the endless wars and the burgeoning homelessness?

和急速增加的無家可歸不需負責的話呢?

What if rather these are just symptoms born out of an outdated social structure?

如果這些都只是過時的社會結構誕生出的症狀又該如何?

That's the revolutionary idea behind the explosive Zeitgeist documentary trilogy.

這是衝擊性的《時代精神》紀錄片三部曲背後的革命性思想

Since the first movie's release in 2007,

自從第一部電影在2007年發布

these documentaries have been translated into 40 different languages,

這些紀錄片已翻譯成40種不同的語言

and have been seen by hundreds of millions of people around the world.

且世界各地成千上萬的人皆已看過

But the ideas brought forward by the documentaries quickly transcended film

但是這些紀錄片帶來的想法很快地超越了影片本身

and spawned The Zeitgeist Movement: a global-sustainability, advocacy organization

並催生了「時代精神運動」:一個倡導永續性的全球組織

that's revolutionizing the way people think and act.

正在徹底改變人們的思維方式和行為

Now, the filmmaker will be re-energizing the movement

現在 此系列的電影製片人 將重新為此運動

with yet another series entitled 'Interreflections'.

注入新活力 製作另一新系列影片 名為「Interreflections」

Here to talk about the 'Culture In Decline',

但我們在這裡要談論《衰敗中的文化》系列影片

The Zeitgeist Movement and where there may be a glimmer of hope,

及「時代精神運動」 並提供一線希望

I'm joined by the filmmaker himself, Peter Joseph.

製片及導演彼得·約瑟夫 加入今天與我的對話

Peter, thanks so much for coming on. - It's my pleasure, Abby, thank you for having me.

彼得 非常感謝你的蒞臨 -這是我的榮幸 艾比 謝謝你邀請我

- First of all, I think that these movies should be essential viewing

-首先 我認為這些影片是地球上每一個人

for everyone on the planet because you really present these concepts

都必須觀看的影片 因為就你表達的方式 你真的呈現出

that are not so much new or revolutionary as they are just glaringly obvious truths

這些概念 與其說是新穎或革命性的 倒不如說它們只是

in the way you articulate them, Peter, but I wanted to get into how you got started.

再明顯不過的真理 但彼得 我想了解你如何開始這些行動

As someone who worked in Wall Street and advertising, when did you step back

身為在華爾街和廣告業工作過的人 你是從何時決定退一步

and analyze your own role in society and decide to radically change course?

分析自己在整個社會中的角色 並決定從根本上改變人生歷程?

- Great question; it was a slow evolution really.

-很棒的問題 這真的是一個緩慢的進化

Like many people brought up in this culture, you end up with

就像很多在這種文化中長大的人一樣 你最終會遵循

a self-interest driven mechanism.

一種由自我利益驅動的機制

I came from a middle class family; we had no real wealth.

我來自一個中產階級的家庭 我家並不算富有

I came into the world, I went to school, I dropped out

我來到這個世界 我上學 但我退學了

due to debt problems like many do today

就像現在許多人因為就學/就業方面

in the educational college/career problem that we have

有許多的債務問題

(most college debt is the peak of bankruptcy

(總的來說 大部份大學債務

coupled with medical debts, in aggregate),

再加上醫療債務是破產的高峰期)

and I began to realize that there's something going on with this system.

然後我開始意識到這個社會體系有一些問題

I did stuff with Wall Street and advertising trying to keep my self-preservation going,

我替華爾街和廣告業工作 試圖讓我明哲保身

and finally it dawned on me when I made this catharsis film in 2007

然後當我在2007年製作電影作為宣洩時 我終於恍然大悟

just called 'Zeitgeist', which became 'Zeitgeist: The Movie'.

這部電影稱為《時代精神》 之後變成《時代精神:電影》

It was a frustration piece that I made, it just sort of exploded in my mind

這是我在沮喪時的創作 有點像在我心中炸開某個點

to the extent that I don't even know where it came from to be frank.

其威力之大 坦白說我甚至不知道那種感覺從何出現

It was a big catharsis that I did which I threw up online.

當我把它在網路上發表時 這是一種很大的宣洩

It became viral because I think people identified with the same issues and themes,

它變得爆紅 因為我想人們對同樣的議題和主題心有戚戚焉

and then that triggered where I am today. I continue to move forward

然後這些啟發造就了今天的我 接著我利用代表性的媒體

with representative media that is both entertaining

發展下去 而它們就其追尋的品質而論

and value-shifting in the quality that it pursues,

是既有趣且轉變人們價值觀的

but also extremely educational and ultimately activist-oriented,

但也極具教育性 最終少不了行動者導向

and that's the whole purpose of my existence at this point.

這一點就是我目前全部的存在目的

- Thanks for explaining that; let's get right into this. With the elections

-感謝你的解釋 讓我們直接進入主題 大選不到兩週

coming up in less than two weeks, let's talk about the two-party system

即將來臨 讓我們來談談你最近的影片

which you explore a little bit in a recent video that you made, called 'What Democracy?'.

《啥鬼民主?》 你在裡面探討了一點點兩黨政治的系統

What purpose does this system serve to control the population?

這套系統達成什麼目的來控制人口?

Do you advocate people to completely remove themselves

你主張人們完全不參與選舉過程?

from the electoral process, or do you see some merit in supporting

或你看到在支持第三方候選人和在地化政治

third party candidates and local politics?

有可取之處?

- I think we have to deal with what we have at the moment.

-我認為 我們必須處理現在的問題

People should be supporting referendums

人們應該支持公投

because that's a form of direct democracy.

因為這是直接民主的一種形式

But the aristocracy game that has emerged,

但貴族遊戲已經出現

which is an outgrowth of basically the economic system

基本上這是經濟體系的產物

which inherently generates hierarchy, is completely misunderstood.

本質上產生了階級 但人們完全誤解此遊戲

We think we're in a different paradigm today than we were

我們以為我們處在一個

during the age of kings and queens, but we're really not.

不同於有國王和王后的時代 但其實不然

The kings and queens are behind the scenes and operate within the business/

其實這些「國王/王后」都躲在幕後

industrial enterprise, which is the driving mechanism

在商業/企業內部中運作 這當然是我們所擁有的

of all the values and institutions we have.

所有價值觀及制度的驅動機制

The figureheads: the elections, the presidents, the Congress,

傀儡:選舉 總統 國會

they serve as 'tools' to perpetuate

這些都是作為他們的「手段」

the real driver of our economic system

以延續我們經濟制度的真正推手

which is the monetary market economy itself.

也就是金融貨幣市場經濟本身

Those values that are there confuse people,

那些價值觀讓人混淆

and they think that when they go into a voting booth and elect somebody

人們以為當他們進入投票亭並投票給某人時

that they're going to change something. But if you look at the historical record

他們便能改變一些情況 但你若回頭看看歷史紀錄

(which many have not, especially since the beginning of America),

(不幸的是許多並沒有 特別是從美國建國開始)

very little change has occurred.

真的 當涉及到任何個人的選舉

Really, when it comes to the election of any single individual,

或國會或任何的行動集團:國會 制度等

or the conglomerate actions of the Congress or whatever parliament institution,

幾乎沒有改變已發生

this statistical element is lost unfortunately.

不幸地 我們已失去這種統計數據

This isn't projection to say that "Oh it's just to be cynical

這不是假設說:「哦 這只是憤世嫉俗

and say it doesn't matter if you vote," this is proven.

而且你是否投票也沒差」 這是經過證明的

The effect of these elections is not given the correct gravity

人們並未賦予這些選舉的效果適當的重視

because it's very small. I'd say maybe 10%

因為影響力非常小 我會說也許只有10％

is how effective the election of a new president really may be.

才是對於選出新總統可能是真正有效的

- Exactly, and it also serves to disempower

-沒錯 它也有助於削弱人們的力量

and disillusion people into thinking that they do have a choice,

並迷惑人們以為他們確實有選擇

and every 4 years nothing changes.

當然 每4年選舉一次依然沒有什麼變化

It really is stifling humanity in that sense.

在這種意義上確實扼殺人性

When people look at the current trajectory of the world,

彼得 當人們看著世界的當前趨勢

it's obvious that we're pretty much on a crash course

很明顯 我們幾乎在崩潰的過程中

based on a model of unsustainable growth, Peter.

根植於不永續增長的模式

When people look at global capitalism

當人們看到全球資本主義

some argue that "It's not a free and fair market,

有些人認為:「這不是一個自由和公平的市場;

if cronyism were removed from the equation, capitalism would work."

如果把裙帶關係從原則中刪除 資本主義就有效」

But is the two-tiered, just in that we're seeing today, the plutocratic governance

但我們今天所看到的不公正[司法體制] 在財團治理

and endless war for resources, an inevitability of the capitalist model?

和無止盡的資源爭奪戰底下 是資本主義不可避免的模式嗎?

- Unfortunately, I would have to declare that it is.

-不幸的是 我必須聲明 它是

I know it's a heated subject and people love to argue with me.

我知道這是一個別人愛跟我爭論的議題

I've had endless debates with people who say that the state is the problem,

我已跟主張「國家或法規是問題」的人們

or regulation, and that the market should just be 'free' to do whatever it wants.

爭論過無數次 他們認為市場應該是能「自由」隨心所欲的

I argue back that the market is as free as it ever was,

我反駁說 市場始終都是一樣自由的 我會說

in fact it's more free I would say.

實際上它現在比以往更自由

At least, in the past, there were restrictions on the market economy

至少在過去 有對市場經濟的限制

and how it could influence the aristocracy's decision

以及它如何影響貴族政府的決定

to basically rule everything through war.

基本上是透過戰爭來統治一切 再說一次

Nothing has changed in this regard.

在這方面並無任何改變

You go back to feudalism and you have the same tendency.

若回顧封建主義 便能看到同樣趨勢

But the idea that something can be regulated

但「可以控管某些東西」的這種想法

in a system that is inherently corrupt, in my view,

在我看來 在本質上就是腐敗的系統裡...

a system that clearly says that you can get money

一個系統明確主張 你可以得到錢

and have the freedom to do whatever you want with it,

並能自由使用

hence the Supreme Court decision that says that

因此 最高法院裁定

spending money for political campaigns is equated to free speech.

在政治競選活動中花錢 實際上等同於言論自由

This delusion that we've come up with,

我們已提出的這種錯覺

to say that we can spend money for whatever purpose possible

說我們可以不管出於什麼目的而花錢

and influence anything, is at the core of the vast corruption we see.

並儘可能影響任何東西 正是我們看到的廣大腐敗現象中的核心

You can go back to Marx and Thorstein Veblen, you can go back

你可以回到馬克思 回到凡勃倫

to all sorts of thinkers in the early 20th century who,

回到20世紀初期的各種思想家們

despite their criticisms, were on to something with this.

儘管他們受到批評 但都察覺到此點

It is unfortunate how fast people are to shut down this idea.

但很不幸 人們快速拒絕這種想法

My friend Lee Camp has a famous joke:

我的朋友李肯普有個著名的笑話:

"We applaud politicians now,

「我們現在為政治家鼓掌

that come and tell us that they're not going to give us health insurance in America,"

然後他們就來告訴我們 在美國他們『不會』給我們健康保險」

or universal healthcare in America.

或在美國的全民醫療

Why? Because this delusion of socialism has come forward.

為什麼? 因為關於社會主義的幻覺已出現

Any type of communal attribute which isn't related to money,

因此 若有任何不涉及金錢及金錢「自由」的

and the 'freedom' of money, now is being misconstrued

「共有/公有屬性」 現在都正被人們所誤解

as something that will lead to tyranny or oppression.

視為將導致暴政和壓迫的東西

We have F.A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises,

我們有F. A.哈耶克和米塞斯

and all these economic philosophers that have compounded this notion,

而所有這些經濟哲學家加重了這種觀念

and that's one of the core 'religious rituals'

這就是既有政治結構的

of the political establishment to reinforce this idea that freedom

核心「宗教儀式」之一 用來加強

and democracy is equated to money.

金錢等於自由和民主此想法

This has justified the vast majority of wars;

這點合理化了絕大多數戰爭

it justified the disregard for the growing homeless

也合理化了美國中不斷增長的

and poverty population in America, and across the world.

對街友和貧困人口的漠視 全世界亦如是

It has also brainwashed people to disregard humanity on a global scale.

這也洗腦了全球人類去漠視他人

We have 1 - 3 billion people either starving to death or in abject poverty,

全球有10到30億人只能餓死或處於絕對淒慘的貧困

and we don't care about them because our psychology now is so perverted

但我們不關心他們 因為我們現在的心理是如此變態

that we can just dismiss them as some anomaly

以致於我們可以就是將他們視為異端而拒斥

in this social-darwinistic view that we've concocted for ourselves,

我們為自己拼湊這種社會達爾文主義觀點

which unfortunately goes back to Adam Smith.

這點不幸地追溯到亞當·史密斯

- Absolutely, it does seem we are indoctrinated

-當然 它似乎確實正在灌輸我們

with this line of thinking. Anything alternative to that is bad,

這種思路觀念 即任何替代方案是壞的

as we've learned through pretty much every institution

正如我們已差不多了解了 我在此國家中

that I've experienced growing up in this country, and I'm sure around the world.

成長時經歷到的每一個機構 我很肯定世界各地亦然

Why is it that people adhere so strongly

鑑於21世紀的科技發展

to these archaic, political and religious institutions

豐富可得的知識有助於

in the light of the 21st century advancements in technology,

拓展人類的集體意識

the vast knowledge available to expand humanity's collective consciousness?

但人們為何如此強烈堅持這些過時的想法 政治和宗教機構?

It seems that we constantly regress back to what we're comfortable with

看來 我們不斷倒退回到我們的舒適圈

even though they've been proven, historically, to have monumental failures.

即使已經證明 歷史上它們有巨大的失敗

- Yes. I call it a move from superstition to science.

-是的 我把它稱作由迷信到科學的過程

If you look at the social structure,

如果你看一下社會結構 真的

it really goes back so far,

迷信由來以久

and it discludes so many modern advancements

[排除]了這麼多現代的進展

that people's traditional values are so caught up

因此人們的傳統價值觀陷入困局

in the voting process, in the delegation of authority,

只能在投票過程中選出代表

and in the general subservience patterns of the peasants,

顯現在大眾普遍的從屬模式中

which is what the majority of humanity unfortunately is.

不幸的是 這正是大多數人的現狀

They accept it because it's what they've always known and seen.

他們會接受是因為 那一直是他們所知與所見之物

Naturally, people fear change (it's no psychological anomaly),

當然 人們害怕改變(這很正常)

but I think the big issue here is education.

但我認為 這裡最大的問題是教育

People need to understand what's possible and the root causes

人們需要了解 在未來什麼是可能的

of all the problems out there. They don't understand

及現有問題的根源就在那裡 但他們不明白

the prosperity-driven effects that can come from science and technology,

由豐盛驅動的效果能來自科學及科技

and not just from the gadgets, etc. , but if we actually applied

不只一些小工具的效用 但如果我們確實應用這些

these basic, near empirical principles to social governance,

基本的 以接近實證的原則來管理社會

we would end up with a completely new social order.

則我們最終會得到一個全新的社會秩序

You can call it Natural Law, Resource-Based Economy,

你可以稱之為:「自然法則/資源導向型經濟

basically taking this construct of what works.

基本上採取有用的事物來建構社會

Like an airplane that flies, we build society like an airplane,

像是造一架能飛的飛機 我們建立社會就像造飛機

as an engineered type of concept. There's really no other way.

用一種工程計畫的概念 真的沒有其它有效辦法

We live in anarchy system; that's the best way to describe it.

我們目前生活在無政府狀態的制度 這是形容它的最好方式

We live in a system where each individual is given this bizarre power

我們生活在一種體系裡 其中每個個體都有奇特的能力

to make their own decisions under the assumption that in concert

做出決定 並假設整個社會將和諧地

the whole of society is going to work out for itself.

找出自己的出路

It's provably false, that's why you have

這點可能是錯誤的 這就是為何

1% of the population owning 40% of the planet's wealth,

1％的人擁有此星球40％的財富

because the value system disorder, the psychology generated by this system

因為價值觀的紊亂 而由此系統產生的心態

completely disallows any type of balance to occur

完全禁止任何類型的社會結構平衡

in a structural sense. Sustainability and public health

因此 永續性和公眾健康

are thrown out the window in this model.

這些問題在此模型裡 都拋到了九霄雲外

Not only because of the values you denote and people's fear,

這不僅是因為你呈現的價值觀和人們的恐懼

but because the system itself keeps compounding

也因為舊有的社會體系 一而再 再而三地

the same old, archaic values and fears over and over again.

不斷加劇陳舊過時的價值觀和恐懼

That is the central problem and why The Zeitgeist Movement does everything it can

這就是問題的重點 及時代精神運動就教育意義而言

in an educational sense, why I make the films that I do,

為何要盡一切所能 及我為何製作電影和媒體的原因

to really try to drill this home, and to inspire others out there

以真正試圖讓人們去了解 同時也希望激勵在外面的人們

to begin the same drive. I could talk about a larger project

發起相同的行動 如果你想聽

that the movement's working on if you'd like to hear about it. - Absolutely.

我可以討論此運動正在從事的更大計畫 -當然可以

Let's get into that in one second, I just wanted to say, it does seem like it's the fear

讓我們來快速看看 我只想說 似乎就是恐懼

that really drives us; the fear to not...

在驅動著我們 恐懼不能...

I guess these archaic institutions keep us stifled,

(我想這些古老的體制讓我們窒息)

the fear of control of our own lives, I guess,

恐懼失去對自己生活的控制 大概吧

when we really do have so much power, Peter,

當我們確實擁有這麼大的力量時 彼得

but let's talk about The Zeitgeist Movement. You really advocate action;

但現在讓我們來談談時代精神運動 你是真的發起行動

really, it's a revolution of the mind, of ideas.

真的 這是一種心靈及思想的革命

How do we stop this global empire from crushing us and the planet,

我們如何阻止這全球帝國粉碎我們和這個星球?

which is pretty much the course that we are currently on;

而目前我們差不多就在這樣的過程中...

what is The Zeitgeist Movement advocating and how can people get involved?

時代精神運動倡導的是什麼? 人們又該如何參與?

- Yes, I agree with you. It's a revolution of values, that's the real revolution.

-是的 我同意你的看法:這是價值觀的革命 這才是真正的革命

As far as what people can do,

至於大家可以做什麼...

The Zeitgeist Movement attempts to take the lowest grassroots level possible.

時代精神運動試圖儘可能採取最基層的方式來運作

We want to get important, very technically-viable

我們希望用技術上非常可行的方式(而非不確定)

and non-speculative information out for people to digest.

將這些重要訊息傳播給人們來消化

With other programs that we do, we have our numerous event days for awareness;

加上我們從事的其它計劃 我們有眾多活動日來提升大眾意識

in March, we'll have our Zeitgeist Day event. The global event will be

在三月份 我們有「時代精神日」的活動 今年的全球活動

in Los Angeles this year, but we have about 400 sympathetic events

將在洛杉磯舉行 而且我們在世界各地也大約有400個

all over the world, across usually about 70 countries on average,

同步支持的活動 平均在約70個國家舉行

every time we do this, this will be the 4th year of it.

我們每次都這樣做 這將是第4年

But all of those kind of intellectual exercises aside,

但除了所有這類型的智識及洞見分享

there's another project that we are doing called the Global Redesign Institute.