really appreciate you taking time to visit with us.

真的很感謝你花時間來訪問我們。

Simon Sinek: Oh, my pleasure. Ron: Yesterday, I was finalizing my notes

西蒙-辛克：哦，我的榮幸。羅恩：昨天，我正在最後整理我的筆記。

for today's call and I jumped over to TED.com and I looked up your famous "How Great Leaders

今天的電話，我跳到TED.com，我看了你的著名的 "偉大的領導者如何"。

Inspire Action" video. I think I've watched it a few thousand times.

激勵行動 "視頻。我想我已經看了幾千遍了。

But I saw that it's up to 23 million views. That blew my mind a little bit. I'm just curious,

但我看到它的瀏覽量達到了2300萬。這讓我有點吃驚。我只是好奇。

could you have ever imagined when you did that 18-minute talk, that it would go on to

你可曾想過，當你做了18分鐘的談話，它會繼續

be one of the most watched Ted Talks of all time?

是有史以來最受關注的Ted Talks之一？

Simon: No, of course not. Nobody can plan for that. People ask me all the time, they're

西蒙：不，當然不是。沒有人能夠計劃好。人們問我所有的時間，他們。

like, "How are you going to do another Ted Talk as popular as your first?" And the answer

如，"你怎麼會做另一個Ted演講 像你的第一次一樣受歡迎？"而答案是

is I'm not. [laughs] I didn't plan for that to happen, so I certainly

是我不是。[笑]我沒有計劃的情況下，所以我當然可以

can't plan to beat it. Ron: I'm curious, how did you prepare for

不能打算打敗它。羅恩：我很好奇，你是怎麼準備的？

that talk? Had you done that particular talk before?

那次演講？你以前做過那個特別的演講嗎？

Simon: I had been giving that talk in an hour, an hour and a half version for about three

西蒙：我已經用一個小時、一個半小時的版本來做那個講座，大概有三個月了。

years prior. What I didn't think was possible was to communicate the message in 18 minutes.

幾年前。沒想到的是，在18分鐘內就把資訊傳達給了大家。

Ron: [laughs] Yes. Simon: When they asked me to do it, I thought,

羅恩：[笑]是的。西蒙：當他們讓我做的時候，我想。

"That's not possible." Of course, that's not an option. Yeah, I guess it works.

"這是不可能的。"當然，這是不可能的。是啊，我想這是可行的。

Ron: It definitely works, yeah. It's one of my favorite videos of all time. Actually,

羅恩：它絕對有效，是的。這是我最喜歡的視頻之一。事實上，

we saw you at the AME Conference last year in Florida. That was brilliant, as well.

我們去年在佛羅里達州的AME會議上見過你。這是輝煌的，以及。

I don't know if you remember that, but that was great. The first question I have for you

我不知道你是否還記得，但這是偉大的。我有第一個問題要問你

is I'm curious, as it relates to your work, what problems are you trying to solve?

我很好奇，因為這與你的工作有關，你想解決什麼問題？

Simon: The discovery of the “Why,” for me, solved a very personal problem. I'd lost

西蒙："為什麼 "的發現，對我來說，解決了一個非常私人的問題。我失去了

my passion for what I was doing, and the process of discovering my “Why” restored my passion

我對自己所做的事情充滿了激情，而發現自己 "為什麼 "的過程也恢復了我的激情。

to levels I'd never experienced before. It was only in learning more about it and

到了我從未體驗過的程度。只有在瞭解更多關於它和

the biology of human decision making did I realize that this is not some management idea,

人類決策的生物學，我才意識到這不是什麼管理理念。

but this is literally the biology of how our brains work, how we make decisions, how we

但這就是我們大腦如何工作的生物學原理，我們如何做決定，我們如何...

live our lives, how we run organizations. My work all contributes to this idea that

我們的生活，我們如何管理組織。我的工作都有助於這個想法

we're all entitled to be passionate about the work that we do. Fulfillment, inspiration

我們都有權利對我們所做的工作充滿激情。履行、靈感

is not a luxury but a privilege. It's not for the few people who get to say, "I love

不是一種奢侈，而是一種特權。這不是給少數人的，他們可以說："我愛。

my job," and the rest of us go, "Oh, you're so lucky."

我的工作，"和我們其餘的人去， "哦，你是如此幸運。"

Everybody gets to say that, and we get to demand from our leaders that they provide

每個人都可以這樣說，我們可以要求我們的領導人提供。

environments that we want to come and work in and feel inspired to work in every day.

的環境，讓我們每天都想來這裡工作，並感受到工作的靈感。

Ron: I can't help but think of Barry-Wehmiller as one of the best at doing exactly what you

羅恩：我不禁認為Barry-Wehmiller是做得最好的一個，正是你的。

just said. Perhaps we can explore that later in the show.

剛剛說的。也許我們可以在以後的節目中探討這個問題。

First, I want to talk a little bit about the golden circle, Simon. You first shared the

首先，我想談一下黃金圈，西蒙。你第一次分享了

golden circle in that Ted Talk that I mentioned earlier.

我之前提到的那個Ted演講中的黃金圈。

You taught us that while knowing what we do and how we do it is important, the most critical

您教會了我們，知道自己做什麼和怎麼做固然重要，但最關鍵的是

thing we can understand is why we do what we do. I'm interested to know, how did you

我們可以理解的是我們為什麼要這樣做。我很想知道，你是怎麼做到的？

arrive at the idea of the golden circle? Was it through research or some sort of self-discovery?

是通過研究還是某種自我發現？是通過研究還是某種自我發現？

Simon: It was an evolutionary idea. It's not like I sat in a room and just popped it out.

這是一個進化的想法。它不像我坐在一個房間裡，只是彈出它。

It originally began as an idea where I wanted to understand why some marketing works and

原本我是想了解一些營銷工作的原因和

some marketing doesn't. I came from a marketing world, and I was always

有些營銷沒有。我出身於營銷世家，我一直都是

astounded by how I could take the same team and put them on one client or a different

驚訝於我怎麼能把同樣的團隊放在一個客戶或不同的客戶上。

client, and we'd have completely different results, even though, I had the same brilliant

客戶，我們會有完全不同的結果， 即使，我有同樣的輝煌，我的客戶。

people working on it. I realized there was a pattern to how good

的人在工作。我意識到，有一個模式是多麼好

marketing works, and I wrote it down, and it was that order.

營銷工作，我把它寫下來，就是這個順序。

It wasn't until I started to learn about the biology, which came a little later, did bells

直到我開始學習生物學，這才稍晚一點，才有了鐘聲

and lights start flashing. I realized this wasn't about how marketing works, this is

和燈光開始閃爍。我意識到這不是關於營銷如何運作，這是

about how we live our lives, and that's when things started to make sense.

關於我們的生活方式， 這時候事情開始變得有意義。

Ron: In "Leaders Eat Last," you explored a topic of brain science and why things like

羅恩：在《領導者最後吃》中，你探討了一個腦科學的話題，以及為什麼像。

dopamine and oxytocin play such a critical role in human behavior. How did you come to

多巴胺和催產素在人類行為中起著至關重要的作用。你怎麼會想到

study this? Simon: I'm not a researcher, per se. I'm not

研究這個？西蒙：我本身不是一個研究者。我不是

an academic, but I am a little kid. I have an insatiable curiosity to understand why

一個學者，但我是一個小孩子。我有一個永不滿足的好奇心，想知道為什麼... ...

things work and why things do the things they do, in all aspects of my life. I get on a

在我生活的方方面面，事情的運作和為什麼事情會這樣做。我得到一個

plane, I want to understand how a wing works and a jet engine works. It's just how I am.

飛機，我想了解機翼是如何工作的，噴氣發動機是如何工作的。我就是這樣的人。

I went on a trip to Afghanistan as a guest

我去阿富汗旅行，作為一個客人

of the United States Air Force, and everything on our trip went wrong. It was a very intense

美國空軍的，而我們的旅行中的一切都出了問題。這是一個非常緊張的

experience and would observe these remarkable human beings around me who trusted each other

經驗，並會觀察到我身邊這些非凡的人類，他們彼此之間相互信任

with their lives. As I like to say, we give medals to people

用他們的生命。就像我喜歡說的那樣，我們給人們頒發獎章。

in the military who are willing to sacrifice themselves so that others may gain, where

捨身取義，捨我其誰

in the private sector, we give bonuses to people who are willing to sacrifice others

在私營企業，我們給那些願意犧牲別人的人發獎金。

so that we may gain. I realized it was completely different to the world I was brought up in,

使我們可以獲得。我意識到，這和我成長的世界完全不同。

in the private sector in business. It was no other reason than I just wanted

在私營企業中的業務。這不是別的原因，我只是想

to understand where trust came from. Are they actually more trustworthy people? Is that

來了解信任從何而來。他們其實是更值得信任的人嗎？是不是

really what it is? That doesn't sound right. When you start asking these questions about

真的是這樣嗎？這聽起來不對。當你開始問這些問題的時候

why trust exists in some organizations and not others, it necessarily takes you back

為什麼有的組織存在信任，而有的組織不存在信任，這必然會讓你回想起

to our anthropological beginnings and makes you forced to understand the environments

我們的人類學起源，並使你被迫瞭解的環境

for which we were designed to survive in. That's where it all began. It came from my

我們被設計為在其中生存。這就是一切的開始它來自於我的

desire to be around more people to trust. Like I said, all my work is semi-autobiographical,

渴望身邊有更多可以信任的人。就像我說的，我所有的作品都是半自傳體。

it was my own struggle. Ron: Yeah, I hear you. Obviously, you teach

這是我自己的鬥爭。羅恩：是的，我聽到了。很顯然，你教

the importance of understanding our “Why.” In other words, what's our cause? What's our

瞭解我們 "為什麼 "的重要性。換句話說，我們的事業是什麼？什麼是我們的

purpose? Why do we do what we do? My question is, is any “Why” okay, or are some “Whys”

目的？我們為什麼要這樣做？我的問題是，是任何 "為什麼 "都可以，還是有些 "為什麼"

better than others? In other words, is there a North Star that should be guiding us?

比別人更好？換句話說，是否有一顆北極星應該引導我們？

Simon: No, because it's subjective. All “Whys” are positive. People say, "That guy's a negative

西蒙：不，因為它是主觀的。所有的 "為什麼 "都是正面的。人們說："那傢伙是個消極的

‘Why.’" Nope, all “Whys” are positive. The other thing is all “Whys” have nothing

'為什麼'。"不對，所有的 "為什麼 "都是正面的。另一件事是所有的 "為什麼 "都是沒有的

to do with the product or service that you sell or offer, and you only have one. People

與你銷售或提供的產品或服務有關，而你只有一個。人，而你只有一個。

are like, "We have four ‘Whys.’" I'm like, "No, you don't. You have one ‘Why.’

是這樣，"我們有四個'為什麼'。"我想，"不，你沒有。你有一個 "為什麼"。

It's the sum total of who you are, how you were raised, the lessons you learned as a

這是你是誰的總和，你是如何成長起來的，你學到的經驗教訓，作為一個。

young person, and the rest of your life simply serves as an opportunity to either live in

年輕人，而你的餘生只是作為一個機會，要麼活在。

or out of balance with your ‘Why.’" It’s the same with an organization. A “Why”

或與你的'為什麼'失衡。"一個組織也是如此。一個 "為什麼"

is why was the organization founded? What problem was it attempting to solve? The founders,

是為什麼成立該組織？它試圖解決什麼問題？創始人。

what vision did they have? It's an origin story. There's no such thing as a North-Star

他們有什麼願景？這是一個起源的故事。沒有什麼北斗星的故事

“Why” objectively. This is why a “Why” is important, because your “Why” may resonate

"為什麼 "是客觀的。這就是為什麼 "為什麼 "很重要的原因，因為你的 "為什麼 "可能會引起共鳴。

with some people and not others. That's the point of stating and knowing your

與一些人，而不是其他人。這就是說明和知道你的意思。

“Why,” which is you want to attract the people who believe what you believe, and you

"為什麼"，也就是你要吸引那些相信你所相信的人，你要

want to be attracted to the people who believe what you believe. That's why when we listen

想要被那些相信你所相信的人所吸引。這就是為什麼當我們聽

to political races, we want our leaders or our would-be leaders to tell us what they

我們希望我們的領導人或我們未來的領導人告訴我們，他們的目標是什麼

believe, not just what they'd do. When we hear what they believe, we want to

相信，而不僅僅是他們會做什麼。當我們聽到他們的信念時，我們想... ...

align ourselves with those who share our beliefs and that we trust that they will do the things

與那些與我們有相同信仰的人結盟，並且我們相信他們會做的事情

to uphold those beliefs. The same is true in a company. We want to know what the company

來維護這些信念。在公司裡也是如此。我們想知道該公司

stands for, why they do what they do so that we can devote ourselves and our energies to

代表著什麼，他們為什麼要這樣做，這樣我們就可以把自己和精力投入到以下方面：

helping them advance that cause.

幫助他們推進這一事業。

Otherwise, it's just a job, just a series of transactions. I do work, you pay me money.

否則，這只是一份工作，只是一系列的交易。我做工作，你給我錢。

It's a transactional relationship. Ron: If you could just take a rough swag at

這是一種交易關係。羅恩：如果你能粗略地掃一眼

a percentage of companies that have done a great job of identifying their “Why,”

在確定 "為什麼 "方面做得很好的公司所佔的比例。

what would you think it would be? Simon: Under 10 percent.

你覺得會是什麼？西蒙：低於10%。

Ron: Really? [laughs] Simon: Yeah.

羅恩：真的嗎？[笑]西蒙：是的。

Ron: Wow, that's pretty scary, really, isn't it? Simon: I see opportunity. [laughs]

羅恩：哇，這很可怕，真的嗎？西蒙：我看到了機會。我看到了機會。 [笑]

Ron: You have job security, Simon, I guess. [laughs]

羅恩：你有工作保障，西蒙，我想。[笑聲]

Simon: That's depressing, isn't it? I'd like to work myself out of a job. I talk about

西蒙：這很鬱悶，不是嗎？我想把自己從工作中解放出來。我說的是

trust and cooperation. There should be no demand

信任與合作。不應要求

for my work. Ron: That's true, yes. How does your work

為我的工作。羅恩這是真的，是的。你的工作是如何

apply to people who, let's say, aren't knowledge workers, or perhaps they're not even leaders

適用於那些，比方說，不是知識工作者的人，或者說，他們甚至可能不是領導者

of people? In other words, say, some person listening

的人？換句話說，比如說，有些人聽

to this right now hates their retail job or their factory job. Can they get value out

對這個現在恨他們的零售工作或他們的工廠工作。他們可以得到價值

of the golden circle and finding their “Why” just as individuals?

的黃金圈，並像個人一樣找到自己的 "為什麼"？

Simon: Oh my goodness, of course. It has nothing to do with the work that we do. It has to

西蒙。哦，我的天哪，當然。這與我們所做的工作無關。它必須

do with the people with whom we work. We are social animals, and we respond to the environments

與我們一起工作的人。我們是社會性動物，我們對環境的反應是

we're in. You take a good person, you put them in a bad environment, they're capable

我們在。你把一個好人，你把他們 在一個糟糕的環境中，他們有能力

of doing bad things. You take a person that maybe others have given

的做壞事。你把一個人，也許別人已經給

up on, they may have even performed bad acts, you put them in a good environment, they're

上，他們甚至可能做出了不好的行為，你把他們放在一個好的環境裡，他們就會被

capable of becoming remarkable human beings. I think people in the knowledge business world

能夠成為了不起的人。我認為知識商業界的人

suffer from hubris and terrible ethnocentrism, that, "I can't imagine someone who works in

患有傲慢和可怕的種族中心主義，"我無法想象一個人誰在工作中的

a factory would actually be happy." That's because they think happiness is equated with

一個工廠其實會很幸福。"那是因為他們認為幸福等同於

the work that you do, which is nonsense. Happiness and joy are equated with the people with whom

的工作，這是無稽之談。幸福和快樂是與人劃等號的。

we work. If we feel trusted then we love going to work,

我們的工作。如果我們感到被信任，那麼我們就會喜歡去工作。

regardless of the work that we do. We've all helped our friends move, and it's been a joyous

無論我們做什麼工作。我們都幫助朋友們搬家，這是一件很快樂的事情。

experience. Lifting boxes, carrying them, and putting them on a truck is not a joyous

經驗。抬箱子、搬箱子、上卡車，並不是一件快樂的事。

experience, but serving and taking care of our friends is.

經驗，但服務和照顧我們的朋友是。

We've all been on our hands and knees trying to help someone build IKEA furniture. It's

我們都曾手忙腳亂地想幫別人打造宜家傢俱。它是

a pretty awful job, it's a pretty awful task, but we enjoy it and we say yes because of

一個相當可怕的工作，這是一個相當可怕的任務，但我們喜歡它，我們說是，因為它是

the joy of helping our friends or having the joy of our friends helping us. It's terribly,

幫助朋友的快樂，或者有朋友幫助我們的快樂。這是非常可怕的。

terribly pompous to think that because the work is unglamorous that you can't have joy.

以為工作不光鮮就不能有快樂，真是太浮誇了。

I can tell you, I've met factory workers and people who are in the stone crushing business

我可以告訴你，我見過工廠的工人，也見過做碎石生意的人。

who were way happier, way more inspired, and way more fulfilled than somebody who works

誰是更快樂的方式，更多的靈感，和更多的滿足感，比誰的工作誰的方式

for a tech company or a bank. Ron: I don't know how much you've studied

為一家科技公司或銀行工作。羅恩：我不知道你研究了多少。

the Lean movement that we work in, but one of the principles that we teach is Respect

在我們所從事的精益運動中，我們所教授的原則之一是尊重。

for People. What you're saying is so true. It doesn't matter if you sweep floors or you're

為人。你說的太對了。不管你是掃地還是你是

the CEO, we all have inherent respect, and we should all take care of one another and

CEO，我們都有內在的尊重，我們都應該互相照顧和

help each other. Simon: We're all cogs in a machine. Some of

互相幫助。我們都是一臺機器上的齒輪。有些人

them have a more visible role, like the hands on the front of the clock, and some of them

他們有一個更明顯的作用，像時鐘前面的指針，和他們的一些

are more hidden, but every piece in that machine needs to work and feel valued and valuable.

是比較隱蔽的，但那臺機器中的每一個部件都需要工作，並感覺到自己的價值和價值。

Otherwise, things break. That's just the way it works. That's why we refer to companies

否則，事情就壞了。這就是它的工作方式。這就是為什麼我們把公司稱為

as "well-oiled machines." As you know from the Toyota experience, Lean

作為 "運轉良好的機器"。從豐田的經驗中可以知道，精益化

has nothing to do with efficiency. Lean has everything to do with people. The biggest

與效率無關。精益的一切都與人有關。最大的

mistake the Americans made bringing the Toyota process to America was calling it Lean.

美國人把豐田的工藝帶到美國的錯誤是把它叫做精益。

Ron: [laughs] I didn't know how much you really knew about the Lean movement, Simon, I have

羅恩：[笑]我不知道你對精益運動的瞭解到底有多少，西蒙，我有。

a whole new army of questions for you. I'm fascinated to hear you say that.

一個全新的問題給你。聽你這麼說，我很著迷。

Simon: Americans turned it into a tool for efficiency, and that's never what it was supposed

美國人把它變成了一個提高效率的工具，而這從來不是它應該做的事情。

to be. There are zero, zero examples of an American company successfully implementing

要。有零，零個美國公司成功實施的例子。

Lean when they do it as a tool for efficiency. Zero. How good can a process be if there are

精益當他們把它作為提高效率的工具來做。零。一個流程能有多好，如果有

zero examples of success? When it's used as a people tool, it's used

成功的例子為零？當它作為一個人的工具時，它的用途是

for a tool for helping people respect each other, and helping each other, and kaizen

為幫助人們互相尊重，互相幫助，kaizen的工具。

moments where you can help someone else solve the problem that they're suffering. You can

的時刻，你可以幫助別人解決他們正在遭受的問題。你可以

take an accountant, and ask them to look at this machine, and say, "Do you see something

帶一個會計，並要求他們看這臺機器，並說，"你看到的東西，

that I'm not seeing?" It's about cooperation, not efficiency. Efficiency

我沒有看到的？"這是合作的問題，不是效率的問題。效率

may come out of the cooperation, as will profit and innovation, but the motivation is human.

可能會從合作中產生，利潤和創新也會產生，但動機是人。

It's not a metric. Ron: Back in the '80s, when Dr. Womack and

這不是一個度量衡。羅恩：早在80年代，當沃馬克博士和。

these guys were traveling around Japan, and it's actually John Krafcik who coined the

這些傢伙在日本旅行， 它實際上是約翰-克拉夫奇克誰創造的

term Lean. If you had been sitting in that room, and

術語Lean。如果你一直坐在那間屋子裡，並且。

you were on that research team working around and looking at why are these guys so good,

你在那個研究小組工作，看看為什麼這些人這麼厲害。

and you're trying to come up with a name to call this, what would you have said?

你想給這個起個名字，你會怎麼說？

Simon: This is the challenge when you have economists and these guys doing the research,

西蒙：當你讓經濟學家和這些人做研究的時候，這就是挑戰。

because they're looking at the results. If you had social scientists and anthropologists

因為他們看的是結果。如果你有社會科學家和人類學家...

doing the research, they would have named it something else.

做研究的時候，他們會給它起別的名字。

They would have called it teaming, or they

他們會叫它團隊合作，或者他們

would have called it cooperation, or they would have called it trust, or they would

會叫它合作，或者他們會叫它信任，或者他們會。

have called it community, because that's how Japanese companies operate. You give your

已經把它稱為社區，因為這就是日本公司的運作方式。你給你的

life to the company, but the company offers you equal loyalty to them.

命給公司，但公司提供給你的是對他們同等的忠誠。

Ron: Have you been to Japan? Simon: I have.

羅恩：你去過日本嗎？西蒙：我去過。

Ron: What do you take from their culture, versus, say, the traditional Western culture?

羅恩：與西方傳統文化相比，你從他們的文化中得到了什麼？

Simon: Look, there are things that work in their favor, and there are things that they

西蒙，你看，有些事情對他們有利，有些事情對他們不利你看，有一些事情，工作 在他們的青睞， 有一些事情，他們...

will struggle with. There's no such thing as a perfect system.

將與之鬥爭。沒有什麼完美的制度。

Every system is balanced and has its strengths and has its weaknesses. Some of our strengths

每一個系統都是平衡的，有它的優點，也有它的缺點。我們的一些優勢

are their weaknesses, and some of their weaknesses are our strengths.

是他們的弱點，他們的一些弱點也是我們的優勢。

Europe is the same way. One of the things that I love about America is we have an entrepreneurial

歐洲也是這樣。我喜歡美國的一個原因是我們有一種創業精神。

spirit that Europe doesn't have. For example, if you start a business in America and you

的精神，而歐洲卻沒有。比如說，如果你在美國創業，而你

fail, there's no humiliation in that. Everybody's like, "Cool, nice try. Way to go."

失敗，有 沒有屈辱的。每個人的喜歡，"酷，不錯的嘗試。Way to go."

In Europe, if you try to start a business and you fail, it comes with humiliation and

在歐洲，如果你嘗試創業，但失敗了，就會受到羞辱，而且還可能會被淘汰。