And I want to start with a question

John Hockenberry:很高興認識你,Tom

that has just been consuming me

我想要問你一個問題

since I first became familiar with your work.

一個一直很困擾我的問題

In you work there's always this kind of hybrid quality

自從我開始認識你的作品後

of a natural force

我發現在你的作品中一直有著某種

in some sort of interplay with creative force.

自然元素

Are they ever in equilibrium

與創意互相影響的呈現

in the way that you see your work?

以你看作品的眼光來看

Tom Shannon: Yeah, the subject matter that I'm looking for,

自然與創意甚麼時候會出現平衡呢?

it's usually to solve a question.

TM:在我尋找的素材中

I had the question popped into my head:

通常都是為了要解決一個問題

What does the cone that connects the sun and the Earth look like

我腦中一直有一個疑惑

if you could connect the two spheres?

什麼樣的圓錐體可以聯繫著太陽與地球

And in proportion, what would the size of the sphere

如果你可以使他們連結在一起呢?

and the length, and what would the taper be to the Earth?

並且,這兩個星球大小與長度的比例應該如何

And so I went about and made that sculpture,

以及到達地球這端時這個錐體會是怎麼樣的樣子?

turning it out of solid bronze.

所以我往這方面思考並且做出了雕塑品

And I did one that was about 35 feet long.

最後用青銅做出了成品

The sun end was about four inches in diameter,

它大約有35公尺長

and then it tapered over about 35 feet

在太陽端直徑有4吋

to about a millimeter at the Earth end.

接著以錐狀延伸約35公尺長

And so for me, it was really exciting

到了地球端直徑約1毫米

just to see what it looks like

對我來說,光是看到它會長成什麼樣子

if you could step outside and into a larger context,

是非常有趣的事情

as though you were an astronaut,

假如你可以踏出去,進入一個更大的空間

and see these two things as an object,

就像你是個太空人一樣

because they are so intimately bound,

並且看到這兩個星球像是個物體一般

and one is meaningless without the other.

因為他們是如此親近的結合著

JH: Is there a relief

如果其中一個失去另一個那麼它就會毫無意義了

in playing with these forces?

JH:當你在思考這個問題時

And I'm wondering how much of a sense of discovery there is

是否有感覺到放鬆的時候?

in playing with these forces.

並且,我在想當你在探討這些事情的時候

TS: Well, like the magnetically levitated objects --

在這個問題上到底有多少的可能性可以開發?

like that silver one there,

TS:唔,就像那邊那個用銀做成

that was the result

磁性吸引力原理的作品

of hundreds of experiments with magnets,

那是個經過數百次材料實驗

trying to find a way to make something float

的結果

with the least possible connection to the ground.

我在尋找一個可以使用最少與地表連結

So I got it down to just one tether

並且漂浮的方法

to be able to support that.

所以我只做了一個栓繩

JH: Now is this electromagnetic here, or are these static?

來支撐它

TS: Those are permanent magnets, yeah.

JH:所以這是使用電磁學的還是固定的?

JH: Because if the power went out, there would just be a big noise.

TS:它們是永久性磁石沒錯

TS: Yeah.

JH:因為如果它的磁力消失了當他掉下來會產生很大的聲音

It's really unsatisfactory having plug-in art.

TS:是阿

JH: I agree.

使用插電式的藝術實在令人非常不滿意

TS: The magnetic works

JH:我同意

are a combination of gravity and magnetism,

TS:電磁學作品是一種

so it's a kind of mixture of these ambient forces

地心引力與磁力的結合

that influence everything.

所以這算是一種混合了影響周遭一切

The sun has a tremendous field

的素材創作而成的結合

that extends way beyond the planets

太陽光有著極大的活動範疇

and the Earth's magnetic field protects us from the sun.

並且擴張越過了星球

So there's this huge

而地球有磁場可以保護我們免於太陽的力量

invisible shape structures

所以,其實在宇宙中

that magnetism takes in the universe.

磁力有種非常巨大

But with the pendulum,

並且隱形的結構

it allows me to manifest

然而,有了鐘擺

these invisible forces

它讓我明白了

that are holding the magnets up.

這個構成磁力的

My sculptures

隱形的力量

are normally very simplified.

我的雕塑作品

I try to refine them down

都非常的簡單

to very simple forms.

我嘗試著去使它們更精煉

But the paintings become very complex,

變成一個很簡單的構造

because I think the fields

但是在繪畫上它們變得非常的複雜

that are supporting them,

因為我認為

they're billowing, and they're interpenetrating,

那個支持著它們的力量

and they're interference patterns.

是波浪似並且互相滲透貫穿

JH: And they're non-deterministic.

而且互相干擾的圖形

I mean, you don't know necessarily where you're headed when you begin,

JH:而且他們是無法預測的

even though the forces can be calculated.

我是指,儘管那些素材可以被計算出來,然而

So the evolution of this --

當你一開始做的時候你並不知道你會往哪個方向走

I gather this isn't your first pendulum.

所以以現在的進展來看

TS: No. (JH: No.)

我想這不是你的第一個鐘擺吧

TS: The first one I did was in the late 70's,

TS:不 (JH:不)

and I just had a simple cone

TS:我做的第一個是在1970年後期

with a spigot at the bottom of it.

而且我只有一個很簡單的圓錐體

I threw it into an orbit,

有個一個小小的栓在它的底部

and it only had one color,

我把它丟進一個軌道

and when it got to the center, the paint kept running out,

而且他只有一個顏色

so I had to run in there,

當他到了中心的時候,顏料一直跑出來

didn't have any control over the spigot remotely.

所以我必須跑進裡面

So that told me right away: I need a remote control device.

我無法在外面遙控那個栓

But then I started dreaming of having six colors.

所以這件事情告訴我,我需要一個遙控裝置

I sort of think about it as the DNA --

然後從那次之後我一直想著要有6個顏色

these colors, the red, blue, yellow,

我有一點把它想成DNA的感覺

the primary colors and white and black.

這些顏色,紅的藍的黃的

And if you put them together in different combinations --

這些主要的顏色以及白色跟黑色

just like printing in a sense,

如果你把他們使用不同的合併方式放在一起

like how a magazine color is printed --

某方面來說就像是在畫畫

and put them under certain forces,

像是雜誌的顏色是如何被印出來的

which is orbiting them

並把它們放在一些條件下

or passing them back and forth

使它們繞軌道運行

or drawing with them,

或是讓他們前後交替運動

these amazing things started appearing.

或是用他們畫畫

JH: It looks like we're loaded for bear here.

接著這些驚人的事情就開始發生了

TS: Yeah, well let's put a couple of canvases.

JH: 我們已經準備好要面對了

I'll ask a couple of my sons

TS:是阿,我叫我兒子

to set up the canvases here.

把兩片帆布

I want to just say --

放在這裡

so this is Jack, Nick and Louie.

這是

JH: Thanks guys.

Jack, Nick和Louie

TS: So here are the --

JH:謝謝你們

JH: All right, I'll get out of the way here.

TS: 所以這是....

TS: I'm just going to throw this into an orbit

JH: 我應該要到這裡來

and see if I can paint everybody's shoes in the front.

TS:我現在要將它隨著軌道推出去

(Laughter)

我想想看看你們放在前面的腳會不會被上色

JH: Whoa. That is ...

(大笑)

ooh, nice.

JH:哇嗚,這真是....

TS: So something like this.

太好了

I'm doing this as a demo,

TS:就像我

and it's more playful,

示範的這樣

but inevitably,

那麼好玩

all of this can be used.

錯誤

I can redeem this painting,

是不可避免的

just continuing on,

只要一層又一層

doing layers upon layers.

的覆蓋上去

And I keep it around for a couple of weeks,

就可以改變這幅畫

and I'm contemplating it,

我讓它就這樣繞一兩個禮拜

and I'll do another session with it

在這段時間

and bring it up to another level,

我會再做另外一個

where all of this

更高難度的

becomes the background, the depth of it.

讓這一切

JH: That's fantastic.

成為背景

So the valves at the bottom of those tubes there

這真是太棒了

are like radio-controlled airplane valves.

所以在這個管子下面

TS: Yes, they're servos with cams

有個像是無線電遙控飛機的閥

that pinch these rubber tubes.

TS:只要用這個遙控器

And they can pinch them very tight and stop it,

就可以控制他

or you can have them wide open.

可以讓它動的比較快或是讓他停止

And all of the colors

你也可以就讓他打開

come out one central port

這些顏色

at the bottom.

是從底部的中心點

You can always be changing colors, put aluminum paint,

出來的

or I could put anything into this.

你可以改變想要的顏色

It could be tomato sauce,

你可以放顏料或放任何有顏色的東西

or anything could be dispensed --

番茄醬也可以

sand, powders or anything like that.

什麼都可以放

JH: So many forces there.

沙子,粉 諸如此類的

You've got gravity, you've got the centrifugal force,

JH:你用了很多力學的原裡

you've got the fluid dynamics.

像是動力,離心力

Each of these beautiful paintings,

還有流體動力學

are they images in and of themselves,

每一幅

or are they records

漂亮的畫

of a physical event

都有被為記錄

called the pendulum approaching the canvas?

稱為鐘擺理論

TS: Well, this painting here,

的物理事件

I wanted to do something very simple,

TS:我只是想要做一個

a simple, iconic image

簡單的標誌

of two ripples interfering.

就像那幅

So the one on the right was done first,

兩個連在一起的波紋

and then the one on the left

右邊的那個波紋

was done over it.

先完成然後

And then I left gaps

左邊的波紋再上去

so you could see the one that was done before.

你可以從依些差距

And then when I did the second one,

看出先後順序

it really disturbed the piece --

當我做第二個的時候

these big blue lines

有點不安

crashing through the center of it --

因為這條藍色的線

and so it created a kind of tension and an overlap.

沒有隨著軌道上去

There are lines in front of the one on the right,

但是他卻表現出了張力和重疊

and there are lines behind the one on the left,

這些左邊的線條疊在右邊的線條上

and so it takes it into different planes.

右邊的線條在左邊的線條下

What it's also about,

變成了不一樣的平面

just the little events,

雖然對...

the events of the interpenetration of --

只是一個

JH: Two stars, or --

滲透現象

TS: Two things that happened --

JH:兩個星星或...

there's an interference pattern, and then a third thing happens.

TS:對兩件事情

There are shapes that come about

這只是一個干涉的圖樣,然而第三件事情就發生了

just by the marriage

這是一個圖片

of two events that are happening,

就像是兩個人遇到了

and I'm very interested in that.

然後就結婚了

Like the occurrence of moire patterns.

我覺得

Like this green one,

疊紋原理很有趣

this is a painting I did about 10 years ago,

就像是這幅我在十年前

but it has some --

做的畫

see, in the upper third --

看一看

there are these moires and interference patterns

上面第三個

that are radio kind of imagery.

這裡有些疊紋和滲透原理

And that's something that in painting

像是無線電圖案

I've never seen done.

在所有畫作上

I've never seen a representation

我從來沒有看過

of a kind of radio interference patterns,

像這樣的

which are so ubiquitous

一種無線電干擾圖樣

and such an important part of our lives.

是無所不在的

JH: Is that a literal part of the image,

以及在我們日常生活中是非常重要的

or is my eye making that interference pattern --

JH: 那是文字的部分圖像

is my eye completing that interference pattern?

或是在我眼中所顯現的干擾圖樣?

TS: It is the paint actually,

我完成那個干擾圖樣了嗎?

makes it real.

TS:那是真的畫

It's really manifested there.

使他變真實

If I throw a very concentric circle,

他真的是在那邊

or concentric ellipse,

如果我丟一個同心圓

it just dutifully makes

或一個同心橢圓

these evenly spaced lines,

他將會使

which get closer and closer together,

這些變成線狀

which describes how gravity works.

那些同心圓或同心橢圓會越來越靠近

There's something very appealing

這可以解釋重力如何運作

about the exactitude of science

這有些事非常吸引人

that I really enjoy.

有關於科學的正確性

And I love the shapes that I see

我非常享受在其中

in scientific observations

而且我喜歡我所看到的形狀

and apparatus,

在科學的觀察

especially astronomical forms

以及儀器

and the idea of the vastness of it,

特別是天文學領域

the scale,

以及它無邊無際的想法

is very interesting to me.

它的規模

My focus in recent years

非常使我感到興趣

has kind of shifted more toward biology.

我這幾年所專注的領域

Some of these paintings, when you look at them very close,

有慢慢往生物學移動

odd things appear

當你非常靠近得看這些畫時

that really look like horses or birds

奇怪的事情發生了

or crocodiles, elephants.

它們看起來真像馬或是鳥

There are lots of things that appear.

或者是鱷魚以及大象

When you look into it, it's sort of like looking at cloud patterns,

有好多種東西同時出現

but sometimes they're very modeled and highly rendered.

當你往裡面看時,他有點像在看雲

And then there are all these forms

但他們有時很像模型且畫得很真實

that we don't know what they are,

然後有這些形式

but they're equally well-resolved

那些我們不知道它們是什麼的東西

and complex.

但他們同樣地很好解決

So I think, conceivably, those could be predictive.

且複雜

Because since it has the ability

所以我認為那些可以想像的將可以被預測

to make forms

因為它們有能力

that look like forms that we're familiar with

去做那些形式

in biology,

就像我們熟悉的形式一樣

it's also making other forms that we're not familiar with.

在生物學中

And maybe it's the kind of forms

他也可以做另一種我們不熟悉的形式

we'll discover underneath the surface of Mars,

且也許是某種形式

where there are probably lakes

某人可以發現火星的地表下面

with fish swimming under the surface.

有湖泊

JH: Oh, let's hope so. Oh, my God, let's.

有魚在水裡游泳

Oh, please, yes. Oh, I'm so there.

JH:OH,讓我們祈禱吧

You know, it seems

拜託,我想去那

at this stage in your life,

你知道,那似乎

you also very personally

是在你生命中的某一階段

are in this state of confrontation

你也非常個人的

with a sort of dissonant --

在這種比較的狀況下

I suppose it's an electromagnetic force

有一種不和諧的來源

that somehow governs your Parkinson's

我提議一個電磁力量

and this creative force

那是種控制巴金森氏症的東西

that is both the artist

而且他創造的力量

who is in the here and now

都是藝術家

and this sort of arc of your whole life.

誰現在在這

Is that relevant to your work?

而且是一種你整個生命裡的弧形

TS: As it turns out,

這跟你的工作有關係嗎

this device kind of comes in handy,

TS:結果證明是

because I don't have to have

這個裝置是一種手持式的裝置

the fine motor skills to do,

因為我不必去擁有

that I can operate slides,

一個精巧的馬達技術去做

which is more of a mental process.

我可以利用滑動來操作他

I'm looking at it and making decisions:

這是種行為的過程

It needs more red, it needs more blue,

我在尋找他並做結論

it needs a different shape.

它需要更多紅色,也需要很多的藍色

And so I make these creative decisions

它也需要不同的形狀