Name: 工黨內訌後，英國首相是否失去權威？| 英國廣播公司新聞廣播 (Is the UK Prime Minister losing authority after Labour infighting? | BBC Newscast)
Uploaded: 2025-07-20T17:11:05.000Z
Duration: 27 min 18 s

Now, why, why, why, Paddy, would this be the question that we want to ask at this moment in time, do you think?

現在，為什麼，為什麼，為什麼，帕迪，你認為這是我們此時此刻想問的問題嗎？

Well, it's to do with the fact that the Labour government is booting out MPs, which is surprising everybody.

這與工黨政府正在驅逐議員這一事實有關，這讓所有人都感到驚訝。

And it's surprising everybody because they've got such a massive majority.

這讓所有人都大吃一驚，因為他們獲得瞭如此之多的多數票。

And so this theory goes, if you have a massive majority, as one Whitehall insider, a senior figure said to me, this government should be walking on water, there should be nothing they can't do.

是以，這種理論認為，如果你擁有絕大多數席位，就像一位白廳內部人士，一位資深人士對我說的那樣，這個政府應該如履平地，應該沒有他們做不到的事情。

And why, therefore, should they bother about a bit of grumbling from the back benches?

是以，他們為什麼要為來自後座的抱怨而煩惱呢？

Does it look a bit petty to feel that they have to chuck people out?

他們覺得必須把人趕走，這看起來是不是有點小氣？

And of course, when you speak to one of them, as I did, Rachel Maskell, it's clear that there's a differential by how they're all being treated.

當然，當你像我一樣與蕾切爾-馬斯凱爾（Rachel Maskell）交談時，就會發現她們受到的待遇是有差別的。

It's like the government whips have been looking for the ringleaders, the people who are organising dissent.

就像政府的鞭子一直在尋找頭目，尋找那些組織異議的人。

I don't know if this is you've picked up.

That's certainly what I was getting in conversations leading up to the PM programme with Rachel Maskell.

在與雷切爾-馬斯凱爾（Rachel Maskell）進行首相訪談前的談話中，我確實得到了這樣的資訊。

I know what I was told, and that was because I spoke out for the poor on their social security.

我知道我被告知了什麼，那是因為我為窮人的社會保障大聲疾呼。

The word that was briefed to journalists was you were engaged and the four of you were engaged in knobheadery.

記者們得到的消息是，你們已經訂婚了，而且你們四個人還在卿卿我我。

Well, I have to ask if that is appropriate conduct, because I certainly think speaking for the poor is, but that isn't.

我想問，這是否是恰當的行為，因為我當然認為為窮人說話是恰當的，但這並不恰當。

And yet I end up suspended in this process.

然而，在這個過程中，我最終還是被暫停了。

And given that Labour has four years, and given that you want to change, are you saying Labour has to change?

鑑於工黨還有四年的時間，鑑於你想要改變，你是說工黨必須改變嗎？

The opinion polls aren't working in our favour, which is saying Labour has to change.

民意調查對我們不利，這說明工黨必須做出改變。

And I think that is not about the retail offer, the policies, because we've got some great policies out there, but it is about the culture, as well as obviously making sure that we do what the Labour Party was created to do, to stand up for the people that need our voice.

我認為，這不是零售業的問題，也不是政策的問題，因為我們已經有了一些很好的政策，但這是文化的問題，顯然也是確保我們做工黨創立之初要做的事情，為需要我們發聲的人們挺身而出。

Rachel Maskell, the MP who's been booted out of Labour for now, cleverly, laudably failing to take your bait when you cheaply used the word knobheadery, which was used by party sources to explain why she and others had been kicked out.

蕾切爾-馬斯凱爾（Rachel Maskell）是目前被工黨開除的議員，當你廉價地使用 "笨蛋"（knobheadery）一詞來解釋她和其他人被開除的原因時，她聰明地、值得稱讚地沒有上你的當。

But also they're referring to the opinion polls.

And the latest YouGov voting attention suggests reform is on 27%, Labour on 22%, the Tories significantly behind reform on 17% and the Greens at 12%.

最新的YouGov投票關注度顯示，改革派的支持率為27%，工黨為22%，保守黨明顯落後於改革派，為17%，綠黨為12%。

Because as she said, and as you said, that distinction between what Rachel Maskell was accused of doing alongside Brian Leishman, Neil Duncan Jordan and Chris Hinchcliffe, the other three MPs who've had the whip taken off them for now, is they're accused of organising.

因為正如她所說，也正如你所說，蕾切爾-馬斯凱爾與布萊恩-利什曼、尼爾-鄧肯-喬丹和克里斯-欣奇克利夫--其他三位暫時被撤職的國會議員--被指控的行為之間的區別在於，他們被指控組織。

And that is the distinction when you talk to government about what they were doing.

當你與政府談論他們的所作所為時，這就是區別所在。

Why does Keir Starmer, who's got a huge majority, need to worry about noises off from a tiny clutch of MPs?

基爾-斯塔默（Keir Starmer）擁有絕大多數的議員席位，為什麼還要擔心一小撮議員的喧譁？

Organising resistance was essentially what was described to me.

組織抵抗基本上就是向我描述的內容。

And a senior government figure said, you can have as big a majority as you want, but if you've got no discipline, you end up with chaos.

一位政府高級官員說，你可以擁有儘可能多的多數，但如果你沒有紀律，最終就會陷入混亂。

And the country can't have chaos when the government's trying to fix all the things that they came in to try to do.

當政府正在努力解決他們上臺後要解決的所有問題時，國家不能出現混亂。

But I think it does still look quite small, if you like.

但我認為，如果你喜歡，它看起來還是挺小的。

You know, somebody reminded me this week, Tony Blair didn't kick anybody out when many, many of his MPs rebelled and voted against the war in Iraq.

你知道嗎，這周有人提醒我，託尼-布萊爾在很多很多國會議員反叛並投票反對伊拉克戰爭時，並沒有把任何人趕出去。

And it is rare, very rare for a Prime Minister to act like this.

總理這樣做是非常罕見的，非常罕見的。

Yes, it looks a lot to me, who's not the expert, that they were surprised, because they went a long way down the line with welfare plans.

是的，在不是專家的我看來，他們很驚訝，因為他們在福利計劃方面走了很長的路。

And then there was that flurry of activity when they were being told that they were going to face a very big rebellion, even though people on the inside, including Nick Watt on Newsnight and many of the times you were briefing us, people were saying there is a lot of resistance on the back benches to removing the PIP payments from thousands of people.

儘管內部人士，包括新聞之夜節目中的尼克-瓦特（Nick Watt），以及您多次向我們介紹情況時，都說後座上有很多人反對取消成千上萬人的PIP付款，但他們還是被告知他們將面臨巨大的反叛。

And it was the government's own figures that said that was going to make people worse off.

而正是政府自己的數據顯示，這將使人們的生活變得更糟。

So it was very difficult after a while to understand why they didn't see all that coming.

所以，過了一段時間後，我很難理解他們為什麼沒有預見到這一切。

So look, the sequencing is again in question here, because when they came in, they allowed the narrative to be about winter fuel payments.

所以，聽著，這裡的排序又有問題了，因為當他們上臺時，他們允許講述的是冬季燃料費的問題。

They've had the rebellion, they did the U-turn, and now they're dumping people.

他們造反了，調頭了，現在又在甩人。

And it has begged the question around Keir Starmer's authority this week, because booting people out does raise this question of, did they really understand what was going on on the back benches?

這也引發了人們對基爾-斯塔默（Keir Starmer）本週權威性的質疑，因為把人趕走確實會引發這樣一個問題：他們真的瞭解後座上發生了什麼嗎？

Where's the balance of power between back benches and Downing Street?

後座議員和唐寧街之間的權力平衡在哪裡？

And as someone said to me this week, look, number 10 was completely spooked, to use their word, by what happened over welfare.

就像本週有人對我說的那樣，用他們的話說，10號完全被福利問題上發生的事情嚇壞了。

But they went on to say, I don't think back benches are running it, but they do have a taste for power.

但他們接著說，我不認為是幕後黑手在操縱，但他們確實有權力的味道。

And I think what's happened in the last few weeks, and even in the last 24 hours, where one of the people who was booted out has had a flavour of what he was calling for on planning reform now accepted by the government, which the Prime Minister, I think the balance between Downing Street and the back benches has shifted in the last couple of weeks.

我認為過去幾周發生的事情，甚至是過去24小時內發生的事情，其中一位被趕走的人在規劃改革問題上的呼籲已被政府接受，而首相也接受了這一點，我認為唐寧街和後座之間的平衡在過去幾周內發生了變化。

And there's just a bit of a, if you like, I wouldn't say the skids have been put under the relationship, but there certainly is a bit of kind of unease around it.

如果你願意，我不會說這種關係已經岌岌可危，但肯定會有一些不安。

Back benches who have now largely, not completely, but many of them have already sort of packed up for the holidays.

後排長椅上的人現在已經基本上，不是完全，但其中許多人已經收拾好東西準備過節了。

Some of them will be in Westminster a few days next week.

其中一些人下週將在威斯敏斯特逗留幾天。

Clearly, the party managers hope that they won't be chit-chatting with each other and plotting and resisting, looking ahead to making life difficult for Keir Starmer at the party conference when we come back after the summer.

顯然，黨的管理者希望他們不要相互閒聊、密謀和抵制，期待著在夏季過後我們回來時，在黨的會議上給基爾-斯塔默製造麻煩。

But there is just something not going as smoothly as you might like.

但有些事情並不像你希望的那樣順利。

And inside number 10, the sort of acknowledgement that they felt they had to lay the law down.

而在10號內部，他們也承認，他們認為必須制定法律。

But some commentators have interpreted that as them looking like they're a bit thin-skinned or maybe a bit insecure.

但有些評論家認為，他們看起來臉皮有點薄，或者有點不自信。

And should they be able to just relax their muscles and not worry about it?

難道他們就可以放鬆肌肉，不用擔心嗎？

Because that's why you began our podcast by saying who's in charge of the question, who's in charge.

因為這就是為什麼你在播客一開始就說誰負責這個問題，誰負責。

A decision just before they rise for their holidays to kick four of them out, the troublemakers out, accused in briefings of knobheadery.

就在他們起床度假之前，決定把他們中的四個人踢出去，這些麻煩製造者在簡報中被指責為笨蛋。

Who's behind that decision, do you think?

你認為誰是這一決定的幕後黑手？

Do you think it's because they're rising in a couple of days, rising being the political jargon for on holiday?

你認為這是因為他們過幾天就要升旗了，升旗是放假的政治術語嗎？

And who came into a room and said, biff them?

又是誰走進房間，說 "揍他們"？

Well, first point, any MPs listening, anybody in Parliament listening, they will all be screaming at their earbuds saying they'll be working hard in their constituencies and government ministers will be working hard in their departments.

好吧，第一點，任何正在收聽的國會議員，任何正在收聽的議會成員，他們都會對著耳機大喊大叫，說他們會在自己的選區努力工作，政府部長們會在自己的部門努力工作。

So I will put that therefore on the record, they don't all disappear and do nothing but sit on the lounger for six weeks.

是以，我要把這一點記錄在案，他們並不是都消失了，只是在躺椅上坐了六個星期。

However, how it was explained to me is that Keir Starmer was, I was told, clear from the beginning of this fiasco over welfare.

然而，我得到的解釋是，基爾-斯塔默（Keir Starmer）從一開始就很清楚這場福利風波。

He was supposedly, I was briefed, clear that there would be repercussions for people who were repeatedly causing trouble.

據我所知，他明確表示，如果有人屢次製造麻煩，就會受到懲罰。

Not people who just quietly voted against because they had unease or didn't agree with the policy, but people who were trying to foment discontent and make life difficult for the government.

不是那些因為不安或不同意政策而悄悄投反對票的人，而是那些試圖煽動不滿情緒、讓政府為難的人。

And even, you know, a senior MP said to me, well, if you think of one of them, and I won't name them, they had never behaved like a Labour MP at all since they'd been elected.

甚至，你知道，一位資深議員對我說，好吧，如果你想到他們中的一個人，我就不點名了，他們自從當選以來就從來沒有表現得像一個工黨議員。

They'd always been shooting their mouth off and trying to make life hard.

他們總是口無遮攔，試圖讓生活變得艱難。

I'm then told that the whips essentially drew up a list of people who had been organising resistance against some of the things that Downing Street wanted to do.

然後我被告知，黨鞭們基本上列出了一份名單，名單上的人一直在組織抵制唐寧街想要做的一些事情。

And then that list was then presented to Downing Street and they decided to take action.

然後，這份名單被提交給唐寧街，他們決定採取行動。

So I think clearly over welfare, there was a malfunction between the whips and Number 10.

是以，我認為很明顯，在福利問題上，黨鞭和 10 號之間出現了故障。

The whips had been warning Number 10 for ages that there was trouble ahead.

鞭子們早就警告過 10 號，前面會有麻煩。

Number 10 didn't want to ditch the policy.

Ministers were all told out to go out and defend it.

I kind of wonder if after the welfare debacle, there was a bit of the whip saying, look, well, we kind of, we were trying to tell you, we told you so, you've got to do something here, you've got to make a point.

我有點懷疑，在福利危機之後，是否有一些鞭子在說："聽著，我們想告訴你，我們告訴過你，你必須在這裡做點什麼，你必須提出一個觀點。

And therefore, voila, here is the repercussion.

Here is the moment where actions have consequences.

But I just wonder, actually, I know some Labour MPs don't see this as a kind of thing that is going to make them more likely to fall in line.

但我只是想知道，事實上，我知道有些工黨議員並不認為這會讓他們更容易站隊。

Some of them just think this is a thing that has made them a bit cross and feel a bit patronised.

他們中的一些人只是覺得這件事讓他們有點過意不去，覺得自己有點被光顧了。

And one senior MP who was one of the initial welfare rebels, said to me about it, look, actually, the point here is they've got to respect backbenchers, because we're the people hearing from the public.

一位資深國會議員是最初的福利反叛者之一，他對我說，聽著，事實上，這裡的關鍵是他們必須尊重後座議員，因為我們是聽取公眾意見的人。

The flip side is on the inside of the government, they say, look, people in the Parliamentary Labour Party, who want us to spend more money, have to understand, and I'm paraphrasing, have to understand that if you want to spend more money, it's got to come from somewhere.

反過來，在政府內部，他們會說："聽著，那些希望我們花更多錢的議會工黨成員必須明白，我是在轉述他們的話，他們必須明白，如果你想花更多的錢，錢就得從某個地方來。

You can't just keep saying yes to everything.

And that's another part of your who's in charge question is that the markets in charge because they appeared to get a giant stick and poke it at the British government when Liz Truss was in charge, that seemed to be a big market reminder, the bond markets terrify elected politicians.

這也是 "誰說了算 "的另一個問題，即市場說了算，因為在利茲-特魯斯（Liz Truss）當政時，市場似乎拿著一根巨大的棍子戳向英國政府，這似乎是一個很大的市場提醒，債券市場讓民選政治家感到恐懼。

And I will say that a lot of newscasters might think they don't really want to be run by the bond markets, they would like to be run by the politicians that have been elected under our system.

我想說的是，很多新聞主播可能認為他們並不真正希望由債券市場來管理，他們更希望由在我們的制度下當選的政治家來管理。

So it's actually always been a source ever since I was a student of politics of real anger, that the markets can push elected governments around.

是以，從我學習政治的時候起，我就一直對市場可以左右民選政府感到憤怒。

But here's a fact, the markets can push elected governments around.

但一個事實是，市場可以左右民選政府。

So one of the things we've got to discuss before we go away, not on our holiday, but in our working discussions in other rooms, is what role the markets have.

是以，在我們離開之前，不是在我們的假期，而是在我們在其他房間的工作討論中，我們必須討論的一件事就是市場的作用。

But I just wanted to add something that I got from the chatter around Rachel Muskell when I was in York, which is a constituency, I was told by people close to her, that in the street, people have started honking at her and saying, good on you, Rachel, that it's not happening all the time.

但我只想補充一點，當我在約克（這是我的一個選區）時，我從圍繞瑞秋-穆斯克爾的談話中得到了一些資訊，她身邊的人告訴我，在街上，人們已經開始向她按喇叭，並說，瑞秋，你做得很好，這並不是一直髮生的。

And I didn't go out on the street with her.

But I was told that that's been a change since she's been an MP in the last couple of weeks, because she's tackled this issue.

但有人告訴我，自從她過去幾周擔任國會議員以來，情況發生了變化，因為她解決了這個問題。

She's she's getting the public to pay attention to the difference between her position and the Labour government's position.

她要讓公眾注意到她的立場與工黨政府立場之間的差異。

And that's a real world consequence for her in her constituency, perhaps it has bought her more support.

這對她的選區來說是一個現實的後果，也許這為她贏得了更多的支持。

And it's also worth knowing, you know, for newscasters, Rachel Muskell is not the kind of politician who looks for a cheap headline.

值得注意的是，對於新聞記者來說，蕾切爾-穆斯凱爾並不是那種追求廉價標題的政客。

She's not somebody who's sort of, you know, huge on social media.

她不是那種在社交媒體上大紅大紫的人。

She's not somebody who has overtly done anything other than diligently over many years speak up for the things that she believes in.

多年來，她除了孜孜不倦地為自己的信念大聲疾呼之外，並沒有公開做過其他事情。