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  • When we ended last time

  • we were discussing Locke's idea of government by consent

  • and the question arose

  • what are the

  • limits on government

  • that even the

  • the agreement of the majority can't override

  • that was the question we ended with

  • we saw

  • in the case of property rights

  • that on Locke's view

  • a democratically elected government has the right to tax people

  • it has to be taxation with consent

  • because it does involve the taking of people's property

  • for the common good

  • but it doesn't require

  • the consent of the each individual

  • at the time the tax

  • is enacted or collected

  • what it does require

  • is a prior act of consent

  • to join the society

  • to take on the political obligation

  • but once you take on that obligation you agree to be bound by the majority

  • so much for taxation

  • but what, you may ask

  • about

  • the right

  • to life

  • can the government conscript

  • people and send them into battle

  • what about the idea that we own ourselves

  • is the idea of self possession violated

  • if the government

  • can through coercive legislation and enforcement powers say

  • you must go risk your life to fight in Iraq

  • what would Locke say? does the government have the right to do that?

  • yes

  • in fact he says in one thirty nine

  • he says

  • what matters

  • is that the political authority

  • or the military authority

  • not be arbitrary that's what matters

  • he gives a wonderful example he says a

  • a sergeant even a sergeant

  • let alone a general, a sergeant

  • can command a soldier

  • to go right up to the face of a cannon

  • where he is almost sure to die

  • that the sergeant can do

  • the general can condemn the soldier to death for deserting his post or for not obeying

  • even a desperate order

  • but with all their power over life and death

  • what these officers can't do

  • is take a penny

  • of that soldier's money

  • because that has

  • nothing to do with the rightful authority

  • that would be arbitrary

  • and it would be corrupt

  • so consent winds up being very powerful in Locke, not consent of the individual to the

  • particular tax or military order,

  • but consent to join the government and to be bound by the majority in the first place

  • that's the consent that matters

  • and it matters so

  • powerfully

  • the even the limited government created by the fact that we have an unalienable right

  • to life liberty and property

  • even that limited government is only limited in the sense that it has to govern by generally

  • applicable laws, the rule of law, it can't be arbitrary

  • that's Locke.

  • well this raises a question

  • about consent. Why is consent such a

  • powerful moral instrument in

  • creating political authority and the obligation to obey

  • today we begin to investigate the question of consent

  • by looking at a concrete case

  • the case of military conscription.

  • now some people say

  • if we have a fundamental right

  • that arises from

  • the idea that we own ourselves

  • it's a violation of that right

  • for a government

  • to conscript citizens to go fight in wars.

  • others disagree others say that's a legitimate

  • power

  • of government, of democratically elected government anyhow,

  • and that we have an obligation to obey

  • let's take the case

  • the united states fighting a war in Iraq.

  • news accounts tell us

  • that the military

  • is having great difficulty meeting its

  • recruitment targets

  • consider three policies that the

  • US government might undertake

  • to deal with the fact that it's not

  • achieving its recruiting targets

  • solution number one

  • increase the pay and benefits

  • to attract a sufficient number

  • of soldiers,

  • option number two

  • shift to a system of military conscription

  • have a lottery

  • and who's ever numbers

  • are drawn

  • go to fight in Iraq,

  • system number three

  • outsource, hire

  • what traditionally have been called mercenaries

  • people around the world who are qualified,

  • able to do the work, able to fight well

  • and who are willing to do it

  • for the existing wage

  • so let's take a quick

  • poll here

  • how many favor increasing the pay?

  • huge majority.

  • how many favor going to conscription?

  • all right maybe a dozen people in the room

  • favor conscription.

  • what about the outsourcing solution?

  • okay so there maybe

  • about two, three dozen.

  • during the civil war

  • the union

  • used

  • a combination

  • of conscription

  • and the market system

  • to fill the ranks of the military to fight in the civil war

  • it was a system that

  • began with conscription

  • but

  • if you

  • were

  • drafted

  • and didn't want to serve

  • you could hire a substitute take your place

  • and many people did

  • you could pay whatever the market

  • required in order to find a substitute

  • people ran ads in

  • newspapers in the classified ads

  • offering

  • five hundred dollars

  • sometimes a thousand dollars

  • for a substitute who would go fight the civil war

  • in their place

  • in fact

  • it's reported that Andrew Carnegie

  • was drafted

  • and hired a substitute to take his place

  • for an amount

  • that was

  • a little less than the amount to spend for a year on fancy cigars

  • now I want to get your views

  • about this civil war system call it the a hybrid system

  • conscription but with the buyout provision

  • how many think it was a just system how many would defend the civil war system?

  • anybody?

  • one, anybody else?

  • to three

  • four five.

  • how many think it was unjust?

  • most of you don't like the civil war system you think it's

  • unjust, let's hear an objection

  • why don't you like it? what's wrong with it?

  • yes. well by paying

  • three hundred dollars for

  • to be exempt one time around you're really putting a price on valuing human life

  • and we established earlier that's really hard to do so

  • they're trying to accomplish something that really isn't feasible.

  • good, so

  • so paying someone three hundred or five hundred or a thousand dollars

  • you're basically saying that's what their life is worth you. that's what their life is worth

  • it's putting a dollar value on life

  • that's good, and what's your name? Liz.

  • Liz.

  • well who has an answer

  • for Liz

  • you defended the civil war system

  • what do you say?

  • if you don't like the price then

  • you have the freedom to

  • not be sold or for so it's

  • up to you and I don't think it's necessarily putting

  • a specific price on you and if it's

  • done by himself I don't think there's anything that's really morally wrong with that.

  • So the person who takes

  • the five hundred dollars let's say,

  • he's putting

  • his own

  • price on his life

  • on the risk of his life

  • and he should have the freedom to choose to do that. exactly.

  • what's your name? Jason.

  • Jason thank you.

  • now we need to hear from another critic of the civil war system. yes.

  • it's a kind of coercion almost of people who have lower incomes

  • for Carnegie he can

  • totally ignore the draft three hundred dollars is

  • you know irrelevant in terms of his income, but for someone of a lower income they are

  • essentially being coerced

  • to draft to be drafted or

  • I mean it's probably they're not able to find a replacement the

  • tell me your name. Sam.

  • Sam, all right so you say Sam

  • that

  • when a poor laborer

  • buys his, accepts three hundred dollars to fight in the civil war

  • he is in effect being coerced

  • by that money

  • given his economic circumstances

  • whereas Carnegie can go off pay the money

  • and not serve

  • I want to hear if someone has a reply

  • to Sam's

  • argument

  • that what looks like a free exchange

  • is actually

  • coercive

  • who has an answer to

  • to Sam. go ahead

  • I'd actually agree with him. You agree with him

  • I agree with him in saying that

  • it is coercion

  • in the sense that it robs an individual

  • of his ability to reason properly

  • okay and what's your name? Raul.

  • ok so Raul and Sam

  • agree

  • that what looks like a free exchange, free choice voluntary act

  • is actually coercion it involves coercion

  • it's profound coercion of the worst kind because it falls so disproportionately

  • upon one segment of society

  • good, all right so Raul

  • and Sam have made a powerful point

  • who would like to reply

  • who has an answer

  • for Sam and Raul? Go ahead

  • I just I don't think that these drafting systems are really terribly different from you know all

  • volunteer army sort of recruiting strategies

  • the whole idea of

  • you know having benefits in pay for joining the army is you know sort of a coercive strategy

  • to get people to

  • join

  • it is true that

  • military volunteers come from disproportionately, you know, lower economic

  • status

  • and also from certain regions of the country where you can use the patriotism

  • to try and coerce people, if you're like it's the right thing to do to

  • volunteer to go over to Iraq.

  • and tell me your name. Emily.

  • alright Emily

  • says

  • and Raul you're going to have to reply to this so get ready

  • Emily says

  • fair enough

  • there is a coercive element

  • to the civil war system when the laborer

  • takes the place of Andrew Carnegie for five hundred dollars

  • Emily concedes that

  • but she says

  • if that troubles you

  • about the civil war system

  • shouldn't that also trouble you

  • about

  • the volunteer army today?

  • and let me,

  • before you answer, how did you vote on the first poll,

  • did you defend a volunteer army?

  • I didn't vote.

  • you didn't vote.

  • either way

  • you didn't vote

  • but did you sell your vote to the person sitting next to you?

  • no, all right

  • so what would you say to that argument?

  • I think that the circumstances are different and that

  • there was conscription

  • in

  • the civil war there is no draft today

  • and I think that

  • the volunteers for the army today

  • have a more profound sense of patriotism that is of an individual choice

  • than those who

  • were forced into the military in the civil war

  • somehow less coerced. less coerced. even though

  • there is still inequality in American society even though as Emily points out

  • the make-up

  • of the American military is not reflective of the population

  • as a whole. Let’s just do an experiment here

  • how many here

  • have either served in the military

  • or have a family member

  • who has served in the military

  • in this generation

  • not parents

  • family members in this generation

  • and how many have neither served

  • nor I have any brothers or sisters who have served

  • does that bear out your point Emily?

  • Alright now we need

  • we need to hear from

  • most of you defended

  • the idea

  • of the

  • of the all-volunteer military overwhelmingly

  • and yet overwhelmingly people

  • consider the civil war system unjust

  • Sam and Raul

  • articulated

  • reasons for objecting to the civil war system

  • it took place against a background of inequality

  • and therefore the choices people made to buy their way into military service

  • were not truly free

  • but at least partly coerced

  • then Emily extends that argument

  • in the form of a challenge

  • all right everyone here who voted

  • in favor of the all-volunteer army

  • should be able

  • should have to explain

  • well what's the difference in principle

  • doesn't the all-volunteer army

  • simply universalize

  • the feature that almost everyone find objectionable

  • in the civil war buy-out provision

  • did I state that challenge fairly Emily?

  • ok, so we need to hear from

  • a defender

  • of the all-volunteer military who can address

  • Emily's challenge

  • who can do that? Go ahead

  • the difference between the civil war system and the all-volunteer army system is that

  • in the civil war

  • you're being hired not by the government but by individuals

  • and as a result different people to get hired a different individuals, get paid different

  • in the case of the all-volunteer army everyone who gets hired is hired by the government

  • and gets paid the same amount

  • it's precisely the universalization of all

  • of essentially paying your service you pay your way to the army that makes the all

  • volunteer army just.

  • Emily? I guess I'd frame the principal slightly differently, on the all-volunteer

  • army

  • it's possible for somebody to just step aside and not really think about, you

  • know, the war at all. it's possible to say well I don't need the money,

  • you know I don't need to have an opinion about this I don't need to feel obligated to take

  • my part and defend my country with a

  • coercive system, I'm sorry,

  • with an explicit draft,

  • then

  • you know there's the threat at least that every individual will have to make some sort of

  • decision

  • you know, regarding military conscription and you know perhaps in that way it's more equitable you know

  • it's true that

  • Andrew Carnegie might not serve in any case but in one you know he can completely step

  • aside from it and in the other there is some level of responsibility.

  • While you're there Emily,

  • so what system do you favor

  • conscription

  • I would be hard to say but I think so because it makes the whole country feel a

  • sense of responsibility for the conflict instead of you know having a war that's maybe ideologically

  • supported by a few but only if there's no

  • you know, real responsibility.

  • good. who wants to reply, go ahead.

  • so I was going to say that

  • the fundamental difference between the all-volunteer army

  • and then the

  • army in the civil war is that

  • in all volunteer army if you want to volunteer that fact comes first and then the pay

  • comes after whereas in

  • the civil wars system

  • the people who are volunteering, who are

  • accepting the pay aren't necessarily doing it

  • because they want to, they're just doing it for the money first.

  • what motivation beyond the pay do you think

  • is operating in the case of the all volunteer army?

  • Like patriotism for the country.

  • patriotism

  • well what about pay. And a desire to

  • defend the country and

  • there's some motivation in pay but

  • the fact that

  • it's first and foremost in an all-volunteer army will motivate them first, I think personally

  • okay

  • you think it's better, and tell me your name. Jackie.

  • Jackie do you think it's better if people serve in the military out of a sense of patriotism

  • than just for the money

  • yes definitely because that people who

  • that was one of the main problems in the civil war

  • I mean is that the people that you're getting to go in it

  • or to go to war

  • aren't necessarily people who want to fight and so they won't be as good soldiers as they

  • will be had they been there because they wanted to be

  • all right what about Jackie’s

  • having raised the question of patriotism

  • that patriotism is a better or a higher motivation than money

  • for military service

  • who, who

  • would like to address that question?

  • patriotism absolutely is not necessary in order to be a good soldier because mercenaries

  • can do just as good of a job of

  • the job as anyone who

  • waves the American flag around and wants to

  • defend what the government believes that we should do.

  • did you favor the outsourcing

  • solution? yes sir.

  • all right so let

  • Jackie respond, what's your name? Phillip

  • what about that Jackie?

  • so much for patriotism

  • if you've got someone who's heart is in it more

  • than another person's they're going to do a better job

  • when it comes down to the wire

  • and there is like

  • a situation in which

  • someone has to put their life on the line

  • someone

  • who is doing it because they love this country

  • will be more willing to go into danger than someone who's just getting paid they don't care

  • they've got the technical skills

  • but they don't care what happens because the really have

  • they have nothing, like,

  • nothing invested in this country

  • there's another aspect though once we get on to the issue of patriotism

  • if you believe patriotism

  • as Jackie does, should be the foremost consideration

  • and not money

  • does that argue for or against

  • the paid army we have now

  • we call it the volunteer army, though if you think about it that's

  • a kind of a misnomer

  • a volunteer army as we use the term is a paid army. so

  • what about the suggestion

  • that patriotism should be

  • the primary motivation for military service

  • not money?

  • does that argue in favor

  • of the paid military that we have

  • or does it argue

  • for conscription

  • and just to sharpen that point building on Phil's case for outsourcing

  • if you think

  • that the all-volunteer army, the paid army

  • is best

  • because it lets the market allocate

  • positions according to people's preferences and willing

  • willingness to serve for a certain wage

  • doesn't the logic

  • that takes you

  • from a system of conscription

  • to the hybrid civil war system

  • to the all-volunteer army

  • doesn't the

  • the idea of expanding freedom of choice

  • in the market

  • doesn't that lead you all the way if you followed that principle consistently

  • to a mercenary army?

  • and then if you say no

  • Jackie says no, patriotism

  • should count

  • for something

  • doesn't that argue

  • for going back to conscription if by patriotism you mean a sense of civic

  • obligation

  • let's see if we can step back from

  • the discussion that we've had

  • and see what we've learned

  • about

  • consent

  • as it applies to market exchange.

  • we've really heard two

  • arguments

  • two arguments against

  • the use of markets

  • and exchange

  • in the allocation of military service

  • one was the argument raised

  • by Sam and Raul

  • the argument

  • about coercion

  • the objection

  • that

  • leading the market allocate military service

  • may be unfair

  • and may not even be free

  • if there is

  • severe inequality in this society

  • so that people

  • who buy their way into military service

  • are doing so

  • not because

  • they really want to

  • but because they have so few economic opportunities that that's their

  • that's their best

  • choice

  • and Sam and Raul say there's an element of coercion in that

  • that's one argument.

  • then there is a second objection

  • to using the market to allocate military service

  • that's the idea

  • that military service

  • shouldn't be treated as just another job for pay

  • because it's bound up with patriotism

  • and civic obligation

  • this is a different argument

  • from the argument about unfairness and inequality

  • and coercion

  • it's an argument that suggests that maybe where civic

  • obligations are concerned

  • we shouldn't allocate

  • duties and rights

  • by the market

  • now we've identified two

  • broad objections

  • what do we need to know to assess those objections

  • to assess the first the argument from coercion inequality and fairness, Sam,

  • we need to ask

  • what inequalities in the background conditions of society

  • undermine

  • the freedom

  • of choices people make

  • to buy and sell their labor

  • question number one.

  • question number two, to assess the civic obligation patriotism

  • argument

  • we have to ask

  • what are the obligations of citizenship

  • is military service

  • one of them

  • or not

  • what obligates us as citizens what is the source of political obligation

  • is it consent

  • or are there some

  • civic obligations we have

  • even without consent

  • for living in sharing

  • in a certain

  • kind of society.

  • we haven't answered either of those questions

  • but our debate today

  • about the civil war system and the all-volunteer army

  • has at least raised them

  • and those are questions we're going to return to in the coming weeks.

  • Do you think you should be able to

  • bid for a baby that's up for adoption?

  • That's Andrew's Challenge.

  • Do I think that I should be able to bid for a baby?

  • I'm not, sure.

  • it's a market.

  • today at I’d like to turn our attention

  • and get your views

  • about an argument over the role of markets

  • in the realm of human reproduction and procreation.

  • now with infertility clinics

  • people advertise for egg donors

  • and from time to time in the

  • Harvard Crimson

  • ads appear for egg donors, have you seen them?

  • there was one that

  • ran a few years ago

  • it wasn't looking for just any egg donor,

  • it was an ad that offered a large financial incentive for a donor

  • from a woman

  • who was intelligent

  • athletic

  • at least five foot ten

  • and with

  • at least

  • fourteen hundred or above on her SAT's

  • how much do you think

  • the person looking for this together was willing to pay for an egg from a woman of that

  • description

  • what would you guess?

  • thousand dollars?

  • fifteen thousand? ten?

  • I’ll show you the ad

  • fifty thousand dollars

  • for an egg

  • but only

  • a premium egg

  • what do you think about that?

  • well there are also sometimes ads

  • in the Harvard crimson and in a other college newspapers

  • for sperm donors

  • so the market

  • in reproductive

  • capacities

  • is an equal opportunity market

  • well not exactly equal opportunity they're not offering fifty thousand dollars for sperm

  • but there is a company

  • a large commercial sperm bank

  • that markets sperm

  • it's called California cryobank

  • it's a for-profit company

  • it imposes

  • exacting standards on the sperm it recruits

  • and it has offices

  • in Cambridge between Harvard and MIT

  • and in Palo alto near

  • Stanford

  • cryobank's marketing materials

  • play up

  • the prestigious source of its sperm

  • here is

  • from the web site

  • of cryobank

  • the information

  • here they talk about the compensation

  • although compensation should not be the only reason for becoming of sperm donor

  • we are aware of the considerable time and expense involved in being a donor

  • so you know what they offer?

  • donors will be reimbursed

  • seventy five dollars per

  • specimen

  • up to nine hundred dollars a month if you donate three times a week

  • and then they add, we periodically offer incentives

  • such as

  • such as movie tickets

  • our gifts certificates for the extra time and effort expended

  • by participating donors

  • it's not easy

  • to be a sperm donor

  • they accept fewer than five percent of the donors who apply

  • their admission criteria are

  • more demanding than Harvard's

  • the head of the

  • sperm bank said the ideal sperm donor

  • is six feet tall

  • with a college degree

  • brown eyes

  • blond hair

  • and dimples

  • for the simple reason that these are the traits

  • that the market has shown

  • the customers want

  • quote, quoting the head of the sperm bank, if our customers wanted high school dropouts we would

  • give them high school dropouts.

  • so here are two instances

  • the market in eggs for donation and the market in sperm

  • that raise a question

  • a question about

  • whether

  • eggs and sperm

  • should or should not be bought and sold

  • for money.

  • as you ponder that

  • I want you to consider

  • another

  • case

  • involving

  • a market

  • and in fact a contract

  • in human

  • reproductive, in the human reproductive capacity

  • and this is the case

  • of commercial surrogate motherhood.

  • and it's a case that wound up in court

  • some years ago it's the story of baby M

  • it began with William and Elizabeth

  • Stern, a professional couple

  • wanting a baby

  • but they couldn't have one of their own,

  • at least not without medical risk to Mrs. Stern.

  • they went to an infertility clinic

  • where they met Mary Beth Whitehead

  • a twenty nine-year-old mother of two

  • the wife of a sanitation worker

  • she had replied to and ad

  • that the center had placed

  • seeking the service

  • of a surrogate mother

  • they made a deal

  • they signed a contract

  • in which William Stern

  • agreed

  • to pay

  • Mary Beth Whitehead a ten thousand dollar fee

  • plus all expenses

  • in exchange for which

  • Mary Beth Whitehead agreed to be artificially inseminated with William

  • Stern's sperm,

  • to bear the child and then

  • to give the baby

  • to the Sterns

  • well you probably know

  • how the story unfolded

  • Mary Beth gave birth

  • and changed her mind

  • she decided she wanted to keep the baby

  • the case wound up in court

  • in New Jersey

  • so let's take

  • put aside

  • any legal questions

  • and focus on

  • this issue as a moral question

  • how many

  • believe

  • that the right thing to do

  • in the baby M case

  • would have been to uphold

  • the contract, to enforce the contract?

  • and how many think the right thing to do would have been

  • not to enforce that contract?

  • so it's about the majority say enforce

  • so

  • let's now hear the reasons that people have either for enforcing or refusing to enforce this

  • contract

  • first from those, I want to hear from someone in the majority,

  • why do you uphold the contract

  • why do you enforce it?

  • who can offer a reason? yes. stand up.

  • it's a binding contract

  • all the parties involved

  • knew the terms of the contract before any action was taken

  • it's a voluntary agreement

  • the mother knew what she was getting into

  • all four are intelligent adults regardless of formal education or whatever so

  • it makes sense if you know what you're getting into beforehand and

  • you make a promise

  • you should uphold that promise in the end. Ok, a deal is a deal in other words?

  • Exactly. And what's your name? Patrick

  • is Patrick’s reason the reason that most of you

  • in the majority

  • favored upholding the contract? yes? 0:36:37.769,0:36:38.969 all right now let's hear

  • from someone who would not enforce the contract

  • what do you say to Patrick? Why not? Yes

  • well I mean I agree I think contracts should be upheld when

  • all the parties know all the information but

  • in this case I don't think

  • there's a way a mother

  • before the child exists

  • could actually know

  • how she's going to feel about that child

  • so I don't think the mother actually had all the information

  • she didn't know the person that was going to be born

  • and didn't know how much she would love that person

  • so that's my argument

  • so you would not, and what's your name?

  • Evan Wilson

  • Evan he says he would not uphold the contract because

  • when it was entered into

  • the surrogate mother couldn't

  • be expected to know in advance how she would feel

  • so she didn't really have

  • the relevant information

  • when she made that contract

  • who else

  • who else would not uphold the contract?

  • I think, I also think that a contact should generally be uphold but I think

  • that the child has an inalienable right to

  • its actual mother

  • and I think that if that mother wants it then that child should have a

  • right to that mother. you mean the biological mother not the adoptive mother. right.

  • and why is that, first of all tell me your name. Anna.

  • Anna, why is that Anna?

  • because I think that

  • that bond that is created by nature is stronger than any bond that is created by

  • you know a contract.

  • good thank you. Who else, yes.

  • I disagree I don't think that a child has a

  • inalienable right to her biological mother

  • I think that adoption and surrogacy are both trade offs

  • and I agree with the point made

  • that day it's a voluntary agreement, an individual made,

  • and you can't

  • apply coercion to this argument

  • you can't apply the

  • objection from coercion to this argument.

  • correct. what's your name?

  • Kathleen

  • Kathleen, what do you say to Evan,

  • that though there may not have been, Evan claimed that the consent was tainted

  • not by coercion

  • but by lack of adequate information

  • she couldn't have known the relevant information namely, how she would feel about the child

  • I don't think her emotion content plays into this

  • I think the emotional content or her feelings plays into this, I think in, you know, in a case

  • of law, in the justice of this scenario,

  • her change of feelings are not relevant if I give up my child for adoption and then

  • I decide later on that I really want that child back

  • too bad, it's a trade-off

  • it's a trade off that the mother has made.

  • so a deal is a deal, you agree with Patrick? I agree with Patrick, a deal is a deal, yes.

  • good, yes. I would say that

  • though I'm not really sure if I agree with

  • the idea that the child has a right to their mother

  • I think the mother definitely has a right to her child.

  • and I also think there are some areas where market forces shouldn't necessarily penetrate, I think that

  • the whole surrogate mother

  • area

  • smacks a little bit

  • of dealing in human beings

  • it seems dehumanizing

  • and it doesn't really seem right

  • so

  • that's my main reason

  • and what is could, tell us your name.

  • I'm Andrew. Andrew.

  • what is dehumanizing

  • about

  • buying and selling

  • the right to a child

  • for money, what is the humanizing about it?

  • well because

  • you're buying

  • someone's

  • biological right

  • I mean you can't

  • and the law

  • as it states you can't sell your own child like were you to have a child

  • I believe that the law prohibits you selling it

  • to another person. so this is like baby selling?

  • Right. To a certain extent, I mean though there is a contract with another person, you've made

  • agreements and whatnot

  • there is an undeniable emotional bond that takes place between a mother and child

  • and it's wrong to simply ignore this because you've written out something contractually.

  • you want to reply to Andrew? to stay there

  • you point out that there is an undeniable emotional bond

  • I feel like when in this situation we're not necessarily against

  • adoption

  • or surrogacy in itself we're just sort of pointing out

  • the emotional differences

  • well but wait, it's easy to break everything down to just numbers and say

  • well we have contracts like you're buying and selling a car

  • but there are underlying emotions I mean you're dealing with people

  • I mean these are not objects to be bought and sold but what about Andrew's claim that

  • this is like baby selling I believe that adoption and surrogacy should be permitted whether I actually

  • will partake in it

  • is not really relevant but I think that the government should, the government should

  • give its citizens the rights to

  • allow for adoption and surrogacy. But adoption, adoption is not according to.. Is adoption

  • baby selling?

  • well

  • do you think you should be able to

  • to bid for a baby that's up for adoption

  • that's Andrew's challenge

  • Do I think that I should be able to bid for a baby?

  • I'm not... sure.

  • it's a market I mean,

  • I feel like the extent to which it's been applied

  • I'm not sure if the government

  • should be able to permit it and I have to think about it more but,

  • Alright fair enough, are you satisfied

  • Andrew? well ya, I think surrogacy should be permitted

  • I think that people can

  • do it

  • but I don't think that it should be forced upon people

  • that once a contract is signed it's absolutely like

  • the end-all

  • I think it's unenforceable

  • so people should be free, Andrew, to enter into these contracts

  • but it should not be enforceable in a court

  • not in a court no.

  • who would like to turn on one side or the other

  • I think I have an interesting perspective on this because my brother was actually one

  • of the people who donated to a sperm bank

  • and he was paid a very large amount of money

  • he was six feet tall, but not blond

  • he had dimples though,

  • so he actually has, I'm an aunt now and he has a daughter

  • she donated sperm to a lesbian couple in Oklahoma and

  • he has have been contacted by them and he has seen pictures of his daughter

  • but he still does not feel an emotional bond to his daughter

  • he just has a sense of curiosity about what she looks like and what she's doing and how

  • she is

  • he doesn't feel love for his

  • child

  • so from this experience I think the bond between a

  • mother

  • and a child

  • cannot be compared to the bond between the father and the child. That's really interesting.

  • what's your name? Vivian.

  • Vivian

  • so we've got the case of surrogacy, commercial surrogacy

  • and it's been compared to baby selling and we've been exploring whether that analogy

  • is apt and

  • it can also be compared, as you point out

  • to sperm selling

  • but you're saying

  • that sperm selling

  • and baby selling or even surrogacy are

  • very different. Because they're unequal services.

  • they're unequal services

  • and that's because

  • Vivian you say that the tie, the bond,

  • yes and also the time investment

  • that's given by a mother, nine months

  • cannot be compared to

  • the man, you know going into a sperm bank

  • looking at pornography

  • you know, and depositing into a cup. I don't think those are equal

  • good. Alright so we, Because that's what happens in a sperm bank.

  • alright so, this is really interesting we have

  • notice the arguments that have come out so far,

  • the objections

  • to surrogacy

  • the objections to

  • enforcing that contract,

  • are of at least two kinds

  • there was the objection

  • about tainted consent

  • this time

  • not because of

  • coercion or implicit coercion

  • but because of

  • imperfect or

  • flawed information

  • so tainted or flawed consent

  • can arise either

  • because of coercion or because of

  • a lack of

  • relevant information

  • at least according to one argument that we've heard

  • and then a second objection

  • to enforcing the surrogacy contract

  • was that it was somehow

  • the humanizing.

  • now when this case was decided by the court

  • what did they say

  • about these arguments?

  • the lower court

  • ruled that the contract was enforceable

  • neither party had a superior bargaining position

  • a price for the service was struck and a bargain was reached

  • one side didn't forced the other

  • neither had disproportionate

  • bargaining power

  • then it went to the new Jersey supreme court

  • and what did they do

  • they said this contract is not enforceable

  • they did

  • grant custody

  • to Mister Stern

  • as the father because they thought that would be in the best interest of the child

  • but they restored

  • the rights

  • of Mary Beth Whitehead

  • and left it to

  • lower courts to decide exactly what the visitation

  • rights should be

  • they invoked two different kinds of reasons

  • along the lines that Andrew proposed

  • first

  • there was not sufficiently informed consent

  • the court argued

  • under the contract the natural mother is irrevocably committed

  • before she knows the strength of her bond with her child

  • she never makes

  • a truly voluntary informed decision

  • for any decision prior to the baby's birth

  • is, in the most important sense,

  • uninformed. that was the court

  • then

  • the court also

  • made a version of the second argument

  • against commodification

  • in this kind of case

  • this is this

  • the sale of a child the court said

  • or at the very least

  • the sale of a mother's right to her child

  • whatever idealism may motivate the participants, the profit motive predominate, permeates and

  • ultimately

  • governs

  • the transaction

  • and so regardless the court said, regardless of any argument about consent or flawed consent

  • or full information

  • there are some things in a civilized society

  • that money can't buy, that's what the courts said

  • in voiding this contract

  • well what about these two arguments

  • against

  • the extension of markets

  • to procreation

  • and to reproduction

  • how persuasive are they?

  • there was, it's true,

  • a voluntary agreement a contract struck between William Stern and Mary Beth Whitehead

  • but there are at least two ways that consent can be other than truly free

  • first

  • if people are pressured or coerced

  • to give their agreement

  • and second

  • if their consent is not truly informed

  • and in the case of surrogacy the courts said

  • a mother can't know

  • even one who already has kids of her own,

  • what it would be like

  • to bear a child and give it up for pay.

  • so in order to assess

  • criticism, objection number one,

  • we have to figure out

  • just how free

  • does a voluntary exchange have to be with respect to the bargaining power

  • and equal information

  • question number one.

  • how do we assess

  • the second objection?

  • the second objection

  • is more elusive, it's more difficult

  • Andrew acknowledged this right?

  • what does it mean to say there's something dehumanizing

  • to make

  • childbearing

  • a market

  • transaction?

  • well one of the philosophers

  • we read on this subject Elizabeth Anderson

  • tries to give some bring some philosophical clarity to the unease

  • that Andrew articulated

  • she said by requiring the surrogate mother

  • to repress

  • whatever parental love she feels for the child

  • surrogacy

  • contracts convert women's labor into a form of alienated labor

  • the surrogate’s labor is alienated

  • because she must divert it from the end

  • from the and

  • which the social practices of pregnancy

  • rightly promote,

  • namely an emotional bond

  • with her child

  • so what Anderson is suggesting is that

  • certain goods

  • should not be treated as open to use

  • or to profit

  • certain goods are properly valued

  • in ways other than use

  • what are other

  • ways of valuing and treating?

  • good that should not be open to use?

  • Anderson says

  • there are many,

  • respect,

  • appreciation,

  • love,

  • honor, awe, sanctity

  • there are many modes of valuation

  • beyond use

  • and certain goods are not properly

  • valued

  • if they're treated

  • simply as objects of use.

  • how do we go about evaluating that argument of Anderson?

  • in a way it takes us back to the debate

  • we had with utilitarianism

  • is use

  • the only, in utility

  • is use,

  • the only proper way

  • of treating goods?

  • including life

  • military service

  • procreation

  • childbearing?

  • and if not,

  • how do we figure out

  • how can we determine

  • what modes of valuation

  • are fitting

  • are appropriate

  • to those goods

  • several years ago there but the scandal surrounding a doctor

  • an infertility specialist in Virginia named Cecil Jacobson

  • he didn't have a donor catalog

  • because unknown to his patients, all of the sperm he used to inseminate his patients

  • came from one donor

  • doctor Jacobson himself.

  • at least one woman who testified in court was unnerved

  • at how much

  • her newborn daughter

  • looked just like him

  • now it's possible to condemn

  • doctor Jacobson for failing to inform the women

  • in advance

  • that would be the argument about consent

  • the columnist Ellen Goodman

  • described the bizarre scenario as follows

  • doctor Jacobson, she wrote, gave his infertility business

  • the personal touch

  • but now the rest of us,

  • she wrote,

  • are in for a round of second thoughts

  • about sperm donation

  • Goodman concluded that fatherhood should be something you do

  • not something you donate,

  • and I think what she was doing

  • and what the philosopher Elizabeth Anderson is doing

  • and what Andrew was suggesting with this argument about dehumanization

  • is pondering whether there are certain goods that money shouldn't buy

  • not just because of tainted consent

  • but also perhaps

  • because certain goods are properly

  • valued

  • in a way a higher

  • than mere use

  • those at least are the questions we're going to pursue with the help of some philosophers

  • in the weeks to come

  • don't miss the chance to interact online with other viewers of Justice 0:54:01.280,0:54:03.829join the conversation, take a pop quiz,

  • watch lectures you've missed, and learn a lot more. Visit justiceharvard.org,

  • it's the right thing to do.

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B1 中級

正義。什麼是正確的事情?第05集:"僱來的槍" (Justice: What's The Right Thing To Do? Episode 05: "HIRED GUNS")

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