Name: 美國大學能否挺過特朗普？| 灰色地帶 (Will American colleges survive Trump? | The Gray Area)
Uploaded: 2025-07-21T17:20:12.000Z
Duration: 52 min 27 s

Hey, I'm Sean host of the gray area for the show this week.

嘿，我是本週節目灰色地帶的主持人肖恩。

情態副詞

I talked to Michael Roth He's the president of Wesleyan University and the author of a bunch of great books about College we talked about the state of the American University why it's under attack And what he thinks college is actually for in this age.

我和邁克爾-羅斯聊了聊，他是衛斯理大學的校長，也是很多關於大學的好書的作者，我們談到了美國大學的現狀，為什麼它受到了攻擊，以及他認為大學在這個時代的真正意義。

I hope you enjoy it Michael Roth welcome to the show glad to be here I have heard you say that being a university president is the best job in the world.

希望大家喜歡 邁克爾-羅斯 歡迎來到節目 很高興來到這裡 我聽你說過，當大學校長是世界上最好的工作。

I Got to say man From where I sit it sure doesn't look like the best job in the world right now.

我得說，夥計，從我的角度看，現在這肯定不是世界上最好的工作。

Is this still your official Position it is my position both officially and unofficially People presidents do a lot of whining about how hard it is but we're very well paid as most people know because it's public and I get to be around lots of interesting young people Scholars researchers teachers So, of course there are Challenges, especially now the federal government has stepped into the breach to provide Extraordinary challenges, but despite all the protests of how hard it is a woe is me that you hear from from presidents I I think it's a it's a very cool job I mean, I'm working now talking to you as part of my job, you know, I go to a football game.

這仍然是你的正式職位嗎？ 這是我的正式和非正式職位，人們常抱怨總統的工作有多辛苦，但我們的薪水很高，大多數人都知道，因為這是公開的，我可以接觸到很多有趣的年輕人，學者、研究人員、教師，所以，當然會有挑戰、尤其是現在聯邦政府的介入，為我們提供了非同一般的挑戰，但儘管總統們都在抱怨工作有多難，說我有多悲慘，但我認為這是一份非常酷的工作，我的意思是，我現在的工作就是和你們哈拉，這是我工作的一部分，你們知道，我去看足球比賽。

I'm working Lucky you you get to talk to me.

我在工作，幸運的是你能和我說話。

Yeah higher ed as you know is In a pretty tough place at the moment for a variety of reasons that we will get into You have been out there as much as any university president maybe more than any other defending universities you were Just at a conference in fact and you said very bluntly That the federal government and I'm quoting the federal government is trying to destroy civil society By undermining the legitimacy of colleges and universities.

是的，你也知道，由於種種原因，高等教育目前的處境相當艱難，我們將對此進行深入探討。你和其他大學校長一樣，也許比其他任何大學校長都更願意為大學辯護，事實上，你剛剛在一次會議上直言不諱地說，聯邦政府--我引用聯邦政府的話--正試圖通過破壞高校的合法性來摧毀公民社會。

What do you mean that help people understand?

Well, I guess I should start with what what did I mean by civil society and I I see and I'm not alone in this the march of authoritarianism Often characterized by the effort to erase what philosophers or political theorists have called intermediary institutions Be they churches or corporations?

好吧，我想我應該從我所說的公民社會是什麼意思開始說起，我看到，我並不是一個人在這樣說，專制主義的前進往往以努力消除哲學家或政治理論家所說的中介機構（無論是教會還是公司）為特徵。

Schools universities entertainment we would say these days Parts of the society that have Legitimacy independent of the government's ideology or power and When you have an authoritarian or would-be authoritarian one of the things they often do maybe always do is Try to either erase those independent sources of legitimacy or as the Nazis say coordinate them, you know, glag shaltum Somehow coordinate all of them in the direction that the leader wants to go in and so I think it's it's extraordinarily clear that the Trump administration is hell-bent on destroying civil society Understood as that arena of our culture and our polity that has sources of legitimacy independent of the ideology of the person in the White House and You see that in the the attack on law firms You see it in the attack on the press I mean, it's it what enormous success of this has been that we got used to that kind of stuff and The war on universities is similar to that, you know, they're not really going after universities that have egregious issues of civil rights violations They're going after the high profile high legitimacy Institutions like Harvard like UVA like the other Ivy League schools with the exception of Dartmouth and and they're doing that because these schools have They have a claim on our allegiance or respect that is not founded in the ideology of Those currently in the White House when you say destroying what do you actually mean?

當你有一個獨裁者或可能成為獨裁者的人時，他們經常做的事情之一就是試圖抹殺這些獨立的合法性來源，或者像納粹所說的那樣協調他們，你知道的、是以，我認為特朗普政府一心想要摧毀公民社會，這一點非常明顯，公民社會被理解為我們文化和政體的一個領域，其合法性來源獨立於白宮中人的意識形態、我們已經習慣了這種做法 對大學的戰爭也是如此他們的目標並不是那些有嚴重侵犯民權問題的大學 他們的目標是那些知名度高的合法機構 比如哈佛大學 比如弗吉尼亞大學 比如其他常春藤盟校 除了達特茅斯學院

I mean, what is the administration actually doing to?

我的意思是，政府究竟在做什麼？

stifle or Censor or otherwise disrupt the mission and the independence of Universities across the country.

扼殺或審查或以其他方式破壞全國各大學的使命和獨立性。

Well, they they start with easy thing, right like Trans women athletes.

他們會從簡單的事情做起，就像跨性別女運動員一樣。

I think there are 12 in the country in bars NCA varsity sports And that that's that's it.

我認為全國有 12 所學校參加了國家大學生體育協會的校隊比賽。

That's a winning issue for a variety of reasons And so they the White House the White House is going to determine who plays Volleyball Okay, and then they're going to determine how to teach Mideast or Near Eastern Studies Okay They're going to say if you don't teach Near Eastern Studies the way we want you to with appropriate respect for Israel.

是以，白宮將決定由誰來打排球 好吧，然後他們將決定如何教授中東或近東研究 好吧，他們會說，如果你不按照我們希望的方式教授近東研究，並適當尊重以色列，你就會被開除。

Let's say Then you're not going to get money for Alzheimer's research Now again, okay, it's not Harvard But what happens is that everybody in Higher education Starts hedging their bets that is they start moving away from anything that might offend Those in the White House and those beholden to people in the White House And so you have this slide from the university as fostering an oppositional culture Which it has in the United States for a long time at least since the Second World War Towards the universities as Institutions in which people with money power Diplomas and legitimacy that they start trying to anticipate what they should say to not annoy or even to please the President and his friends and that to me is destroying higher education just like it would be destroying journalism If the administration was able to punish Broadcast journalists for editing interviews Make it just impossible to edit an interview without pissing off the president That then you're going to destroy journalism not Ted not in one fell swoop But the news this morning at Paramount has decided to what's in 16 million dollars to settle What everyone knows is a bug everyone knows is a bogus case.

比方說，你就拿不到研究老年痴呆症的錢了 好吧，這又不是哈佛的事但高等教育界的每個人都開始避重就輕 他們開始遠離任何可能冒犯白宮和白宮的人的東西 於是你就看到了這樣的滑坡 從大學培養了一種反對文化 這在美國已經有很長一段時間了 至少從第二次世界大戰開始對我來說，這就是在摧毀高等教育 就像摧毀新聞業一樣 如果政府能夠懲罰廣播記者編輯採訪 讓他們無法在不惹惱總統的情況下編輯採訪 那你就會摧毀新聞業 而不是泰德，不是一舉兩得

It'll mean the journalists just move closer to those in power and that to me will Destroy the independence of this sector and I think that's the point I don't think President Trump really cares what kind of Alzheimer's research is being done at Harvard But he wants to make sure that People at Harvard and then everyone who doesn't have the resources that Harvard has to fight Everyone else lines up and I think that's why you don't see a lot of opposition from colleges universities right now Because everyone has already started lining up Well, you mentioned UVA and I wanted to ask about that because it's it's in the news and for people who don't know the president of UVA Recently resigned or shouldn't say resigned he was Forced out by the Justice Department as a condition to I guess settle the civil rights investigation into the school's diversity or DEI program However, however, you want to put it.

這將意味著記者們更接近當權者，而這對我來說將破壞這個部門的獨立性，我認為這就是問題所在，我不認為特朗普總統真的關心哈佛大學正在進行什麼樣的阿爾茨海默氏症研究，但他想確保哈佛大學的人，然後每個沒有哈佛大學資源的人都能與其他人抗爭，我認為這就是為什麼你現在看不到很多來自大學的反對意見，因為每個人都已經開始排隊了、你提到了弗吉尼亞大學，我想問一下它，因為它上了新聞，對於不知道的人來說，弗吉尼亞大學的校長最近辭職了，或者不應該說是辭職，他是被司法部逼走的，我想這是解決民權調查的一個條件，調查是針對學校的多元化或D

I assume you you are in a you're the leader of a university president signal group chat What are your colleagues saying about this How would you characterize what went down there and do you see it as Pretending what might be coming else I do.

我猜你是大學校長信號組的組長，你的同事對此事有什麼看法？你如何看待這件事？

我的意思是，我認為這才是重點。

I mean it wasn't it Christine Ohm Who said something like?

克莉絲汀-歐姆是不是說過這樣的話？

Colleges should be where pay attention Do you know we can do this to you, too?

你知道我們也可以這樣對你嗎？

And so what happened it at UVA for what I know is only what's in the press Actually, I know Jim Ryan a little bit he was he was dedicated to diversity equity inclusion, by the way the mission statement of the University of Virginia Calls says it's the university is defined by a diverse community.

在弗吉尼亞大學發生的事情，我所知道的只是媒體上的報道，實際上，我對吉姆-瑞安略有了解，他致力於多元化、公平和包容，順便說一句，弗吉尼亞大學的使命宣言稱，大學是由一個多元化的社區所定義的。

That's actually in their own mission statement and and President Ryan had gotten the governing board to approve Significant expenditures to try to create a more a more diverse community at UVA and that of course is currently running a would run afoul of The president's interpretation of civil rights statutes Keyword there is interpretation Yeah And I my view is that actually the the guys who win the election and have the right to do that You know when Obama and Biden were in power they interpreted the civil rights statutes to say that if you're accused of Sexual assault you don't get to cross-examine the person accusing you And that was an extraordinary step And and they and they threatened schools with severe punishments if they didn't implement those policies in that time But they actually never Punished any school as far as I know.

我的觀點是，贏得選舉的人有權這麼做，奧巴馬和拜登當政時，他們對民權法規的解釋是，如果你被指控性侵犯，你不能盤問指控你的人。他們威脅學校說，如果不在那個時候執行這些政策，就會受到嚴厲的懲罰 但是據我所知，他們從來沒有懲罰過任何一所學校

I mean they just they negotiated with them to change the way they handle sexual assault on Campuses, but I do think the Trump administration Has the right to say that anything that smacks of reverse discrimination is a violation of the civil rights statutes and I don't think this is a wise policy myself, but They won the election and we have Wesleyan changed the way we approach this We had a policy where we said we had target of opportunity hires We had an all-white department and you knew of a really great scholar Who was going to add racial or ethnic diversity to your department?

我的意思是，他們只是與他們進行了談判，以改變他們處理校園性侵犯的方式，但我確實認為特朗普政府有權說，任何有反向歧視嫌疑的行為都違反了民權法規，而且我本人也不認為這是一項明智的政策，但他們贏得了選舉，我們衛斯理學院改變了我們處理此事的方式，我們曾有一項政策，我們說我們有機會僱用目標，我們有一個全白人的部門，你知道有一位非常出色的學者，誰會為你的部門增加種族或民族多樣性？

Or military veteran who was going to be could join the physics department where you and you didn't have many veterans Let's say in that section of the sciences Or any veterans, let's then we would say let's try to hire that person even if it wasn't Their turn so to speak we can't do that anymore and I accept that I mean, I don't again I don't like it, but I don't you don't always get what you want in democracy So that seems to me fine.

或者說，退伍軍人可以加入物理系，而物理系的退伍軍人並不多，比方說，在科學的那個部門，或者說任何退伍軍人，那麼我們就會說，讓我們試著僱用那個人，即使輪不到他們，可以這麼說，我們不能再這麼做了，我接受這個事實，我的意思是，我不喜歡這樣，但我不喜歡你總是在民主中得到你想要的東西，所以在我看來這很好。

But what they did at UVA is To say that the university wasn't moving quickly enough To change its policies to be in accord with this new interpretation of civil rights statutes and They had done many changes as far as I could tell But I it seemed to me and I this is my interpretation I have no inside knowledge of this that they wanted a trophy.

但他們在弗吉尼亞大學的所作所為，是說學校沒有足夠迅速地改變政策，以符合對民權法規的新解釋，據我所知，他們已經做了很多改變，但在我看來，這是我的解釋，我沒有這方面的內幕消息，他們想要一個獎盃。

They wanted Jim Ryan's Resignation as a trophy because that's a warning to other people You put what Ryan's head on a stick and you put it out there and then other presidents say I Don't want to run afoul of this administration and when you say the government has a You think the government has a right to encroach in this way?

他們想把吉姆-瑞安的辭職作為戰利品 因為這是對其他人的警告 你把瑞安的頭放在棍子上，然後把它放在那裡 然後其他總統就會說 我不想和這個政府作對

well, I think that their understanding of it is Is it's a reason it's a an interpretation that I find mistaken But it's not incoherent, I mean, I don't I in other words The I think the decision about affirmative action and missions was was wrong I I don't like it, but it's it's there's an argument for it that states very clearly that Discrimination in the current environment Is wrong, even if it is meant to correct historic or historic discrimination or patterns of sociological discrimination systemic We like to say discrimination They say no what matters is individual fairness.

我認為他們對它的理解是有道理的 是一種我認為錯誤的解釋 但它並不是不連貫的 我是說 我不喜歡換句話說 我認為關於平權行動和任務的決定是錯誤的 我不喜歡它我不喜歡它，但它有一個論點 非常清楚地指出 在當前環境下的歧視是錯誤的 即使它是為了糾正歷史上的歧視 或社會學上的歧視模式

I think that's wrong, but I think that's coherent position that individual fairness trumps everything and That you can't substitute history and sociology for Individual judgment Again, I can't have an argument about why that's wrong in my view and when they would say why it's right in their view I my view is that they brought they won the election.

我認為這是錯誤的，但我認為這是一致的立場，即個人公平高於一切，你不能用歷史和社會學代替個人判斷。

They get to enforce the rules that in a coherent way that and stay within the law what we're seeing instead is the use of civil rights legislation to ensure the obedience of Institutions Here, you know because the the new VA was about DEI at Harvard now, it's about protecting Jews Which is I think just a sham a lie But they're using that as a cover to ensure that the institutions conform To the wishes of those in power and that is different Can I ask my car are you feeling any of this at Wesleyan right now?

我們所看到的是利用民權立法來確保機構的服從 這裡，你知道，因為新的退伍軍人事務部是關於哈佛大學的DEI的，現在，它是關於保護猶太人的，我認為這只是一個騙局，一個謊言，但他們用它作為掩護，以確保機構符合當權者的願望，這是不同的，我可以問我的車，你覺得任何這在衛斯理安現在？

What are you dealing with there on the ground?

What are you hearing from students parents?

您從學生家長那裡聽到了什麼？

Professors has this touched your university.

教授們，這是否觸動了你們的大學？

是的，在一些小的方面是這樣。

I think if you have a hospital or Massive PhD programs in the sciences it it hits you very differently then Let's say a liberal arts university like ours where we do have PhD programs in the sciences and we do have federal funding But it's a it's a smaller scale.

我認為，如果你有一家醫院或大規模的科學博士項目，那麼它對你的影響就會非常不同，比方說，像我們這樣的文科大學，我們確實有科學博士項目，我們也確實有聯邦資助，但這是一個規模較小的項目。

We're not Immune to this these threats, but they're not They're not existential either So we feel it to some extent for sure I mean we have Pell Grant students and we have grants from the National Endowments and from the NIH and we've had some grants canceled, but I I I we haven't felt it the same way as Some of the schools one reads about in the newspaper As you know a lot of people shrug their shoulders at all of this.

是以，我們在某種程度上可以肯定地感受到這一點，我的意思是，我們有佩爾助學金的學生，我們有來自國家捐贈基金和美國國立衛生研究院的助學金，我們也有一些助學金被取消，但我我我我們沒有像報紙上讀到的一些學校那樣感受到這一點，你知道很多人對這一切都聳聳肩。

They think What's the big deal these campuses are full of privileged people with predictably extreme views views that aren't representative of most of the country So who cares to that sort of reaction and it is a common reaction Well, it's been an orchestrated reaction.

他們認為這有什麼大不了的，這些校園裡到處都是特權階層，他們的極端觀點是可以預見的，並不能代表全國大多數人的觀點，所以誰會在乎這種反應，而且這是一種常見的反應。

I think that You know them at UVA the fastest-growing majors.

我想你應該知道弗吉尼亞大學增長最快的專業。

I think our computer science and the fast-growing Minor is data science Hardly the stuff of woke lunatics and At Harvard, you know, the the most popular majors are the ones that lead to Wall Street again This is this notion that that Harvard or UVA is filled with people with extreme views who are Unrepresentative of America, they're unrepresentative of America because they're there's they're really smart It's smarter than I am You know, I couldn't get in there.

我認為我們的計算機科學和快速增長的數據科學專業 並不是瘋子的專業，在哈佛，你知道，最受歡迎的專業是那些能再次進入華爾街的專業 這就是這種觀念，認為哈佛或弗吉尼亞大學充斥著觀點極端的人，他們不代表美國，他們不代表美國，因為他們在那裡，他們真的很聰明，比我還聰明，你知道，我無法進入那裡。

I couldn't get have gotten it when I was a Young person that I certainly couldn't get in today.

當我還是個年輕人的時候，我不可能得到它，而今天我當然也不可能得到它。

I mean, they're just really smart gifted people and So, of course, there's a lot of resentment to them, which is a reaction that is cultivated by the right these days And it's unfortunate because in a democracy you can also be really proud of people who excel And we are right where we are proud of people who excel even though they do things.

我的意思是，他們都是非常聰明的天才，所以當然會有很多人對他們產生怨恨，這也是現在的右派所培養出來的一種反應，這很不幸，因為在民主社會里，你也可以為那些出類拔萃的人感到驕傲，而我們現在就為那些出類拔萃的人感到驕傲，即使他們做了一些事情。

We can't do like when I watch I don't know Patrick Mahoney's play quarterback and escape a crazy rush You know, I'm filled with admiration I don't feel like oh he should he should I don't know we should shoot him in the leg or something because he's so good or You know or you know the elite Fighters in the Navy SEALs to say or the Army Rangers We don't look we don't think of them as elitist.

我們不能像我看帕特里克-馬霍尼（Patrick Mahoney）打四分衛時那樣，瘋狂地衝過去，你知道，我充滿了欽佩，我不覺得他應該這樣，我不知道我們應該射他的腿什麼的，因為他太厲害了，或者你知道，或者你知道海豹突擊隊的精英戰士，或者陸軍遊騎兵，我們不覺得他們是精英。

We just think of them as exceptional but at some of these schools we resent them for having Created an environment where people like those guys can thrive and the rest of us don't have access to it and You know, I think that there's understandable resentment about that.

我們只是認為他們很出色，但在某些學校，我們卻因為他們創造了這樣一個環境而怨恨他們，因為在這樣一個環境中，像他們這樣的人可以茁壯成長，而我們其他人卻沒有機會，你知道，我認為這種怨恨是可以理解的。

So I think that the That in a healthy democracy you allow people to experiment with ideas With art with science with Politics there's it's never totally open-ended.

所以我認為，在一個健康的民主社會里，你允許人們嘗試各種想法、藝術、科學和政治，但這永遠不會是完全開放的。

Of course, there are always some guardrails or on these things and what we're seeing now is a concerted effort to bring those guardrails in so that people have to resemble the those in power right now and that is Unusually in history United States.

當然，在這些事情上總會有一些警戒線，而我們現在看到的是，人們正在齊心協力地引入這些警戒線，讓人們不得不像現在的當權者一樣，這在美國曆史上是很罕見的。

It has happened in other countries but that reduction of a space of experimentation is Not just about Harvard or University of Michigan or your local community college.

這種情況在其他國家也有發生，但實驗空間的縮小並不僅僅是哈佛大學、密歇根大學或當地社區大學的事情。

It'll also be about the Newspapers you read it'll be about broadcast television.

這也將與您閱讀的報紙有關，與廣播電視有關。

It'll be about Hollywood It's already about law firms, right which ones get to have access to federal buildings I mean that notion those executive orders that said if you have defended certain people that the president doesn't like your Company will no longer have access to the federal buildings.

我的意思是，那些行政命令說，如果你為總統不喜歡的某些人辯護，你的公司就不能再進入聯邦大樓。

I mean It's wildly ambitious in its authoritarianism if they get to push around Harvard there certainly will push around push push around Wesleyan and Middlesex Community College and And Rutgers and you know, and etc You use the word orchestrated do you think this is completely manufactured Do you think this is just partisan opportunism or is there something deeper going on here?

我的意思是，它的獨裁主義野心勃勃，如果他們能與哈佛分庭抗禮，肯定會與衛斯理學院、米德爾塞克斯社區學院、羅格斯大學等分庭抗禮，你用了 "精心策劃 "這個詞，你認為這完全是人為製造的嗎？ 你認為這只是黨派的機會主義，還是有更深層次的原因？

I mean even if some of this Backlash some of this resentment is cynical and and engineered and no doubt a lot of it is How much have universities contributed to it through leadership failures or bad policies?

我的意思是，即使這些反彈中有些是憤世嫉俗的，有些是人為製造的，但毫無疑問，其中有很多是大學上司失誤或政策不當造成的。

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a fair question.

I don't like it as you can imagine because I when when people ask me this question, I say It would be like saying to the Ukrainians hey, come on Hunter Biden Corruption You have them you have problems in the mining industry All of which I mean, there's there's some there's some stuff there.

你可以想象，我不喜歡這樣，因為當人們問我這個問題時，我會說，這就好比對烏克蘭人說，嘿，來吧，亨特-拜登 腐敗 你有他們，你有采礦業的問題 所有這些，我的意思是，那裡有一些，那裡有一些東西。

It's not great But when the Russians are attacking, I mean, it's not that's not why they're attacking The Russians are attacking Ukraine because they want to take it over the Trump administration is attacking you colleges universities because they want to take them over not because they they I don't know.

但當俄羅斯人攻擊烏克蘭時，我的意思是，這不是他們攻擊的原因，俄羅斯人攻擊烏克蘭是因為他們想佔領烏克蘭，而特朗普政府攻擊你們這些大學是因為他們想佔領大學，而不是因為他們，我不知道。

They shouldn't have had encampments or because not enough conservatives are going into physics So, yes universities Have real problems But I don't think that those problems are what has led to the assault on free speech on freedom of association and on The ability of schools to educate students the way they see fit the problems universities Are our political problems and We haven't done a good job in solving them, let me just mention two quick things I'm sorry to go on so long and an answer to your your brief question but let me just mention two things one is the ideological Conformity or the ideological narrowness of the faculty in most colleges and universities Especially at those like mine and then highly selective schools in the Northeast but all over the country University faculty Faculties are Mostly people left of center and that has gotten much worse over time And I think it's about prejudice on the part of the faculty not only prejudice, but that faculty members hire folks who with whom they're comfortable and So they hire people whose political views they're more comfortable with and I think that's a problem I think it should be fixed.

所以，是的，大學確實存在問題，但我不認為是這些問題導致了對言論自由、結社自由和學校以他們認為合適的方式教育學生的能力的攻擊，大學的問題是我們的政治問題，我們沒有很好地解決這些問題、請允許我簡單提兩點，很抱歉我說了這麼多，也很抱歉要回答你這個簡短的問題，但請允許我提兩點，一是大多數高校教師的意識形態一致性或意識形態狹隘性，尤其是像我這樣的學校，還有東北部的高選拔性學校，但全國各地的大學都是如此，高校教師大多是中間偏左的人，而且隨著時間的推移，這種情況變得越來越嚴重，我認為這與教師的偏見有關，不僅是偏見，而且

I think that it could and I think it should be fixed by the faculty itself That is they should being aware of their prejudices They should counteract them as best they can so I think that's a Significant problem and then there's the broader cultural problem.

是以，我認為這是一個重大問題，也是一個更廣泛的文化問題。

Has for a good chunk of time now Define its quality on the basis of the number of people that are excluded from it So we prize being highly selective.

在很長一段時間裡，我們都是根據被排除在外的人數來確定其品質的。

I use that phrase myself a few moments ago.

We're a highly selective University What does that mean?

we don't we reject most people who want to go there and That has that's a very American thing it's not only American, but it's it's you know that you want the thing you can't get access to that's a traditional capitalist bourgeois Fact that lots of people want the thing that they have trouble getting access to and Colleges universities I have said over time have cultivated condescension rather than democratic practices, so That and So in a culture that of grievance and resentment, which is ours in the last at least decade to 15 years Colleges universities are especially vulnerable because we have Prided ourselves on how hard it is to get into our schools rather than These schools that are so extraordinarily wealthy Deciding to educate not another hundred or two hundred people but to educate five times as many students because they can afford to do so but they don't take that step and Then the last thing I'll mention quickly, which is such an obvious thing that colleges and universities do that's dramatically unfair Is that they give preferences to their own?

我們不拒絕大多數想去那裡的人，這是非常美國式的事情，不僅是美國式的，而且是你知道的，你想要你無法獲得的東西，這是傳統資本主義資產階級的事實，很多人想要他們難以獲得的東西，而我說過，隨著時間的推移，高校培養了居高臨下的態度，而不是民主的做法，所以，所以在一個充滿怨恨和不滿的文化中、大學尤其容易受到影響 因為我們以入學難為榮 而不是讓這些異常富裕的學校 決定不再教育一兩百人 而是教育五倍於此的學生 因為他們有能力這麼做

Legacy preferences, which are the Trump administration has not targeted They probably could do it without political cost but legacy preferences that you know You take somebody because their parents went to your school.

傳統優惠政策，特朗普政府沒有將其作為目標，他們或許可以在不付出政治代價的情況下做到這一點，但傳統優惠政策，你知道，你會因為某人的父母曾在你的學校就讀而錄取他。

I mean, it's so obviously unfair and a highly selective school that it's California's trying to do away with it but in the Northeast It's very much entrenched and it's it's it's a great symbol for people of how the system is rigged against newcomers Support For the show comes from Shopify Starting a business is all about turning your ideas into reality and to see it through you need the right tools tools like Shopify Shopify is a commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and they say 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started like dr Sean Ellings drillings and fillings and the gray area sole patch die for hip cats who want to look as young as they feel Shopify's design studio lets you build a big beautiful online store that matches your brand style You can also use their AI tools to step up your content creation Plus you can easily create email and social media campaigns to meet your customers wherever they are If you're ready to sell you can be ready for Shopify You can turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side You can sign up for your $1 per month trial period and start selling today at Shopify comm slash Fox Go to Shopify comm slash Fox Shopify comm slash Fox Support for today's show comes from give well You might have read news on some of the massive cuts happening to foreign aid and with everything going on It might be hard to know what's actually happening or even how to help give well doesn't claim to have all the answers but for the past 18 years the nonprofit research organization says they have helped guide more than a 130,000 donors and two and a half billion dollars to highly cost-effective aid They really do terrific work the researchers are analyzing the impact of the cuts to USA ID in real time and Sharing what they're learning through research updates grant write-ups and candid podcast conversations This information is free and for everyone Give well says they have already committed tens of millions of dollars in response to this year's cuts and their researchers are working to forecast find and fund other new cost-effective needs for trusted evidence-backed insights into this evolving situation and Information about how you can help follow along and give well org slash USA ID.

我是說這顯然是不公平的，而且這所學校的選擇性很強，以至於加州試圖取消它，但在東北部，它卻根深蒂固，它是一個很好的象徵，讓人們知道這個系統是如何對新來者進行操縱的 支持本節目的是 Shopify 創業就是要把你的想法變成現實，而要實現這一點，你需要正確的工具，比如 Shopify Shopify 是全球數百萬企業背後的商務平臺，據說佔美國所有電子商務的 10%。Shopify的設計工作室可以讓您建立一個與您的品牌風格相匹配的漂亮的網上商店，您還可以使用他們的人工智能工具來加強您的內容創建，此外，您還可以輕鬆

I Think the basic problem that Elite colleges in particular have right now.

我認為，精英學院目前尤其面臨一個基本問題。

It's it's not just The sort of prejudice you're talking about in terms of hiring, right?

這不僅僅是你所說的在招聘方面的偏見，對嗎？

It's about the content It's about the teaching the material itself, right?

這與教學內容有關，與教材本身有關，對嗎？

I think people outside of these institutions Increasingly think they are places where ideology has been confused with inquiry where Education has been confused with activism Columbia, for instance has embraced its identity as a protest campus.

我認為，這些機構之外的人越來越多地認為它們是意識形態與探究相混淆的地方，是教育與行動主義相混淆的地方，比如哥倫比亞大學就接受了自己作為抗議校園的身份。

Or is this just what free speech is and what it ought?

還是說，這就是自由言論的本質和應有之義？

to look like Well, I I think it is both of those things I think it is a problem when schools define Let's say activism or civic engagement in a very ideologically restricted way.

我認為，當學校以非常受意識形態限制的方式來定義激進主義或公民參與時，就會出現問題。

I think it's a moral problem for schools.

I'll give you an example I'm giving a talk at some conference or and a guidance counselor from high school says I'll just tell you if one of my students was applying to Wesleyan and she said her civic engagement was to protecting the rights of the unborn It would be professional malpractice for me to allow her to put that in the application Now, I guess I was naive.

我給你舉個例子，我在某次會議上發表演講時，高中的一位輔導員說，我告訴你，如果我的一個學生申請衛斯理學院，她說她的公民參與是為了保護未出生嬰兒的權利，那麼我允許她在申請表中寫明這一點就是職業失當。

I've been a faculty member And I said come on Everybody knows that is civic engagement and he said and everybody in my world He said and guidance counselors know that your admissions people won't like it That was to me a slap in the head that I needed because I have no reason to doubt that he was right because all these guidance counselors like shaking their heads and I Think that's that's a that's a way in which the the soft despotism of prejudice in the College University constricts this free speech the realm of contestation and I've been fighting against it now for the last decade or so both as a as a Person who has access to the media and writes articles about such things Give speeches about such things, but but also as a teacher adding more conservative voices into my own classes I teach courses in the history of moral philosophy or Course on the modern and the postmodern and So I I've always privileged the kind of mavericks and and philosophy or political theory, but now I'm also adding to my classes Criticisms of those Voices of those progressive thinkers and Some of times the students are quite surprised by it and They're totally capable of dealing with the issues in other words They may not on their own Gravitate towards conservative critiques of progressivism, but when exposed to them, they're perfectly happy willing able to To deal with a variety of perspectives.

他說，在我的世界裡，每個人都知道這是公民參與 他說，輔導員也知道，你們的招生人員不會喜歡的 這對我來說是一記響亮的耳光，我需要它 因為我沒有理由懷疑他是對的 因為所有這些輔導員都喜歡搖頭我認為，這就是大學裡偏見的軟專制限制了言論自由和競爭領域的一種方式，在過去的十多年裡，我一直在與這種方式作鬥爭、但同時作為一名教師，我也在自己的課堂上加入了更多保守派的聲音，我教授道德哲學史或現代與後現代的課程，所以我一直對那些特立獨行者、哲學或政治理論持有特權、但現在，我也在我的課堂上加入了對那些進步思想家的責備，有些時

So all that is to say that a school can define a Civic purpose I think that's not intention with its Educational purposes and most schools in the in the United States ever since the 1700s Have had a civic purpose as part of what they do This this I think it's nonsense what some of the presidents these days are saying.

是以，我認為學校可以定義公民目的，但這與教育目的無關，自 1700 年代以來，美國的大多數學校都將公民目的作為其工作的一部分。

Oh, we're just for the pursuit of truth Colleges in America have always been about character and and about civics And so we can embrace that but we can't do it in a parochial way or if because if we do it in a parochial way We're limiting the educational potential of our students to explore ideas that may not be currently fashionable in their generation or Among the faculty and I found at Wesleyan Many faculty members who themselves might be leftists, you know But are perfectly happy to teach a range of material not Satirically or critically but actually because they know it's important even if it's not the where they've come down themselves and if schools do that, I Think they also make better citizens.

我們只是為了追求真理 美國的大學向來注重學生的品格和公民意識 我們可以接受這一點，但不能以狹隘的方式去做，因為如果我們以狹隘的方式去做，就會限制學生的教育潛能，使他們無法去探索那些在他們那一代或在教師中可能並不時髦的思想，我在衛斯理學院發現，許多教師本身可能是左派、但他們非常樂於教授各種材料，不是諷刺性或批判性的，而是因為他們知道這些材料很重要，即使這不是他們自己的觀點，如果學校這樣做，我想他們也會培養出更好的公民。

That is they make people who are more capable of Dealing with disagreement and conflict in the public sphere Do you see some other cultural or institutional or moral harm in too much?

也就是說，他們使人們更有能力處理公共領域中的分歧和衝突 你認為過多的分歧和衝突會造成其他文化、制度或道德方面的危害嗎？

Ideological conformity I do I do especially the humanities and interpretive social sciences.

意識形態的一致性我做我做，尤其是人文學科和解釋性社會科學。

I think people don't ask certain questions That conservatives have long asked they will neglect questions around let's say the family as a incubator of social practices that They they won't ask Questions around Inequality that conservatives might ask that that progressives don't don't ask I so I think a lot of things just don't get asked because There there's no one to ask those questions like, you know when I was a graduate student Women were starting to go to graduate school and they were asking questions about women's history and the men are like Women's history was just history, you know, and they said no well actually it's men's history you know, you haven't asked these questions about let's say childbirth or About women's work eventually people said oh my gosh.

我覺得人們不會問一些保守派一直在問的問題 他們會忽略一些問題 比如說家庭作為社會實踐的孵化器 他們不會問保守派可能會問的進步派不會問的不平等問題當我還是研究所學生的時候 婦女們開始上研究生院 她們問一些關於女性歷史的問題 男人們就說女性歷史只是歷史而已 他們說不 實際上是男性歷史

Those are really interesting questions, too You don't have to be a woman to ask them but you just so happens that men didn't ask them And so I think in some areas Having religious people having people libertarian perspectives having conservatives It really does open up questions that have that are productive and some will say what do you want Nazis?

這些問題也非常有趣，你不一定非得是女人才能問這些問題，但恰好男人不會問這些問題，所以我認為在某些領域，有宗教人士，有自由主義觀點的人，有保守派，這些問題確實很有意義，有些人會說，你想要納粹嗎？

You don't want flat-earth people in the geography department, but there's a there's a little there's a long way between You know a department that defines itself in let's say Marxist terms or in anti-colonial terms and Nazism there's a lot of other things there that can be asked that don't get asked in some colleges and universities because of ideological conformity Universities would be stronger if they were more intellectually diverse Because we learn more from people with we just with whom we disagree Than from people with whom we agree.

你不希望地理系裡有地球平 面論者，但這兩者之間還是有一段距離的。你知道，如果一個系是以馬克思主義或反殖民主義和納粹主義來定義自己的，那麼就會有很多其他的問題可以提出來，而這些問題在一些高校裡由於意識形態的一致性而沒有被提出來。

Is that to say that you think the university should be a place where people?

你的意思是說，你認為大學應該是一個人的地方？

Sometimes feel uncomfortable and if it is and I think we both believe that it is how do you distinguish productive discomfort?

有時會感到不舒服，如果是這樣，我想我們都認為是這樣，你如何區分生產性不適？

from actual harm It's a good question Theoretically, it's I don't find it.

這是一個很好的問題，從理論上講，我不這麼認為。

No, I mean, I don't find it that hard actually did it, you know, like But a lot of people seem to I know but I don't believe them I frankly like yesterday my grandson was sitting there He's six years old and he says he finds out that there's a button in the car That somebody pushed by mistake in his seat got very warm, you know a seat warmer.

不，我的意思是，我不覺得這很難 實際上，你知道，像 但很多人似乎 我知道，但我不相信他們 我坦率地說，像昨天 我的孫子坐在那裡 他是六歲 他說，他發現有一個按鈕 在車上 有人按下錯誤 他的座位變得非常溫暖， 你知道一個座位加熱器。

So he's looking at that button He's thinking what if I push it by mistake?

他看著那個按鈕，在想如果我按錯了怎麼辦？

and he's get starts getting upset because what if my to what if my foot hits it and and the proper answer is like Just calm down basically because he's not really being harmed by that button I've had to say to students and I know not every one of my colleagues don't always agree Well, they'll say I don't feel safe.

我不得不對學生說，我知道不是每個同事都會同意，他們會說我沒有安全感。

I'll say you are safe and They said I don't feel safe as I said, that's really not my problem.

我說你很安全，他們說我沒有安全感，這真的不是我的問題。

My problem is if you're not safe, that's my problem I had a student years ago wanted a band someone from graduation This guy had done some stupid stuff and And he was punished for it.

我的問題是，如果你不安全，那就是我的問題。 幾年前，我有個學生想在畢業典禮上請個樂隊，這傢伙做了些蠢事，他是以受到了懲罰。

She said but I don't want him at graduation and if to me that was like He wanted a scalp.

她說，但我不想讓他參加畢業典禮，如果對我來說，這就像是他想要一個頭皮。

He wanted the trophy of saying I had him banned.

I said no, I Guarantee your safety if you don't want to come that's about it's up to you.

我說不，我保證你的安全，如果你不想來，那就由你決定。

We had a speaker this year who had Controversial Inquiry about trans issues, especially about gender affirming care for young people she hadn't taken a stand on it, but she had explored these issues and the real controversies around them a Group of students came and said we think you should cancel this Because I think you're doing actual harm and I have said Our duty is to protect the vulnerable like trans students and immigrants undocumented people I've said that publicly many times.

今年我們請了一位演講者，她對變性問題進行了有爭議的調查，特別是關於為年輕人提供性別肯定護理的問題，她並沒有對此表態，但她探討了這些問題以及圍繞這些問題的真正爭議。一群學生過來說，我們認為你應該取消這次演講，因為我認為你正在造成實際傷害。

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