Name: 特朗普稱 MAGA 群體為 "弱者"，他們的分歧加劇 | DW News (Divisions rise in MAGA base as Trump calls them 'weaklings' | DW News)
Uploaded: 2025-07-17T08:20:34.000Z
Duration: 22 min 39 s

U.S. President Donald Trump has turned on members of his MAGA movement amid growing divisions in his usually loyal base.

美國總統唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）對他的 MAGA 運動成員反目成仇，而他一向忠實的支持者也日益分裂。

分詞構句

Posting on his Truth Social network, he called them weaklings.

他在自己的 "真理 "社交網絡上發帖，稱他們是弱者。

Many of them accused the Trump administration of covering up information on child sex offender

其中許多人指責特朗普政府掩蓋兒童性犯罪者的資訊。

Jeffrey Epstein and his possible accomplices, despite the administration's promises of full transparency.

傑弗裡-愛潑斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein）及其可能的同謀，儘管政府承諾完全透明。

For a long time, it seemed that President Donald Trump could do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters.

在很長一段時間裡，唐納德-特朗普總統在其支持者眼中似乎不會犯錯。

But the U.S. administration's handling of the Epstein case is raising eyebrows.

但美國政府對愛潑斯坦一案的處理方式卻令人瞠目結舌。

So, are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

你還在談論傑弗裡-愛潑斯坦嗎？

讓特朗普不屑一顧的是，人們正在這樣做。

In particular, they're talking about a supposed client list, which allegedly details the names of people to whom Jeffrey Epstein trafficked teenage girls for sexual abuse.

特別是，他們在談論一份所謂的客戶名單，據稱其中詳細列出了傑弗裡-愛潑斯坦販賣少女進行性虐待的對象的姓名。

Before he returned to the White House, Trump and other right-wing figures accused the Biden administration of keeping the list secret to protect paedophiles.

在重返白宮之前，特朗普和其他右翼人士指責拜登政府對名單保密是為了保護戀童癖者。

And in February, Trump's Attorney General Pam Bondi said the list was sitting on a desk.

今年 2 月，特朗普的司法部長帕姆-邦迪（Pam Bondi）說，這份名單就放在辦公桌上。

The Trump administration having to backpedal on its former claims and defend a decision not to release further files related to the case.

特朗普政府不得不對其之前的說法進行反駁，併為不公開與此案有關的更多文件的決定進行辯護。

It's caused an uproar in and outside of the White House.

這在白宮內外引起了軒然大波。

The American people deserve to know the truth.

What, if anything, is the Trump administration and the Department of Justice hiding?

如果有的話，特朗普政府和司法部在隱瞞什麼？

That's the question on many people's minds.

Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking trial sparked years of speculation about whom the convicted sex offender helped to abuse young women and teenage girls.

傑弗裡-愛潑斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein）的性交易案引發了人們多年的猜測，這位被定罪的性犯罪者究竟幫助誰虐待了年輕婦女和少女。

And whether he really died by suicide or if he was murdered to protect the rich and influential.

他是真的死於自殺，還是為了保護富人和權貴而被謀殺。

Trump's MAGA movement has been particularly obsessed with the Epstein case, hoping it would prove the existence of a so-called deep state, protecting Satanists and paedophiles.

特朗普的 MAGA 運動尤其痴迷於愛潑斯坦一案，希望以此證明存在所謂的深層國家，保護撒旦主義者和戀童癖者。

In an about turn, President Trump has now publicly said that more information about the case can be released after all, while continuing to downplay its importance.

特朗普總統一反常態，在繼續淡化此案重要性的同時，又公開表示可以公佈更多有關此案的資訊。

Whether a real instruction or an off-the-cuff comment to appease his base, arguably for the first time ever, Donald Trump is having to contend with the fact that the loyalty of his supporters has limits when it comes to one of their favorite conspiracy theories.

無論是真正的訓示，還是為了安撫他的支持者而隨口發表的評論，唐納德-特朗普可以說是有史以來第一次不得不面對這樣一個事實：他的支持者對他們最喜歡的陰謀論之一的忠誠是有限度的。

And many MAGA experts think it'll be Pam Bondi who will take the fall for it.

許多 MAGA 專家認為，帕姆-邦迪將為此背黑鍋。

Glenn Thrush reports on the U.S. Justice Department for the New York Times, who's been covering the case extensively.

格倫-特拉什（Glenn Thrush）為《紐約時報》報道了美國司法部的情況，他對此案進行了廣泛報道。

I asked him what he thinks of the Trump administration's claim that there's nothing to see here.

我問他如何看待特朗普政府關於這裡沒什麼可看的說法。

Well, from everything that we know, and there have been a series of investigations into the Epstein case, starting under the Biden administration.

據我們所知 從拜登政府開始 對愛潑斯坦一案進行了一系列調查

Epstein was found dead in his jail cell in New York City in 2019.

2019 年，愛潑斯坦被發現死於紐約市的監獄牢房中。

There was a coroner's investigation in New York.

There was an Office of the Inspector General investigation that determined he had died of a suicide and there was no foul play involved.

監察長辦公室進行了調查，確定他死於自殺，不涉及犯規行為。

And then there was this longer FBI and Justice Department investigation, which also uncovered no evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

之後，聯邦調查局和司法部進行了更長時間的調查，也沒有發現任何刑事犯罪證據。

All we can say is we have done interviews with investigators over the years.

我們只能說，這些年來，我們與調查人員進行了訪談。

We have done a fairly extensive review in various reporters in our newsroom and other newsrooms and no one has uncovered any specific connections between Trump and Epstein other than business connections and some fairly superficial social interactions that are well documented on video and in photographs.

我們的新聞編輯室和其他新聞編輯室的不同記者做了相當廣泛的審查，除了商業聯繫和一些相當膚淺的社交互動之外，沒有人發現特朗普和愛潑斯坦之間有任何具體的聯繫，而這些聯繫在視頻和照片中都有詳細的記錄。

So the problem here is Epstein is one of the true villains of our age.

是以，問題在於愛潑斯坦是我們這個時代真正的惡棍之一。

He had all kinds of relationships with the rich and powerful.

他與有錢有勢的人有著各種各樣的關係。

So what we know is, from what we've heard from the investigative material, is that apparently there are no larger connections to Trump.

是以，我們從調查材料中瞭解到的情況是，顯然與特朗普沒有更大的聯繫。

But again, you know, there are perhaps unknowns.

但是，你也知道，也許還有一些未知數。

What then do you think is prompting all this flip-flopping, not just of the president, but also his attorney general and FBI director?

那麼，您認為是什麼原因促使總統、司法部長和聯邦調查局局長如此翻來覆去？

So what people don't understand necessarily, who aren't in this fever swamp of Washington,

所以，不在華盛頓這個發燒沼澤裡的人一定不明白、

D.C. and American politics right now, is that the energy of the Epstein conspiracy movement is almost religious.

在華盛頓特區和美國政壇，愛潑斯坦陰謀運動的能量幾乎是宗教性的。

And while the Epstein case does not reflect positively on President Trump, the underlying assumptions of the conspiracists, that there's a shady government cabal of rich and powerful people who are covering up these monstrous crimes, is very much the stock and trade of the Trump movement.

雖然愛潑斯坦一案對特朗普總統並無正面影響，但陰謀論者的基本假設，即有一個由有錢有勢的人組成的黑幕政府陰謀集團在掩蓋這些滔天罪行，卻是特朗普運動的主要內容。

And all of these officials, we have three key officials who are involved in this.

所有這些官員，我們有三位重要官員參與其中。

The attorney general of the United States, Pam Bondi, the former attorney general of

美國前總檢察長帕姆-邦迪（Pam Bondi

Florida, who's sort of a conventional Trump-aligned law enforcement official.

佛羅里達州，他是一位傳統的與特朗普結盟的執法官員。

And then you have these two men who are running the FBI, Kash Patel, the director, and Dan

這兩個人是聯邦調查局的負責人 卡什-帕特爾，局長，和丹

Bongino, his number two, who are both creatures of this Trump outsider movement.

邦吉諾，他的二號人物，都是特朗普局外人運動的產物。

Both of those individuals do not have conventional credentials to be occupying the top positions at the FBI.

這兩個人都不具備擔任聯邦調查局最高職位的常規資歷。

And prior to being there, they were both podcasters and social media personalities who promoted conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein.

而在此之前，他們都是播客和社交媒體名人，宣揚關於傑弗裡-愛潑斯坦的陰謀論。

So you have this instance in which they are being called upon to slam the door, essentially, on a door they themselves kicked open.

是以，在這種情況下，他們被要求去 "摔門"，本質上是去 "摔 "一扇他們自己踢開的門。

So what then should we expect from this administration regarding this case?

那麼，我們對本屆政府在此案上的表現有何期待呢？

Does Pam Bondi open the doors and hand over the documents, or is there likely to be more flip-flopping?

帕姆-邦迪（Pam Bondi）會打開大門，交出文件，還是可能會有更多的翻供？

Number two, the question is, what is there to hand over?

第二，問題是，有什麼需要移交的？

Part of the question here is whether or not this treasure trove that people presume exists, exists.

這裡的部分問題是，人們推測的寶庫是否存在。

The main thing that's become the talisman, the totem of this case, is the so-called Jeffrey

本案的護身符和圖騰就是所謂的 "傑弗裡"。

Well, we've been told from investigators in both administrations, the Biden administration and Trump administration, that such a list doesn't exist.

拜登政府和特朗普政府的調查人員都告訴我們，這樣一份名單並不存在。

他們中的許多人有權有勢又富有。

Most of those names are out there in public already.

But we have been told both now and before that such a client list doesn't exist.

但現在和以前都有人告訴我們，這樣的客戶名單並不存在。

The other issue is there are tens of thousands of hours of video evidence that the FBI and

另一個問題是，有數萬小時的視頻證據，聯邦調查局和

Some of it involved Epstein's death and the surveillance video, which has some gaps in it from the federal prison in New York City where he died.

其中一些內容涉及愛潑斯坦的死因和監控錄像，在愛潑斯坦死亡的紐約市聯邦監獄，監控錄像存在一些漏洞。

But most of it are videos and photographic evidence that include child pornography, surveillance tapes that would continue to harm victims and potential witnesses in cases.

但其中大部分都是包含兒童色情內容的視頻和照片證據，這些監控錄像帶會繼續傷害案件中的受害者和潛在證人。

So the question is, what is it that we're looking for?

那麼問題來了，我們要找的是什麼？

What we have reported, what I have been able to surface, is that dozens and dozens of FBI agents, dozens and dozens of Department of Justice prosecutors have spent six weeks or so in a facility just outside of Washington, D.C. over the past six months going through every scrap of evidence that the government has.

我們所報道的，我所能看到的是，在過去的六個月裡，幾十名聯邦調查局特工和幾十名司法部檢察官在華盛頓特區外的一個設施裡待了六週左右的時間，檢查了政府掌握的所有證據。

And they found insufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution.

他們發現證據不足，無法起訴。

And that's what prompted the memo we saw the week before last closing the case.

這就是我們在前一週看到的結案備忘錄的起因。

Thanks for joining us, Glenn, and talking us through that.

謝謝你加入我們的談話，格倫。

來自《紐約時報》的 Glenn Thrush。

Let's explore with Ben Smith, who's co-founder and editor-in-chief of the global news website

讓我們與全球新聞網站的聯合創始人兼主編本-史密斯一起探討一下吧

The so-called Epstein files, they're meat and drink to conspiracy theorists.

所謂的愛潑斯坦檔案，對陰謀論者來說就是酒肉。

But you don't have to be wearing a tinfoil hat to find the Trump administration's flip-flopping on this.

但你不必戴著錫箔帽，也能發現特朗普政府在這方面的翻來覆去。

I kind of think you do have to be wearing a tinfoil hat, honestly.

老實說，我有點認為你必須戴著錫箔帽。

I mean, this is a genuinely, as Trump said, boring and sordid story.

我的意思是，正如特朗普所說，這是一個真正無聊而骯髒的故事。

That has been very, very intensely investigated by every journalist in the United States and every law enforcement body in the U.S. for more than a decade.

十多年來，美國的每一位記者和每一個執法機構都對此進行了非常、非常深入的調查。

The document that sometimes gets referred to really totally inaccurately as a client list, which is Epstein's address book, was put on the Internet by Gawker 10 years ago.

這份有時被稱為客戶名單的文件，即愛潑斯坦的通訊錄，10 年前被 Gawker 放到了互聯網上，這完全是不準確的。

There are various searchable versions on there.

His co-conspirator in this really disgusting abuse of young women, which is very well documented, has been in jail for years.

他的同謀對年輕女性實施了令人作嘔的虐待，有據可查，已入獄多年。

If she had anything to offer the government, if she had revelations implicating whichever

如果她能為政府提供任何線索，如果她能揭露牽涉到任何

Democrat Trump hates, she probably would have given that up at this point.

特朗普憎恨的民主黨人，此時她可能已經放棄了。

I think it's in a way a sort of pizza gate for people with college educations.

我認為，在某種程度上，它是受過大學教育的人的披薩門。

It's a sex trafficking conspiracy theory that's fun to talk about, but really the more you look at it, the less there is there.

這是一個性交易陰謀論，說起來很有趣，但實際上你越看它，它就越不存在。

I mean, I think there is a very good reason that Trump is so sensitive about it, which is that in a totally non-conspiratorial, utterly public way in the 90s and I think the late 80s, he and Jeffrey Epstein were friends.

我的意思是，我認為特朗普對此事如此敏感是有充分理由的，那就是在上世紀 90 年代和我認為是 80 年代末，他和傑弗裡-愛潑斯坦曾是朋友，而且是以一種完全非共謀、完全公開的方式。

And Epstein said to the author, Michael Wolff, that he was Trump's best friend.

愛潑斯坦對作者邁克爾-沃爾夫說，他是特朗普最好的朋友。

I don't know if that's true, but that is obviously the thing that Trump is embarrassed about.

我不知道這是否屬實，但這顯然是特朗普感到尷尬的地方。