what do they feel is the downside

他們認為讓北京政府主導

of having Beijing in charge?

會有什麼缺點？

It makes us -

會讓我們…

It doesn’t make us stronger.

沒辦法讓我們更強大

I mean the people.

我指人民

It makes us in the fringe

它使人民處於

of the game of power.

一場權力遊戲的邊緣

Hi, welcome to China Uncensored,

歡迎收看《中國解密》

I’m your host Chris Chappell.

我是主持人 Chris Chappell

I’m here in Macau,

我目前人在澳門

China’s other Special Administrative Region.

中國另一個特別行政區

Like neighboring Hong Kong,

如同鄰近的香港

Macau is supposed to be run under China’s

澳門照理來說也該遵循著

One Country, Two Systems policy.

一國兩制的運作方式

And like with Hong Kong,

但和香港一樣

the one country thing is definitely true,

在「一國」這方面絕對是真的

but the two systems part—less so.

但至於「兩制」嘛，就不一定了

But unlike in Hong Kong,

不過與香港不同的是

the democratic movement here in Macau

澳門當地的民主運動

is small.

規模很小

Most people seem content

大多數的人似乎甘於

to let the Communist Party have its way

照著中共的規則走

in exchange for economic prosperity.

以換取經濟的繁榮

You know that draconian anti-subversion law,

還記得 2013 年那個嚴厲的反顛覆法

Article 23,

簡稱第 23 條

that half a million Hong Kongers protested against in 2003?

引發了 50 萬名香港人抗議嗎？

Well, in Macau,

這個嘛，澳門早在

it was passed in 2009

2009 年便通過該法案了

without much fuss.

而且幾乎沒什麼人抗議

Dissidents here,

不過澳門的反對黨

perhaps even more so than in Hong Kong,

比起香港

are fighting an uphill battle against the status quo.

面對的是更艱困的逆境

So naturally,

想當然耳

I just had to come here and talk with someone

我一定要來這裡與同樣

who shares my passion for uphill battles

熱衷於在艱困逆境中

against the status quo.

改變現狀的人談話

I sat down with Scott Chiang,

我訪問了鄭明軒

President of the New Macau Association,

澳門最主要民主派非政府組織

a major pro-democracy NGO in Macau.

新澳門學社的現任理事長

Thanks for joining me, Scott.

明軒，謝謝你參與這次的訪談

Why don’t you tell us about

請幫我們簡單介紹

the New Macau Association.

新澳門學社

Well, it’s been one of the, uh,

新澳門學社是個…

People says it’s a flagship democratic association

人們說它是澳門的龍頭

in Macau.

民主協會

I don’t know.

我不知道

We’ve been here since the early 90s.

我們從 1990 年代初期就已成立

It’s founded by a bunch of

新澳門學社是由一群

very passionate people

很有熱忱

who care about the future of Macau

而且關心澳門的人們所創立的

because it’s just before the handover

它成立的時間點剛好是在澳門回歸之前

and it’s just after what happened in ’89

也剛好在 1989 年的

in Tainanmen Square.

天安門事件之後

And people genuinely concerned about our future

有許多人都真的很擔憂澳門

under Chinese rule.

在中國統治下的未來發展

Younger generation - I’m part of it -

包括我在內的年輕一代，

emerges in the recent years,

在最近幾年逐漸崛起

and we want to make democrats - true democrats -

我們希望澳門的民主派

survive in Macau in the coming generations.

真正的民主派能一代傳一代

So this organization has been around for a long time.

既然這個政黨已經成立了蠻長一段時間

How have you seen the situation in Macau change

你對於澳門從 1999 年移交以來的變化

since the handover in 1999?

有什麼看法？

Macau has been in ruins in my childhood.

在我小時候，澳門形同廢墟

The 90s is not one of our brightest hours.

1990 年代的澳門並不是很出色

So the expectation was low in the time of handover.

所以在移交時，人們的期望很低

This is in contrast to what happened in Hong Kong.

這與香港移交時的情況剛好相反

And soon after that,

不久之後

we have the opening up of the casino industry.

我們對外開放了博弈產業

And that, adding up with the lot people, tourists,

再加上許多人

coming from mainland China,

也就是來自中國的旅客

gave us what is called the Golden Decade.

帶給了澳門所謂的「黃金十年」

Well now we have the GDP exceeding

目前我們的國內生產總額 (GDP) 仍舊超越

many developed countries.

許多已發展國家

And yes, that set a lot of people very satisfied.

沒錯，這讓許多人非常安於現況

And that also denied a lot of chance that we actually had

但也因此錯失了許多

to fight for our own rights

爭取權利的機會

because people said, “Oh,

因為人們會說：「噢

we’re having a good time,

我們現在過得很好啊

so why don’t we shut up,

所以何不乖乖閉嘴

and enjoy it while it lasts?”

享受當下的美好時光呢？

So people feel things are better now,

所以人們覺得在中共的統治下

under Communist rule?

澳門的生活比較好？

Naturally.

那當然

And when they acknowledged

而一旦人們承認

the good times come from mainland tourists,

內地的遊客帶來許多好處

and they will think again, when they try to criticize

他們在批評北京、甚至是地方政府前

China or the local government, even -

便會再三考慮

because they know they have the endorsement of Beijing,

因為他們希望能維持北京政府對他們的支持

and they know that Macau’s fate,

而且在他們的內心深處，也認為

in their mind,

澳門的命運

is in the hands of the privileged -

是掌握在享有特權的人的手裡

not in themselves.

而不是在人民手中

I have to say that, sadly,

可悲的是，我不得不說

that’s the truth about many local people.

許多當地人都對此深信不疑

The younger generation are feeling

幸好，年輕的一代

more strongly and strongly and strongly that

越來越強烈的

they need to have a say in what goes on in their town.

認為他們必須當家作主

So I still see hope in that.

所以我覺得依舊是有希望的

These young people,

這些年輕人

what do they feel is the downside

他們認為讓北京政府主導

of having Beijing in charge?

會有什麼缺點？

It makes us -

會讓我們…

It doesn’t make us stronger.

沒辦法讓我們更強大

I mean the people.

我指人民

It makes us in the fringe

它使我們處於

of the game of power.

一場權力遊戲的邊緣

That is one of the things

而這就是我們必須

we want to fight against.

抗爭的事情之一

To change people’s minds and show them,

我們希望改變人們的想法，讓他們知道

no, when you fight it,

不，你得反擊

you may stand a chance.

這樣才有機會

But if you just sit home and wait,

如果你就只是坐以待斃

nothing will happen.

狀況永遠不會好轉

So how does the political situation in Macau

所以相較於香港，澳門的

compare to Hong Kong?

政治現況如何呢？

Macau has a very robust apolitical tradition,

傳統上，澳門人普遍對政治很冷漠

so to say,

也就是說

because not that people are not talking about politics.

人們並非不討論政治

They do,

他們會討論

and they may know more than you might suspect.

而且可能比你預期的還要更瞭解政治

But they fail to connect what is in the news

但他們無法和新聞事件做連結

and what they need to do to change it.

也不清楚他們能做什麼來改變現狀

They may be very openly criticizing Obama.

他們可能會公開批評歐巴馬

They may have a strong opinion against Trump.

或是對川普表達強烈不滿

But they wouldn’t be the same open and vocal,

但是當牽涉到地方政治時

criticizing personnel when it comes to local politics.

他們卻不用相同的開放 直言不諱的口吻來批評政府

Yes, they may complain in local cafes

是的，他們可能會在當地的咖啡廳裡

about this and that,

抱怨東抱怨西

the traffic, housing price…

例如交通和房價這類的事

But when you say,

但當你說

“Hey, why don’t we do something change that?”

嘿，那我們何不做點什麼來改變它呢

They say, “Nah, it doesn’t work.

他們會說：「哎，那行不通的

I’ve been around more than you - longer than you.

我見過的世面比你還多、比你還久

And I know they don’t work.”

所以我肯定這是行不通的」

That is the general sentiment,

至少老一輩的

at least for the older generations.

都普遍會這樣想

And that sentiment shaped the fate of Macau

而這樣的想法塑造出澳門

for the last decades.

過去幾十年以來的命運

How about the younger generation?

那年輕一代呢？

The younger generation?

年輕一代嗎？

We are more…

我們較…

We are better educated.

我們受到比較好的教育

And many of my friends,

我的朋友之中有不少人

when they have the chance to go abroad,

當他們有機會出國

and get a job there,

並在當地找到一份工作時

they choose not to go back

他們會選擇不再回澳門

because they know Macau is not suitable for them

因為他們知道澳門不適合他們

or for their offspring.

也不適合他們的後代

But for those who return,

但對於那些返回家鄉的人

I believe there is hope in them because

我相信他們是有希望的

when they had the chance,

因為當他們有移民國外的機會

and they choose to return to their hometown,

卻選擇留在家鄉時

I expect more from them when it comes to,

我會期待他們能對於

you know,

你知道

changing the place for the better.

改善澳門有更多的貢獻

So how has the implementation of Article 23 in 2009

那麼 2009 年所實施的第 23 條法案

changed Macau?

如何改變澳門呢？

Well, may I disappoint you in saying, “business as usual?”

嗯，如果我說「一如往昔」，你會覺得失望嗎？

Sometimes even we didn’t realize,

有時甚至連我們都沒有意識到

oh, it’s already here

噢，這條法案已經通過

for quite some years.

好幾年了

Yeah, the thing is, when you talk to people saying,

沒錯，實際情況是，當你跟人們說

“Oh, this law is bad because it

「這個法案很不好，因為它

diminished civil liberty,

削弱了公民自由

it gives the administration too much power,

它給政府過多的權力

it makes criminal charges against, you know,

它能讓言論自由變成

freedom of speech -“

一種刑事罪」

And people say, “what are you afraid of,

人們會說：「你是在怕什麼？

if you’re not going to overthrow Beijing?”

反正你又沒打算要推翻北京」

Nonetheless, it is harmful to civil society.

然而，這條法案是對民間社會有害的

But pretty much nobody listened,

但幾乎沒什麼人聽得進去

unlike in Hong Kong.

不像是香港

So do you think Macau still has

你認為澳門還存在著

the One Country, Two System policy?

一國兩制政策嗎？

In the first part, I’m pretty confident.

我只肯定前半部分

And I understand you were recently interviewed by police

我知道你在今年某次的抗議行動之後

after a protest earlier this year.

遭到警方的訊問

Which interview do you mean?

你指的是哪一次的訊問？

How many?

總共有幾次啊？

Are you concerned for your safety?

你是否擔心你的安全？

I lost count, actually.

其實已經多到數不清了

Am I safe in this room?

我在這裡安全嗎？

Should I be seen with you?

我如果被人看到和你在一起，會怎樣嗎？

Well, you film it.

這個嘛，你都在攝影了

I guess that’s true.

也對啦

I should’ve thought about that.

我早該想到這問題的

No, as I told you,

其實不會啦，就像我跟你說的

we were relatively safe,

我們相對來說是安全的

or not worried by those up there

或者說是不需要擔心那些上位者

because we are weak

因為相較於

in comparison to our counterparts in Hong Kong.

另個特別行政區香港，我們的聲勢薄弱

We do not constitute a critical minority in the house

我們在立法會內不構成

of legislation.

關鍵少數

And we don’t mobilize as much as those in Hong Kong.

而且我們的動員力也不如香港

And how do you feel about that perceived weakness?

你如何看待被別人認為很弱小這件事？

It is not just “perceived.”

不只是別人認為而已

It is backed by hard fact.

它同時也具備強而有力的事實根據

And that is both a blessing and curse, right?

這其實是兩面刃，對吧？

Being weak is not a good thing,

弱不是一件好事

but then it kinda protected you from a lot of attacks.

但當個弱者能保護自己免於遭到許多攻擊

And oftentimes we think to ourselves,

我們經常會問自己：

“Have we been doing the utmost that we can do?”

「我們有盡最大努力了嗎？」

We are pretty much the leading democrats in Macau.

我們基本上是澳門最大的民主派

There’s not much competition there.

沒什麼競爭者

Is it because we are doing good enough,

這是因為我們已經做得夠好了

or is it because it’s not a very attractive

或是因為這不是一個非常吸引人的

career path?

人生道路？

Then we have to remind ourselves that we have to

然後，我們必須不斷提醒自己

do better than we have been.

我們要不斷求進步

Being weak can be a motivation.

「弱」也可以是一個動力

What is your hope for the future of Macau?

你對澳門的未來抱持著什麼希望？

Well as I told you,

正如同我所說的

the younger generation has a lot of potential.

年輕一代有許多潛力

Information is easier to obtain now.

現在比以往更容易取得資訊

It’s harder to keep your people blind and deaf

外面一旦發生什麼事情，政府很難將人民

from what’s happening outside.

隔絕在外

And what’s happening in Hong Kong and Taiwan has been a

而香港和台灣目前所面臨到的情況

very, very, very visual alarm

對澳門人來說

for people in Macau.

是個非常非常重要的警訊

Some people will take that as an alert,

有些人會以此作為警惕

saying “we shall not move to that direction.

認為「我們不能犯下同樣的錯誤

Macau is no place for extremists.”

澳門不能容許極端分子的存在」

But then younger generation will see opportunities,

但年輕一代則是看到契機

saying we may not need to do the same thing,

認為我們或許不用重蹈覆轍

but we can, nonetheless, take things into our own hands

但可以將某些權利掌握在自己手中

instead of putting it up to somebody else.

而不是將它拱手讓人

Well thank you again.

再次感謝你

That was Scott Chiang,

這位是鄭明軒

president of the New Macau Association.

新澳門學社的現任理事長

Thank you - thank you.

- 謝謝你 - 謝謝你