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  • - And to help me sort things out in addition is Peter Joseph

    此外 幫助我理清頭緒的還有彼德·約瑟夫

  • founder of the Zeitgeist Movement

    時代精神運動的創建人

  • Peter, I know that you have put a major critique of the mainstream media

    彼德 我知道你對主流媒體有諸多批判

  • and its coverage of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

    包括了其對佔領華爾街運動的報導方式

  • Lay this out for me. What's your biggest beef

    對我解釋一下 從我們一直看到的

  • with what we've been seeing in the Occupy Wall Street movement

    佔領華爾街運動之中 你最大的抱怨是什麼

  • and how it's been covered?

    以及它是如何被媒體報導的?

  • - Needless to say the mainstream media is doing

    不用說 主流媒體總是在做著

  • what it always does best and that's maintaining the status quo.

    他們最在行的事 即維持現狀

  • It's not a far-fetched understanding to see that the values

    不難理解並看到

  • that are perpetuated by this system that are associated with wealth generation

    目前體系所延續的價值觀 與創造財富有關

  • and the corporations that run this country are going to do the best they can

    而這些大公司打算盡其所能控制社會

  • to make sure the public is not aware of the growing crisis

    確保人們察覺不到日益嚴重的危機

  • that this economic system is creating across the board.

    即現存經濟體制正創造並蔓延的危機

  • I want to commend RT once again for what I've just seen:

    對於我剛才看到的東西 我想再次讚賞Russia Today

  • It's really wonderful the service that you are providing.

    你們提供的服務真的很棒

  • Mainstream media? I've dismissed it long ago.

    主流媒體? 我很早就放棄了

  • - We appreciate it. We have been out covering this since the first day

    我們感到很榮幸 我們從佔領運動的第一天起就在關注

  • before a lot of people even heard of this, but I will say

    甚至在很多人聽說前就知道了 但我要說

  • that I keep my eyes on what's on the cable networks

    我注意到有線電視網路上

  • and they have started to be out there a little more in terms of covering

    開始有更多的媒體報導開始出現

  • and showing that this is actually going on.

    並展示這件事真的在持續中

  • I do also have to say that I've seen more stories about

    我也必須說我看到更多關於

  • the gap between rich and poor, income and inequality...

    貧富 薪資差距以及不平等的事...

  • You've given up on the mainstream media, but do you think

    你已經放棄了主流媒體 但你認為

  • that after some time, that having this discussion will change things

    過一段時間之後 這些議論會引發變革

  • will lead to a better country?

    並導向更好的社會嗎?

  • - Or a better world. I do think the pressures that are emerging

    -或更好的世界 我確實認為壓力正在浮現

  • are not going to stop. What's been generated with Occupy Wall Street (OWS)

    而且不會停止 佔領華爾街觸及了

  • what underscores that generation: angst, anger.

    這一代人的底線:憂慮和憤怒

  • That 'insurrection' isn't going to stop

    "暴動"將不會停止

  • because of the mechanisms of this system

    因為這個體系的機制

  • (which I'm happy to talk about as we continue) and the mainstream media

    (當我們繼續談這點時我會高興的)和主流媒體

  • will be forced to recognize some attributes of it.

    將被迫從中認知到一些特性

  • But it's always going to be a colored in a particular way

    但將總是會以特定方式被渲染抹黑

  • because that's basically what they have to do.

    因為基本上這就是主流媒體必須做的事

  • That's where their talking points come from.

    這就是他們報導的重點來源

  • But I don't dismiss the mainstream media. I say that in rhetoric.

    但我不是真的拋棄主流媒體 這只是一種說辭

  • Obviously I'm paying attention too or I wouldn't make the commentary that I do

    顯然我也在關注 否則我就無法下評論

  • but I think the public needs to begin to understand

    但我想大眾必須開始瞭解到

  • that having the concentration of corporate power

    企業財團集中的權力

  • ownership of these major, mainstream institutions

    它們擁有這些各大主流機構

  • is always going to produce biased media and it's a natural consequence.

    其媒體總是帶有偏見 但這是自然的結果

  • It's not that the people are unethical who run the mainstream.

    那些經營媒體的人士並非不道德

  • It's just the value that's associated and what they promote.

    只是他們必須宣傳這些有關的價值觀

  • Just like RT and other great more independent avenues

    就像Russia Today和其它很棒的獨立消息來源

  • have values that are much more open, they're much broader

    有著更開放 更廣闊的價值

  • more informed, and therefore you represent actually

    訊息更完整 所以你們代表的是

  • what many people want to see, what the voice of the people may actually be

    許多人真正想看及人們可能的真正聲音

  • as opposed to the filtering that goes through the mainstream.

    而不是經過主流媒體篩選過的東西

  • The entire Occupy Movement began as a blackout

    整個佔領運動一開始像停電一樣

  • and then the outrageous criticisms calling them communists and socialists

    接著有狂暴的批評 攻擊這些人為共產或社會主義者

  • and a bunch of drug addicts or people without jobs and no incentive.

    或是一群吸毒者以及沒有動力的失業者

  • All that stuff went through that phase. Now we have hit a phase

    所有事件都會經過這種階段 現在我們達到了一個

  • where the mainstream is going to pay some type of attention

    主流媒體引導視聽的階段

  • but I want to alert everybody that it's going to be colored

    但我想警示每個人 它將會被渲染抹黑

  • so everyone needs to go to outlets that are not mainstream.

    所以每個人需要找尋非主流的途徑

  • They need to start to frequent blog. They need to frequent

    人們必須開始經常使用部落格 以及經常

  • all of the independent media that has arisen

    使用所有新興的獨立媒體

  • from common people that are reporting.

    即從普通大眾而來的報導

  • Fortunately, we live in a world with everyone having cameras now

    幸運地 我們現在的世界每個人都有相機

  • so it's very easy to go to videoblogs

    所以把影片放到部落格上非常簡單

  • and actually see and digest information yourself.

    自己可以很確實地看到並理解訊息

  • - Or even go to some of these places, some of these parks where people are.

    甚至可以去一些有人聚集的園區

  • It seems like more and more they're happening all around the country.

    似乎在美國有越來越多的活動

  • Peter, I want to talk really quickly about the Zeitgeist Movement.

    彼德 我想非常快地討論一下時代精神運動

  • It encourages also a change in the system.

    它也鼓勵改變目前體系

  • When it comes to some of the things that these protesters on OWS

    當這些抗議者們談及一些事情時

  • are frustrated with: a government with officials that are very much chosen

    會感到很失望 例如政府官員可以使用

  • by the amount of money they can raise, banks being bailed out

    大量募得的資金而當選 銀行可以被援助

  • veterans returning home and not being able to find a job

    但退伍軍人返家後卻沒有一份工作

  • I guess I want to get your take, pick your brain a little bit.

    我想要聽聽你的一點意見

  • What are your solutions to some of these problems?

    你對這些問題的解決方案是什麼?

  • Just to correct the language quickly, it's not 'my' solutions.

    快速澄清一下用字 這不是"我的"解決方案

  • It's solutions that have come about through a very simple technical analysis

    這個解決方案 是經由一個非常簡單的技術分析

  • of what defines society: what creates good public health

    去定義一個社會:如何創造良好的公眾健康

  • good mental health, what we have learned about social management

    與良好的心理健康 當談到我們的科學水平時

  • when it comes to our scientific benchmark.

    我們如何學習社會管理

  • Just to point out before I answer that question, our entire social system

    在我回答問題前 我要指出一點:我們的整個社會體系

  • is based on an archaic view a traditional notion

    是根據一種很久以前

  • that was established long ago.

    建立的古老傳統觀念

  • It's really an extension to feudalism is what the political system is today.

    今日的政治體系 真的只是封建制度的延續

  • The economic system is a socially Darwinistic notion

    經濟體系是社會達爾文主義的概念

  • that there isn't enough to go around, so we have all these mechanisms

    即沒有足夠的物資能分配 所以我們的現有機制

  • built in for scarcity and we now have one billion people starving

    都是為了"匱乏"而建造 現在地球上有十億人正在挨餓

  • on this planet, 3 billion people living on less than $2 a day.

    三十億人口每天開銷不到兩美元

  • You look at the consequences of this system and then you step back

    看看這個體系造成的影響 並退一步思考

  • and you think about what a true economic system might be

    一個真正的"經濟"到底是怎樣的

  • and a train of thought will be established.

    然後就會確立一種新的思路

  • A true economic system is not a system

    真正的經濟體系

  • based on exchange, money and labor for income.

    並不是基於交換 金錢和勞動以得到薪資的體系

  • That's a contrivance that we've concocted through traditional unfoldings

    這是我們從歷史傳統中人為創造出來的

  • as we've learned through time

    當我們隨著時間推移而學習

  • what our place in the world actually is, what we are.

    就會演變成為我們現在的世界處境

  • A true economy, which is what's now emerging in the public mind

    真正的經濟概念 即管理地球本身

  • is the management of the Earth.

    正形成於公眾的意識中

  • A true economy is management of this household that we have

    真正的經濟體系是管理這個我們擁有的家庭

  • and proper management is a technical orientation.

    恰當的管理是一種技術導向

  • Meeting the needs of human population is a technical orientation.

    滿足人類需求是一種技術導向

  • Just as we build an airplane with a very specific design

    就像我們有特定的設計 去建造一架飛機一樣

  • (you can't have too much deviation

    (你不能有太多的偏差

  • or you might injure the efficiency or efficacy of that airplane)

    否則就會傷害飛機的性能)

  • we have to construct society technically.

    我們必須利用技術建構社會

  • I can go on a long tangent about what a technical approach

    我可以談論一長串關於社會管理

  • to the social management may be, but let me just say this:

    可能的技術方式是什麼 我就這樣說吧:

  • If we do not actually begin to manage the Earth's resources

    如果我們沒有開始切實地管理地球上的資源

  • if we do not actually begin to take care of society as it is

    沒有開始切實去照料社會本身

  • we are going to see numerous forms of destabilization occur

    我們將會看到各種不穩定的形態發生

  • systemically breaking down the social order

    全面地破壞社會秩序

  • causing much more chaos than we are beginning to see now.

    造成的混亂 會比我們現在開始看到的還多

  • - Peter, you are speaking in very broad terms.

    彼德 你講的範圍太廣了

  • A total restructuring of society sounds like a great idea

    社會轉型聽起來是個不錯的主意

  • but what about realistically in terms of

    但對於這些荼毒社會的具體問題

  • some of these very specific problems plaguing society right now?

    現實上又是怎樣的?

  • Obviously everyone, especially down there in this movement believes

    顯然每個人 特別是這個運動中的人

  • that an entire restructuring needs to happen

    堅信社會重組需要發生

  • but do you think that there are some things that can happen now?

    但你認為有一些事情是現在可以做的嗎?

  • - Yes, I do think that there are things that can happen now but

    當然 我確實認為有些事現在就可以做 但是

  • the things that will happen now will only be patches

    現在做的將只會是修修補補

  • until the larger order restructuring occurs.

    直到更大的秩序重組發生為止

  • Most of the people in the protest community:

    大部份在抗議社群裡的人們

  • OWS or even in the mainstream activist community

    像是佔領華爾街或甚至主流的活動社群

  • never stop to think about the structure of this system

    從未停下來思考目前體系的結構

  • the structure and the psychology and values

    從結構而來的邏輯和價值觀

  • that come from that structure and what's reinforced.

    以及整個結構所強化的東西

  • That's where the Zeitgeist Movement really comes into play.

    就裡就是時代精神運動真正發揮作用的地方

  • I can list all sorts of things that could alleviate different tensions

    我可以列出一堆緩和各種壓力的方法

  • as far as the debt crisis. First

    就債務問題而言 首先

  • you're going to have to have debt forgiveness across the board

    如果你期望停止癌症般增生的債務

  • if you expect to stop the cancer of debt growth. That's it.

    你就要減免一切債務 就這麼簡單

  • The entire system is based on debt being created

    整個體系是基於債務的產生

  • money being created out of debt, interest charged upon it

    錢從債務中被創造 並從中徵收利息

  • so you have boom, your black hole:

    所以你的窟窿就大了:

  • instant, exponentially increasing, unstoppable, debt growth, period.

    迅速 成倍 不停的債務增長 就這樣

  • That's it. It's structural to the system.

    這就是目前體系的結構

  • How many people are talking about that? Not that many.

    有多少人正談論這一點? 並不多

  • - I think a lot of these protesters are talking about

    我想許多這些抗議者正在談論

  • this system needs to change. Most people are just still very unsure

    這個體系需要改變 但大多數人仍然非常不確定

  • how that happens... Unfortunately we're out of time.

    要如何實現... 遺憾的是我們沒有時間了

  • Peter Joseph, founder of the Zeitgeist Movement.

    彼德·約瑟夫 時代精神運動的創建者

- And to help me sort things out in addition is Peter Joseph

此外 幫助我理清頭緒的還有彼德·約瑟夫

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彼得·約瑟夫佔領華爾街| “RT電視台”2011年10月27日[債該死運動] (Peter Joseph on Media & Occupy Wall Street | 'Russia Today' Oct 27, 2011 [The Zeitgeist Movement])

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