Name: 川普為何對明尼阿波利斯如此著迷？ | 今日解密 (Why is Trump obsessed with Minneapolis? | Today, Explained)
Uploaded: 2026-01-24T17:10:21.000Z
Duration: 27 min 40 s

Hi, and welcome to Today Explained Saturday.

哈囉，歡迎來到「今日解釋星期六」。

未來進行式

every week I'll be talking to someone in the news, in the culture, or just exploring an idea I can't get out of my head.

每週我都會找一位新聞界、文化界的朋友，或是探討一個我腦中揮之不去的主題。

This week, we're in Minneapolis, where thousands of federal immigration agents have descended on the city in recent months.

這週，我們來到明尼阿波利斯，近幾個月來，有數千名聯邦移民及海關執法局（ICE）的幹員湧入這座城市。

And it's also the site of the fatal killing of Renee Good, the protester who was shot and killed by ICE officers.

這裡也是抗議者 Renee Good 的不幸喪生之地，她被 ICE 幹員槍殺。

By now, we've all seen the video and we've heard the statements from President Trump in his cabinet.

到現在，我們都看過影片，也聽過川普總統和他的內閣的聲明。

But I wanted to dig in deeper into the context behind this fatal encounter.

但我想深入挖掘這場致命衝突的背景。

Why is ICE in Minneapolis in the first place?

ICE 為什麼會出現在明尼阿波利斯？

What happens if Donald Trump invokes the Insurrection Act?

如果川普總統引用《叛亂法案》（Insurrection Act）會怎麼樣？

And what are Democrats going to do to push back against federal officials?

那民主黨會怎麼做來對抗聯邦官員呢？

So this week, I talked to Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, and

所以這週，我訪問了明尼蘇達州檢察總長 Keith Ellison，

I put all those questions in front of him.

Attorney General Keith Ellison, thank you for joining us, particularly at this difficult time for your state.

Keith Ellison 檢察總長，謝謝您接受訪問，尤其是在您州裡這個艱難的時刻。

I wanted to talk to you not only because of the recent news, but

我之所以想跟您聊，不只是因為最近的新聞，

also because you have had a history here in Minnesota.

也是因為您在明尼蘇達州有過一段經歷。

Also, the political questions I think have come up for Democrats, for you and others, in response to Donald Trump's deployment here in Minnesota.

另外，我認為對於民主黨、對您和其他人來說，面對川普總統在這裡的部署，也出現了一些政治上的問題。

Obviously, one of the unique things about this incident is how quickly the White House moved to place blame on the victim.

很明顯，這起事件獨特之處在於白宮迅速地將矛頭指向受害者。

Secretary of State Kristi Nunn said this was an act of domestic terrorism.

國務卿 Kristi Nunn 表示，這是一起國內恐怖主義事件。

Almost Immediately, Vice President J.D. vance said that Renee Goode was a, quote, deranged leftist.

幾乎是立刻，副總統 J.D. Vance 就說 Renee Goode 是個，引述，精神錯亂的左翼份子。

I wanted to know, did those statements impact your ability to go about your job, and

我想知道，這些說法是否影響了您工作的進行，

還有，如果有的話，是怎麼影響的？

Yeah, I thought they were deeply callous, and I thought they showed no compassion for Ms.

是啊，我覺得那些說法非常冷酷無情，而且我覺得他們對 Ms.

Good or her family or her children or anyone.

Good 或她的家人或她的孩子或任何人，都毫無同情心。

I thought to myself, this can't be how these officials are handling this.

我心想，官員們處理事情怎麼會是這樣。

Normally, officials in my position and in theirs say, wait, let's do an investigation.

通常，在我這個職位以及他們那個職位的官員都會說，等等，我們先做調查。

我們對這裡所有相關人士都感到非常抱歉。

And that's been Democrats and Republicans, Democrats and Republicans.

而且這一直是民主黨和共和黨，民主黨和共和黨。

This is the normal way that we do these things, but

這就是我們平常處理事情的方式，但

we're not doing these things the normal way.

And they came out swinging, justifying the actions of the officer right away.

他們一開始就猛烈抨擊，立刻為警官的行為辯護。

And my thought is, if the officer is as innocent as you claim that he is, why not let's just have a investigation and then say, look, you know, this is a horrible tragedy, but

我心想，如果警官真的像你們說的那麼無辜，為什麼不直接進行調查，然後說，看，你知道，這是一場可怕的悲劇，但是

here's the conclusion that we've come to after reviewing the evidence.

這是我們在審查證據後得出的結論。

And that just really is Another reminder of how much we're in new territory right now.

這再次提醒我們，我們現在真的處在一個全新的局面。

You know, I don't want to make a one to one comparison to what Republicans said and what Democrats have said.

你知道，我不想把共和黨說的話和民主黨說的話做一對一的比較。

But you know, Mayor Jacob Fry here did famously say, get the F out of our city to ice.

但你知道，市長 Jacob Fry 曾說過，滾出我們的城市，對 ICE 說。

You did have Governor Walls kind of characterizing this as an occupation.

你確實有州長 Walls 把這件事形容為一場佔領。

Do those statements from Democrats turn the temperature down or were they also, you know, part of a turning up of tension?

民主黨的這些說法，是讓氣氛降溫，還是也算是加劇了緊張局勢？

No, because those statements were made in reaction to the escalation in which there was no Democratic conduct that sort of brought this escalation on.

沒有，因為這些說法是針對事態升級的回應，民主黨並沒有做出什麼行為導致了這次升級。

So the dramatic escalation happens regardless of what either one of them say, temperate or intemperate.

所以，無論他們說什麼，是溫和還是激進，戲劇性的升級都會發生。

And I will say this part of what it means to be an elected official is to channel the emotional vector of your electorate.

我想說，身為民選官員的一部分，就是要引導選民的情緒走向。

Of course, the latest escalation from the federal government was the announcement that the Justice Department is now investigating Governor Tim Walls and make up Jacob Frye and saying they impeded officers from doing their work.

當然，聯邦政府最新的升級行動是司法部宣佈正在調查州長 Tim Walls 和市長 Jacob Frye，並指控他們阻礙執法人員工作。

Here I was going to put that in front of you.

我本來要把這個放在你面前的。

How do you see these criminal subpoenas and has.

你怎麼看待這些刑事傳票，以及。

Have Democrats in Minnesota impeded the federal government from what they would say is lawful immigration enforcement?

明尼蘇達州的民主黨人是否阻礙了聯邦政府執行他們所謂的合法移民執法？

Well, you've just pointed out that the mayor and the governor are under federal investigation.

嗯，你剛剛指出市長和州長都面臨聯邦調查。

You know who's not under federal investigation?

你知道誰沒有面臨聯邦調查嗎？

Well, Jonathan Ross, that's who's not under investigation.

嗯，喬納森羅斯，他沒有被調查。

This is clearly a weaponization of the criminal justice system.

這顯然是司法體系被武器化了。

Just like Letitia James, just like James Comey, just like others who have been unjustly targeted out of revenge, out of malice, out of retribution.

就像莉蒂西亞詹姆斯一樣，就像詹姆斯柯米一樣，就像其他因為報復、惡意、報仇而被不公對待的人一樣。

You know, we've seen reporting that the federal government has shut out state and local agencies from the investigation into Reno goods killing.

你知道嗎，我們有看到報導說，聯邦政府在 Reno goods 命案的調查中，把州和地方機構排除在外了。

And what's the status of the federal investigation and its relationship to what you all are doing in the state?

那聯邦調查的進度如何，還有它跟你們州這邊正在做的事情有什麼關係？

From the federal government's perspective, what we know is at least three or four things.

從聯邦政府的角度來看，我們知道至少有三四件事。

Number one, the United States Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, whose job it is to investigate use of four death cases, has.

第一，美國司法部民權司，他們的職責就是調查使用致命武力的案件，他們已經。

Has declined before there's been any investigation.

在任何調查之前就已經拒絕了。

They have said publicly, we will not even open an investigation.

他們公開說了，我們甚至不會展開調查。

And these are the people whose job it is to do this work.

而這些人正是負責做這件事的。

We've seen six assistant US Attorneys quit because they were told you're going to investigate Renee Goode and Becca Goode, her wife.

我們看到有六位美國助理檢察官辭職，因為他們被告知你們要調查 Renee Goode 和她的妻子 Becca Goode。

And we're not doing any investigation on Renee Goode's death.

而且我們不會對 Renee Goode 的死進行任何調查。

As you've already noted, state and local prosecutors have been informed that they're not going to be allowed to have access to the investigative file that the FBI has acquired so far.

正如您已經指出的，州和地方檢察官已經被告知，他們將無法取得 FBI 到目前為止所獲得的調查檔案。

You know, things like bullet casings, things like the car which has the windows, which can help show trajectory.

你知道，像是彈殼，像是那輛有車窗的車，這可以幫助顯示彈道。

You don't, you all don't have access to the car at this point?

你們現在都無法取得那輛車嗎？

We're hoping that the federal government changes its mind because it's so clearly unjust that for them to deny.

我們希望聯邦政府能改變主意，因為他們這樣拒絕實在太不公平了。

And in the past, these kind of investigations are done jointly.

過去，這類調查都是聯合進行的。

I guess one thing I was asking, though, is because of the degree to which Donald Trump made clear that his plans were to ramp up a mobilization in cities like Minneapolis and because of the kind of growth we've seen over the last several months, is there anything that state officials could have done to prevent what has now become a deadly encounter?

我想我問的一點是，因為唐納·川普已經明確表示，他的計畫是要在像明尼亞波利斯這樣的城市加強動員，而且考量到過去幾個月我們看到的成長，州級官員有沒有可能做些什麼來阻止現在這場致命的衝突？

Is there a way that that kind of telegraphing could have been an off ramp and that off ramp wasn't taken?

那種預告是否有可能是一個可以讓事情緩和的機會，而這個機會卻沒有被抓住？

And I would have to say not to my knowledge, because our lawsuit, we're not saying that ICE doesn't have a right to, doesn't have a right to exist in Minnesota.

我必須說，據我所知沒有，因為我們的訴訟，我們不是說 ICE 沒有權利，沒有權利在明尼蘇達州存在。

ICE existed before and we didn't sue them.

ICE 以前就存在了，而我們並沒有告他們。

Ice, even ice, has an obligation to, to abide by the law and to obey the Constitution, the Fourth Amendment.

ICE，即使是 ICE，也有義務遵守法律，遵守憲法，也就是第四修正案。

They have a obligation to not break and violate things like the Administrative Procedures act and the policy of the government through ice, cannot be arbitrary or capricious, and

他們有義務不要違法，不要違反像《行政程序法》這樣的規定，而且政府透過 ICE 的政策，不能是任意或反覆無常的，

they can't violate the sovereignty of the state of Minnesota vis a vis the 10th Amendment.

他們不能違反明尼蘇達州的州權，這跟第十修正案有關。

So, yeah, if ICE would have come here and even if they had more people and then just operated in the way that ICE historically has operated, which some agree with and some don't, I tend to be not that big of a fan, but

所以，嗯，如果 ICE 來到這裡，即使他們人更多，然後就以 ICE 過去一貫的運作方式來行動，有些人同意，有些人不同意，我個人不太喜歡，但是

I'm, but I don't question their existence, but I, but this lawsuit is about their conduct.

我，但我不會質疑他們的存在，但是，但是這個訴訟是關於他們的行為。

現在，我原本想問一件事，而且

this is not, again, I don't want to be placing blame on, on individuals.

這不是，我再次強調，我不想責怪，責怪任何人。

Yeah, you're asking a good question, but I want to put it in front of you.

嗯，你問了一個很好的問題，但我想把它擺在你面前。

是的，但這些是會造成幹擾的。

And there are folks who are coming out with the purposes of, at minimum, annoying ice, but

而且有些人出來的目的，最少是惹惱 ICE，但

at maximum, disrupting some of their activities.

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