You know, my guest today found himself riding high on some career wins, but inside he was

我們今天的來賓在他的職業生涯中一帆風順，締造許多佳績，但在他的內心

feeling empty and alone. He’s here today to share some lessons he’s learned about

卻感到空虛與孤獨。今天他來到這裡跟我們分享他所學到

how the masks that we can all wear keep us from being our best.

我們戴上的面具如何妨礙我們成為更好的人

Lewis Howes is a former professional football player turned lifestyle entrepreneur. He’s

Lewis Howes 先前是個職業美式足球選手，後來成為追求自我價值的創業家。

the author of the New York Times bestseller, The School of Greatness, with a popular podcast

它是紐約時報暢銷書的作者，《The School of Greatness》，與著名的播客節目同名

of the same name. Lewis is a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and has been featured

Lewis 是創業者雜誌的投稿作家，也曾上過許多節目

on The Today Show, Fast Company, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and Men’s Health, among others.

Today、Fast Company、ESPN、Sports Illustrated 還有 Men’s Health 等等

His newest book, The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create

他最新的著作，《The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create Strong Relationships, and Live Their Fullest Lives》

Strong Relationships, And Live Their Fullest Lives, is available now.

現在已經上市

Hey, Lewis.

嗨，Lewis

Good to see you, Marie.

很高興看到妳，Marie

So good to see you. I’m so excited that we’re finally doing this.

好開心看到你，我們終於邀請你來上節目，我好興奮

Me too. Thanks for having me. Of course. It’s been, it’s been a while,

我也是，感謝你們邀請我。 -當然，已經有一段時間了

so I want to start at the top with this book, The Masks of Masculinity. Tell us what was

所以我想要從這本書的封面開始談起，男子氣概的假面，能不能告訴我們

the inspiration to write this one? Because it’s a departure from your last book and

寫出這標題的靈感何來？因為這跟上一本書是截然不同的，

most of the topics.

裡面的主題也有很大差異

Yeah. The inspiration came from a darker pain that I think you’re aware of that I started

沒錯，靈感是從一個更黑暗的苦痛而來，我想妳應該知道我開始

talking about a few years ago where my whole life I felt like I needed to achieve certain

談論數年前我的整個生活，我覺得我需要達到一些目標

things, to fit in, to be accepted, to be welcomed as a part of the community – whether it

去適應、被接受、被接納成為團體的一份子，不管是在

be in school, with classmates, to teammates in sports, to the business world. I always

學校、跟同學、跟運動場上的隊友、跟現實社會。我總是

felt like I needed to fit in. And by doing so I needed to prove myself to the people

覺得我需要去適應。因此我需要向人們證明我自己

to fit in and to be accepted.

去適應以及被接受

And so I was very driven to achieve, and it worked. That drive allowed me to get certain

所以我強迫自己去達成，也成功了。那樣的驅動力讓我得到我要的

results, but every time I achieved those results I never felt happy inside, I never felt fulfilled.

結果，但每次我達成這些成績時，我的內心並不感到開心，我從來不覺得滿意

I didn't feel like, “Oh, I've figured it out now that I’ve got this thing.” Like

我沒有感覺到「噢，我現在想通了，我得到我要的了。」

I had inner peace. I never had inner peace. I felt like I was always alone, always suffering

就像我內心是平靜的。我從來沒有感到內心平靜過。我覺得我總是孤獨，總是感到痛苦

and resentful and angry when I would achieve. It was almost as if like the moment I achieved

憤慨與憤怒，當我達成某個目標。就好像我達到

the things I wanted to achieve, I was the least happy. And I never understood why. So

我想要達成的目標時，我是最不開心的，而我從來不知道為什麼

I said “I need bigger goals, I need bigger dreams. I need – maybe it’s not big enough.”

所以我說：「我需要更大的目標，我需要更大的夢想，我需要…或許它就是不夠遠大。」

Right?

是吧？

Right. Like you’re not dreaming big enough.

沒錯，就像是你夢想不夠遠大

Yeah.

對

You don't have the vision big enough.

你的眼光不夠遠

Exactly. So let me keep going.

完全正確，所以我要繼續前進

Yeah.

對

And so in my 20s and late 20s I just kept going bigger and bigger. And still, every

所以在我 20 歲到接近 30 歲時，我把目標訂得越來越大。同樣地，每次

time I would achieve something or certain marks that I set for myself, it wasn’t enough

我要完成某些事或達成某個我設定的里程碑時，內心仍覺得不夠

inside. And I didn't understand why. I just figured this is the way it is. This is who

我還是不懂為什麼。我只能猜想就這樣吧，我就是這樣的人

I am. This is what life is all about.

人生就是這樣

And I didn't have that awareness until four … about four and a half years ago, kind

但直到 4 … 4 年半以前我才意識到

of everything went south for me. You know, I was achieving at the highest levels in my

好像所有事都開始走下坡了。在我的事業上我已經達到最高水準

business. I, you know, I was achieving athletically my dream playing with the USA Handball team.

我…妳知道的，我達成運動生涯中的夢想，入選美國手球隊

I had, you know, the beautiful girlfriend. I had like what – I had a lot of money.

我有一個漂亮的女朋友。我有很多錢

What a lot of guys would think of like that "He’s made it. He’s making it." But

有許多人都會想：「他做到了，他正在成就他的人生。」

I was in a terrible just darkness inside. I didn't know how to handle my inner world.

但我覺得內心十分陰暗，我的心理狀況很糟。我不知道怎麼處理我的內心世界

My outer world looked good. My inner world was sick.

我的外在世界看起來很好，但我的內心世界生病了

I think it’s interesting just to note for folks, because a lot of us, you know, especially

我覺得這是很有趣的，可以提醒人們，因為許多人，尤其

when you don't come from a lot and, you know, doesn't matter if it’s middle class, poor,

當你不是很富裕的人，不論是中產階級、貧困人家

anywhere on that spectrum, and then you start to achieve. It’s like a lot of people go,

任何那些中低階層的人，而當你開始達成成就時。很多人可能會說

“Oh, it’s easy for you to say.” You know, “you have all the things now. Oh,

「噢，你說得倒輕鬆。」「你現在擁有了那麼多，噢，

but boo hoo inside.”

但內心卻像個孩子哭鬧。」

But I think it’s important to make the point. I’ve certainly noticed this from so many

但我想重要的是你指出了這點。我當然從許多人身上注意到了

people that I’ve interviewed, books that I’ve read, folks that I know in my personal

那些我訪問過的人、我讀過的書、我私底下的朋友們

life, that no matter how much is happening or appearing to happen on the outside, it

不論外在發生或即將發生多少變化

cannot make up for some of the deep pain and suffering that’s happening on the inside

都無法彌補一些內心世界發生的深層的痛苦

that a lot of times you just don't know about.

而且你通常是不知道的

And a lot of the people that are so driven, that are successful, usually comes from some

同時許多人也鼓吹，成功通常來自於

type of darker pain or something to prove.

某些深層的痛苦，或是某些需要證明的事

Yeah.

沒錯

Which was where I was coming from. So it all kind of came crashing down when – it’s

這就是為什麼我要出這本書。所以這一切都崩潰的時候，當…

funny, because I’m having like a deja vu moment with you. Because I actually was sitting

這非常有趣，因為我覺得跟妳好像有過似曾相識的時刻。因為實際上我跟妳好像

with you I think at a coffee shop nearby when I was like, “you know, I’m thinking about

坐在附近的咖啡廳裡，當時我似乎說：「妳知道嗎，我在考慮要搬去洛杉磯 (Los Angeles)。」

moving to LA.”

Yes.

沒錯

Do you remember this conversation?

妳記得這個對話嗎？

Totally. Of course I do.

當然，我完全記得

I was like, “What do you think? Give me your advice, because I really look up to you

我說：「妳覺得如何？給我一些建議，因為我真的很敬重妳，

and I appreciate your wisdom.” So I was like, “What do you think? I’m in love

我也很欣賞妳的智慧。」我說：「妳怎麼想？我跟一個女孩在一起

with this girl. Like, I don't know but things are going well here in New York City. She

我不知道該怎麼辦，在紐約的一切都很順利，但她

wants me to be in LA. I don't know what to do.” And you’re like, “You know what?

想要我去洛杉磯，我不知道該怎麼辦。」然後妳說：「你知道嗎

Just go for it. Like, just go for it, because you don't want to regret it.” And you told

就做吧，就照你想的做吧，因為你不想要遺憾。」然後妳告訴我

me to really listen to my intuition. And I was like, “You know, maybe I’ll try it

聽從你自己的直覺。然後我又說：「好吧，或許我會試試看」

out.” You know, I wasn’t sure. I was kind of torn. You told me to go for it, and I did,

我不是非常肯定，當時我有點折磨。妳告訴我就去做吧，而我也做了

and I’m very glad I did because it allowed me to open – it got me to my darkest place.

然後我非常開心我做了，因為這讓我開啟了…這把我帶領到了我最黑暗的時刻

Yes.

是的

It allowed me to see what was working and what wasn’t working.

這讓我看到了什麼是有用的，什麼是沒有用的

Yeah.

對

And the relationship was very toxic afterwards, but I didn't know how to emotionally communicate

後來我跟女朋友的關係變得十分緊張，但我不知道該如何理性地溝通

in the relationship and express myself in a healthy way.

對於這段關係，還有以健康的方式抒發我自己

Yeah.

是

So when things weren’t going well I just didn't feel like I couldn't even talk to her.

所以當所有事情都不順利時，我覺得我沒辦法…甚至無法跟她說話

I felt like I wasn’t able to express myself for whatever reason. And what I would do is

我覺得不論什麼原因，我都無法表達我自己的感受。而我當時做的是

I would take that anger out into the world. I wouldn't be angry with her or get in a fight

我會把這樣的憤怒發洩到生活中。我不會跟她生氣或吵架

with her. I would take it out in the sports world when I was playing basketball, in business

我會在打籃球的時候暴躁、跟朋友談生意的時候生氣

with my friends. I would take it out elsewhere on people.

我會把情緒帶到其他人身上

And I was very angry, resentful, and passive aggressive. And so the relationship was very

我會非常生氣、憤慨和消極。所以那段關係對我來說

toxic for me because I didn’t know how to emotionally communicate. I was angry, resentful,

是非常不愉快的，因為我不知道怎麼理性溝通，我很生氣、憤慨

my business relationship was crumbling, and I started to get in a lot of fights. I started

我跟生意夥伴的關係正在崩潰，然後我開始跟許多人爭吵

to get very aggressive with everyone. Any time someone would attack me or give me a

我開始對每個人都有攻擊性，任何時候有人在網路上攻擊我或給我

comment online that I didn't like or say “give me feedback,” it was like I had to defend

我不喜歡的評論時，或說：「給我回饋。」這就像是我必須去

myself with everything. The point where I got in a fight on a basketball court, and

為我自己的一切辯護。當我在籃球場上跟人爭執時

that literally shook my world. Because I could have lost everything. You know.

真的動搖了我的世界，因為我可能失去一切

It was a fist fight.

那是真的拳腳相向

A fist fight. A physical fight. For months it was like I was walking down the street

真的打架，真的拳打腳踢。大概一整個月我走在路上

looking for people to look at me weird so I could fight them. I kind of had that aggression.

都覺得大家看我的眼神很奇怪，那我就可以跟他們打架。我當時很具攻擊性

I was like, “You trying to look at me? You trying to step to me?” or whatever. And,

我就像是「你是在看我嗎？你是向我走過來嗎？」之類的

you know, finally in this basketball game I got in a fight. And I gave myself the justification

最後在這場球賽中我真的跟人打起來了。我給自己的理由是

that he hit me first, so it was okay to hit back. Right? Since he hit me first, it was

他先打我的，所以打回去是沒問題的，不是嗎？當他先打我

okay to hit back. But I didn't know when to stop. And I finally got pulled off the fight

反擊回去是沒問題的。但我不知道何時該停止。最後我被拉走

and I looked at the guy and saw his face completely, you know, just bloody. Blood all over the

然後我看著這個人，他的臉上完全…血流滿面。整個球場佈滿血跡

courts, all over my hands. And I started shaking. And I was just like, you know, “what did

我的整雙手都是血。我開始發抖，然後我就像：「我剛剛做了什麼？

I just do? What did I just do? Everything could go wrong from this moment forward.”

我剛剛幹了什麼好事？從今以後的一切可能都要變樣了。」

You know, the police station was actually right across the street from this place. And

警察局其實就在那附近

I was like what happens if they saw this? What – you know, what if I go to jail?

如果他們看到怎麼辦？如果我進監獄怎麼辦？

I actually ran home like a coward. I couldn't even face him or anyone else there. I ran

事實上我就像個懦夫一樣跑回家裡，我沒辦法面對他或在場的任何一個人

home like a coward, washed the blood off my hands, looked at myself in the mirror, and

我像個孬種一樣跑回家，洗掉手上的血跡，看著鏡中的自己

was just like, “Who are you? Who are you? What are you doing? Why are you so angry?”

說：「你是誰？你到底是誰？你在幹嘛？你在氣什麼？」

Like, it all started to come together where it was the catalyst for me to start looking

一切似乎開始恢復正常了，這件事是讓我開始審視自己內在的催化劑

within. Kind of months and months of this toxic relationship, this being aggressive

這數個月來的緊張關係、對人們的攻擊性

with people, constantly being defensive online or offline, that moment was the catalyst for

經常在網路上或現實中的辯護行為，那一次促使我

me to say, “Okay, I need to look within and start seeing what I can do to do things

對自己說：「好，我需要好好審視自己的內心世界，看看我該做些什麼讓一切

differently.”

不同。」

So that’s when I, you know, hired therapists and coaches and went to emotional intelligence

所以從那時開始，我就找了治療師、教練，參加情緒智商工作坊

workshops, started asking my friends and family for feedback. I said, “Give me feedback.

開始向我的朋友、家人尋求回饋。我說：「給我一些建議

I want to hear how I can be better.” I think for so many years I didn't want anyone to

我想聽聽怎麼做我才能變得更好。」我想這麼多年來，我不希望任何人

tell me how to change. I just said this is who I am. Accept me for who I am.

來告訴我怎麼改變。我覺得這就是我。接受我就是這樣的人

Yeah.

是

And that was the catalyst for me wanting to talk about this. Because during that process

而那就是個契機，讓我想要去談論這件事。因為在我打開心胸

of opening up myself and learning about why I was so defensive or guarded or aggressive

以及了解原因的過程，我整個人生是充滿防衛心、處處警惕、很好鬥的

my whole life – now, listen. I was a very loving, fun guy. You knew me before then.

過去我是一個有愛心、風趣的人，妳之前就認識我了

Absolutely.

完全是

Always loving and fun, but it was like those moments where I was triggered, it was like

總是有愛心、風趣，但就在某些時刻我被觸發了

I didn’t know how to turn it off.

而我不知道該如何停止

Yeah.

是

And I never understood why.

而我從來不懂為什麼

And then it sounds like from reading the book, there was also a pivotal moment as you were

聽起來我們從書中可以得知，也有一些重要的關鍵時刻

searching in your own journey and starting to discover, “oh, my goodness. How do I

當你在探索自己的人生旅程時，「噢，我的天，我該怎麼釋放這憤怒的情緒？

release this anger? How do I not have these triggers? How do I find real happiness? Because

如果沒有這些契機怎麼辦？我要怎麼找到真正的快樂？因為這些該死的唯物主義

all the bullshit materialism clearly ain’t doing it.” You stumbled upon a documentary

都無法幫助我改善現況。」你無意中發現了一部紀錄片

that made a huge impact.

對你產生很大的影響

Yeah, yeah. The Mask You Live In is a powerful documentary that started having these conversations

沒錯，《男孩面具備後的真相》是個很讓人震撼的紀錄片，也因此讓許多諸如此類的對話開始出現

more and more. With boys, with teens, with men in prison, with all types of men and boys

與男孩、青少年、服刑中的男人，與各式各樣的男人與男孩

about how we’ve been developed and conditioned to become men in a certain way.

有關我們是怎麼被以特定方式教導、制約成為一個男人

How ... what it means to be a man in our society, specifically in America. And I think my whole

如何…成為一個「男人」在這社會上代表的意義為何，特別是在美國。而我想我整個人生

life I was conditioned a certain way to act and to not act. You know, when you’re 7

都被制約在該扮演什麼角色以及不該扮演什麼角色中。當你只是個 7 歲小孩

years old and your parents tell you to go be kind at school to kids, and then you're

你的父母告訴你在學校要對其他孩子友好，然後你試著

trying to be nice to people and express yourself and you get shoved in a locker. You say, “okay,

對人們親切以及表達自我，然後你把自己關進箱子裡說：「夠了，

I don't want to do that anymore if I’m not gonna be accepted.”

如果我不能被接納，我就不想再繼續做下去了

Yeah.

沒錯

Not saying that happened to me, but that’s just kind of like the pattern that kids go

這不是發生在我身上，但有很多孩子會經歷這樣的情況

through. Where they’re generous, they’re kind, they’re compassionate, they’re caring,

那些慷慨的、親切的、有同情心的、體貼的孩子

maybe they show emotion, and then they get made fun of.

或許他們曾表現出不悅的情緒，然後就被取笑

Yeah.

沒錯

You know, in the sports teams growing up you weren’t allowed to show emotion. You weren’t

妳知道，在運動團隊裡成長，是不能有任何情緒在的，你不能哭

allowed to cry, because men don't cry. And the names that you’re called for even acting

因為男人不能哭。然後你會被取綽號，你有任何

like you have any emotions or like you’re sensitive at all was that you were less than

情緒出現，或是你敏感了點，都會顯得你沒有男子氣概

a man. They would call you all sorts of names. And so just to fit in, just to be accepted

他們會幫你取那一類綽號，所以你就是得適應，就得被同儕

by your peers, you had to act a certain way to be cool or to fit in. And I think for me

接納，你必須扮演好「男人」的角色或適應它。

that carried on into other areas of my life. I couldn’t just turn it off after those three hours of practice.

我想我也將這樣的情況帶到我生活中的其他領域。我沒有辦法在 3 小時的練習時間結束後停止角色扮演

Yeah.

沒錯

Then it was with my family at home. I had to act cool. It was with my girlfriends, I

然後跟我的家人相處時，我必須要很酷。跟我的女朋友相處時

had to act a certain way. It was with guy friends. I never fully opened up with guys.

我也要扮演該有的樣子。跟同性朋友也是，我從來沒有展現真實的自我在他們面前

I didn't have one good guy friend where I could tell anything.

我沒有一個真正的同性好友是可以無話不談的

I think 50% of men feel that they don't have a guy friend that they can share stuff with,

我想有一半的男人會覺得他們沒有一個同性好友可以吐苦水

whereas women in general, I see you guys getting together every day and talking about things

但是通常女人不會如此，我看妳們每天相處在一起，討論一些