Name: 川普的關稅威脅將如何重塑美歐關係？| BBC News (How will Trump's tariff threats reshape the US-Europe relationship? | BBC News)
Uploaded: 2026-01-18T17:17:32.000Z
Duration: 39 min 46 s

Laura, you're here when we didn't expect to be here.

Laura，妳來得正好，我們都沒想到妳會在這裡。

轉承詞

But that's good because it's a very busy news day.

但這樣很好，因為今天新聞真的很忙碌。

We would never do that when we said I wouldn't be here, but something I was meant to be doing after the program has now not happened.

我說我不會在這裡的時候，我們絕對不會騙人，但節目後我原本要做的事情現在沒有發生了。

And that is why I'm here and delighted to be so.

這就是我為什麼在這裡，也很開心能來到這裡。

It is a massive day to have everyone here.

能夠讓大家齊聚一堂，這真是個重要的日子。

So we've got you, we've got Henry, and we've enlisted a mystery political editor who we'll get to in a minute.

所以我們有妳，有 Henry，還找來了一位神祕的政治編輯，我們等一下就會介紹到他。

Donald Trump has threatened the UK with tariffs over Greenland.

川普威脅要對英國課徵格陵蘭關稅。

Yes, not just the UK but other European allies, too, who had the temerity to send a small number of military personnel to Greenland this week.

不只英國，還有其他歐洲盟友，他們這週竟然膽敢派少數軍事人員前往格陵蘭。

They seem to think that might please the president because it would say, look, Europe's taking the security of that part of the world very seriously.

他們似乎覺得這樣做可能會討好總統，因為這會說，看，歐洲非常重視那個地區的安全。

Donald Trump seems to have had a very different interpretation of what that really meant, which we will discuss on Sunday's newscast.

唐納·川普似乎對這句話的真正含義有非常不同的解讀，我們會在週日的新聞節目中討論。

Hello, it's Laura actually here in the studio.

哈囉，我是 Laura，人在攝影棚。

It's Henry in the studio in real life and our mystery guest.

我是 Henry，本人就在攝影棚，還有我們的神祕嘉賓。

Kate Ferguson from the sun on Sunday, political editor.

Kate Ferguson，《太陽報》週日版政治編輯。

Think of all the rivals who wanted that job and you beat it.

想想所有想得到這個職位、但被你擊敗的競爭對手。

One of the things we will need to get to is the the Trump whisperer, Keir Starmer, and how much the whisper, how good the whispering looks.

我們需要談談「川普傳聲筒」Keir Starmer，以及他的耳語聽起來有多厲害。

Yes, I think the whispering doesn't look that smart this morning.

是的，我覺得今天早上他的耳語聽起來沒那麼聰明。

But if you've been under a rock, let's just tell people what Donald Trump has actually threatened.

不過如果你一直躲起來，那我們就來告訴大家川普到底威脅了什麼。

So he, in classic Trump style, posted on his own truth social platform yesterday that because of the UK and other European allies playing what he described as a dangerous.

所以他昨天以經典川普風格，在他的 Truth Social 平臺上發文表示，因為英國和其他歐洲盟友做了他形容為危險的舉動。

He has threatened from 1 February that Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, the U.K. netherlands and Finland will be charged a 10% tariff on any and all goods being sent to the US and raising that tariff to 25% in June unless he is allowed to do the complete purchase of Greenland.

他威脅說，從 2 月 1 日起，丹麥、挪威、瑞典、法國、德國、英國、荷蘭和芬蘭出口到美國的任何商品都將被課徵 10% 的關稅，並在 6 月將關稅提高到 25%，除非允許他完全收購格陵蘭。

Henry, test of the special relationship just a little bit, I think.

Henry，這對「特殊關係」來說可是一大考驗，我認為。

I mean, not just because of the tariffs, though, obviously the tariff that Donald Trump is threatening to impose, particularly the 25% one, if that comes to pass in six months time, is a very big deal, especially because Sir Keir Starmer sees the great triumph of his approach to Donald Trump over the past year being the deal he secured to mitigate the impact of Donald Trump's global tariffs that he unleashed almost a year ago.

我的意思是，不只是因為關稅，雖然顯然川普威脅要施加的關稅，特別是 25% 的那項，如果六個月後真的發生，那可是件大事，尤其是因為 Keir Starmer 爵士認為他過去一年來對待川普的策略大獲全勝，就是他成功談判降低了川普近一年前發動的全球關稅的影響。

So it's a test of the special relationship economically, but it is also a massive test of the special relationship because Sir Keir Starmer, for the last couple of weeks, has drawn a line when it comes to Greenland, and he has said very clearly that the UK simply does not believe that the US's ambitions as regards Greenland should fly, that the future of Greenland is a matter for the people of Greenland and for the Kingdom of Denmark.

所以這在經濟上是對「特殊關係」的考驗，但這也是對「特殊關係」的巨大考驗，因為 Keir Starmer 爵士在過去幾週來，對於格陵蘭問題劃下了界線，他非常清楚地表示，英國根本不認為美國在格陵蘭方面的野心應該得逞，格陵蘭的未來是格陵蘭人民和丹麥王國的事。

And this is Donald Trump saying quite clearly that he disagrees and that he is willing to take quite strong action against the UK unless the UK drops its objections.

而這就是川普非常清楚地表示他不同意，並且願意對英國採取相當強硬的行動，除非英國放棄反對。

It's a big threat and for many people, I think, quite a gobsmacking threat.

這是一個很大的威脅，我認為對很多人來說，這是一個令人瞠目結舌的威脅。

Yeah, I mean, it's a night, a nightmare thing to happen to this Labour government on a Saturday night.

是啊，我的意思是，這對工黨政府來說，在週六晚上發生這種事，簡直是場惡夢。

I think it's, to say the least, is there's three.

我認為，至少可以說，有三件事。

There's three things politically I think are interesting.

我認為有三件事在政治上很有趣。

Number one, I mean, if these tariffs go ahead, it's going to wipe billions off the economy.

第一點，我的意思是，如果這些關稅真的實施，將會讓經濟損失數十億。

Our economy, already growing so sluggish, will be on recession watch again.

我們本已增長緩慢的經濟，將再次面臨衰退的監視。

Nightmare for Rachel Reeves, you know, could that even push us into recession?

對 Rachel Reeves 來說是場惡夢，你知道，這會不會把我們推向衰退？

The, you know, yes, we've got this big thing called the special relationship, But Keir Starmer's whole MO now is that he's meant to be Europe's Trump whisperer.

你知道，是的，我們有這件大事叫做「特殊關係」，但 Keir Starmer 現在的整個策略是，他應該是歐洲的川普傳聲筒。

So if we don't get a carve out, where does that leave him?

所以如果我們沒有得到豁免，那會把他放在什麼位置？

And interestingly, we've seen this kind of civil war and labor bubble up again over the weekend, all this talk of leadership plots.

而且有趣的是，我們週末又看到這種黨內鬥爭和勞工動盪，到處都在談論領導權的陰謀。

So if Keir Starmer isn't the Trump whisperer, then what is his MO as pm?

所以如果 Keir Starmer 不是川普的傳聲筒，那他當首相的策略是什麼？

You wouldn't normally turn to the Culture Secretary, but she's a senior Labour figure, so how was she trying to triangulate?

你平常不會找文化大臣，但她是工黨的重要人物，所以她是如何試圖周旋的？

Well, what was interesting is that Lisa Nandi did two things, is one, she did all the kinds of rhetorical things that you would expect.

嗯，有趣的是，Lisa Nandi 做了兩件事，第一是她做了所有你預期會聽到的那種修辭。

She said, we want to negotiate, we've got a great relationship.

她說，我們想要協商，我們有很棒的關係。

The whole point of having a good relationship is that you can negotiate and you can persuade and you can cajole and you can argue.

擁有良好關係的重點就是你可以協商、可以說服、可以哄騙、可以爭辯。

She also, I think, in the most strident terms we've seen in the last 24 hours, that this government has ever really said anything about the American administration.

她還說，我認為，在過去 24 小時內我們看到最激烈的 terms，是這個政府對美國政府說過任何話。

They said Trump is completely wrong to do this.

他們說川普這麼做是完全錯的。

And she said on several occasions, very firmly, that the government does not in any way, shape or form believe that they should back down over the position of Greenland, believe that Greenland and Denmark and other European allies should back down.

而且她好幾次非常堅定地表示，政府絕不以任何方式、任何形式認為他們應該在格陵蘭問題上退縮，也不認為格陵蘭、丹麥和其他歐洲盟友應該退縮。

The question then of course comes, well, do you think Donald Trump's going to back down?

那接下來的問題當然是，你覺得川普會讓步嗎？

But she was very resolute and this is what she had to say.

We're working really hard to make sure that we're not in that situation.

我們正努力確保我們不會陷入那種情況。

I appreciate that it would be tempting to come on here and give you a range of things that the government will do, but actually the one thing that we won't do is compromise on our position, which is that the future of Greenland is a matter for the people of Greenland and the people of the Kingdom of Denmark.

我很感激，你們可能會想來這裡說一堆政府會做的事，但實際上，我們唯一不會做的事，就是妥協我們的立場，也就是格陵蘭的未來，是格陵蘭人民和丹麥王國人民的事。

That is the starting point for the conversation.

What happens next is a result of the conversations that we're going to be able to.

接下來會發生什麼，是我們能進行的談判結果。

You will never allow Donald Trump to take Greenland if you can possibly help it.

只要有可能，你絕不會讓川普得到格陵蘭。

Well, we would never allow any changes to be made to the future of Greenland without the consent of the people of Greenland and the people of the Kingdom of Denmark.

嗯，我們絕不會在未經格陵蘭人民和丹麥王國人民同意的情況下，對格陵蘭的未來做任何改變。

They have a right to decide how the future of their own country and we'll work with them to support them on that.

他們有權決定自己國家的未來，我們會與他們合作支持他們。

But it's right that we're absolutely crystal clear about it.

但我們必須非常清楚地說明這一點。

I mean, just to underline, Henry, how extraordinary this is, these countries are all formal allies who have very real deep historic links with each other in terms of helping each other's security situation, sharing intelligence, sharing military decision making structures, weaponry, all these kinds of things.

我想強調一下，Henry，這件事有多麼不尋常。這些國家都是正式的盟友，彼此之間有著深厚的歷史淵源，在互相支援安全、分享情報、軍事決策結構、武器裝備等方面都有合作。

And here we have have America threatening NATO allies.

而現在，美國卻在威脅北約盟友。

And I think the fairly even tone in which Lisa Nandi gave that answer perhaps slightly obscures what a huge moment this is.

我認為 Lisa Nandi 回答時語氣相當平靜，這或許稍微掩蓋了這個時刻的重大性。

I mean, this is such a profound rupture happening in plain sight between the UK and various other major European and NATO allies and the US between the US's traditional allies on the European continent in the world, frankly.

這是在眾目睽睽之下，英國與歐洲及北約的幾個主要盟友之間，以及美國與歐洲大陸傳統盟友之間，甚至全世界的盟友之間，正在發生的一場深刻的斷裂。

Now, what I think is interesting is that over the next few days, I think you will have people say, people who have long been critics of the relationship between the UK and the US and this notion, they would say delusion that it's special.

現在，我覺得有趣的是，在接下來的幾天裡，我認為會有人出來說，那些長期以來批評英美關係的人，以及那種「特殊關係」的迷思，他們會說這是一種錯覺。

Who will say, look, Donald Trump is actually just reflecting reality here.

誰會說，看，唐納·川普其實只是反映了現實。

The power dynamics of these relationships are actually that the US does hold the cards, that NATO is nothing without the US getting what it wants out of it, that the US UK relationship is not special.

這些關係的權力動態其實是美國掌握著籌碼，北約沒有美國的期望就什麼都不是，美英關係並不是特殊的。

The UK actually is just a subservient partner to the us, which is willing to host various bases and so on, because the UK is a lesser country and less powerful.

英國其實只是美國的附屬夥伴，願意接待各種基地等等，因為英國是一個較弱、較不強大的國家。

Now, that is very much not Keir Starmer's view.

現在，這完全不是基爾·斯塔默的觀點。

That is very much not the mainstream view of the Labour leadership, but it is a view of a part of Keir Starmer's parliamentary party and a part of Keir Starmer's electoral coalition.

這完全不是工黨領導層的主流觀點，但這是基爾·斯塔默議會黨團一部分人的觀點，也是基爾·斯塔默選舉聯盟一部分人的觀點。

And he has suppressed that tendency for a year.

But I think it's going to get harder, not least because he himself is going to have to criticize Donald Trump probably as soon as tomorrow.

但我認為這會變得更困難，不僅僅是因為他自己可能最快明天就得批評唐納·川普。

Can we say where sun readers are on this?

我們能說《太陽報》的讀者對此有什麼看法嗎？

We think of the sun as one of the barometers of public opinion, and you probably don't want to speak for all of them.

我們認為《太陽報》是公眾意見的晴雨表之一，而你可能不想代表他們所有人發言。

But what are some of the moving points, moving parts for sun readers this week?

但《太陽報》讀者這週有哪些值得關注的動態呢？

I think in terms of this story, there'll be a few things that will worry my readers and should worry kind of everyone.

我覺得就這則新聞來說，會有幾件事讓我讀者擔心，也應該讓大家擔心。

First of all, if you get involved in a kind of tariff war, if tariffs are slapped on us, that's going to push up, that's going to harm the economy.

首先，如果你捲入關稅大戰，如果我們被課徵關稅，那會推升，會損害經濟。

And once the dust settles, it's going to push up prices.

而且一旦塵埃落定，物價就會上漲。

Actually, I'm sorry, I'm interrupting, but that's a great piece for the sun tomorrow.

其實，抱歉，我打斷一下，但這對明天的太陽報來說是個很棒的報導。

What would 10% look like in a supermarket?

So anything that pushes up costs, especially when we've just come out of like, really sluggish wage growth, a long period of inflation, that big cost of living squeeze, which is the perennial topic of political discussion domestically, that is a problem for not just my readers, your listeners, all voters, really, because everyone's feeling that squeeze in terms of these kind of slightly more political, grandiose ideas of the special relationship with or this place called Greenland, you know, up there somewhere.

所以任何會推升成本的事情，特別是當我們剛經歷了像是非常緩慢的薪資成長、長期的通貨膨脹、那種巨大的生活成本壓力，這一直是國內政治討論的永恆話題，這不僅對我的讀者、你的聽眾、所有選民來說都是個問題，因為大家都在感受這種壓力，尤其是在這些關於與格陵蘭這個地方的特殊關係，你知道的，就在那邊的某些更政治化、更宏大的想法上。

Look, what I think my readers will think is that we need to.

聽著，我認為我的讀者會覺得我們需要。

There is a realism that you were talking about how America do hold a lot of the cards.

你提到了美國確實握有很多籌碼，這是一種現實主義。

Europe have underinvested in our defense a long time.

歐洲長久以來在國防上投資不足。

So, you know, here comes along a president that's fed up and, yes, making very controversial noises and decisions.

所以，你知道的，現在出現了一位受夠了的總統，而且，是的，他做出了非常有爭議的言論和決定。

But I think this will reinforce that argument for my readers that we need to be taking our own defence seriously and investing in it.

但我認為這會加強我讀者們的論點，也就是我們需要認真看待自己的國防並對其進行投資。

所以今天我在 Radio 4 上發言了。

Kate was our guest on our program as well.

So it's lovely for me to have all hour of Kate's time.

所以很高興我能有凱特整整一小時的時間。

Lord Simon MacDonald, who's the former permanent Under Secretary at the Foreign Office, said something from his perch which is very similar to Henry's briefing.

前外交部常務次長西蒙·麥克唐納勳爵，從他的角度說了一些與亨利的簡報非常相似的話。

Mr. Trump wants Greenland, and the threat of tariffs is a mechanism to try to help him to achieve that objective.

川普先生想要格陵蘭，而關稅威脅是一種幫助他達成這個目標的機制。

It certainly grabbed everybody attention.