Name: 前首相：曼德爾森事件對基爾·斯塔默來說「情況嚴重」！ BBC新聞 (Former prime minister says Mandelson situation is 'serious' for Keir Starmer | BBC News)
Uploaded: 2026-02-08T17:11:16.000Z
Duration: 29 min 19 s

過去簡單式

It was a long interview and a moment of great peril from the government and a moment of great Labour introspection.

那是一段很長的訪談，對政府來說是個危險的時刻，也是 Labour 黨內省思的時刻。

So Gordon Brown will be talking about what he had to say to our colleagues on Radio 4 this morning.

所以 Gordon Brown 會聊聊他今天早上在 Radio 4 上跟我們的同事說了些什麼。

Also, I was asked to interview Barry Gardiner on Newsnight, Labour MP and asked him if Keir Starmer should go.

另外，我還被要求在 Newsnight 採訪 Barry Gardiner，他是 Labour 的 MP，我問他 Keir Starmer 該不該下臺。

That was the whole of what we as the Labour Party promised, this country change.

這就是我們 Labour Party 承諾給這個國家的全部，就是改變。

I think that he needs to think very hard about what is in the country's best interest and what is in his party's best interest.

我覺得他需要好好想想什麼對國家最好，什麼對他的黨最好。

You're saying you don't want to say it, but you're saying it with your eyes, Arlene.

你說你不想說，但你的眼神已經說出來了，Arlene。

Well, dramatic pauses can have a lot of meaning, can't they?

嗯，戲劇性的停頓可以有很多意義，不是嗎？

I know, but I think people are speechless, aren't they?

我知道，但我認為大家都很傻眼，不是嗎？

About the horror of what's been happening, as has been revealed in the emails from Jeffrey Epstein, but

關於 Jeffrey Epstein 的郵件揭露了那些可怕的事情，但

also the really doom laden scenario for the government.

也關於政府非常不樂觀的劇本。

I just wonder how long do you think Barry Gardner would have sat there if you hadn't said you're seeing it with your eyes?

我只是在想，如果妳沒說妳親眼看到，妳覺得 Barry Gardner 會在那裡坐多久？

Well, he still be sitting there now in the studio many some floors down from us on a Saturday news.

嗯，他現在可能還坐在演播室裡，離我們好幾層樓，在週六的節目裡。

I don't think he would have spoken, I really don't.

我不認為他會開口，我真的不認為。

It reminded me of another quite awkward moment, which was again one of those moments of sort of Liz Truss Birmingham Tory conference when she was in enormous trouble and the world was in meltdown.

這讓我想起另一個有點尷尬的時刻，那是在 Liz Truss 於伯明罕保守黨會議上，當時她陷入極大困境，而世界正處於崩潰邊緣。

And I asked her, how many people do you think voted for all of this?

我問她，妳覺得有多少人投票支持這一切？

Because remember, she'd been elected by Tory members, not by the country.

因為請記得，她是透過保守黨黨員選出的，而不是由國家選出的。

Well, you've set out a significant change of direction.

嗯，妳已經設定了一個重大的方向改變。

Yes, that was a moment that was almost as awkward when I asked the Ireland's chief economist what he thought about the Euro and then miraculously, mysteriously, the person who answered was actually the French ambassador in Dublin because there'd been traffic and they were sitting in the wrong seats on outside broadcast.

是的，那是一個幾乎同樣尷尬的時刻，當時我問了愛爾蘭的首席經濟學家對歐元的看法，然後奇蹟般地、神祕地，回答的人竟然是法國駐都柏林大使，因為交通堵塞，他們坐在了直播的錯誤座位上。

That's very much like the taxi driver who was interviewed as a tax expert.

這很像那位被採訪的計程車司機，他被當成了稅務專家。

我們還是別聊 BBC 的醜聞了吧。

And now we are well over a week since the first enormous news bomb occasion of the US justice releasing this enormous cache of more than 3 million documents relating to the activities of the now passed away convicted wealthy pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

距離美國司法部門公佈了超過三百萬份、與已故的、被判有罪的富商戀童癖者 Jeffrey Epstein 活動相關的文件這個爆炸性新聞事件，已經過了一個多星期了。

But the shock waves for our politics here in this country just keep coming.

但對我們國內政治的衝擊波還在持續不斷。

Yes, because we don't often get source material like this.

是啊，因為我們很少能拿到這種原始資料。

They try the authorities, establishment tries to give it a 30 year rule, then it will sometimes give it a 100 year rule and if they're really lucky, they can give it forever.

當局、體制會試著設下三十年的規定，然後有時候會變成一百年，如果他們真的很幸運，可能會永遠保密。

So to see emails from the Business Secretary to an outside interest during the financial crisis emergency Cabinet meeting is staggering.

所以看到商業部長在金融危機緊急內閣會議時，寄給外部人士的電子郵件，實在是太令人震驚了。

And I said this to Adam on Wednesday, I haven't seen a scandal like this, I really haven't.

我週三跟 Adam 說過，我真的沒見過這種醜聞，我真的沒見過。

And I've covered lots of nefarious bad behavior over the years.

我這些年來報導過很多惡劣的行為。

You know, whether that was politicians behaving badly in their private life, people doing things that they wouldn't be proud of if they emerged, involving talking to businesses or nudging here and hinting there, and

你知道，不管是政客在私生活中的不當行為，或是有些人做了他們不希望被揭露的事情，包括跟企業接觸，或是這裡推一下、那裡暗示一下，

frankly also just obviously often being very mean to each other and their colleagues.

坦白說，也常常就是對彼此和同事非常刻薄。

This is absolutely off the reservation in terms of the things that I've covered in 20 years in UK politics.

以我過去 20 年在英國政壇報導的內容來看，這件事完全超出了常規。

The suggestion that someone sitting in the UK cabinet at a time of genuine crisis was, according to these documents, passing information outside the government to an ally, to an ally of his who maybe stood to make great commercial gain from it.

根據這些文件，有人在英國內閣面臨真正危機的時候，卻把資訊傳給了政府外的一個盟友，一個可能從中獲得巨大商業利益的盟友。

And that's why you've heard politician after politician this week say they feel that Peter Mandelson betrayed Labour.

這就是為什麼這週你聽到一位又一位政治人物說，他們覺得 Peter Mandelson 背叛了 Labour。

It's why you've seen Keir Starmer tell us again and again and again and again how angry he is.

這就是為什麼你看到 Keir Starmer 一再、一再、一再地告訴我們他有多生氣。

But the question for me is not really this weekend about what's in the Epstein documents.

但對我來說，這個週末的問題不在於 Epstein 文件裡寫了什麼。

It's not really about what Peter Mandelson did or did not.

也不在於 Peter Mandelson 做了什麼或沒做什麼。

This me has moved to be a story all about the Prime Minister's authority and whether or not he can get through this moment of great jeopardy.

這件事現在變成了一個關於首相權威的故事，以及他是否能度過這個極度危險的時刻。

Into this, this morning, of course, walks Gordon Brown.

這時候，當然，Gordon Brown 在今天早上登場了。

Peter Mandelson has not given an official statement on the latest allegations of leaking sensitive financial information.

Peter Mandelson 並沒有針對最新洩漏敏感金融資訊的指控發表官方聲明。

But his position is that he's not acted in any way criminally and that he was not motivated by financial gain.

但他表示他沒有任何犯罪行為，也不是為了金錢利益。

我可以問你，憑藉你多年的經驗。

Of covering it inside, have you been surprised by the visceral shock and anger of the governing party?

在內部報導這件事，你對於執政黨表現出的強烈震驚和憤怒感到意外嗎？

I mean, I know there's a lot of blame to go around, but do you.

我的意思是，我知道有很多可以怪罪的對象，但你呢。

Are you surprised by how the Labour MPs are feeling?

你對 Labour 的 MP 們的感受感到意外嗎？

I think there's a few different things there.

So, one, I am not surprised at how taken aback people who were close colleagues of Peter Madison were at the time were people who felt they knew him.

所以，第一點，我並不意外那些曾與 Peter Mandelson 關係密切、覺得自己瞭解他的人，在那時候會感到如此震驚。

One minister said to me yesterday, you know, we thought he shared our values, and

一位部長昨天告訴我，你知道的，我們以為他跟我們有共同的價值觀，

And I'm not surprised either by how angry Keir Starmer is because he took a risk giving him the job knowing it was a risk, and

我也不意外 Keir Starmer 為什麼這麼生氣，因為他冒險給他這個職位，明知有風險，

that risk has turned out to be an absolutely calamitous political mistake.

而這個風險結果證明是一個絕對災難性的政治錯誤。

So I'm not surprised by how angry he is at that.

所以，我對他如此生氣並不感到意外。

I am, though, surprised by the nature of the scale of this, and

不過，我對這件事的規模和性質感到驚訝，

I'm also not surprised by the sentiment of some bits of the Labour Party who are, to some degree, going around with a little bit of satisfaction saying, I told you so.

我也不意外 Labour Party 中有些人，在某種程度上，帶著一點點「我早就說了吧」的滿足感到處說。

Peter Mandelson has always been a divisive figure in the labor movement.

Peter Mandelson 在工黨運動中一直都是個具爭議的人物。

You know, somebody else in the Cabinet said to me yesterday, I've always hated him and he's always hated me.

昨天內閣裡還有其他人跟我說，我一直討厭他，他也一直討厭我。

So this is not a sort of universal, oh, he was everybody's best friend.

所以這不是那種普遍的「喔，他跟每個人都是最好的朋友」的情況。

He's always been somebody, even from the early days, about whom people had reservations about his style of politics, his manner, the kinds of things that he.

他從早期開始，就一直是一個讓大家對他的政治風格、他的態度、他做過的事情有所保留的人。

And I think that element of this has maybe been a bit lost in the whole swirl of this, partly because the biggest sort of headline coming to Prime Minister is about how cross he was.

我覺得這部分可能在這整個風波中被忽略了，部分原因是因為給首相最大的頭條新聞是他有多生氣。

But there's always been hesitation about him, which of course, takes us back to the very, you know, this sort of fact of, I suppose, the political original sin.

但大家對他一直都有猶豫，這當然又讓我們回到，我想，政治上的原罪。

Keir Summer making the decision to take a risk because it was a risk and it was a judgment.

Keir Starmer 做出冒險的決定，因為這確實是個風險，也是一個判斷。

Kirsten is not responsible for Peter Mandelson's behavior, and

Kirsten 並不為 Peter Mandelson 的行為負責，

he's certainly not responsible for what happened in the government that was in charge more than 10 years ago.

他當然也不為十多年前執政政府發生的事負責。

But what he is responsible for is the decision that he made, and

但他必須負責的是他自己做出的決定，

he made the decision knowing it was a risk.

而且他在做出這個決定時，就知道這是有風險的。

So Gordon Brown, it was who appointed him back into his.

所以是 Gordon Brown 當時任命了他。

Hence the reason why we're talking about the emergency Cabinet cabinet meeting which Gordon Brown was chairing.

這也是為什麼我們在談論 Gordon Brown 主持的緊急內閣會議。

But he is sort of giving qualified support to Keir Starmer.

但他對 Keir Starmer 算是給予有條件的支持。

Here's what he said about the current Prime Minister, I know the man.

這是他對現任首相說的話：「我認識這個人。」

Look, in other Prime Ministers, you've been questioning their integrity, you've been questioning whether they are guilty of some unquestionable mistakes in terms of their personal finances and their personal lobbying and everything else.

看看，在其他幾位首相身上，你們質疑過他們的誠信，質疑過他們是否犯了某些個人財務和個人遊說等方面的不可饒恕的錯誤。

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前首相：曼德爾森事件對基爾·斯塔默來說「情況嚴重」！ BBC新聞 (Former prime minister says Mandelson situation is 'serious' for Keir Starmer | BBC News)

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