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  • I am going to speak about corruption,

    譯者: Geoff Chen 審譯者: Shelley Krishna Tsang

  • but I would like to juxtapose

    我將要談論腐敗的問題,

  • two different things.

    但是我想先將兩件不同的事情

  • One is the large global economy,

    放在一起說說。

  • the large globalized economy,

    其一是宏大的全球經濟,

  • and the other one is the small, and very limited,

    全球化經濟,

  • capacity of our traditional governments

    而另外一個則是渺小的而且非常受限的

  • and their international institutions

    舊式政府

  • to govern, to shape, this economy.

    以及其國際組織

  • Because there is this asymmetry,

    對經濟的監控以及改造能力。

  • which creates, basically,

    這種不對稱性的存在,

  • failing governance.

    基本上導致了

  • Failing governance in many areas:

    無能失策的政府。

  • in the area of corruption and the area of destruction of the environment,

    政府的無能表現在很多方面,

  • in the area of exploitation of women and children,

    例如腐敗以及環境的破壞,

  • in the area of climate change,

    對婦女和兒童的剝削,

  • in all the areas in which we really need

    以及氣候變化,等等。

  • a capacity to reintroduce

    在所有的這些領域中,我們真的很需要

  • the primacy of politics

    重新引介政府效能

  • into the economy,

    在經濟活動中的

  • which is operating in a worldwide arena.

    首要地位

  • And I think corruption,

    達成一個世界級的合作。

  • and the fight against corruption,

    而我認為腐敗

  • and the impact of corruption,

    和針對腐敗的反擊

  • is probably one of the most interesting ways

    以及腐敗的影響

  • to illustrate what I mean

    也許是最有趣的方式

  • with this failure of governance.

    來闡明我

  • Let me talk about my own experience.

    對政府無能失策的看法。

  • I used to work as the director

    我來談談我的經歷吧。

  • of the World Bank office in Nairobi

    我曾經擔任

  • for East Africa.

    世界銀行在奈洛比辦事處的總監

  • At that time, I noticed

    服務區域是東非

  • that corruption, that grand corruption,

    那時候我注意到

  • that systematic corruption,

    腐敗,那種明目張膽的腐敗,

  • was undermining everything we were trying to do.

    系統性的腐敗

  • And therefore, I began

    不斷侵蝕著我們的努力成果。

  • to not only try to protect

    所以,我開始

  • the work of the World Bank,

    竭力維護

  • our own projects, our own programs

    世界銀行的工作成果,

  • against corruption,

    我們的項目,我們的各項企劃

  • but in general, I thought, "We need a system

    防止它們受到腐敗的侵害

  • to protect the people

    但總體而言,我認為,我們需要一種制度

  • in this part of the world

    去保衛

  • from the ravages of corruption."

    該地區的人民

  • And as soon as I started this work,

    使他們免受腐敗的侵害。

  • I received a memorandum from the World Bank,

    然而,一當我展開工作時,

  • from the legal department first,

    我就收到了世界銀行法律部門

  • in which they said, "You are not allowed to do this.

    的一封便函

  • You are meddling in the internal affairs of our partner countries.

    函內寫道,你這樣做是不被允許的。

  • This is forbidden by the charter of the World Bank,

    你這是在干預我們合作國家的內政。

  • so I want you to stop your doings."

    這是世界銀行綱領所禁止的。

  • In the meantime, I was chairing

    所以,我們要求你停止你的行動。

  • donor meetings, for instance,

    在那段時期,我正在主持

  • in which the various donors,

    捐贈者會議

  • and many of them like to be in Nairobi --

    各類捐贈者都出席了會議

  • it is true, it is one of the

    他們中的很多人喜歡待在奈洛比--

  • unsafest cities of the world,

    的確,它是世界上

  • but they like to be there because the other cities

    最不安全的城市之一,

  • are even less comfortable.

    但是他們喜歡待在這裡,因為其他城市

  • And in these donor meetings, I noticed

    讓人感覺更不舒服。

  • that many of the worst projects --

    在這些捐贈者回憶中,我注意到,

  • which were put forward

    很多最差的專案

  • by our clients, by the governments,

    總是被

  • by promoters,

    我們的顧客、政府、

  • many of them representing

    贊助人

  • suppliers from the North --

    他們其中很多人代表

  • that the worst projects

    北方的供應商,

  • were realized first.

    最先地

  • Let me give you an example:

    啟動進行。

  • a huge power project,

    讓我來給你們舉一個例子:

  • 300 million dollars,

    一個巨大的能源項目,

  • to be built smack into

    價值30億,

  • one of the most vulnerable, and one of the most beautiful,

    將在

  • areas of western Kenya.

    世界上最脆弱、又最美麗的地域之一,

  • And we all noticed immediately

    肯亞西部開始啟動。

  • that this project had no economic benefits:

    我們都立刻發現,

  • It had no clients, nobody would buy the electricity there,

    這個專案沒有經濟利益。

  • nobody was interested in irrigation projects.

    他沒有消費者。沒人會從那裡購買電力。

  • To the contrary, we knew that this project

    沒人對灌溉項目感興趣。

  • would destroy the environment:

    相反地,我們知道這項工程

  • It would destroy riparian forests,

    會摧毀環境,

  • which were the basis for

    會毀掉河岸森林,

  • the survival of nomadic groups,

    而這些正是

  • the Samburu and the Turkana in this area.

    那個區域的遊牧部族,

  • So everybody knew this is a, not a useless project,

    如Samburu和Tokana部族所賴以生存的。

  • this is an absolute damaging, a terrible project --

    所以,每個人都知道這不僅是個沒用的項目,

  • not to speak about the future indebtedness of the country

    更是個絕對毀滅性的、可怕的項目。

  • for these hundreds of millions of dollars,

    且不說這個國家將來會因此負債累累,

  • and the siphoning off

    虧欠億萬美元,

  • of the scarce resources of the economy

    它還會貪婪地吞噬

  • from much more important activities

    本來可以花在

  • like schools, like hospitals and so on.

    如學校、醫院等更重要的活動上的

  • And yet, we all rejected this project,

    稀少有限的資源。

  • none of the donors was willing

    我們都駁回了這個項目。

  • to have their name connected with it,

    沒有一個捐獻者願意

  • and it was the first project to be implemented.

    讓自己的名字和這個項目扯上任何關係。

  • The good projects, which we as a donor community

    但是這個項目是最先開始執行的。

  • would take under our wings,

    好的項目,那些我們捐獻者群體

  • they took years, you know,

    願意鼎力相助的項目,

  • you had too many studies,

    卻被拖了一年又一年

  • and very often they didn't succeed.

    你得做很多研究,

  • But these bad projects,

    而且通常它們都不會成功。

  • which were absolutely damaging -- for the economy

    但是這些差勁的項目卻總一帆風順,

  • for many generations, for the environment,

    儘管它們我們的經濟有著絕對損害

  • for thousands of families who had to be resettled --

    會影響到幾代人的環境,

  • they were suddenly put together

    會讓成千上萬的家庭流離失所。

  • by consortia of banks,

    這些項目很突然地成型

  • of supplier agencies,

    幫助它們的是銀行的聯合體、

  • of insurance agencies --

    支持供應商的社團

  • like in Germany, Hermes, and so on --

    和保險公司。

  • and they came back very, very quickly,

    像在德國,愛馬仕公司等等就是背後的推手。

  • driven by an unholy alliance

    它們很快很快地捲土重來

  • between the powerful elites

    背後的驅動力是

  • in the countries there

    國家裡

  • and the suppliers from the North.

    強大精英間的不正義的同盟

  • Now, these suppliers

    以及北方的供應商。

  • were our big companies.

    現在,這些供應商

  • They were the actors of this global market,

    是我們的大公司。

  • which I mentioned in the beginning.

    他們是這全球市場的活躍角色,

  • They were the Siemenses of this world,

    正如我在演講之初所指出的一樣。

  • coming from France, from the UK, from Japan,

    它們是世界上那些像西門子一樣強大的公司,

  • from Canada, from Germany,

    來自法國、英國、日本、

  • and they were systematically driven

    加拿大、德國,

  • by systematic, large-scale corruption.

    它們被有體系的、大型的腐敗

  • We are not talking about

    有規則地驅動前進。

  • 50,000 dollars here,

    我們不是在討論

  • or 100,000 dollars there, or one million dollars there.

    五萬美元的腐敗,

  • No, we are talking about 10 million, 20 million dollars

    也不是十萬,或一百萬。

  • on the Swiss bank accounts,

    我們在討論的,是一千萬、兩千萬美元,

  • on the bank accounts of Liechtenstein,

    它們以賄款的形勢出現在瑞士的帳號上、

  • of the president's ministers,

    列支敦士登的銀行帳戶裡,

  • the high officials in the para-statal sectors.

    那些帳戶屬於總統的部長、

  • This was the reality which I saw,

    半國營部門的高級官員。

  • and not only one project like that:

    這就是我看到的現實,

  • I saw, I would say,

    而且這樣的情況不是個例

  • over the years I worked in Africa,

    我敢說我在

  • I saw hundreds of projects like this.

    我在非洲工作的這些年裡

  • And so, I became convinced

    看見過成百上千個這樣的項目。

  • that it is this systematic corruption

    因此,我相信

  • which is perverting economic policy-making in these countries,

    這種系統性的腐敗

  • which is the main reason

    正在使這些國家的經濟政策走向歧途,

  • for the misery, for the poverty,

    也正是這種腐敗將這些國家推進

  • for the conflicts, for the violence,

    苦難、貧窮、

  • for the desperation

    衝突、暴力、

  • in many of these countries.

    絕望

  • That we have today

    的深淵。

  • more than a billion people below the absolute poverty line,

    現今,我們有

  • that we have more than a billion people

    超過十億的人處在絕對貧窮線以下

  • without proper drinking water in the world,

    我們有超過十億人

  • twice that number,

    沒有合理處理過的清水可以飲用

  • more than two billion people

    更有兩倍那麼多的人,

  • without sanitation and so on,

    超過二十億的人

  • and the consequent illnesses

    沒有衛生設備等等,

  • of mothers and children,

    因此女人和孩子

  • still, child mortality of more than

    經常受到疾病侵襲

  • 10 million people every year,

    直至今日,每年還有

  • children dying before they are five years old:

    超過千萬的兒童

  • The cause of this is, to a large extent,

    在五歲前死亡。

  • grand corruption.

    追根溯源,這些問題在很大程度上

  • Now, why did the World Bank

    是因為規模龐大的腐敗。

  • not let me do this work?

    那麼,為什麼世界銀行

  • I found out afterwards,

    不讓我對此作出反應呢?

  • after I left, under a big fight, the World Bank.

    我在一次與世界銀行的大爭執後,離開此機構

  • The reason was that the members of the World Bank

    後來我才搞明白:

  • thought that foreign bribery was okay,

    原因是,世界銀行的成員國

  • including Germany.

    覺得對外賄賂是沒問題的,

  • In Germany, foreign bribery was allowed.

    比如德國就這麼認為。

  • It was even tax-deductible.

    在德國,對外行賄是被允許的。

  • No wonder that most of the most important

    它甚至是可免稅的。

  • international operators in Germany,

    難怪絕大多數德國、

  • but also in France and the UK

    法國、英國、斯堪地那維亞,

  • and Scandinavia, everywhere, systematically bribed.

    所有地方大多數最重要的跨國企業

  • Not all of them, but most of them.

    都有系統地進行著賄賂

  • And this is the phenomenon

    我不是說所有的,但是絕大多數的公司對此都不能問心無愧。

  • which I call failing governance,

    我把這樣一個現象

  • because when I then came to Germany

    稱作治理失敗

  • and started this little NGO

    當我來到德國

  • here in Berlin, at the Villa Borsig,

    成立了這個小小的非政府組織

  • we were told, "You cannot stop

    在柏林,在Villa Borsig,

  • our German exporters from bribing,

    我們被告知,我們不能阻止

  • because we will lose our contracts.

    德國出口商行賄,

  • We will lose to the French,

    因為我們德國會因此失去合約。

  • we will lose to the Swedes, we'll lose to the Japanese."

    我們會輸給法國人、

  • And therefore, there was a indeed a prisoner's dilemma,

    瑞士人、日本人,

  • which made it very difficult

    因此,這就形成了一個“囚徒困境”

  • for an individual company,

    這樣一來,

  • an individual exporting country

    單獨的公司,

  • to say, "We are not going to

    或者出口國

  • continue this deadly, disastrous

    就很難說,我們將不再

  • habit of large companies to bribe."

    繼續這種災難性的

  • So this is what I mean

    行賄習慣了。

  • with a failing governance structure,

    這就是我所知的

  • because even the powerful government,

    失能的政府結構

  • which we have in Germany, comparatively,

    因為即使是強大的政府,

  • was not able to say,

    如相對強大的德國政府,

  • "We will not allow our companies to bribe abroad."

    也不能夠說,

  • They needed help,

    我們將不允許我們的公司在海外行賄。

  • and the large companies themselves

    它們需要幫助

  • have this dilemma.

    而且這些大公司本身

  • Many of them didn't want to bribe.

    也身處這種兩難的境地。

  • Many of the German companies, for instance,

    其中很多公司並不想行賄。

  • believe that they are really

    比如,很多德國公司

  • producing a high-quality product

    相信它們確實是

  • at a good price, so they are very competitive.

    能夠製造出物美價廉、

  • They are not as good at bribing

    有競爭力的產品。

  • as many of their international competitors are,

    它們不如其他國際競爭者

  • but they were not allowed

    善於行賄之術,

  • to show their strengths,

    但是它們沒有機會

  • because the world was eaten up

    展現自己的長處

  • by grand corruption.

    因為這個世界

  • And this is why I'm telling you this:

    正在被大規模的腐敗侵蝕。

  • Civil society rose to the occasion.

    我想說的是,隨著政府的失能,

  • We had this small NGO,

    公民社會組織就應站出來。

  • Transparency International.

    我們有一個小型的非政府組織,

  • They began to think of

    「透明國際」(Transparency International)

  • an escape route from this prisoner's dilemma,

    我們開始設想

  • and we developed concepts

    一條從“囚徒困境”裡的逃生之路,

  • of collective action,

    我們也開始闡揚

  • basically trying to bring various competitors

    集體行動的概念,

  • together around the table,

    即嘗試將不同的競爭者

  • explaining to all of them

    集合到談判桌前,

  • how much it would be in their interests

    向他們解釋

  • if they simultaneously would stop bribing,

    如果他們同時停止行賄

  • and to make a long story short,

    是對他們多麼有好處。

  • we managed to eventually

    長話短說,

  • get Germany to sign

    我們最終得以

  • together with the other OECD countries

    使德國和

  • and a few other exporters.

    其他經濟合作發展組織的成員國

  • In 1997, a convention,

    以及一些其他的出口國

  • under the auspices of the OECD,

    在1997年的一場會議上

  • which obliged everybody

    在經濟合作發展組織的贊助支援下,

  • to change their laws

    使所有參與者

  • and criminalize foreign bribery.

    改變法律

  • (Applause)

    使國際行賄犯罪化。

  • Well, thank you. I mean, it's interesting,

    (觀眾掌聲)

  • in doing this,

    謝謝大家,我覺得這蠻有趣的,

  • we had to sit together with the companies.

    做這件事的時候,

  • We had here in Berlin, at the Aspen Institute on the Wannsee,

    我們必須跟這些公司坐在一起。

  • we had sessions with about

    我們在柏林的山楊協會

  • 20 captains of industry,

    和20個企業大首腦

  • and we discussed with them

    開了幾次會,

  • what to do about international bribery.

    我們和他們討論了

  • In the first session -- we had three sessions

    如何應對國際行賄的問題。

  • over the course of two years.

    我們一共有三個跨時兩年的會議

  • And President von Weizsäcker, by the way,

    在第一個會議裡

  • chaired one of the sessions, the first one,

    一個來自馮·魏茨澤克的主席

  • to take the fear away

    主持了第一個會議

  • from the entrepreneurs,

    以消除企業家們

  • who were not used to deal

    的恐懼

  • with non-governmental organizations.

    因為他們不習慣與

  • And in the first session, they all said,

    非政府組織打交道。

  • "This is not bribery, what we are doing." This is customary there.

    在第一個會議裡,他們都說,

  • This is what these other cultures demand.

    他們做的不是行賄。那是個習俗。

  • They even applaud it.

    那是其他的文化所要求的。

  • In fact, [unclear]

    他們甚至贊許這種行為。

  • still says this today.

    事實上,有人

  • And so there are still a lot of people

    到如今還堅持這樣的觀點。