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This year, Germany is celebrating
譯者: Jiayi Lu 審譯者: Adrienne Lin
the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
這一年,德國正在慶祝
in East Germany.
前東德二十五週年
In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
和平革命紀念日。
the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
1989 年,共產主義政權垮台、
the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
柏林圍牆倒塌,並且在一年後,
in the East was unified
東邊的德意志民主共和國
with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
簡稱GDR
to found today's Germany.
和西邊的德意志聯邦共和國統一
Among many other things, Germany inherited
成為今日的德國。
the archives of the East German secret police,
最重要的是,
known as the Stasi.
德國承接前東德秘密警察的檔案,
Only two years after its dissolution,
稱為史塔西(即國家安全部)。
its documents were opened to the public,
僅僅在前東德政權崩解二年後,
and historians such as me started
它的文件檔案就被公諸於世,
to study these documents
而跟我一樣的歷史學家們
to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
就開始研究這些文件,
functioned.
想了解前東德的監控機制
Perhaps you have watched the movie
如何運作。
"The Lives of Others."
也許你已經看過那部電影
This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
《竊聽風暴》。
and as we live in an age where words
這部電影讓史塔西名揚全球。
such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
生長在一個
are on the front pages of newspapers,
「監視」或「竊聽」等字眼
I would like to speak about how the Stasi
常出現在報紙頭條的年代,
really worked.
我很樂意分享史塔西
At the beginning, let's have a short look
實際上是如何運作的。
at the history of the Stasi,
首先,我們先簡單地回顧
because it's really important for understanding
史塔西的歷史,
its self-conception.
因為這很重要,有助於我們了解
Its origins are located in Russia.
它所代表的意義。
In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
史塔西首先發源於俄羅斯。
the Emergency Commission for Combating
1917 年,俄羅斯的共產主義者成立了
Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
全俄肅清反革命
shortly Cheka.
及怠工非常委員會,
It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
簡稱為契卡。
The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
由費利克斯·捷爾任斯基領導。
to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
作為共產黨建立暴權的手段,
and executing their enemies.
在人們身上施與恐怖統治,
It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
對敵人處以死刑,
The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
後來演變為眾所皆知的 KGB (蘇聯國家安全委員會)。
They called themselves Chekists,
契卡是史塔西特工崇拜的委員會,
and even the emblem was very similar,
他們稱呼自己是契卡人,
as you can see here.
甚至你可以看到
In fact, the secret police of Russia
他們的標織非常相似。
was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
事實上,這些俄羅斯秘密警察
When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
就是主導創立史塔西的關鍵。
it immediately expanded there,
1945 年,當蘇聯紅軍佔領東德時
and soon it started to train the German Communists
紅軍勢力立即擴展到那裡,
to build up their own secret police.
很快地對德國共產黨展開訓練
By the way, in this hall where we are now,
建立他們專屬的秘密警察。
the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
順道一提,我們現在所在的這棟大廳,
Five years later, the Stasi was established,
前東德執政黨成立於 1946 年。
and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
五年後正式成立史塔西,
was handed over to it.
漸漸地,這種卑鄙壓迫的工作
For instance, the central jail
已轉交給史塔西。
for political prisoners,
舉一個例子,
which was established by the Russians,
政治犯的中央監獄,
was taken over by the Stasi
是由俄羅斯成立,
and used until the end of Communism.
由史塔西接管和利用
You see it here.
直到共產主義末期。
At the beginning, every important step
你看這裡。
took place under the attendance of the Russians.
最初,每個重要的步驟
But the Germans are known to be very effective,
都在蘇聯的參與下進行。
so the Stasi grew very quickly,
但是德國人非常有效率,
and already in 1953, it had more employees
因此史塔西成長得非常快速,
than the Gestapo had,
早在 1953 年,比蓋世太保
the secret police of Nazi Germany.
更多的職員,
The number doubled in each decade.
即納粹德國密秘警察。
In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
每十年人數增加一倍。
worked for the Stasi.
1989 年,超過九萬名職員
This meant that one employee
為史塔西工作。
was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
意指一名職員
which was really unique in the world.
負責 180 位居民,
At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
在這世界上非常獨特。
there was one man, Erich Mielke.
在這個巨大機制的頂端,
He ruled the Ministry of State Security
有一個男人名叫埃里希·梅爾克。
for more than 30 years.
他掌控了國家安全局
He was a scrupulous functionary —
超過 30 年的時間。
in his past, he killed two policemen
他是一位一絲不苟,小心謹慎的黨員,
not far away from here —
他過去曾殺過兩名警察,
who in fact personalized the Stasi.
就在距離這裡不遠的地方,
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
也是他把史塔西擬人化。
Foremost, it was its enormous power,
但是史塔西特殊的地方在哪裡?
because it united different functions
首先,是它本身巨大的權力,
in one organization.
因為它以一個組織
First of all, the Stasi
結合不同的功能。
was an intelligence service.
第一,
It used all the imaginable instruments
史塔西是個情報機構。
for getting information secretly,
它利用所有可想像的工具
such as informers, or tapping phones,
秘密地收集資訊,
as you can see it on the picture here.
例如告密者,或竊聽電話者,
And it was not only active in East Germany,
你可以在這張照片上看到。
but all over the world.
這不止活躍於東德,
Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
而是全世界。
It could stop people on the street
第二,史塔西是種秘密警察。
and arrest them in its own prisons.
它可以阻止在街上的人民
Thirdly, the Stasi worked
將他們逮捕到自建的監獄。
as a kind of public prosecutor.
第三,史塔西的工作
It had the right to open preliminary investigations
是扮演一種檢察官角色。
and to interrogate people officially.
它有權利展開初步調查
Last but not least,
並正式質問人民。
the Stasi had its own armed forces.
最後一點,
More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
史塔西有自己的軍事力量。
in its so-called Guards Regiment.
超過一萬一千名軍人
It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
服務著這個所謂的警察團,
Due to this concentration of power,
旨在打擊示威遊行和暴動。
the Stasi was called a state in the state.
由於權力集中,
But let's look in more and more detail
史塔西稱為國家中的國家。
at the tools of the Stasi.
但是讓我們來看看更多
Please keep in mind that at that time
史塔西運用工具的細節。
the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
請記得在那個年代
Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
網路和智慧型手機都還未出現。
of technical instruments to survey people.
當然,史塔西利用
Telephones were wiretapped,
各種電子工具調查人們。
including the phone of the German chancellor in the West,
電話遭裝設竊聽器,
and often also the apartments.
包括西德總理的電話,
Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
經常都是公寓遭到竊聽。
by these machines.
每天有九萬封信
The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people
被這些機器拆開。
using specially trained agents and secret cameras
史塔西還跟蹤窺伺成千上萬的人,
to document every step one took.
利用受過特訓的間諜和秘密相機
In this picture, you can see me
以記錄人們所做的每一步。
as a young man just in front of this building
這張照片裡,你可以看到
where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
當時年輕的我就站在這座建築前面,
The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
我們現在所處的位置 是史塔西特務拍攝我的地方。
It stored samples of it in closed jars
史塔西甚至搜集人體氣味。
which were found after the peaceful revolution.
密封罐收藏了人體氣味的樣本,
For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
在和平革命後被找到。
were responsible.
這些所有形式的任務,
The one which was tapping phone calls
由高度專業化的部門負責。
was completely separated
竊聽電話
from the one which controlled the letters,
和掌控書信
for good reasons,
由完全不一樣的特務負責,
because if one agent quit the Stasi,
原因很明顯,
his knowledge was very small.
因為如果有位特務退出史塔西,
Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
他所知道的知識就非常狹小。
But the vertical specialization was also important
舉個例子,跟史諾登事件的情況相反。
to prevent all kinds of empathy
但是垂直化的專業分工合作
with the object of observation.
對防止各種觀察對象的同理移情
The agent who shadowed me
也很重要。
didn't know who I was
監視我的特務
or why I was surveyed.
並不知道我是誰
In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
或為什麼我被調查。
from West to East Germany.
事實上,我走私禁書
But what was even more typical for the Stasi
從西方國家到前東德。
was the use of human intelligence,
但是更典型的史塔西
people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
是利用人類的聰明才智,
For the Minister of State Security,
人們可以秘密通報史塔西。
these so-called unofficial employees
對於國家安全局,
were the most important tools.
這些所謂非正式職員
From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
是最重要的工具。
collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
從 1975 年開始,近二十萬人民
more than one percent of the population.
一直不斷地和史塔西合作,
And in a way, the minister was right,
超過人口的 1%。
because technical instruments
也可以這麼說,部長是對的,
can only register what people are doing,
因為科技儀器
but agents and spies can also report
只能記載人們做了什麼事情,
what people are planning to do
但是特務和間謀可以回報
and what they are thinking.
人們在計劃什麼事情
Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
及他們在想什麼。
The system of how to get them
因此,史塔西招募很多線民。
and how to educate them, as it was called,
招募他們
was very sophisticated.
和「教育」他們的系統, 他們是這樣宣稱的,
The Stasi had its own university,
非常複雜精細。
not far away from here,
史塔西有自己的大學,
where the methods were explored
離這裡不遠,
and taught to the officers.
探討方法
This guideline gave a detailed description
和教導職員。
of every step you have to take
這本指南提供了詳細的
if you want to convince human beings
所有你必須執行的步驟說明,
to betray their fellow citizens.
要如何說服別人
Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
背叛他們的同胞。
to becoming one,
有時可以說線民
but that's mostly not true,
被迫成為一個背叛的人,
because a forced informant is a bad informant.
但大多時候都不是真的,
Only someone who wants to give you the information you need
因為一個受強迫的線民 是一個差勁的線民。
is an effective whistleblower.
只有在某個人願意提供你需要的資料時
The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi
才是一個有效率的告密者。
were political conviction and material benefits.
人們和史塔西合作的主要理由
The officers also tried to create a personal bond
是政治信念和物質利益。
between themselves and the informant,
特務也試圖創立一個個人牢固的連結
and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
在他們自己與線民之間,
that it's not so difficult to win someone
老實說,史塔西的例子顯示
in order to betray others.
為了背叛他人
Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
要贏得一個人信任並沒有這麼難。
collaborated with the Stasi,
即使是前東德一些上層的反對者
as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
也和史塔西合作,
In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
例如,伊布拉西·博梅。
and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR
1989 年,他是和平主義的領導人
until it came out that he was an informant.
他幾乎成為第一個 自由票選出來的前東德總理
The net of spies was really broad.
直到後來被揭露出 他曾經是一位線民。
In nearly every institution,
間諜網脈真的很廣泛。
even in the churches or in West Germany,
幾乎存在於每個機構,
there were many of them.
即便是教堂或西德,
I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
那裡有很多的線民。
"If you had sent an informant to me,
我記得跟史塔西特務的領導人說,
I would surely have recognized him."
「如果你把線民叫來給我看,
His answer was,
我一定可以認出他來。」
"We didn't send anyone.
他的回答是,
We took those who were around you."
「我們沒有派任何線民。
And in fact, two of my best friends
我們選了你周圍的人當線民。」
reported about me to the Stasi.
事實是,二個我最好的朋友
Not only in my case, informers were very close.
向史塔西舉發我。
For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident,
不只是我的例子, 告密者的關係很緊密。
in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
例如,倫斯斐德, 另一個反對者領袖,
A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
她的案例是,監視她的是她丈夫。
This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
一個有名的作家遭到他的兄弟背叛。
where the only apparently trustable person
這提醒我喬治·歐威爾 寫的小說《一九八四》,
was an informer.
顯然只有可信的人
But why did the Stasi collect all this information
是一位告密者。
in its archives?
但是為什麼史塔西要收集這些資料
The main purpose was to control the society.
到它的檔案庫裡?
In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
主要目的是控制社會。
gave the order to find out who is who,
幾乎每場演講,史塔西總理
which meant who thinks what.
下了指令找出誰是誰,
He didn't want to wait until somebody
也就是要知道誰在想什麼。
tried to act against the regime.
他不想等到有人
He wanted to know in advance
試圖對抗政權。
what people were thinking and planning.
他想事先知道
The East Germans knew, of course,
人們在想什麼和計劃什麼。
that they were surrounded by informers,
當然前東德知道,
in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
他們有線民圍繞,
and a state of widespread fear,
集權主義創造了猜疑
the most important tools to oppress people
和一個國家普遍的恐懼,
in any dictatorship.
是任何專治獨裁中
That's why not many East Germans tried
欺壓人民最重要的工具。
to fight against the Communist regime.
這就是為什麼沒有很多前東德人試圖
If yes, the Stasi often used a method
對抗共產主義政權。
which was really diabolic.
如果是這樣,史塔西經常利用
It was called Zersetzung,
一個真的很殘暴方法。
and it's described in another guideline.
叫作分崩離析。
The word is difficult to translate because it means
另一本指南上有描述。
originally "biodegradation."
用文字很難詮釋因為
But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
它原本的意思是「生物分解」。
The goal was to destroy secretly
但其實,這是非常準確的描述。
the self-confidence of people,
目標是秘密摧毀
for example by damaging their reputation,
自信的人民,
by organizing failures in their work,
例如破壞他們的名譽,
and by destroying their personal relationships.
在他們的工作中製造失敗,
Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship.
摧毀他們個人的友誼。
The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
仔細想想,前東德 是非常的現代化專治獨裁。
It preferred to paralyze them,
史塔西沒有企圖逮捕每個反對者。
and it could do so because
比較傾向讓他們氣餒,
it had access to so much personal information
這是可行的,因為
and to so many institutions.
它獲得了大量的個人資料
Detaining someone was used only
及大量的團體機構。
as a last resort.
拘捕某人只用在
For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
最後的一個手段。
one in every district.
為此,史塔西擁有 19 座監獄,
Here, the Stasi also developed
每個州至少一個。
quite modern methods of detention.
這裡,史塔西也發展
Normally, the interrogation officer
相當現代化的拘捕方法。
didn't torture the prisoner.
一般來說,審問員
Instead, he used a sophisticated system
沒有折磨囚犯。
of psychological pressure
相反的,他利用精細複雜的
in which strict isolation was central.
心理壓力系統
Nearly no prisoner resisted
這點是嚴密隔離的重要核心。
without giving a testimony.
幾乎沒有囚犯拒絕
If you have the occasion,
不願意提供證詞。
do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
如果你有這種偶然的境遇,
and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner
去參觀柏林的前秘密警察監獄
who will explain to you how this worked.
參加有導遊與前政治犯帶領的導覽,
One more question needs to be answered:
他們會告訴你這個系統如何運作。
If the Stasi were so well organized,
還一個問題需要回答:
why did the Communist regime collapse?
如果史塔西組織運作得這麼好,
First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
為什麼共產政權會垮台?
was uncertain what to do against
第一點,1989 年,前東德的領導
the growing protest of people.
不確定該怎麼做
It was especially confused
來抵擋逐漸增加的反抗人群。
because in the mother country of socialism,
這點令人特別困擾,
the Soviet Union,
因為在社會主義的祖國
a more liberal policy took place.
蘇聯,
In addition, the regime was dependent
更自由的政策產生了。
on the loans from the West.
此外,政權依賴
Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
來自西方的貸款。
was given to the Stasi.
所以,史塔西沒有給出
Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
要求鎮壓暴動的指令
there's no place for criticism.
第二,共產主義的思想,
Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
不能有批評的空間。
that socialism is a perfect system,
相反的,領導層堅信
and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
社會主義是個完美的系統,
The consequence was
當然史塔西已經證實。
that despite all the information,
結果是
the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
僅管所有的資訊,
and therefore it couldn't solve them.
政權無法分析本身真正的問題,
In the end, the Stasi died
所以沒有辦法解決問題。
because of the structures
最後史塔西滅亡,
that it was charged with protecting.
是因為
The ending of the Stasi
它所保護的結構瓦解。
was something tragic,
史塔西的結束
because these officers
是某種悲劇,
were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
因為這些特務
with only one thing:
在和平的革命期間一直都
to destroy the documents
只忙著一件事:
they had produced during decades.
銷毀所有文件
Fortunately,
數十年間所製作的文件。
they had been stopped by human rights activists.
幸好,
That's why today we can use the files
人權主義者阻止了他們。
to get a better understanding
這就是為什麼我們可以利用這些檔案
of how a surveillance state functions.
更清楚了解
Thank you.
受監視的國家如何運轉。
(Applause)
謝謝
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
(鼓掌)
So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
布魯諾·吉桑尼:非常謝謝你。
because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
胡貝圖斯,我想問你幾個問題
"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
因為我這裡有上週發行的明鏡周刊,
And you just told us about my neighbor,
「我家鄰居,國家安全局」。
the spies and the informant from East Germany.
你剛才分享關於我們鄰居的事情,
So there is a direct link between these two stories
來自關於前東德的間諜和線民。
or there isn't?
所以這二個故事之間
What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?
有沒有直接的連結關係?
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
當你看到這則故事時, 你的反應是什麼?
several aspects to mention.
胡貝圖斯.克納貝:我認為
At first, I think there's a difference
需要註明一下幾個觀點
of why you are collecting this data.
首先,我認為有一個差異點是
Are you doing that for protecting your people
我們為什麼要搜集這些資料。
against terrorist attacks,
我們做那件事情 是為了保護我們的人民
or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
對抗恐怖主義?
So that makes a fundamental difference.
或我們做那件事情 是為了欺壓我們的人民?
But on the other hand,
所以這是一個基本的差異。
also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused,
但在另一方面,
and that is something where we really have
在一個民主國家中, 這些工具也可能被濫用,
to be aware to stop that,
這正是我們真的必須
and that also the intelligence services
仔細留意的地方,
are respecting the rules we have.
這也是情報服務
The third point, probably,
遵守我們定下的規則。
we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
第三個觀點,也許,
because you can be sure that Russia and China
我們真的可以快樂地 住在一個民主國家,
are doing the same,
因為你可以確定蘇聯和中國
but nobody speaks about that
在做一樣的事情,
because nobody could do that.
卻沒人談論這個話題
(Applause)
因為沒人敢碰觸它。
BG: When the story came out first,
(掌聲)
last July, last year,
布魯諾:當故事首度刊登在這份雜誌,
you filed a criminal complaint
去年七月,
with a German tribunal. Why?
你提出一份
HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned,
與德國法庭的刑事訴訟,為什麼?
that I think especially in a democracy,
胡貝圖斯:是的,我這麼做 是因為我談到的第二個觀點,
the rules are for everybody.
我認為特別是在民主國家,
They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
規則是每個人共有的。
that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
規則是為每個人制訂的,所以不允許
In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
任何機構不遵守規則。
that it's not allowed to tap somebody
德國刑法記載
without the permission of the judge.
沒有經過法官的允許
Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany,
不可以竊聽別人談話。
so if it's not respected, then I think
幸運的是,這條規定有編入德國刑法,
an investigation is necessary,
所以如果有人不遵守這條規定,
and it took a very long time that
那麼我認為調查是必要的,
the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
這花了很長的一段時間
and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
使德國檢察官開始進行調查,
and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.
他開始著手調查只因為 安格拉·梅克爾的事件,
BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
不是住在德國的全體人民。
(Applause) —
布魯諾:我不驚訝,因為...
because of the story you told.
(鼓掌)
Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
你先前所說的已經解釋一切。
and I expected the Germans to react
從外國,德國之外的視角來看,
much more strongly, immediately.
我以為德國人的反應
And instead, the reaction really came only
會更加強烈,更加及時。
when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
但相反地,只有在梅克爾總理
as being wiretapped. Why so?
被監聽事件曝光之後,
HK: I take it as a good sign,
民眾才真正開始反應。為什麼?
because people feel secure in this democracy.
胡貝圖斯:我認為這是一件好事,
They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
因為人們在民主法治下感到很安全。
and if you leave this hall after the conference,
他們不會擔心被逮捕,
nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
就像在這場談話結束後離開會場,
is standing out and is arresting you.
沒有人需要擔心秘密警察
So that's a good sign, I think.
站在門外準備逮捕你。
People are not really scared, as they could be.
所以,我覺得這是好事。
But of course, I think, the institutions
人們並不覺得活在恐懼之中。
are responsible to stop illegal actions
當然,我仍然認為法令有責任
in Germany or wherever they happen.
去制止非法行為,
BG: A personal question, and this is the last one.
不論是在德國或其它地方。
There has been a debate in Germany about
布魯諾:最後我還有一個私人問題。
granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
有件事情仍然十分具有爭議性,
Would you be in favor or against?
那就是究竟是否要給予 愛德華·史諾登政治庇護?
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
你的看法怎麼樣?
but if you ask me,
胡貝圖斯:嗯,這個問題很難回答。
and if I answer honestly,
但如果你問我,
I would give him the asylum,
我會誠實地說
because I think it was really brave what he did,
我選擇給他政治庇護,
and he destroyed his whole life
因為我認為他所做的事情非常勇敢,
and his family and everything.
他已經毀了自己的一生,
So I think, for these people, we should do something,
還有他的家庭和所有一切。
and especially if you see the German history,
我認為對於這樣的人, 我們應該做些什麼。
where so many people had to escape
尤其,在德國的歷史中,
and they asked for asylum in other countries
你能看到很多人必須逃亡,
and they didn't get it,
尋找其它國家的政治庇護,
so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
卻無法如願以償,
(Applause)
所以我認為該給他政治庇護。
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
(鼓掌)