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  • One of the most common ways of dividing the world

    譯者: Sandy Li 審譯者: Shelley Krishna R. TSANG

  • is into those who believe

    區分世人,其中一種最常見的做法

  • and those who don't --

    是把他們分成「信者」

  • into the religious and the atheists.

    與「不信者」──

  • And for the last decade or so,

    即「有神論者」和「無神論者」

  • it's been quite clear

    近十年來

  • what being an atheist means.

    何謂「無神論者」

  • There have been some very vocal atheists

    一直相當清晰

  • who've pointed out,

    好些無神論者

  • not just that religion is wrong,

    直言不諱

  • but that it's ridiculous.

    說宗教不僅是錯的

  • These people, many of whom have lived in North Oxford,

    而且還是荒謬的

  • have argued --

    這些無神論者,當中有許多居於牛津北部

  • they've argued that believing in God

    他們主張

  • is akin to believing in fairies

    他們認為,相信上帝存在

  • and essentially that the whole thing

    無異於相信童話內的仙女存在

  • is a childish game.

    究其本質

  • Now I think it's too easy.

    宗教是幼稚的

  • I think it's too easy

    但我認為這說法太淺薄

  • to dismiss the whole of religion that way.

    這樣完全否定宗教

  • And it's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

    過於輕易

  • And what I'd like to inaugurate today

    輕易如甕中捉鱉

  • is a new way of being an atheist --

    今日,我想說的是

  • if you like, a new version of atheism

    無神論者不必如此

  • we could call Atheism 2.0.

    可以說,這是一種嶄新的無神論

  • Now what is Atheism 2.0?

    我們可稱之為「無神論 2.0」

  • Well it starts from a very basic premise:

    何謂「無神論 2.0」?

  • of course, there's no God.

    我們先從最基本的前提說起

  • Of course, there are no deities or supernatural spirits

    是的,世間沒有上帝

  • or angels, etc.

    而且也沒有甚麼聖靈,或超自然的神明

  • Now let's move on; that's not the end of the story,

    也沒有天使之類的東西

  • that's the very, very beginning.

    這不是結論,而是起點

  • I'm interested in the kind of constituency

    我們繼續說下去

  • that thinks something along these lines:

    我對某些人的想法很感興趣

  • that thinks, "I can't believe in any of this stuff.

    他們會想

  • I can't believe in the doctrines.

    「我不相信這些東西」

  • I don't think these doctrines are right.

    「我不接受那些教條」

  • But," a very important but, "I love Christmas carols.

    「我不認為這些教條是對的」

  • I really like the art of Mantegna.

    「可是」這個心理轉折很重要,「我喜歡聖誕歌」

  • I really like looking at old churches.

    「我很喜歡蒙特納的畫作」

  • I really like turning the pages of the Old Testament."

    「我欣賞古老的教堂」

  • Whatever it may be,

    「我很喜歡翻閱舊約聖經」

  • you know the kind of thing I'm talking about --

    諸如此類

  • people who are attracted to the ritualistic side,

    你懂的

  • the moralistic, communal side of religion,

    有些人會被宗教的某部份吸引,比如是儀式

  • but can't bear the doctrine.

    宗教中的倫理,或是裡面普世共享的東西

  • Until now, these people have faced a rather unpleasant choice.

    但受不了那些教條

  • It's almost as though either you accept the doctrine

    直到目前為止,他們總是陷入兩難

  • and then you can have all the nice stuff,

    要麼,你得一併擁護宗教教條

  • or you reject the doctrine and

    才能享有宗教美好的部份

  • you're living in some kind of spiritual wasteland

    要麼,你在否定宗教教條的同時

  • under the guidance of CNN and Walmart.

    便讓自己置身空茫的精神世界裡

  • So that's a sort of tough choice.

    讓CNN和沃爾瑪作你的精神領袖

  • I don't think we have to make that choice.

    二擇其一,真是個困難的選擇

  • I think there is an alternative.

    但我不認為我們一定要非此即彼

  • I think there are ways --

    其實還有另一個可能性

  • and I'm being both very respectful and completely impious --

    我想我們可以

  • of stealing from religions.

    在非常尊重,但並不崇拜宗教的前提下

  • If you don't believe in a religion,

    從中偷師

  • there's nothing wrong with picking and mixing,

    如果你不相信宗教

  • with taking out the best sides of religion.

    大可萃取並融和宗教裡美好的事物

  • And for me, atheism 2.0

    去蕪存菁

  • is about both, as I say,

    在我而言,無神論2.0

  • a respectful and an impious way

    正正是,如我所言

  • of going through religions and saying, "What here could we use?"

    在尊重但不崇拜宗教的前提下

  • The secular world is full of holes.

    檢視宗教的內容,並思考「這裡面有甚麼值得借鏡的?」

  • We have secularized badly, I would argue.

    去宗教化的現世是千瘡百孔的

  • And a thorough study of religion

    我認為,這個社會的去宗教化,做得並不高明

  • could give us all sorts of insights

    透徹地考究宗教

  • into areas of life that are not going too well.

    能讓人生活各方面

  • And I'd like to run through a few of these today.

    獲得不同的啟發

  • I'd like to kick off by looking at education.

    今天我會挑其中幾樣來說

  • Now education is a field

    首先,我們來看看教育

  • the secular world really believes in.

    今時今日

  • When we think about how we're going to make the world a better place,

    我們對教育抱有莫大信心

  • we think education; that's where we put a lot of money.

    我們相信它能使世界更好

  • Education is going to give us, not only commercial skills, industrial skills,

    於是我們向教育投入龐大資金

  • it's also going to make us better people.

    教育所能作的,不只是授與各項職業技能

  • You know the kind of thing a commencement address is, and graduation ceremonies,

    它還會導人向善

  • those lyrical claims

    在開學演辭中,或畢業典禮上

  • that education, the process of education -- particularly higher education --

    常有這種堂皇動人的說法

  • will make us into nobler and better human beings.

    指教育,尤其是高等教育

  • That's a lovely idea.

    使人變得更好更高尚

  • Interesting where it came from.

    很美好的構想

  • In the early 19th century,

    值得探究的是,這構思的來源

  • church attendance in Western Europe

    十九世紀初

  • started sliding down very, very sharply, and people panicked.

    在西歐,上教會的人

  • They asked themselves the following question.

    愈來愈少,流失得很快,大家開始不安

  • They said, where are people going to find the morality,

    大家想知道

  • where are they going to find guidance,

    從此,人們該從何學習倫理

  • and where are they going to find sources of consolation?

    從何得到指引

  • And influential voices came up with one answer.

    從何得到慰藉?

  • They said culture.

    後來,有人認為答案是

  • It's to culture that we should look

    「文化」

  • for guidance, for consolation, for morality.

    我們會從文化獲得

  • Let's look to the plays of Shakespeare,

    指引、慰藉、和倫理

  • the dialogues of Plato, the novels of Jane Austen.

    在莎士比亞的歌劇

  • In there, we'll find a lot of the truths

    柏拉圖《對話錄》和奧斯汀的小說裡

  • that we might previously have found in the Gospel of Saint John.

    我們可以找到許多真理

  • Now I think that's a very beautiful idea and a very true idea.

    許多我們曾經在約翰福音裡找到的真理

  • They wanted to replace scripture with culture.

    從文化中學習真理,我認為是很美好,而且切實的構思

  • And that's a very plausible idea.

    以文化取代宗教

  • It's also an idea that we have forgotten.

    非常可行

  • If you went to a top university --

    但我們早已把這想法拋諸腦後

  • let's say you went to Harvard or Oxford or Cambridge --

    如果你就讀某頂尖大學

  • and you said, "I've come here

    比方說,哈佛、牛津或劍橋

  • because I'm in search of morality, guidance and consolation;

    你說:「我來到這兒」

  • I want to know how to live,"

    「是為了追尋倫理、指引和慰藉」

  • they would show you the way to the insane asylum.

    「我想知道如果好好生活」

  • This is simply not what our grandest and best institutes of higher learning

    旁人會送你進精神病院

  • are in the business of.

    這些尊貴的高等學府

  • Why? They don't think we need it.

    並非為幫人追尋真理而設的

  • They don't think we are in an urgent need of assistance.

    為甚麼?他們認定我們不需要幫助

  • They see us as adults, rational adults.

    我們沒這逼切需要

  • What we need is information.

    我們被視為成人,理智的成人

  • We need data, we don't need help.

    我們被認為只需要資訊

  • Now religions start from a very different place indeed.

    我們只需要數據,毋須幫忙

  • All religions, all major religions,

    宗教的觀點則截然不同

  • at various points call us children.

    所有宗教,所有主流宗教

  • And like children,

    總是稱教徒為「孩子」

  • they believe that we are in severe need of assistance.

    像小孩一樣

  • We're only just holding it together.

    急切地需要扶一把

  • Perhaps this is just me, maybe you.

    我們只是勉力維持現狀

  • But anyway, we're only just holding it together.

    也許只有我是這樣想的,也許你也有如此想過

  • And we need help. Of course, we need help.

    我們只是勉力維持現狀

  • And so we need guidance and we need didactic learning.

    我們需要幫忙,當然,我們需要幫助

  • You know, in the 18th century in the U.K.,

    我們需要指引,我們需要教導

  • the greatest preacher, greatest religious preacher, was a man called John Wesley,

    你知道,十八世紀英國

  • who went up and down this country delivering sermons,

    曾有一位非常非常偉大的傳教士,名為約翰.衛斯理

  • advising people how they could live.

    他走入鄉郊佈道

  • He delivered sermons on the duties of parents to their children

    指導人們如果過活

  • and children to their parents,

    他向人宣導,講父母對子女應有之義

  • the duties of the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich.

    講子女對父母有何責任

  • He was trying to tell people how they should live

    講富人與窮人之間的關係

  • through the medium of sermons,

    透過佈道

  • the classic medium of delivery of religions.

    他教人如何生活

  • Now we've given up with the idea of sermons.

    佈道會是傳播宗教的經典形式

  • If you said to a modern liberal individualist,

    但我們已摒棄佈道會

  • "Hey, how about a sermon?"

    如果你告訴一名自由主義者

  • they'd go, "No, no. I don't need one of those.

    「嘿,想去佈道會嗎?」

  • I'm an independent, individual person."

    他會回應道,「不,不用了,我不需要。」

  • What's the difference between a sermon

    「我是一個獨立的個體。」

  • and our modern, secular mode of delivery, the lecture?

    佈道會和現世用以傳播思想的講課

  • Well a sermon wants to change your life

    有何分別?

  • and a lecture wants to give you a bit of information.

    佈道會嘗試改變你的生命

  • And I think we need to get back to that sermon tradition.

    而講課向你提供更多資訊

  • The tradition of sermonizing is hugely valuable,

    我認為我們應該回到佈道會這傳統

  • because we are in need of guidance,

    這是一項富有價值的傳統

  • morality and consolation --

    因為我們的確需要指引

  • and religions know that.

    道德觀,和慰藉

  • Another point about education:

    宗教懂得人們需要甚麼

  • we tend to believe in the modern secular world

    還有一點關於教育

  • that if you tell someone something once, they'll remember it.

    我們傾向相信在無神的現世裡

  • Sit them in a classroom, tell them about Plato

    你只須把事情說一遍,大家便會記得

  • at the age of 20, send them out for a career in management consultancy for 40 years,

    把二十歲的人們留在課室,說說柏拉圖

  • and that lesson will stick with them.

    然後讓他們在顧問公司打拼四十年

  • Religions go, "Nonsense.

    他們仍會牢牢記住柏拉圖的一課

  • You need to keep repeating the lesson 10 times a day.

    宗教會認為這不可能

  • So get on your knees and repeat it."

    你得每天向他們重複十遍才行

  • That's what all religions tell us:

    跪下,然後重複

  • "Get on you knees and repeat it 10 or 20 or 15 times a day."

    這就是宗教要求我們做的

  • Otherwise our minds are like sieves.

    「跪下,每日重複十到二十遍。」

  • So religions are cultures of repetition.

    否則我們會左耳進右耳出

  • They circle the great truths again and again and again.

    換言之,宗教是重複的文化

  • We associate repetition with boredom.

    重要的真理,一而再,再而三地流傳

  • "Give us the new," we're always saying.

    我們會把「重複」和「沈悶」聯想在一起

  • "The new is better than the old."

    我們老是說「給點新意」

  • If I said to you, "Okay, we're not going to have new TED.

    「新的當然比舊的好」

  • We're just going to run through all the old ones

    如果我告訴:「好吧,我們不會再有新的TED

  • and watch them five times because they're so true.

    我們只會重看已有的TED

  • We're going to watch Elizabeth Gilbert five times

    每天看五次,因為它們說得太對了

  • because what she says is so clever," you'd feel cheated.

    我們將會每天重複聽伊利莎白.喬伯五次

  • Not so if you're adopting a religious mindset.

    因為她的演說實在太機智了。」你會感到受騙

  • The other things that religions do

    但用宗教的角度看,事情便不一樣了

  • is to arrange time.

    除了重複,宗教還會

  • All the major religions give us calendars.

    安排時間

  • What is a calendar?

    所有主要宗教都有曆法

  • A calendar is a way of making sure that across the year

    甚麼是曆法?

  • you will bump into certain very important ideas.

    它是要確保我們在一年中

  • In the Catholic chronology, Catholic calendar,

    總有那麼幾天會重溫一些重要的思想

  • at the end of March you will think about St. Jerome

    對天主教徒而言

  • and his qualities of humility and goodness

    每逢三月最後一天,他們會記起聖葉理諾

  • and his generosity to the poor.

    記起他的謙卑和善良

  • You won't do that by accident; you will do that because you are guided to do that.

    還有他對窮人的慷慨

  • Now we don't think that way.

    你不會無緣無故想起他,那是因為曆法提醒了你

  • In the secular world we think, "If an idea is important, I'll bump into it.

    我們現在不這麼想了

  • I'll just come across it."

    無神的世界裡,我們認為「如果這是一個重要的想法,我終究會遇上的

  • Nonsense, says the religious world view.

    終究會遇上的。」

  • Religious view says we need calendars, we need to structure time,

    不可能,宗教如此認為

  • we need to synchronize encounters.

    宗教認為人們需要曆法,人們需要為此安排時間

  • This comes across also

    人們需要同時紀念

  • in the way in which religions set up rituals

    同樣道理

  • around important feelings.

    宗教為各樣情緒

  • Take the Moon. It's really important to look at the Moon.

    設立各項儀式

  • You know, when you look at the Moon,

    比方說月亮。當你看著月亮時

  • you think, "I'm really small. What are my problems?"

    你知道,當你看著它時

  • It sets things into perspective, etc., etc.

    你會想,「我是很渺小的,我的困擾算甚麼?」

  • We should all look at the Moon a bit more often. We don't.

    它使我們用不同觀點看待事物

  • Why don't we? Well there's nothing to tell us, "Look at the Moon."

    我們都應該多點看月亮,但我們沒有

  • But if you're a Zen Buddhist in the middle of September,

    為甚麼不?因為沒有人提醒我們,是時候注視月亮了

  • you will be ordered out of your home, made to stand on a canonical platform

    但如果你是禪宗佛教徒,每年九月中旬

  • and made to celebrate the festival of Tsukimi,

    你會受呼召離開家門,站到神壇上

  • where you will be given poems to read

    慶祝月見節

  • in honor of the Moon and the passage of time

    你會獲發頌詩

  • and the frailty of life that it should remind us of.

    以歌頌月亮,和時間的流浙

  • You'll be handed rice cakes.

    並感悟生命的脆弱

  • And the Moon and the reflection on the Moon

    你會獲發米餅

  • will have a secure place in your heart.

    於是月亮和它的倒影

  • That's very good.

    便印在你心上

  • The other thing that religions are really aware of

    這一切都很好

  • is: speak well --

    此外,宗教還察覺意到

  • I'm not doing a very good job of this here --

    大家該好好說話

  • but oratory, oratory is absolutely key to religions.

    我並不特別擅長說話

  • In the secular world, you can come through the university system and be a lousy speaker

    但演講,演講絕對是宗教活動的核心

  • and still have a great career.

    在去宗教化的現世,即使完成大學,你的演講還是可以很糟糕

  • But the religious world doesn't think that way.

    但還是能找到工作

  • What you're saying needs to be backed up

    但宗教世界不然

  • by a really convincing way of saying it.

    不管你說甚麼

  • So if you go to an African-American Pentecostalist church

    都得讓人信服

  • in the American South

    如果你去美國南部的非裔美藉教堂

  • and you listen to how they talk,

    出席五旬節會

  • my goodness, they talk well.

    聽聽他們如何演講

  • After every convincing point, people will go, "Amen, amen, amen."

    天啊,說得真好

  • At the end of a really rousing paragraph, they'll all stand up,

    說到動人處,會眾會高呼「阿門,阿門,阿門」

  • and they'll go, "Thank you Jesus, thank you Christ, thank you Savior."

    在一段振奮人心的演辭,會眾會全體起立

  • If we were doing it like they do it --

    然後說「感謝耶穌,感謝基督,感謝救主」

  • let's not do it, but if we were to do it --

    現在如果我們照辦煮碗

  • I would tell you something like, "Culture should replace scripture."

    不用真的做,而是,想像我們會這麼做

  • And you would go, "Amen, amen, amen."

    我說的內容,大概會是「文化應該取代宗教」

  • And at the end of my talk, you would all stand up

    你們合該高呼「阿門,阿門,阿門」

  • and you would go, "Thank you Plato, thank you Shakespeare, thank you Jane Austen."

    在我的演說結束後,你們都會起立

  • And we'd know that we had a real rhythm going.

    然後說「感謝柏拉圖,感謝莎翁,感謝珍.奧斯汀」

  • All right, all right. We're getting there. We're getting there.

    我們有默契,知道一來一回的節奏

  • (Applause)

    好了,好了,快到重點了,快到重點了

  • The other thing that religions know is we're not just brains,

    (掌聲)

  • we are also bodies.

    還有一點,宗教知道人們不止有理性的腦袋

  • And when they teach us a lesson,

    我們還有肉身

  • they do it via the body.

    宗教的教義

  • So for example,

    教徒透過身體學習

  • take the Jewish idea of forgiveness.

    舉例說

  • Jews are very interested in forgiveness

    猶太教中「寬恕」的概念

  • and how we should start anew and start afresh.

    猶太人對「寬恕」很上心

  • They don't just deliver us sermons on this.

    認為寬恕之後是嶄新的開始

  • They don't just give us books or words about this.

    他們不止有文字上的教義

  • They tell us to have a bath.

    不止是書本或口述

  • So in Orthodox Jewish communities, every Friday you go to a Mikveh.

    他們會讓你去洗個澡

  • You immerse yourself in the water,

    在信奉正統猶太教的社區,逢星期五,他們會去淨身池

  • and a physical action backs up a philosophical idea.

    把自己沈沒在水中

  • We don't tend to do that.

    用身體行動實踐哲學理念

  • Our ideas are in one area and our behavior with our bodies is in another.

    我們很少這麼做

  • Religions are fascinating in the way they try and combine the two.

    我們所想,與我們所作,並不一致

  • Let's look at art now.

    宗教引人入勝,因為它能把二者合而為一

  • Now art is something that in the secular world,

    現在讓我們來看看藝術

  • we think very highly of. We think art is really, really important.

    藝術在無神的世界裡

  • A lot of our surplus wealth goes to museums, etc.

    評價很高,我們認為它非常非常重要

  • We sometimes hear it said

    許多剩餘財富都進貢到美術館去

  • that museums are our new cathedrals, or our new churches.

    有這麼一個講法

  • You've heard that saying.

    說美術館是新式教堂

  • Now I think that the potential is there,

    你聽過的

  • but we've completely let ourselves down.

    我認為美術館的確有此潛力

  • And the reason we've let ourselves down

    但我們沒把它發揮出來

  • is that we're not properly studying

    其原因在於

  • how religions handle art.

    我們沒有好好研究

  • The two really bad ideas that are hovering in the modern world

    宗教如何看待藝術

  • that inhibit our capacity to draw strength from art:

    現世有兩個很差勁的想法

  • The first idea is that art should be for art's sake --

    讓我們無法好好發揮藝術的力量

  • a ridiculous idea --

    其一,藝術純為藝術而生

  • an idea that art should live in a hermetic bubble

    荒謬

  • and should not try to do anything with this troubled world.

    說藝術應該高深莫測

  • I couldn't disagree more.

    並毋須回應世界的問題

  • The other thing that we believe is that art shouldn't explain itself,

    我不能苟同

  • that artists shouldn't say what they're up to,

    其二,藝術不應該不證自明

  • because if they said it, it might destroy the spell

    藝術家不應該讓人知道他想表達甚麼

  • and we might find it too easy.

    因為,一旦說穿,藝術品就可能失去它的魅力

  • That's why a very common feeling when you're in a museum --

    讓人覺得不過爾爾

  • let's admit it --

    逛美術館時,你常有這種感覺

  • is, "I don't know what this is about."

    承認吧

  • But if we're serious people, we don't admit to that.

    你常想「我不知道它想說的是甚麼」

  • But that feeling of puzzlement is structural

    嚴肅認真的人都不願意承認

  • to contemporary art.

    在當代藝術世界裡,這種困惑是

  • Now religions have a much saner attitude to art.

    人人共享的

  • They have no trouble telling us what art is about.

    宗教在這方面比較清醒

  • Art is about two things in all the major faiths.

    挑明題旨,毫不扭捏

  • Firstly, it's trying to remind you

    在主要宗教的觀念裡,藝術有兩樣功能

  • of what there is to love.

    首先,它要提醒你

  • And secondly, it's trying to remind you

    世上有何該愛

  • of what there is to fear and to hate.

    其二,它要提醒你

  • And that's what art is.

    世上有何該懼該厭

  • Art is a visceral encounter with the most important ideas of your faith.

    藝術便是如此

  • So as you walk around a church,

    藝術讓人以視覺接觸信仰

  • or a mosque or a cathedral,

    在你逛會堂

  • what you're trying to imbibe, what you're imbibing is,

    或清真寺,或大教堂之時

  • through your eyes, through your senses,

    你正透過雙眼

  • truths that have otherwise come to you through your mind.

    逐漸吸收

  • Essentially it's propaganda.

    平時在學習的教義

  • Rembrandt is a propagandist

    本質上,這是一種鼓吹

  • in the Christian view.

    在宗教的角度來說

  • Now the word "propaganda" sets off alarm bells.

    林布蘭會是一名宣傳人員

  • We think of Hitler, we think of Stalin. Don't, necessarily.

    如今,我們每逢提及「鼓吹」都會惹人警覺

  • Propaganda is a manner of being didactic in honor of something.

    我們會聯想起希特拉和斯大林。但,這是不必要的

  • And if that thing is good, there's no problem with it at all.

    這只是一種宣揚理念的手法

  • My view is that museums should take a leaf out of the book of religions.

    如果理念是好的,這手法本身沒有問題。

  • And they should make sure that when you walk into a museum --

    我認為美術館該向宗教學習

  • if I was a museum curator,

    館長們應該確保當參觀者進入時──

  • I would make a room for love, a room for generosity.

    假設我是一名導遊

  • All works of art are talking to us about things.

    我會設立以「愛」,或「慷慨」為主題的展覽廳

  • And if we were able to arrange spaces

    把所有主題一致的藝術品放在一起

  • where we could come across works

    如果空間充裕

  • where we would be told, use these works of art

    在我們觀賞藝術品的同時

  • to cement these ideas in your mind,

    我們可以同時獲知它的意義為何,並用它們

  • we would get a lot more out of art.

    完滿我們對該主題的理解

  • Art would pick up the duty that it used to have

    我們將會獲益良多

  • and that we've neglected because of certain mis-founded ideas.

    藝術將重新負起

  • Art should be one of the tools

    那個曾一度因被誤導而被摒棄的責任

  • by which we improve our society.

    藝術應該是一個

  • Art should be didactic.

    改善社會的工具

  • Let's think of something else.

    藝術應該具有教化作用

  • The people in the modern world, in the secular world,

    讓我們再想多一點別的

  • who are interested in matters of the spirit,

    在去宗教化的世界裡,有些人

  • in matters of the mind,

    熱衷於精神追求

  • in higher soul-like concerns,

    熱衷於各種思想

  • tend to be isolated individuals.

    熱衷於修養性靈

  • They're poets, they're philosophers, they're photographers, they're filmmakers.

    他們通常是孤身上路

  • And they tend to be on their own.

    他們寫詩,鑽研哲學,攝影,拍戲

  • They're our cottage industries. They are vulnerable, single people.

    他們傾向獨立行動

  • And they get depressed and they get sad on their own.

    他們像小型工作坊,不牢固,獨立於彼此

  • And they don't really change much.

    他們獨自神傷

  • Now think about religions, think about organized religions.

    又無法真正甚麼改變

  • What do organized religions do?

    相比之下,宗教非常團結

  • They group together, they form institutions.

    團結何益?

  • And that has all sorts of advantages.

    教徒走在一起,組成組織

  • First of all, scale, might.

    有很多好處

  • The Catholic Church pulled in 97 billion dollars last year

    首先,規模和力量

  • according to the Wall Street Journal.

    華爾街日報說

  • These are massive machines.

    天主教教會去年籌得97億元

  • They're collaborative, they're branded, they're multinational,

    都是些龐大的架構

  • and they're highly disciplined.

    他們同心合力,出師有名,跨越國界

  • These are all very good qualities.

    組織內高度紀律

  • We recognize them in relation to corporations.

    質素良好

  • And corporations are very like religions in many ways,

    就像大企業一樣

  • except they're right down at the bottom of the pyramid of needs.

    大企業與宗教團體有許多共通點

  • They're selling us shoes and cars.

    唯一分別在於企業所供給的,是位於需求金字塔最底層的物質

  • Whereas the people who are selling us the higher stuff --

    企業向人兜售鞋履和汽車

  • the therapists, the poets --

    而那些滿足我們較高層次需求的人,包括

  • are on their own and they have no power,

    心理治療師,詩人等等

  • they have no might.

    個個獨自行事,並不強大

  • So religions are the foremost example

    他們力量很有限

  • of an institution that is fighting for the things of the mind.

    宗教團體是一個上佳的例子

  • Now we may not agree with what religions are trying to teach us,

    說明人類可以如何組織起來對抗世界潮流

  • but we can admire the institutional way

    即使我們不認同宗教的內容

  • in which they're doing it.

    但我們可以欣賞他們如何組織起來

  • Books alone, books written by lone individuals,

    宣揚教義

  • are not going to change anything.

    那些彼此獨立的作家們所寫的

  • We need to group together.

    無法改變甚麼

  • If you want to change the world, you have to group together, you have to be collaborative.

    我們必須組織起來

  • And that's what religions do.

    如果你想改變世界,你必須組織起來,與人合作

  • They are multinational, as I say,

    這正是宗教團體的做法

  • they are branded, they have a clear identity,

    正如我所說,宗教團體是跨國的

  • so they don't get lost in a busy world.

    他們出師有名,有明確的定位

  • That's something we can learn from.

    不會在繁雜的世界迷失

  • I want to conclude.

    這是值得借鏡的地方

  • Really what I want to say

    我想總結

  • is for many of you who are operating in a range of different fields,

    我想說的是

  • there is something to learn from the example of religion --

    在座來自各行各業的觀眾們

  • even if you don't believe any of it.

    宗教裡有值得借鑑的地方

  • If you're involved in anything that's communal,

    即使你不信教

  • that involves lots of people getting together,

    假如你活在群體裡

  • there are things for you in religion.

    一個包括許多人的群體裡

  • If you're involved, say, in a travel industry in any way,

    那麼宗教裡有值得參考的例子

  • look at pilgrimage.

    比方說,你在旅遊業工作

  • Look very closely at pilgrimage.

    你可以參考一下「朝聖」這回事

  • We haven't begun to scratch the surface

    如果你認真想想

  • of what travel could be

    我們幾乎完全沒想過

  • because we haven't looked at what religions do with travel.

    「朝聖」對旅遊業

  • If you're in the art world,

    可以有甚麼啟示

  • look at the example of what religions are doing with art.

    如果你是藝術工作者

  • And if you're an educator in any way,

    想想看,宗教如何處理藝術

  • again, look at how religions are spreading ideas.

    如果你在教育界

  • You may not agree with the ideas,

    想想看,宗教如何教化人

  • but my goodness, they're highly effective mechanisms for doing so.

    也許你不認同宗教的做法

  • So really my concluding point

    但是,天啊,宗教的一套實在是太有效了

  • is you may not agree with religion,

    所以,我的結論是

  • but at the end of the day,

    即使你不認同宗教

  • religions are so subtle, so complicated,

    可是,宗教的內容確是

  • so intelligent in many ways

    很精妙複雜

  • that they're not fit to be abandoned to the religious alone;

    而且相當有智慧的

  • they're for all of us.

    不應全盤否定

  • Thank you very much.

    人人皆可從中受益

  • (Applause)

    謝謝

  • Chris Anderson: Now this is actually a courageous talk,

    (掌聲)

  • because you're kind of setting up yourself in some ways

    基斯.安迪臣:這真是一個很勇敢的演說

  • to be ridiculed in some quarters.

    因為這樣說,你讓自己

  • AB: You can get shot by both sides.

    很容易被人挑剔

  • You can get shot by the hard-headed atheists,

    迪布頓:腹背受敵

  • and you can get shot by those who fully believe.

    頑固的無神論者批評你

  • CA: Incoming missiles from North Oxford at any moment.

    虔誠教徒也會批評你

  • AB: Indeed.

    安迪臣:隨時有導彈從牛津北部向你發射

  • CA: But you left out one aspect of religion

    迪布頓:的確如此

  • that a lot of people might say

    安迪臣:你似乎說漏了宗教中的一環

  • your agenda could borrow from,

    許多人會說

  • which is this sense --

    你所提倡的

  • that's actually probably the most important thing to anyone who's religious --

    有個說法是

  • of spiritual experience,

    其實教徒從宗教中獲得最最重要的

  • of some kind of connection

    屬靈體驗

  • with something that's bigger than you are.

    是某種關連

  • Is there any room for that experience in Atheism 2.0?

    連接教徒,和一個比他更偉大的存在

  • AB: Absolutely. I, like many of you, meet people

    無神論2.0中,有沒有類似的體驗?

  • who say things like, "But isn't there something bigger than us,

    迪布頓:當然,我也認識不少人

  • something else?"

    說「難道世上沒有比我們

  • And I say, "Of course." And they say, "So aren't you sort of religious?"

    人類更偉大的存在嗎?」

  • And I go, "No." Why does that sense of mystery,

    我說「當然有的」。然後他們說,「那你就是認同宗教囉?」

  • that sense of the dizzying scale of the universe,

    我接著說「不是的」。為甚麼這種奇異感動

  • need to be accompanied by a mystical feeling?

    被宇宙的偉大所觸動

  • Science and just observation

    不得不與神怪扯上關係?

  • gives us that feeling without it,

    科學和精準的觀察

  • so I don't feel the need.

    也可以在不談神怪的情況下,觸動人

  • The universe is large and we are tiny,

    我不認為有這個必要

  • without the need for further religious superstructure.

    宇宙浩瀚,而人類渺小

  • So one can have so-called spiritual moments

    這不需要宗教的超自然學說

  • without belief in the spirit.

    在不相信神怪的前提下

  • CA: Actually, let me just ask a question.

    也能有「屬靈體驗」

  • How many people here would say

    安迪臣:讓我問一個問題

  • that religion is important to them?

    在場各位有誰認為

  • Is there an equivalent process

    對他而言,宗教是不可或缺的?

  • by which there's a sort of bridge

    到底有沒有一個類似的說法

  • between what you're talking about and what you would say to them?

    可以讓他們從另一個方向理解

  • AB: I would say that there are many, many gaps in secular life

    理解你剛才所說的?

  • and these can be plugged.

    迪布頓:我認為無神論的世界的而且確是千瘡百孔,充滿缺口的

  • It's not as though, as I try to suggest,

    這些缺口可用宗教填滿

  • it's not as though either you have religion

    這並不是說

  • and then you have to accept all sorts of things,

    要麼你選擇宗教

  • or you don't have religion

    同時選擇它的全部

  • and then you're cut off from all these very good things.

    要麼你摒棄宗教

  • It's so sad that we constantly say,

    同時拒絕一切可取之處

  • "I don't believe so I can't have community,

    我們常聽說:「我不信教

  • so I'm cut off from morality,

    於是我沒有社群

  • so I can't go on a pilgrimage."

    於是我脫離道德價值

  • One wants to say, "Nonsense. Why not?"

    於是我便不能踏上朝聖之路。」這樣很可憐

  • And that's really the spirit of my talk.

    有人會問:「無聊。為甚麼不?」

  • There's so much we can absorb.

    這正正是我演說的中心思想

  • Atheism shouldn't cut itself off from the rich sources of religion.

    宗教有太多可取之處

  • CA: It seems to me that there's plenty of people in the TED community

    無神論不應該拒絕宗教裡豐富的內涵

  • who are atheists.

    安迪臣:在TED群體中,似乎有頗多人

  • But probably most people in the community

    是無神論者

  • certainly don't think that religion is going away any time soon

    也許大部份人認為

  • and want to find the language

    短時間內,宗教是不可能消失的

  • to have a constructive dialogue

    他們想找到合適的語言

  • and to feel like we can actually talk to each other

    作有建設性的對話

  • and at least share some things in common.

    讓人感到彼此之間的確可以溝通

  • Are we foolish to be optimistic

    或者最少有些共同點

  • about the possibility of a world

    這樣想是否太傻太樂觀呢?

  • where, instead of religion being the great rallying cry

    這世界是否可以

  • of divide and war,

    不讓有神無神之爭

  • that there could be bridging?

    分裂世界

  • AB: No, we need to be polite about differences.

    我們是否有彼此溝通了解的可能性呢?

  • Politeness is a much-overlooked virtue.

    迪布頓:這想法不傻。只要我們懂得和而不同。

  • It's seen as hypocrisy.

    我們經常忘記禮儀

  • But we need to get to a stage when you're an atheist

    它聽起來太虛偽

  • and someone says, "Well you know, I did pray the other day,"

    但到某時候,一個教徒會對你說

  • you politely ignore it.

    「你知道,我那天有祈禱」

  • You move on.

    而你禮貌地無視之

  • Because you've agreed on 90 percent of things,

    該幹嘛幹嘛去

  • because you have a shared view on so many things,

    因為你們兩個能認同九成以上的事物

  • and you politely differ.

    你們的世界觀有許多相通之處

  • And I think that's what the religious wars of late have ignored.

    故能達致和而不同

  • They've ignored the possibility of harmonious disagreement.

    我認為近代的有神無神之爭,忽略了這一點

  • CA: And finally, does this new thing that you're proposing

    大家忘了其實彼此是可以和而不同的

  • that's not a religion but something else,

    安迪臣:最後,你提倡的無神論2.0

  • does it need a leader,

    本身並非一個宗教

  • and are you volunteering to be the pope?

    但它需要一個領袖嗎

  • (Laughter)

    而你是否願意當無神論者的教宗?

  • AB: Well, one thing that we're all very suspicious of

    (笑聲)

  • is individual leaders.

    迪布頓:唔,我們對個人領袖

  • It doesn't need it.

    非常警剔

  • What I've tried to lay out is a framework

    無神論不需要領袖

  • and I'm hoping that people can just fill it in.

    我剛才所言,只是一個理論框架

  • I've sketched a sort of broad framework.

    我希望大家可以自由發揮,付諸實行

  • But wherever you are, as I say, if you're in the travel industry, do that travel bit.

    我只是勾勒出一個大概的結構

  • If you're in the communal industry, look at religion and do the communal bit.

    但不論你是誰,比如說你是旅遊業者,就做旅遊那一塊

  • So it's a wiki project.

    如果你活在社群裡,做社群的工作

  • (Laughter)

    這其實是個維基百科

  • CA: Alain, thank you for sparking many conversations later.

    (笑聲)

  • (Applause)

    安迪臣:雅倫,謝謝你精彩的演說

One of the most common ways of dividing the world

譯者: Sandy Li 審譯者: Shelley Krishna R. TSANG

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