Name: 世界變局下，德國轉向印度？🇩🇪🇮🇳 | 柏林簡報 Podcast (As the world shifts, Germany turns to India — Will it work? | Berlin Briefing Podcast)
Uploaded: 2026-01-16T17:47:10.000Z
Duration: 45 min 53 s

So we've talked a lot about how Germany's familiar old world seems to be falling apart around it, with Russia waging war, the US Going full on, nationalist China seeking economic domination, and

所以我們談了很多德國熟悉的舊世界似乎正在分崩離析，俄羅斯發動戰爭，美國全面民族主義，中國尋求經濟主導，以及

情態副詞

So no wonder the government here in Berlin is desperately looking around the world for new friends and new opportunities to try to spin up a more positive story.

所以難怪柏林政府在這裡絕望地環顧世界，尋找新朋友和新機會，試圖編織一個更正面的故事。

Well, that's why Friedrich Schmertz was just in India for his first trip to Asia since taking office, with lots of good vibes and lots of announcements and a big business delegation in tow.

這就是為什麼弗里德里希·施梅茨剛結束對印度的訪問，這是他上任以來首次亞洲之行，帶著滿滿的善意、許多宣佈和一個龐大的商業代表團。

Now, there's long been a sense that the Germany, India relationship has been a bit of a damp squib.

現在，長久以來一直有一種感覺，認為德印關係一直有點像個無趣的發展。

So in this edition of Berlin Briefing, we're going to ask this time, is it for real?

所以，在本期的柏林簡報中，我們這次要問，這是真的嗎？

We have Mishaela Kufner here in the studio, as well as Biresh Banerjee.

米夏埃拉·庫夫納在演播室，還有比雷什·班納吉。

And across in Delhi, we have Sandra Petersman, our bureau chief there.

而在德里，我們有我們的記者主管桑德拉·彼得斯曼。

I think, first of all, we're going to talk about the vibes, then we're going to get on to the business and the defense.

我想，首先，我們會先聊聊氣氛，然後再談到業務和國防。

And then finally we're going to pose that question, is this for real?

最後，我們會提出這個問題：這是真的嗎？

But first of all, vibes, I think, Michaela, you are definitely the best person to kick off this conversation because you were traveling with Metz, you were on the plane, you often do this.

不過首先，關於氣氛，米夏埃拉，你絕對是開啟這段對話的最佳人選，因為你當時和梅爾茨一起旅行，你也在飛機上，你經常這樣做。

But this trip definitely had more vibes than the average one for a German delegation.

但這次旅行的氣氛，絕對比德國代表團的平均水平來得更熱絡。

Well, a lot of business and defense vibes, a large delegation of CEOs.

嗯，有很多業務和國防方面的交流，還有一個龐大的執行長團隊。

And of course, there's always the wow factor when any German leader travels to India.

當然，任何德國領導人訪問印度時，總會有一種令人驚豔的感覺。

我也曾和安格拉·梅克爾一起去，

she was really taken aback, first of all by the magnitude of everything, but

她真的嚇了一跳，首先是事情的規模，

And it was back then also Narendra Modi, he faces Personally, it's 1.4 billion people.

那時候，納倫德拉·莫迪也面臨著，個人來說，是14億人口。

So you have here the leader of the third largest economy in the world realizing, yes, it's a large economy in terms of revenue and everything, but

所以你會看到，世界第三大經濟體的領導人意識到，是的，從收入和各方面來說，這是一個大經濟體，但是

this really is a lot of people and a lot of photographs of yourself in the streets.

這真的很多人，而且街上到處都是你的照片。

There were thousands of photographs of Friedrich Merz.

有成千上萬張弗里德里希·梅爾茨的照片。

This is a courtesy by the Indian government.

There's sort of placards around this line everywhere.

And I had seen it before because it was similar with Angela Merkel, but

我以前也見過，因為安格拉·梅克爾的時候也是這樣，但是

I have seen so many images of Friedrich Merc as I'VE in.

我看過好多弗里德里希·梅爾茨的照片，就像我以前看過的那些一樣。

In one day alone as I've ever seen in my entire life.

僅僅一天內，這是我這輩子看過最多的。

You assume he does have sufficient ego to cope with that.

你覺得他有足夠的自負來應付這些。

At the same time, you do want to make sure that the photo you hand in for that particular occasion is one you're happy with.

同時，你也會想確保你為那個特別場合提交的照片是你滿意的。

Clearly, that is a dynamism that is also deliberate.

From the Indian side, I think a lot of it is cultural as well.

我認為印度方面，很多也是文化使然。

And they did go to this kite festival, which, of course, was fantastic pictures, where you see then pictures a kite with the images of the leaders concerned flying high in the sky.

他們去了這個風箏節，當然拍下了超棒的照片，照片裡可以看到，有著相關領導人肖像的風箏在高空中飛翔。

And to us, it's very intense to look at this kind of imagery and this kind of spiritual, enthusiastic take on what really is a very tough political conversation between two sides.

對我們來說，看到這種影像和這種精神飽滿、熱情洋溢的詮釋，來討論兩方之間非常艱難的政治對話，是相當強烈的感受。

Was this the first time Mats was flying a kite?

聽著，我沒有確切的消息來源，但

I know that his enthusiasm for kite flying is not documented at all.

我知道他對放風箏的熱情完全沒有被記錄下來。

And this was in Modi's hometown in Gujarat state.

這是發生在莫迪家鄉古吉拉特邦。

So this was a particular kind of, like, recognition, a gesture that Modi could give to Merz.

所以這是一種特別的、像是莫迪可以給梅爾茲的認可、一種姿態。

I mean, this is not the first world leader to receive this honor.

我的意思是，這不是第一位獲得這項榮譽的世界領導人。

To fly down to Ahmedabad, Gujarat, his home state, where Narendra Modi was the chief minister, the main leader of the state for more than 10 years.

飛到艾哈邁達巴德，古吉拉特邦，他的家鄉，納倫德拉·莫迪曾擔任邦首席部長、主要領導人超過十年。

That's where he really made his brand, Modi.

那就是他真正打造他個人品牌的地方，莫迪。

But remember, Xi Jinping was there in 2014, and

但請記住，習近平在2014年也在那裡，然後

then what did you have six years later in 2020?

A clash between Chinese Indian troops in which lives were lost.

中印部隊發生衝突，造成人員傷亡。

You had other leaders who have also come to Ahmedabad, and

你還有其他領導人也來過艾哈邁達巴德，而且

I'm forgetting some of them, but Trump, famously.

我有點忘了，但川普，大家都知道。

There was a huge event in one of the biggest cricket stadiums in the world.

在全世界最大的板球場之一，辦了一場盛大的活動。

India paying 50% tariffs, the threat of secondary sanctions, and

印度要付50%的關稅，還有次級制裁的威脅，以及

personal ridicule on very public platforms from President Trump for the Prime Minister of India.

川普總統在公開平臺上，對印度總理進行的個人嘲諷。

And Vladimir Putin just got a hug from Modi as well?

No, he was there in the same car as Modi in December last year when they drove back in the same car from the airport.

沒有，去年十二月他們從機場搭同一臺車回去的時候，普丁總統就在同一臺車裡。

But what I'm saying is that Ahmedabad is reserved for special guests.

但我說的是，艾哈邁達巴德是留給貴賓的。

But just because you're in Ahmedabad doesn't mean that things will pan out all peachy.

不過，就算你在艾哈邁達巴德，事情也不見得會一切順利。

Although I'm hoping that the Indians believe that With Chancellor Mats, it'll be slightly different.

雖然我希望印度人相信，有梅爾茲總理在，情況會稍微不同。

And Sandra over there in Delhi, like, how are the vibes in terms of the kind of coverage and attention that this trip got?

還有桑德拉在德里那邊，這次訪問得到的報導和關注度如何？

If you say compared to other leaders, there was certainly more coverage, especially leading up to the Merz visit.

如果跟其他領導人比起來，報導確實比較多，尤其是在梅爾茲訪問之前。

On the day itself, at least in the second half of the day, there was a bit of a competition as well, because not only was Chancellor Metz and Prime Minister Modi doing kite diplomacy in Ahmedabad, at the same time, we saw the new US Ambassador, Sergio Gore, who is also in extensive mentioned the special Envoy for South and Central Asia taking office here in Delhi.

當天，至少在下午，也有點小競爭，因為不只梅爾茲總理和莫迪總理在艾哈邁達巴德進行風箏外交，同時我們也看到美國新任大使塞吉歐·戈爾，他同時也是南亞和中亞事務特使，在德里就任。

So you could really see the electronic media switching from Ahmedabad over to Delhi because Serge also came in with a presser announcing that India, of course, is a very, very important partner to the United States.

所以你可以看到電子媒體從艾哈邁達巴德轉到德里，因為塞吉歐也召開了記者會，宣佈印度當然是美國非常非常重要的夥伴。

So at least for the media, it was a bit of a competition.

所以至少對媒體來說，有點像在競爭。

And if I had to break it down, I would say especially towards the end of the day, perhaps SEDGW was slightly ahead of the Chancellor.

如果我必須分析一下，我會說尤其到了當天下午，可能塞吉歐的報導比總理多一些。

Let's quickly on the personalities of these two leaders.

我們快速來聊聊這兩位領導人的個性。

So Modi and Mehrz, from where you stand, how much potential do you see for these two personalities to click?

所以莫迪和梅爾茲，以你的角度來看，你覺得這兩個人有多少潛力能夠合得來？

我的意思是，我認為潛力很大。

Narendra Modi, let's just put it this way.

納倫德拉·莫迪，這麼說好了。

I think he's been looking for a win because he's been really facing a personal rubbing from his close friend Donald Trump.

我認為他一直在尋求一個勝利，因為他真的受到了他好友唐納·川普的個人抨擊。

What happened to those events that happened in Gujarat?

那些在古吉拉特邦發生的事怎麼了？

And India in general, not just Narendra Modi, is also looking to the west, particularly Europe, given what's happening in the world.

而印度整體，不只是納倫德拉·莫迪，也正放眼西方，特別是歐洲，考量到世界正在發生的事。

And to be to have some sort of a personal chemistry with the leader of the biggest economy in Europe is something that works as a win for Narendra Modi at a personal level and also for India in general.

而且能與歐洲最大經濟體的領導人建立某種個人情誼，對納倫德拉·莫迪個人層面，以及對印度整體來說，都是一場勝利。

And we can talk about that and expand it to the rest of Europe, but

我們可以談談這件事，並將其擴展到歐洲其他國家，但是

Because in the latter half of last year, you've had this personal chemistry with Donald Trump virtually crumble.

因為在去年下半年，你和唐納·川普的個人情誼幾乎瓦解了。

You've had Narendra Modi photographed between Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin, personal ties with Vladimir Putin.

你看見納倫德拉·莫迪被拍到站在習近平和普丁之間，與普丁有個人交情。

And that hasn't really gone down fantastically in the west, which India is trying to court.

這在西方國家並沒有受到太好的評價，而印度正試圖爭取這些國家。