具

  • such as informers, or tapping phones,

    秘密地收集資訊,

  • as you can see it on the picture here.

    例如告密者,或竊聽電話者,

  • And it was not only active in East Germany,

    你可以在這張照片上看到。

  • but all over the world.

    這不止活躍於東德,

  • Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.

    而是全世界。

  • It could stop people on the street

    第二,史塔西是種秘密警察。

  • and arrest them in its own prisons.

    它可以阻止在街上的人民

  • Thirdly, the Stasi worked

    將他們逮捕到自建的監獄。

  • as a kind of public prosecutor.

    第三,史塔西的工作

  • It had the right to open preliminary investigations

    是扮演一種檢察官角色。

  • and to interrogate people officially.

    它有權利展開初步調查

  • Last but not least,

    並正式質問人民。

  • the Stasi had its own armed forces.

    最後一點,

  • More than 11,000 soldiers were serving

    史塔西有自己的軍事力量。

  • in its so-called Guards Regiment.

    超過一萬一千名軍人

  • It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.

    服務著這個所謂的警察團,

  • Due to this concentration of power,

    旨在打擊示威遊行和暴動。

  • the Stasi was called a state in the state.

    由於權力集中,

  • But let's look in more and more detail

    史塔西稱為國家中的國家。

  • at the tools of the Stasi.

    但是讓我們來看看更多

  • Please keep in mind that at that time

    史塔西運用工具的細節。

  • the web and smartphones were not yet invented.

    請記得在那個年代

  • Of course, the Stasi used all kinds

    網路和智慧型手機都還未出現。

  • of technical instruments to survey people.

    當然,史塔西利用

  • Telephones were wiretapped,

    各種電子工具調查人們。

  • including the phone of the German chancellor in the West,

    電話遭裝設竊聽器,

  • and often also the apartments.

    包括西德總理的電話,

  • Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened

    經常都是公寓遭到竊聽。

  • by these machines.

    每天有九萬封信

  • The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people

    被這些機器拆開。

  • using specially trained agents and secret cameras

    史塔西還跟蹤窺伺成千上萬的人,

  • to document every step one took.

    利用受過特訓的間諜和秘密相機

  • In this picture, you can see me

    以記錄人們所做的每一步。

  • as a young man just in front of this building

    這張照片裡,你可以看到

  • where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.

    當時年輕的我就站在這座建築前面,

  • The Stasi even collected the smell of people.

    我們現在所處的位置 是史塔西特務拍攝我的地方。

  • It stored samples of it in closed jars

    史塔西甚至搜集人體氣味。

  • which were found after the peaceful revolution.

    密封罐收藏了人體氣味的樣本,

  • For all these tasks, highly specialized departments

    在和平革命後被找到。

  • were responsible.

    這些所有形式的任務,

  • The one which was tapping phone calls

    由高度專業化的部門負責。

  • was completely separated

    竊聽電話

  • from the one which controlled the letters,

    和掌控書信

  • for good reasons,

    由完全不一樣的特務負責,

  • because if one agent quit the Stasi,

    原因很明顯,

  • his knowledge was very small.

    因為如果有位特務退出史塔西,

  • Contrast that with Snowden, for example.

    他所知道的知識就非常狹小。

  • But the vertical specialization was also important

    舉個例子,跟史諾登事件的情況相反。

  • to prevent all kinds of empathy

    但是垂直化的專業分工合作

  • with the object of observation.

    對防止各種觀察對象的同理移情

  • The agent who shadowed me

    也很重要。

  • didn't know who I was

    監視我的特務

  • or why I was surveyed.

    並不知道我是誰

  • In fact, I smuggled forbidden books

    或為什麼我被調查。

  • from West to East Germany.

    事實上,我走私禁書

  • But what was even more typical for the Stasi

    從西方國家到前東德。

  • was the use of human intelligence,

    但是更典型的史塔西

  • people who reported secretly to the Stasi.

    是利用人類的聰明才智,

  • For the Minister of State Security,

    人們可以秘密通報史塔西。

  • these so-called unofficial employees

    對於國家安全局,

  • were the most important tools.

    這些所謂非正式職員

  • From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people

    是最重要的工具。

  • collaborated constantly with the Stasi,

    從 1975 年開始,近二十萬人民

  • more than one percent of the population.

    一直不斷地和史塔西合作,

  • And in a way, the minister was right,

    超過人口的 1%。

  • because technical instruments

    也可以這麼說,部長是對的,

  • can only register what people are doing,

    因為科技儀器

  • but agents and spies can also report

    只能記載人們做了什麼事情,

  • what people are planning to do

    但是特務和間謀可以回報

  • and what they are thinking.

    人們在計劃什麼事情

  • Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.

    及他們在想什麼。

  • The system of how to get them

    因此,史塔西招募很多線民。

  • and how to educate them, as it was called,

    招募他們

  • was very sophisticated.

    和「教育」他們的系統, 他們是這樣宣稱的,

  • The Stasi had its own university,

    非常複雜精細。

  • not far away from here,

    史塔西有自己的大學,

  • where the methods were explored

    離這裡不遠,

  • and taught to the officers.

    探討方法

  • This guideline gave a detailed description

    和教導職員。

  • of every step you have to take

    這本指南提供了詳細的

  • if you want to convince human beings

    所有你必須執行的步驟說明,

  • to betray their fellow citizens.

    要如何說服別人

  • Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured

    背叛他們的同胞。

  • to becoming one,

    有時可以說線民

  • but that's mostly not true,

    被迫成為一個背叛的人,

  • because a forced informant is a bad informant.

    但大多時候都不是真的,

  • Only someone who wants to give you the information you need

    因為一個受強迫的線民 是一個差勁的線民。

  • is an effective whistleblower.

    只有在某個人願意提供你需要的資料時

  • The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi

    才是一個有效率的告密者。

  • were political conviction and material benefits.

    人們和史塔西合作的主要理由

  • The officers also tried to create a personal bond

    是政治信念和物質利益。

  • between themselves and the informant,

    特務也試圖創立一個個人牢固的連結

  • and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows

    在他們自己與線民之間,

  • that it's not so difficult to win someone

    老實說,史塔西的例子顯示

  • in order to betray others.

    為了背叛他人

  • Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany

    要贏得一個人信任並沒有這麼難。

  • collaborated with the Stasi,

    即使是前東德一些上層的反對者

  • as for instance Ibrahimhme.

    也和史塔西合作,

  • In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution

    例如,伊布拉西·博梅。

  • and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR

    1989 年,他是和平主義的領導人

  • until it came out that he was an informant.

    他幾乎成為第一個 自由票選出來的前東德總理

  • The net of spies was really broad.

    直到後來被揭露出 他曾經是一位線民。

  • In nearly every institution,

    間諜網脈真的很廣泛。

  • even in the churches or in West Germany,

    幾乎存在於每個機構,

  • there were many of them.

    即便是教堂或西德,

  • I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,

    那裡有很多的線民。

  • "If you had sent an informant to me,

    我記得跟史塔西特務的領導人說,

  • I would surely have recognized him."

    「如果你把線民叫來給我看,

  • His answer was,

    我一定可以認出他來。」

  • "We didn't send anyone.

    他的回答是,

  • We took those who were around you."

    「我們沒有派任何線民。

  • And in fact, two of my best friends

    我們選了你周圍的人當線民。」

  • reported about me to the Stasi.

    事實是,二個我最好的朋友

  • Not only in my case, informers were very close.

    向史塔西舉發我。

  • For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident,

    不只是我的例子, 告密者的關係很緊密。

  • in her case it was her husband who spied on her.

    例如,倫斯斐德, 另一個反對者領袖,

  • A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.

    她的案例是,監視她的是她丈夫。

  • This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,

    一個有名的作家遭到他的兄弟背叛。

  • where the only apparently trustable person

    這提醒我喬治·歐威爾 寫的小說《一九八四》,

  • was an informer.

    顯然只有可信的人

  • But why did the Stasi collect all this information

    是一位告密者。

  • in its archives?

    但是為什麼史塔西要收集這些資料

  • The main purpose was to control the society.

    到它的檔案庫裡?

  • In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister

    主要目的是控制社會。

  • gave the order to find out who is who,

    幾乎每場演講,史塔西總理

  • which meant who thinks what.

    下了指令找出誰是誰,

  • He didn't want to wait until somebody

    也就是要知道誰在想什麼。

  • tried to act against the regime.

    他不想等到有人

  • He wanted to know in advance

    試圖對抗政權。

  • what people were thinking and planning.

    他想事先知道

  • The East Germans knew, of course,

    人們在想什麼和計劃什麼。

  • that they were surrounded by informers,

    當然前東德知道,

  • in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust

    他們有線民圍繞,

  • and a state of widespread fear,

    集權主義創造了猜疑

  • the most important tools to oppress people

    和一個國家普遍的恐懼,

  • in any dictatorship.

    是任何專治獨裁中

  • That's why not many East Germans tried

    欺壓人民最重要的工具。

  • to fight against the Communist regime.

    這就是為什麼沒有很多前東德人試圖

  • If yes, the Stasi often used a method

    對抗共產主義政權。

  • which was really diabolic.

    如果是這樣,史塔西經常利用

  • It was called Zersetzung,

    一個真的很殘暴方法。

  • and it's described in another guideline.

    叫作分崩離析。

  • The word is difficult to translate because it means

    另一本指南上有描述。

  • originally "biodegradation."

    用文字很難詮釋因為

  • But actually, it's a quite accurate description.

    它原本的意思是「生物分解」。

  • The goal was to destroy secretly

    但其實,這是非常準確的描述。

  • the self-confidence of people,

    目標是秘密摧毀

  • for example by damaging their reputation,

    自信的人民,

  • by organizing failures in their work,

    例如破壞他們的名譽,

  • and by destroying their personal relationships.

    在他們的工作中製造失敗,

  • Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship.

    摧毀他們個人的友誼。

  • The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.

    仔細想想,前東德 是非常的現代化專治獨裁。

  • It preferred to paralyze them,

    史塔西沒有企圖逮捕每個反對者。

  • and it could do so because

    比較傾向讓他們氣餒,

  • it had access to so much personal information

    這是可行的,因為

  • and to so many institutions.

    它獲得了大量的個人資料

  • Detaining someone was used only

    及大量的團體機構。

  • as a last resort.

    拘捕某人只用在

  • For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,

    最後的一個手段。

  • one in every district.

    為此,史塔西擁有 19 座監獄,

  • Here, the Stasi also developed

    每個州至少一個。

  • quite modern methods of detention.

    這裡,史塔西也發展

  • Normally, the interrogation officer

    相當現代化的拘捕方法。

  • didn't torture the prisoner.

    一般來說,審問員

  • Instead, he used a sophisticated system

    沒有折磨囚犯。

  • of psychological pressure

    相反的,他利用精細複雜的

  • in which strict isolation was central.

    心理壓力系統

  • Nearly no prisoner resisted

    這點是嚴密隔離的重要核心。

  • without giving a testimony.

    幾乎沒有囚犯拒絕

  • If you have the occasion,

    不願意提供證詞。

  • do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin

    如果你有這種偶然的境遇,

  • and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner

    去參觀柏林的前秘密警察監獄

  • who will explain to you how this worked.

    參加有導遊與前政治犯帶領的導覽,

  • One more question needs to be answered:

    他們會告訴你這個系統如何運作。

  • If the Stasi were so well organized,

    還一個問題需要回答:

  • why did the Communist regime collapse?

    如果史塔西組織運作得這麼好,

  • First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany

    為什麼共產政權會垮台?

  • was uncertain what to do against

    第一點,1989 年,前東德的領導

  • the growing protest of people.

    不確定該怎麼做

  • It was especially confused

    來抵擋逐漸增加的反抗人群。

  • because in the mother country of socialism,

    這點令人特別困擾,

  • the Soviet Union,

    因為在社會主義的祖國

  • a more liberal policy took place.

    蘇聯,

  • In addition, the regime was dependent

    更自由的政策產生了。

  • on the loans from the West.

    此外,政權依賴

  • Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising

    來自西方的貸款。

  • was given to the Stasi.

    所以,史塔西沒有給出

  • Secondly, in the Communist ideology,

    要求鎮壓暴動的指令

  • there's no place for criticism.

    第二,共產主義的思想,

  • Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief

    不能有批評的空間。

  • that socialism is a perfect system,

    相反的,領導層堅信

  • and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.

    社會主義是個完美的系統,

  • The consequence was

    當然史塔西已經證實。

  • that despite all the information,

    結果是

  • the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,

    僅管所有的資訊,

  • and therefore it couldn't solve them.

    政權無法分析本身真正的問題,

  • In the end, the Stasi died

    所以沒有辦法解決問題。

  • because of the structures

    最後史塔西滅亡,

  • that it was charged with protecting.

    是因為

  • The ending of the Stasi

    它所保護的結構瓦解。

  • was something tragic,

    史塔西的結束

  • because these officers

    是某種悲劇,

  • were kept busy during the peaceful revolution

    因為這些特務

  • with only one thing:

    在和平的革命期間一直都

  • to destroy the documents

    只忙著一件事:

  • they had produced during decades.

    銷毀所有文件

  • Fortunately,

    數十年間所製作的文件。

  • they had been stopped by human rights activists.

    幸好,

  • That's why today we can use the files

    人權主義者阻止了他們。

  • to get a better understanding

    這就是為什麼我們可以利用這些檔案

  • of how a surveillance state functions.

    更清楚了解

  • Thank you.

    受監視的國家如何運轉。

  • (Applause)

    謝謝

  • Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.

    (鼓掌)

  • So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions

    布魯諾·吉桑尼:非常謝謝你。

  • because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.

    胡貝圖斯,我想問你幾個問題

  • "Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.

    因為我這裡有上週發行的明鏡周刊,

  • And you just told us about my neighbor,

    「我家鄰居,國家安全局」。

  • the spies and the informant from East Germany.

    你剛才分享關於我們鄰居的事情,

  • So there is a direct link between these two stories

    來自關於前東德的間諜和線民。

  • or there isn't?

    所以這二個故事之間

  • What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?

    有沒有直接的連結關係?

  • Hubertus Knabe: I think there are

    當你看到這則故事時, 你的反應是什麼?

  • several aspects to mention.

    胡貝圖斯.克納貝:我認為

  • At first, I think there's a difference

    需要註明一下幾個觀點

  • of why you are collecting this data.

    首先,我認為有一個差異點是

  • Are you doing that for protecting your people

    我們為什麼要搜集這些資料。

  • against terrorist attacks,

    我們做那件事情 是為了保護我們的人民

  • or are you doing that for oppressing your people?

    對抗恐怖主義?

  • So that makes a fundamental difference.

    或我們做那件事情 是為了欺壓我們的人民?

  • But on the other hand,

    所以這是一個基本的差異。

  • also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused,

    但在另一方面,

  • and that is something where we really have

    在一個民主國家中, 這些工具也可能被濫用,

  • to be aware to stop that,

    這正是我們真的必須

  • and that also the intelligence services

    仔細留意的地方,

  • are respecting the rules we have.

    這也是情報服務

  • The third point, probably,

    遵守我們定下的規則。

  • we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,

    第三個觀點,也許,

  • because you can be sure that Russia and China

    我們真的可以快樂地 住在一個民主國家,

  • are doing the same,

    因為你可以確定蘇聯和中國

  • but nobody speaks about that

    在做一樣的事情,

  • because nobody could do that.

    卻沒人談論這個話題

  • (Applause)

    因為沒人敢碰觸它。

  • BG: When the story came out first,

    (掌聲)

  • last July, last year,

    布魯諾:當故事首度刊登在這份雜誌,

  • you filed a criminal complaint

    去年七月,

  • with a German tribunal. Why?

    你提出一份

  • HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned,

    與德國法庭的刑事訴訟,為什麼?

  • that I think especially in a democracy,

    胡貝圖斯:是的,我這麼做 是因為我談到的第二個觀點,

  • the rules are for everybody.

    我認為特別是在民主國家,

  • They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed

    規則是每個人共有的。

  • that any institution doesn't respect the rules.

    規則是為每個人制訂的,所以不允許

  • In the criminal code of Germany, it's written

    任何機構不遵守規則。

  • that it's not allowed to tap somebody

    德國刑法記載

  • without the permission of the judge.

    沒有經過法官的允許

  • Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany,

    不可以竊聽別人談話。

  • so if it's not respected, then I think

    幸運的是,這條規定有編入德國刑法,

  • an investigation is necessary,

    所以如果有人不遵守這條規定,

  • and it took a very long time that

    那麼我認為調查是必要的,

  • the public prosecutor of Germany started this,

    這花了很長的一段時間

  • and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,

    使德國檢察官開始進行調查,

  • and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.

    他開始著手調查只因為 安格拉·梅克爾的事件,

  • BG: That doesn't surprise me because

    不是住在德國的全體人民。

  • (Applause) —

    布魯諾:我不驚訝,因為...

  • because of the story you told.

    (鼓掌)

  • Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,

    你先前所說的已經解釋一切。

  • and I expected the Germans to react

    從外國,德國之外的視角來看,

  • much more strongly, immediately.

    我以為德國人的反應

  • And instead, the reaction really came only

    會更加強烈,更加及時。

  • when Chancellor Merkel was revealed

    但相反地,只有在梅克爾總理

  • as being wiretapped. Why so?

    被監聽事件曝光之後,

  • HK: I take it as a good sign,

    民眾才真正開始反應。為什麼?

  • because people feel secure in this democracy.

    胡貝圖斯:我認為這是一件好事,

  • They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,

    因為人們在民主法治下感到很安全。

  • and if you leave this hall after the conference,

    他們不會擔心被逮捕,

  • nobody has to be afraid that the secret police

    就像在這場談話結束後離開會場,

  • is standing out and is arresting you.

    沒有人需要擔心秘密警察

  • So that's a good sign, I think.

    站在門外準備逮捕你。

  • People are not really scared, as they could be.

    所以,我覺得這是好事。

  • But of course, I think, the institutions

    人們並不覺得活在恐懼之中。

  • are responsible to stop illegal actions

    當然,我仍然認為法令有責任

  • in Germany or wherever they happen.

    去制止非法行為,

  • BG: A personal question, and this is the last one.

    不論是在德國或其它地方。

  • There has been a debate in Germany about

    布魯諾:最後我還有一個私人問題。

  • granting asylum to Edward Snowden.

    有件事情仍然十分具有爭議性,

  • Would you be in favor or against?

    那就是究竟是否要給予 愛德華·史諾登政治庇護?

  • HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,

    你的看法怎麼樣?

  • but if you ask me,

    胡貝圖斯:嗯,這個問題很難回答。

  • and if I answer honestly,

    但如果你問我,

  • I would give him the asylum,

    我會誠實地說

  • because I think it was really brave what he did,

    我選擇給他政治庇護,

  • and he destroyed his whole life

    因為我認為他所做的事情非常勇敢,

  • and his family and everything.

    他已經毀了自己的一生,

  • So I think, for these people, we should do something,

    還有他的家庭和所有一切。

  • and especially if you see the German history,

    我認為對於這樣的人, 我們應該做些什麼。

  • where so many people had to escape

    尤其,在德國的歷史中,

  • and they asked for asylum in other countries

    你能看到很多人必須逃亡,

  • and they didn't get it,

    尋找其它國家的政治庇護,

  • so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.

    卻無法如願以償,

  • (Applause)

    所以我認為該給他政治庇護。

  • BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.

    (鼓掌)

This year, Germany is celebrating

譯者: Jiayi Lu 審譯者: Adrienne Lin

字幕與單字

單字即點即查 點擊單字可以查詢單字解釋

B1 中級 中文 美國腔 TED 東德 特務 德國 秘密 政權

【TED】Hubertus Knabe:一個監視國家的黑暗祕密(Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state)。 (【TED】Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state (Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state))

  • 36 4
    Zenn 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
影片單字