to talk about the evolution of a puppet horse.

亞德里恩 科勒：我們今天來

Basil Jones: But actually we're going to start this evolution

是要談論木偶馬的演化

with a hyena.

貝索 瓊斯：事實上，我們要用鬣狗

AK: The ancestor of the horse.

來開始說明

Okay, we'll do something with it.

亞德里恩 科勒：鬣狗也就是木偶戰馬的祖先

(Laughter)

好，那現在我們開始表演

Hahahaha.

（笑聲）

The hyena is the ancestor of the horse

哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈

because it was part of a production

這隻鬣狗是木偶馬的先祖

called "Faustus in Africa,"

因為他是一個叫做"非洲的浮士德"的

a Handspring Production from 1995,

製作的一部分

where it had to play draughts with Helen of Troy.

是漢斯普林公司在1995年的作品

This production was directed

用來當木馬屠城記的戲劇草稿

by South African artist and theater director,

這部作品是由一個

William Kentridge.

南非的藝術家和導演指導

So it needed a very articulate front paw.

威廉肯崔吉

But, like all puppets, it has other attributes.

這隻鬣狗需要非常靈敏的前爪

BJ: One of them is breath,

但就像所有木偶一樣，他也有其他的特性

and it kind of breathes.

貝索 瓊斯：其中之一就是呼吸

AK: Haa haa haaa.

他能呼吸

BJ: Breath is really important for us.

亞德里恩 科勒：（呼吸聲）

It's the kind of original movement

貝索 瓊斯：呼吸對我們而言是很重要的

for any puppet for us onstage.

這是對於對於所有在舞台上的木偶

It's the thing that distinguishes the puppet --

最基本的動作

AK: Oops.

這是用來區分木偶 ......

BJ: From an actor.

亞德里恩 科勒：啊

Puppets always have to try to be alive.

貝索 瓊斯：和演員的一點

It's their kind of ur-story onstage,

木偶總是試圖要活過來

that desperation to live.

這是他們在舞台上的故事

AK: Yeah, it's basically a dead object, as you can see,

他們對生命的渴望

and it only lives

亞德里恩 科勒：就像大家看到的，這其實就是一個沒有生命的物體

because you make it.

只有在你使他活過來時

An actor struggles to die onstage,

他才會有生命

but a puppet has to struggle to live.

演員努力在台上演死去

And in a way that's a metaphor for life.

木偶則努力想要活起來

BJ: So every moment it's on the stage, it's making the struggle.

這也是一種生命的隱喻

So we call this

貝索 瓊斯：所以任何時刻只要在台上，木偶都努力活起來

a piece of emotional engineering

我們就叫他

that uses up-to-the-minute

一個情感工程

17th century technology --

使用了最新的

(Laughter)

17世紀的技術

to turn nouns

（笑聲）

into verbs.

來把名詞

AK: Well actually I prefer to say

變成動詞

that it's an object

事實上我比較喜歡說

constructed out of wood and cloth

這是一個物體

with movement built into it

由木頭和布所做成

to persuade you to believe that it has life.

並且有動作植入其中

BJ: Okay so.

來說服你相信他有生命

AK: It has ears that move passively

貝索 瓊斯：好的所以

when the head goes.

亞德里恩 科勒：當他的頭轉動的時候

BJ: And it has these bulkheads

耳朵可以跟著擺動

made out of plywood,

貝索 瓊斯：而且他有這些隔板

covered with fabric --

是由膠合板做成的

curiously similar, in fact,

覆蓋上布料

to the plywood canoes

事實上就和

that Adrian's father used to make

亞德里恩父親孩童時

when he was a boy in their workshop.

在工作室所做的

AK: In Port Elizabeth, the village outside Port Elizabeth in South Africa.

膠合板獨木舟出奇的相似

BJ: His mother was a puppeteer.

亞德里恩 科勒：在南非伊麗沙伯港，港外的小村莊

And when we met at art school

貝索 瓊斯：他的母親是個木偶表演者

and fell in love

當1971年

in 1971,

我們在藝術學校相遇

I hated puppets.

並且相愛時

I really thought they were so beneath me.

我非常討厭木偶

I wanted to become an avant-garde artist --

我真的覺得他們對我而言太低等了

and Punch and Judy was certainly not where I wanted to go.

我想成為一個前衛的藝術家

And, in fact, it took about 10 years

龐奇與茱蒂（英國傳統木偶劇）絕不是我想做的

to discover

事實上，我大概10年之後

the Bambara Bamana puppets of Mali in West Africa,

才發現

where there's a fabulous tradition of puppetry,

西非國家馬利的特有布偶

to learn a renewed, or a new, respect

那裡有驚人的木偶製作傳統

for this art form.

讓我學到了更新的，或者全新的

AK: So in 1981, I persuaded Basil and some friends of mine

對於這種藝術形式的尊敬

to form a puppet company.

亞德里恩 科勒：所以在1981年，我說服貝索和我的一些朋友

And 20 years later, miraculously,

成立了一個木偶公司

we collaborated with a company from Mali,

20年後，出乎意料地

the Sogolon Marionette Troupe of Bamako,

我們和馬利的一間公司合作

where we made a piece about a tall giraffe.

巴馬科的索格隆木馬團

It was just called "Tall Horse," which was a life-sized giraffe.

我們做了一個很高的長頸鹿木偶

BJ: And here again, you see the same structure.

他被稱做"高馬"，大小就和真的長頸鹿一樣

The bulkheads have now turned into hoops of cane,

貝索 瓊斯：在這裡，你又可以看到同樣的結構

but it's ultimately the same structure.

只是隔板改用藤圈做成

It's got two people inside it on stilts,

但終究是一樣的結構

which give them the height,

他需要兩個踩著高蹺的人在裡面

and somebody in the front

高蹺給他們所需要的高度

who's using a kind of steering wheel to move that head.

還有另一個人在前面

AK: The person in the hind legs

用類似方向盤的東西來移動頭部

is also controlling the tail, a bit like the hyena --

亞德里恩 科勒：一個人在後腿

same mechanism, just a bit bigger.

同時控制尾巴，這有點像鬣狗

And he's controlling the ear movement.

同樣的機械結構，只是比較大

BJ: So this production

另外他還控制耳朵的移動

was seen by Tom Morris

貝索 瓊斯：這個製作

of the National Theatre in London.

被倫敦國家劇團的

And just around that time,

湯姆莫里斯看到了

his mother had said,

而且差不多在那時候

"Have you seen this book by Michael Morpurgo

他的母親說

called 'War Horse'?"

你有沒有看過一本麥克莫波格寫的書

AK: It's about a boy who falls in love with a horse.

叫做"戰馬"？

The horse is sold to the First World War,

亞德里恩 科勒：這是關於一個男孩愛上一匹馬的故事

and he joins up to find his horse.

這批馬被賣去參加第一次世界大戰

BJ: So Tom gave us a call and said,

男孩為了找到這批馬就參加了戰爭

"Do you think you could make us a horse

貝索 瓊斯：所以湯姆就打了通電話給我們說

for a show to happen at the National Theatre?"

"你們覺得你們能不能為我們做出一匹馬

AK: It seemed a lovely idea.

在國家劇院表演？"

BJ: But it had to ride. It had to have a rider.

亞德里恩 科勒：這似乎是個極好的主意

AK: It had to have a rider,

貝索 瓊斯：但是這匹馬要可以騎，他需要扛起一個騎士

and it had to participate in cavalry charges.

亞德里恩 科勒：他需要一個騎士

(Laughter)

他還得加入騎兵隊的進攻

A play about early 20th century plowing technology

（笑聲）

and cavalry charges

對於倫敦的國家劇院來說

was a little bit of a challenge for the accounting department

一個關於二十世紀早期的耕地技術

at the National Theatre in London.

和騎兵隊進攻的戲，這樣的費用

But they agreed to go along with it for a while.

是有點超支了

So we began with a test.

但是他們同意先做一陣子再說

BJ: This is Adrian and Thys Stander,

所以我們就開始測試

who went on to actually design the cane system for the horse,

貝索 瓊斯：這是亞德里恩和希斯斯丹德

and our next-door neighbor Katherine,

他們是戰馬藤圈系統的設計者

riding on a ladder.

我們的鄰居凱瑟琳

The weight is really difficult when it's up above your head.

在梯子上

AK: And once we put Katherine

這樣的重量在懸在頭頂的時候其實是很重的

through that particular brand of hell,

亞德里恩 科勒：一旦我們讓凱瑟琳

we knew that we might be able to make a horse, which could be ridden.

經歷了這個特別的煉獄

So we made a model.

我們就知道我們應該可以製作一匹馬，一匹可以騎的馬

This is a cardboard model,

所以我們做了一個模型

a little bit smaller than the hyena.

這是個厚紙板模型

You'll notice that the legs are plywood legs

這比鬣狗小了一點

and the canoe structure is still there.

你們會注意到這些腿是膠合板做的

BJ: And the two manipulators are inside.

也使用了獨木舟的結構

But we didn't realize at the time

貝索 瓊斯：兩個操縱者在裡面

that we actually needed a third manipulator,

但是當時我們沒有意識到

because we couldn't manipulate the neck

事實上我們需要第三個操縱者

from inside

因為我們沒辦法從裡面

and walk the horse at the same time.

控制脖子

AK: We started work on the prototype

同時又讓馬行走

after the model was approved,

亞德里恩 科勒：在設計模型通過之後

and the prototype took a bit longer

我們開始製作雛形

than we anticipated.

製造這個雛形花的時間

We had to throw out the plywood legs and make new cane ones.

比我們預期的要長

And we had a crate built for it.

我們必須丟棄膠合板的腿，用藤條製作新的

It had to be shipped to London.

而且我們還要為他製作一個大箱子

We were going to test-drive it on the street outside of our house in Cape Town,

這匹馬需要被運到倫敦

and it got to midnight and we hadn't done that yet.

我們原本要在開普敦的街上試跑

BJ: So we got a camera,

但一直忙到半夜所以我們一直都沒這麼做

and we posed the puppet

貝索 瓊斯：所以我們拿照相機

in various galloping stances.

把木馬擺出

And we sent it off

各種奔跑的姿勢

to the National Theatre,

然後把照片

hoping that they believed

寄到國家劇院

that we created something that worked.

希望他們相信

(Laughter)

我們製作出的這個東西是可以用的

AK: A month later, we were there in London

（笑聲）

with this big box and a studio full of people about to work with us.

亞德里恩 科勒：一個月之後，我們帶著這個大箱子到達倫敦

BJ: About 40 people.

見到一整個將要和我們合作的工作室的人員

AK: We were terrified.

大概有四十個人

We opened the lid, we took the horse out,

亞德里恩 科勒：我們很害怕

and it did work; it walked and it was able to be ridden.

我們打開蓋子，把馬拿出來

Here I have an 18-second clip

他真的能動，他能走也能騎

of the very first walk of the prototype.

這裡我有一個十八秒的影像

This is in the National Theatre studio,

是這個雛形真正第一次行走

the place where they cook new ideas.

這是在國家劇院的劇場

It had by no means got the green light yet.

是他們想出新題材的地方

The choreographer, Toby Sedgwick,

當時我們還沒有通過

invented a beautiful sequence

編舞者，陶比席德維克

where the baby horse,

設計了一套優美的動作

which was made out of sticks and bits of twigs,

這個小馬

grew up into the big horse.

整個由樹枝和細棍做成的

And Nick Starr, the director of the National Theatre,

長大變成了壯馬

saw that particular moment, he was standing next to me -- he nearly wet himself.

國家劇院的導演尼克史塔爾

And so the show was given the green light.

看到了這個特別的片段，他站在我旁邊，他差點要尿濕褲子了

And we went back to Cape Town and redesigned the horse completely.

就這樣這個表演就通過了

Here is the plan.

然後我們回到開普敦，重新設計了整匹馬

(Laughter)

這就是我們的計畫

And here is our factory in Cape Town

（笑聲）

where we make horses.

這是我們在開普敦的工廠

You can see quite a lot of skeletons in the background there.

我們製作馬的地方

The horses are completely handmade.

你可以看到在背景裡有很多的骨架

There is very little 20th century technology in them.

這些馬都是手工製作的

We used a bit of laser cutting on the plywood

很少有用到二十世紀的科技

and some of the aluminum pieces.

我們用一點鐳射技術切割膠合板

But because they have to be light and flexible,

和一些鋁片

and each one of them is different,

但是因為這些馬必須要很輕、很靈活

they can't be mass-produced, unfortunately.

而且每一匹都要不一樣

So here are some half-finished horses

所以很不幸，他們不能被批量生產

ready to be worked in London.

所以這裡有一些半成品的馬

And now we would like to introduce you

需要在倫敦繼續加工

to Joey.

現在我們要向大家介紹

Joey boy, you there?

喬依

Joey.

小喬依，你在哪裡？

(Applause)

喬依

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Joey.

（掌聲）

Joey, come here.

喬依

No, no, I haven't got it.

喬依，來這裡

He's got it; it's in his pocket.

不，不，我這裡沒有（食物）

BJ: Joey.

他口袋裡有

AK: Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey.

貝索 瓊斯：喬依

Come here. Stand here where people can see you.

亞德里恩 科勒：喬依，喬依，喬依，喬依

Move around. Come on.

來這裡，站在這裡大家才看得到你

I'd just like to describe --

動一動，來吧

I won't talk too loud. He might get irritated.

我想和大家說明一下

Here, Craig is working the head.

我不會說太大聲，不然他可能會被激怒

He has bicycle brake cables

這裡，克雷格在控制他的頭

going down to the head control in his hand.

他用的是腳踏車的剎車線

Each one of them

每條都連接到他手裡握著的頭部控制中心

operates either an ear, separately,

每一條

or the head, up and down.

分別控制一邊耳朵

But he also controls the head directly

或是頭部的上下移動

by using his hand.

他也用他的手直接

The ears are obviously

控制馬的頭

a very important emotional indicator of the horse.

顯然地，耳朵

When they point right back,

是表現馬兒情緒很重要的方式

the horse is fearful or angry,

當耳朵向後指

depending upon what's going on in front of him, around him.

馬是害怕或者生氣的

Or, when he's more relaxed, the head comes down

取決於馬前面或周圍發生什麼事

and the ears listen, either side.

或者當馬放鬆的時候，他的頭就會垂下來

Horses' hearing is very important.

耳朵會聽，指向兩邊

It's almost more important than their eyesight.

馬的聽覺是非常重要的

Over here,

幾乎比他們的視力還要重要

Tommy's got what you call the heart position.

看這裡

He's working the leg.

湯姆掌握了所謂的心臟部位

You see the string tendon from the hyena,

他負責操控馬腿

the hyena's front leg,

看這裡的弦腱

automatically pulls the hoop up.

像在鬣狗的前腿裡一樣

(Laughter)

自動把環拉起來

Horses are so unpredictable.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

馬是不可預測的

The way a hoof comes up with a horse

（笑聲）

immediately gives you the feeling

馬抬蹄的方式

that it's a convincing horse action.

馬上就讓你覺得

The hind legs have got the same action.

這是真的馬的動作

BJ: And Mikey also has,

後腳也有一樣的動作

in his fingers,

貝索 瓊斯：另外麥奇還有

the ability to move the tail

在他的手指裡

from left to right,

控制馬尾巴的能力

and up and down with the other hand.

從左到右

And together, there's quite a complex possibility

另外一手控制上下

of tail expression.

這些合在一起，就是非常複雜的各種

AK: You want to say something about the breathing?

尾巴“表情”的組合

BJ: We had a big challenge with breathing.

亞德里恩 科勒：你想要說說關於呼吸的部分嗎

Adrian thought

貝索 瓊斯：呼吸方面我們遇到了很大的挑戰

that he was going to have to split the chest of the puppet in two

亞德里恩認為

and make it breathe like that --

他必須要把木偶的胸切成兩半

because that's how a horse would breathe, with an expanded chest.

來這樣呼吸

But we realized

因為這是真的馬呼吸的樣子，胸部擴張

that, if that were to be happening,

但是我們發現

you wouldn't, as an audience, see the breath.

如果這樣做

So he made a channel in here,

身為一個觀眾，你們是看不到他呼吸的

and the chest moves up and down in that channel.

所以他在這裡做了一個通道

So it's anti-naturalistic really, the up and down movement,

胸腔就會在這個通道裡上下動

but it feels like breath.

這個上下移動的動作是違反自然的

And it's very, very simple

但感覺上很像呼吸

because all that happens

而且這非常非常的簡單

is that the puppeteer breathes with his knees.

因為要馬呼吸