and life you love. And today I have a question for you. Do you ever wish that you were more

和你熱愛的生活。今天我有一個問題要問你你是否曾經希望你更

persuasive? Whether you wanna win over a customer service rep or maybe a new client or event

有說服力嗎？無論你是想贏得客戶服務代表，還是想贏得一個新的客戶或活動。

a significant other, being able to influence another person, of course in an honest, ethical

一個重要的人，能夠影響另一個人，當然是在一個誠實的，道德的。

way, is a key to success and my guest today is gonna show us how.

方式，是成功的關鍵，我的客人今天會告訴我們如何。

Bob Burg is a best selling author and speaker on topics vital to the success of today’s

鮑勃-伯格是一位最暢銷的作家和演講者，他的演講主題對當今社會的成功至關重要。

businessperson. Burg is a co-author of “The Go-Giver,” “Go-Givers Sell More,” “It’s

商務人士。伯格是《贈人玫瑰手有餘香》、《贈人玫瑰手更有賣相》、《這是

Not About You,” and “Endless Referrals.” Together his books have sold more than a million

與你無關》、《無盡的推薦》等。他的書一共賣出了超過一百萬本

copies. Bob believes his new book, “Adversaries into Allies: Win People Over Without Manipulation

份。鮑勃相信他的新書《化對手為盟友。贏得人們的青睞而不被操縱

or Coercion,” is by far his most important work yet.

或脅迫》是他迄今為止最重要的作品。

Bob, thank you so much for being here on MarieTV. This is awesome.

鮑勃，非常感謝你能來瑪麗電視。這是真棒。

Marie, I am honored. Thanks for having me.

瑪麗，我很榮幸。謝謝你邀請我。

So I have to say, you wrote one of my favorite books ever, “The Go-Giver.” And I just

所以我不得不說，你寫了一本我最喜歡的書，"贈人玫瑰手有餘香"。我只是

really wanted to thank you for that because it made a huge difference in my personal life

真的要感謝你，因為它使我的個人生活發生了巨大的變化。

and it so resonates with everything that I try and do for myself and everything that

它是如此的共鳴，我試圖為自己做的一切，以及一切

we try and teach on MarieTV, which is to focus on giving rather than getting. So that was

我們在MarieTV上嘗試和教導的，是專注於給予而不是得到。所以這就是

just a little public acknowledgement and if you don't have this book, “The Go-Giver,”

只是一點點的公開承認，如果你沒有'這本書，"Go-Giver，"

you have to get yourself it now. But today we’re gonna focus on your other amazing

你必須讓自己現在。但今天我們要關注的是你的另一個驚人的。

book, and I know you have more than 2, but today we’re going to focus on “Adversaries

書，我知道你有兩個以上的書，但今天我們要關注 "對手"。

into Allies.” This is awesome. “How to Win People Over Without Manipulation or Coercion.”

成盟友。"這是真棒。"如何在沒有操縱或脅迫的情況下贏得人們的信任。"

Thank you.

謝謝你了

Now, one of the things that struck me was that you make a real distinction between persuasion

現在，讓我印象深刻的一件事是，你把勸說和說服之間做了一個真正的區分

and manipulation. Can you tell us what that is?

和操縱。你能告訴我們那是什麼嗎？

Yeah. And, you know, I made that point early because it’s a question that’s very natural.

是啊，你知道，我很早就提出了這一點，因為這是個很自然的問題。而且，你知道，我很早就提出了這一點，因為這是一個很自然的問題。

When you think of influence, which is really in a sense what the book is about, influence

當你想到影響力的時候，其實從某種意義上來說，這就是本書的主題，影響

can be defined as simply the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action usually

可以簡單地定義為推動一個人或幾個人採取所需行動的能力，通常是指

within the context of a specific goal. You can do that one of two ways. You could do

在特定目標的背景下。你可以通過兩種方式之一來實現。你可以這樣做

it through manipulating another person or you can do it through persuading another person.

你可以通過操縱他人來實現，也可以通過說服他人來實現。

And really manipulation and persuasion are cousins. Now, one’s the evil cousin. Manipulation’s

而真正的操縱和說服是表兄弟。現在，一個是邪惡的表弟。Manipulation's

the evil cousin.

邪惡的表哥。

The dark cousin.

黑暗中的表哥。

Right. The dark cousin. And persuasion’s the good one. But, let’s face it, both the

對了，黑暗的表哥。黑暗的表弟。而勸說是好的。但是，讓我們面對它，這兩個。

manipulator and the persuader, they both understand human interaction. They both understand human

操縱者和說服者，他們都懂得人際交往。他們都瞭解人類

motivation. They understand what makes people tick and what makes people move to action.

動機。他們瞭解是什麼讓人們心動，是什麼讓人們行動起來。

So… but there’s still a big difference and that’s the key. And obviously we don't

所以......但還是有很大的區別，這才是關鍵。顯然，我們不&#39；

encourage people to manipulate, but rather to persuade. One of the best examples or explanations

鼓勵人們去操縱，而是去說服。最好的例子或解釋之一是

of the two, the difference in the two, is from a gentleman by the name of Dr. Paul W.

的，兩者的區別，是來自一位名叫保羅-W-博士的先生。

Swets. He wrote a book back in 1986 entitled, “The Art of Talking So that People Will

Swets。他早在1986年就寫了一本書，名為《說話的藝術，讓人們會。

Listen,” though it was much more about listening than it was about talking. And I thought his

聽。"雖然這比起說話，更多的是聽。而我覺得他的

explanation was great. According to Dr. Swets, manipulation aims at control, not cooperation.

解釋得很好。根據Swets博士的說法，操縱的目的是控制，而不是合作。

It does not consider the good of the other party, it results in a win-lose situation.

它不考慮對方的利益，它的結果是輸贏。

In direct contrast to the manipulator, the persuader always seeks to enhance the self

與操縱者直接相反的是，說服者總是試圖提升自我

esteem of the other party. The result is that people respond better because they’re treated

對方的尊重。其結果是，人們的反應更好，因為他們受到了

as responsible or response-able, self directing individuals. So it begins with intent but

作為負責任的或可迴應的、自我指導的個人。是以，它始於意圖，但

that’s not where it ends. See, both the manipulator and the persuader can elicit immediate

這不是結束的地方。你看，操縱者和勸說者都能立即引出

action, but that’s where it ends because once you know you’ve been manipulated, Marie,

行動，但也就到此為止了，因為一旦你知道自己被操縱了，瑪麗。

you will avoid that person. You’ll do the best you can to resist that person. Even if

你會避免那個人。你會盡你最大的努力去抵抗那個人。即使

you have to work with that person, you’ll do something to not have to be involved in

你必須與他合作，你會做一些事情，以避免捲入

some way. With a persuader though, that’s different. See, a persuader… see, a manipulator

某種方式。但對於一個說服者來說，那就不同了。你看，一個勸說者... ... 你看，一個操縱者。

is win at all costs. They may not want to hurt the other person, but if they have to

是不惜一切代價的贏。他們可能不想傷害對方，但如果他們不得不這樣做

in order to get their way they will. They’re very I focused or me focused. Not the case

為了得到他們的方式，他們將。他們很我專注或我專注。不是這樣的

with the persuader. For them to win the other person also has to win. So when you’ve been

與勸說者。要想讓他們贏，對方也要贏。所以當你已經

persuaded you feel good about that person and you’re more likely to buy into their

說服你對這個人的好感，你更容易相信他們的

ideas again.

思想再。

Yeah and I love that distinction also that it taps into feelings. It’s like how do

是啊，我也喜歡這種區別，它能讓人感受到。這就像怎麼做

you feel when you’re persuaded? Is it a win-win for both of you?

你覺得當你被說服？是否是雙贏？

Exactly.

就是這樣

And I thought that was… it’s really important because, you know, one of the things that

我想這是... 這真的很重要，因為，你知道，其中一件事是... ...

we’ve discovered and what we do here on MarieTV and in our program B-School, so many

我們發現，我們在MarieTV和我們的B-School節目中所做的事情，那麼多的

people associate sales and marketing or getting your product or your idea out into the world

人們把銷售和市場或把你的產品或你的想法推向世界聯繫起來。

with somehow being pushy or somehow being manipulative.

與莫名其妙地被催促或莫名其妙地被操縱。

Just the opposite.

恰恰相反。

Exactly. And it’s just the opposite. And that’s why I was so excited to talk with

正是如此。而這恰恰相反。這就是為什麼我很高興能和你談談

you today because I think this reframing of how to add value in other people’s lives

因為我認為這種重新定義如何在別人的生活中增加價值的方式。

and whenever if we bump up against conflict, which we’re gonna talk about in a few minutes,

如果我們遇到了衝突，我們會在幾分鐘內討論。

how do you deal with that in a way that’s empathetic and compassionate and that leaves

你如何處理的方式 這是一個同情和同情，並離開

both people not only feeling great but it’s actually a true win win for both of them.

兩個人不僅感覺很好，而且實際上是真正的雙贏。

It is. And, Marie, so many people when they go into business and they do something they

是的而且，瑪麗，很多人在做生意的時候，他們做了一些事情，他們

love, they have a product or service they feel so good about and they know they can

愛，他們有一個產品或服務，他們覺得很好，他們知道他們可以。

add value to people’s lives. But they say, “Oh, but I don't wanna sell.” Why? Because

增加價值的人的生活。但他們說，"哦，但我不想賣。"為什麼呢？為什麼？

it’s how they’re defining selling. See, if you look at selling as something you do

這是他們如何定義銷售。你看，如果你把銷售看成是你做的事

to someone, if you define selling as trying to convince somebody to buy something they

如果你把銷售定義為試圖說服別人購買他們的東西，那麼你就可以把它定義為 "銷售"。

don't want or need, who wants to do that? We couldn’t feel good about something like

不要'，也不需要，誰願意這樣做呢？我們不能對這樣的事情有好感

that. Really all selling is at its very… at its basic is simply finding out what somebody

那。真的，所有的銷售都是在其非常... 在其基本的是簡單地發現了什麼人

does want or need and helping them to get it.

並幫助他們得到它。

Yeah.

是啊。

That’s what it is. And when you look at it that way you can feel great about it because

就是這樣的。當你這樣看的時候，你會感覺很好，因為...

you know you’re providing a service to that person.

你知道你在為那個人提供服務。

Absolutely. So let’s shift into the five principles that are really the core of the

絕對是這樣的。所以，讓我們轉入五個原則，這才是真正的核心。

book. So let’s start off with principle number one, which is all about being able

書。所以我們先從第一條原則說起，就是要能做到

to be the master of our own emotions.

做我們自己情緒的主人。

Exactly.

就是這樣

Yeah.

是啊。

It’s control your own emotions. The sages of long ago asked who was a mighty person

是控制自己的情緒。昔日聖賢問誰是強者？

and they answered, “That person who can control their own emotions and make of an

他們回答說："那個人能夠控制自己的情緒，並使的。

enemy or a potential enemy a friend.” It all begins with that because, see, until you

敵人或潛在的敵人為朋友。"這一切都從這一點開始，因為，你看，直到你

can… it’s only when you can control your own emotions that you’re able to take a

可以......只有當你能控制自己的情緒時，你才能夠採取一個

potentially negative situation or person and turn it into a win for everyone involved.

潛在的負面情況或個人，並將其轉化為每個人都參與的贏家。

But why is that so difficult? Well, because we’re human beings.

但為什麼這麼難呢？嗯，因為我們是人類。

Yeah.

是啊。

And as human beings we’re emotional creatures. I would like to think we’re logical, and

而作為人類，我們是情緒化的動物。我想認為我們是有邏輯的，而且...

to a certain extent we are, but really we are emotion driven. We make major decisions

在某種程度上，我們是，但實際上我們是情感驅動。我們做出重大決定

based on emotion and we back up those emotional decisions with logic. We rationalize. And

基於情感，我們用邏輯來支持這些情感的決定。我們合理化。而

if you take that word it means we tell ourselves rational lies and we do that in order to justify

如果你用這個詞，它的意思是我們告訴自己理性的謊言 我們這樣做是為了證明自己是合理的。

that emotional decision. Well, there’s also… emotion also comes into play when you just

情感的決定。 - 嗯，還有...好了，還有... 情感也進入發揮作用的時候，你只是... ...

feel lousy about something. Now, we know nobody can make us feel bad or angry or sad or mad,

感覺糟糕的東西。現在，我們知道沒有人可以讓我們感覺到不好或憤怒或悲傷或瘋狂。

but what they can do is they can either intentionally or usually unintentionally do things that

但他們能做的是，他們可以有意或通常無意地做一些事情。

push our buttons and cause ourselves to become mad or angry or sad or what have you. And

按下我們的按鈕，使我們自己變得瘋狂或憤怒或悲傷或什麼的。而

when we allow ourself to be controlled by that we can’t be part of the solution by

當我們允許自己被控制時，我們就不能成為解決方案的一部分，通過

the very nature of the thing. We become part of the problem and things don't work out.

事情的本質。我們成了問題的一部分，事情就不會有結果。

This is not to say that we should forego our emotions. Emotions are a great part of life.

這並不是說我們應該放棄我們的情感。情緒是生活的重要組成部分。

They make life joyous and worthwhile. But as one of my great mentors, Dandi Schumachi,

他們讓生活變得快樂而有價值。但作為我的一位偉大導師，丹迪-舒馬奇。

says, “By all means, take your emotions along for the ride but make sure you are driving

說："無論如何，帶著你的情緒去旅行，但要確保你是在開

the car.”

汽車。"

I loved that when I read it in the book. It was so great. And I think it’s so important

我在書中讀到這句話時，很喜歡。它是如此的偉大。我認為這是非常重要的

to remember because in those situations where our buttons do get pressed it’s very easy,

因為在這些情況下，我們的按鈕確實被按下了，這很容易。

especially in this world where we can text in a moment, we can reply on social media,

尤其是在這個可以瞬間發短信的世界，我們可以在社交媒體上回復。

you can reply in email, and those things can’t be taken back. I mean, words can’t be taken

你可以在電子郵件中回覆，而這些東西是不能收回的。我的意思是，話不能被採取

back. But I think it’s vital for this idea of turning adversaries or any kind of conflict,

回。但我認為這對這種將對手或任何一種衝突的想法至關重要。

someone that we have conflict with, into an ally, of being able to chill out for a minute

與我們有衝突的人，變成盟友，能夠冷靜下來一分鐘的人

and not be driven by your emotions. So one of… an action strategy would be to just…

而不是由你的情緒驅動。所以其中一個... 行動策略就是...

Well, if you know that you’re susceptible to this then what you wanna do is rehearse.

好吧，如果你知道你很容易受到影響... ...那麼你要做的就是排練。

You know, imagine situations that you know that have happened in the past that could

你知道，想象一下，你知道的情況下，已經發生在過去的情況下，可

happen again where your buttons could be pressed and see both results. I mean, see what it

再發生在你的按鈕可以按下，看到兩個結果。我的意思是，看看它

would be like if you did what you usually do and that that’s probably not the result

如果你做了你通常做的事情會是什麼樣子的，那可能不是結果

you want and then imagine yourself just, as Zig Ziglar used to say, responding instead

然後想象你自己，就像Zig Ziglar說的那樣，迴應你的要求

of reacting. Really being in control of yourself, being calm, listening to that person first,

的反應。真正做到控制自己，冷靜，先聽那個人的。

taking a moment to decide what to do and seeing it turn out beautifully. And it’s sort of

花點時間來決定做什麼，然後看到它變成漂亮的。而這是一種

like a, and I use this analogy in the book, like an astronaut who’s going up into space.

就像一個，我在書中用這個比喻，就像一個太空人要上太空一樣。

Before they do he or she is going to do a lot of simulations, maybe hundreds of them,

在這之前，他（她）要做大量的模擬，可能要做上百次。

so by the time they get up into space and something happens they’ve already been there

所以當他們進入太空，發生一些事情的時候，他們已經在那裡了。

and done that. And while it’s a little bit different certainly than actually doing it,

並做到了這一點。雖然這和實際做起來肯定有一點不同。

it’s not that much different. We know the mind can’t tell the… the subconscious

這並沒有太大的區別。我們知道頭腦不能告訴... 潛意識。

can’t tell the difference between what’s actually happened and what’s been suggested

虛虛實實，莫衷一是

to it. So if you see yourself doing it, if you’re rehearsing this, if you’re picturing

到它。所以如果你看到自己在做這件事 如果你在排練這件事 如果你在想象... ...

those wonderful results in your mind’s eye, then when the situation comes up you’re

那些美好的結果在你的腦海裡，那麼當情況出現的時候，你就會被

much more likely to do it. And when you do and you handle it beautifully, take pleasure

更有可能做到這一點。當你做了，而且你處理得很好的時候，你就會很高興。

in that. Congratulate yourself. Know that if you’ve done it once you can do it every

在那。恭喜你自己。要知道，如果你已經做了一次，你可以做到這一點，每一個。

time. But there’s one more thing though, and that’s to understand you probably won’t

的時間。不過還有一點，那就是要明白你可能不會。

do it right every time. At least I know I don't.

每次都做對。至少我知道我沒有'。

Oh, I don't either.

哦，我也不'。

Yet in those times when we don't because we’re human and it’s gonna happen, we can feel

然而在那些我們不'的時候，因為我們是人，它會發生，我們會覺得

a little bad about it, but not too bad. Don't go into… don't go into a guilt trip about

有一點不好，但不是太壞。不要去... 不要去進入一個內疚之旅，關於

it. Understand that you’re human and you’ll have many chances to practice.

它。明白自己是人，你會有很多機會去練習。

Yeah. I love that. I love the rehearsing bit. I know one thing that always works for me,

是的，我喜歡這樣我喜歡排練的位。我知道一件事，總是為我工作。

we’ve talked a lot about it on the show, is like taking a time out. Like, if you feel

我們已經談了很多關於它的節目， 就像採取時間了。就像，如果你覺得

yourself emotionally charged by something that’s come in and you don't have to respond

你自己的情緒衝動的東西的進來，你不'迴應。

right away…

馬上...

Right.

好吧，我知道了

...to give yourself a little bit of a cooling off period so you can clear out and then,

...給自己一點冷卻期，這樣你就可以清理出來，然後。

you know, think…

你知道，想...

Very important.

非常重要。

Yeah. A little more empathetically. So let’s move on. What’s principle number two?

是啊，更有同理心一點。更加感同身受一些。所以，讓我們繼續前進。什麼是原則二？

That is to understand the clash of belief systems, and this is so very key. What is

那就是要理解信仰體系的衝突，這個是非常關鍵的。什麼是

a belief? Well, a belief really is a subjective truth. It’s the truth as we understand the

一個信念？嗯，信仰其實就是一種主觀的真理。它是我們理解的真理

truth to be, which doesn't mean it’s the truth. That means it’s our truth.

真理是，這並不意味著它是真理。這意味著它是我們的真理。

Our truth.

我們的真相。

Right. Now, our truth might be the truth, but it’s not necessarily and it’s probably

是的，我們的真相可能是真相，但不一定是，也可能是。現在，我們的真理可能是真理， 但它不一定，它可能是

so far less than what we think.

遠遠不如我們想象的那樣。

Right.

好吧，我知道了

Well, you know, we have our truths, our truths are a result of our belief systems. I call

嗯，你知道，我們有我們的真理，我們的真理是我們的信仰系統的結果。我稱之為

it an operating system. And it’s an unconscious operating system. We’re not even aware of

它是一個作業系統。而這是一個無意識的作業系統。我們甚至沒有意識到

it. Our beliefs are a combination of upbringing, environments, schooling, news media, television

它。我們的信仰是教養、環境、學校教育、新聞媒體、電視的綜合體。

shows, movies, popular culture, cultural mores, every… all the associations we have. And

顯示，電影，流行文化， 文化習俗，每一個... ... 所有的協會，我們有。而且...

it’s pretty much… the interesting thing about it, it’s pretty much set in place

它是相當多的... 有趣的是，它是相當多的地方設置

by the time we’re little more than toddlers. And at that point everything new that comes

到了我們還只是一個蹣跚學步的孩子的時候。而在這時，一切新的東西

into that belief system tends to build on that foundation or that premise. So people

成的信仰體系往往建立在這個基礎或前提上。所以人們

grow up with a particular belief system not even realizing it. Thinking, saying, doing

在特定的信仰體系下成長，卻不自知。想、說、做

things based on those beliefs and they live their entire life doing that. Well, we have

基於這些信仰的事情，他們的一生都在做。那麼，我們有

to also understand that this other person with whom we’re about to have a potentially

同時也要明白，這另一個人，我們將與之有一個潛在的。

difficult personal… interpersonal transaction, they’re a victim of their, and when I say

困難的個人... ... 人際交往，他們是一個受害者 他們的，當我說：

victim I don't mean victim mentality, I mean…

受害者 我不是說受害者心態，我是說... ...

No, of course.

不，當然。

...it’s… it’s just unconscious and it’s just how most of us are. That they also live

...這是... ...這只是無意識的，這只是我們大多數人是如何。他們也生活在...

according to their belief systems and they’re unconscious about it and that’s where a

根據他們的信仰系統，他們是無意識的，這也是一個地方

clash can really occur. And as human beings we tend to think that everybody else sees

會真正發生衝突。而作為人類的我們，往往會認為別人看到的都是

the world as we see the world. How could it be anything else? That’s how we see the

我們所看到的世界。怎麼可能是別的什麼呢？這就是我們看到的

world, which is why you hear people say things like, “Oh, everybody feels that way.”

世界，這就是為什麼你聽到人們說的東西，如， "哦，每個人都覺得這樣。"

Or, “Oh, nobody likes that.” Or if you’ve ever said, I know I have certainly, “Oh,

或者，"哦，沒有人喜歡這樣。"或者，如果你曾經說過， 我知道我肯定，"哦，"。

I would never say that to someone.” Right?

我不會對別人說的。"對吧？

Of course.

當然了

Because that’s our belief. No we wouldn’t, but they would. They come from a different

因為那是我們的信念。不，我們不會，但他們會。他們來自不同的

belief system. So what we need to do, Marie, is not necessarily understand that person’s

信仰體系。所以我們要做的 Marie 不是一定要理解那個人的...

belief system. They probably don't understand their own belief system. What we need to do

信仰體系。他們可能不瞭解自己的信仰體系。我們要做的是

is simply understand that the two of us, that we see the world from two different models