Name: 情緒是如何產生的：作者訪談第一部分--身體預算 (How Emotions Are Made: Interview with the Author Part 1 - The Body Budget)
Uploaded: 2025-06-17T16:39:17.000Z
Duration: 22 min 34 s

基礎數量詞

Hello everyone, and welcome to Simon's Book Club, where we'll be discussing some of the best books in psychology, neuroscience, consciousness, mindfulness, relationships, and many ideas that are good for the body.

大家好，歡迎來到西蒙讀書俱樂部，我們將在這裡討論心理學、神經科學、意識、正念、人際關係以及許多對身體有益的觀點方面的一些好書。

情態助動詞 A2

Over the past few weeks, I've been discussing Lisa Feldman Barrett's How Emotions Are Made, and talking about some of the major ideas that could really change how we understand emotions altogether.

在過去的幾周裡，我一直在討論麗莎-費爾德曼-巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）的《情緒是如何形成的》（How Emotions Are Made）一書，並談論了一些可能會真正改變我們對情緒的理解的主要觀點。

Now we've undone some of these major myths about emotions.

現在，我們已經打破了關於情緒的一些主要神話。

We don't have a lizard brain and then a mammal brain like the triune brain model suggests.

我們並不像三位一體大腦模型所說的那樣，有一個蜥蜴腦和一個哺乳動物腦。

Emotions are culturally taught to us, and not all cultures feel the same emotions, and some don't even have the concepts of anger or sadness that we have.

情緒是文化教給我們的，並非所有文化都有相同的情緒，有些文化甚至沒有我們所擁有的憤怒或悲傷的概念。

We can't ever know what emotions other people are feeling without them telling us, since we can't read emotions on other people either.

如果別人不告訴我們，我們永遠無法知道別人的情緒，因為我們也無法讀懂別人的情緒。

But if you think that people scowl when they're angry, well, according to the data, we only scowl about 30% of the time that we're angry.

但是，如果你認為人們在生氣時會皺眉頭，那麼，根據數據顯示，我們只有 30% 的時間在生氣時會皺眉頭。

But we also scowl when we're concentrating, or when our tummy's hurt, or when we're trying to follow the plot of a bad TV show, which I can't think of anymore because I barely watch any TV.

但我們也會在集中精力時、肚子疼時，或者在努力追看一部爛電視劇（我已經想不起來了，因為我幾乎不看電視）的情節時皺眉頭。

Emotions instead are a combination of three things.

The first is our interoceptive sense, what it feels like inside our bodies.

首先是我們的內感官，即身體內部的感覺。

這就是為什麼情緒會讓人感覺到什麼。

The second is a situation and the circumstances that we're in.

其次是我們所處的形勢和環境。

And the third is the emotional word that we were taught to associate with these circumstances.

第三個是我們被教導要與這些情況聯繫起來的情感詞彙。

And whenever we feel an emotion, it's our brains making a prediction on what our bodies should feel based on past experiences.

每當我們感受到某種情緒時，我們的大腦就會根據過去的經驗預測身體應該感受到什麼。

And it's giving us different squirts of chemistry, like cortisol, or oxytocin, or glucose, or whatever our brain thinks our bodies need at that moment.

它給我們提供不同的化學物質，比如皮質醇、催產素、葡萄糖，或者大腦認為我們的身體在那一刻需要的任何東西。

When we feel this cocktail in our bodies, we apply emotional concepts that we were taught in the situations that we were in, as we think that they're similar enough to label similarly.

當我們的身體感覺到這種雞尾酒時，我們就會應用我們在當時的情況下所學到的情緒概念，因為我們認為它們足夠相似，可以貼上類似的標籤。

Then we usually get the same behavioral patterns that we're accustomed to.

然後，我們通常會習慣於同樣的行為模式。

Similar trains of thoughts, similar things we say, similar patterns we follow.

我們有相似的想法，說相似的話，遵循相似的模式。

Now, our interoceptive sense is deeply tied into our body budgets.

現在，我們的互感與我們的身體預算緊密相連。

Basically, our brains act like the finance department of a big company, and it allocates resources when needed based on forecasting.

基本上，我們的大腦就像大公司的財務部門，根據預測在需要時分配資源。

We don't react to situations as they happen.

我們不會對發生的情況做出反應。

Our brains will make a prediction, and then it will send us the resources that our bodies need before the situation arises.

我們的大腦會做出預測，然後在情況發生之前向我們發送身體所需的資源。

If you want to buy a car, for example, it's better to have the money ready, as opposed to having to take out a loan and then paying for it later, because you have to pay interest on that as well.

例如，如果你想買車，最好先準備好錢，而不是先貸款，然後再付錢，因為你還得付利息。

Your body doesn't want to pay interest either.

And so your brain is predicting what the body will need beforehand.

是以，你的大腦會提前預測身體需要什麼。

So this body budget that the brain manages needs to be replenished, which makes sense.

是以，大腦管理的身體預算需要補充，這是有道理的。

You need to replenish your financial budget so that you can continue to pay for rent and groceries.

您需要補充財務預算，以便繼續支付房租和日用品費用。

Most of us don't have unlimited funds, so we gotta do the things that replenish our bank accounts.

我們中的大多數人都沒有無限的資金，所以我們必須做那些能補充我們銀行賬戶資金的事情。

We need to replenish the resources that our brains are sending to our bodies.

我們需要補充大腦向身體輸送的資源。

And we do this replenishing, most importantly, through sleep.

最重要的是，我們通過睡眠來進行這種補充。

If we're not sleeping right, our body budgets will be severely depleted.

如果睡眠品質不好，我們的身體預算就會嚴重不足。

And I think that you could agree with this.

Not getting enough sleep feels pretty f*****g brutal.

睡眠不足的感覺非常*****g 殘忍。

And for me personally, I know that when I'm operating on six hours of sleep or less, then

就我個人而言，我知道當我的睡眠時間只有 6 小時或更少時，那麼

I'm a lot more irritable than I usually am.

Now, apart from just sleeping, getting in some rigorous exercise and eating healthily and getting sunlight and connecting with friends and loved ones all also replenish our body budget.

現在，除了睡覺，做一些劇烈運動、健康飲食、晒太陽、與朋友和親人交流也都能補充我們的身體預算。

This is what Lisa Feldman Baird suggests in the book.

這就是麗莎-費爾德曼-貝爾德在書中提出的建議。

這一切對我來說都是有意義的。

And it made sense to the friends of mine that I've explained this to.

我的朋友們聽了我的解釋後都覺得很有道理。

I've talked about this with a lot of people.

So I hope that this makes sense here as well.

是以，我希望這在這裡也能說得通。

Where I went next with this idea of the body budget is when things started to get hairy.

當我提出 "身體預算 "這一想法時，事情開始變得棘手起來。

Not physically hairy, metaphorically, the body didn't get hairy, clearly.

不是身體長毛，而是比喻，顯然身體沒有長毛。

Anyhow, this is where my train of thought went.

With the idea of a body budget, I kept on thinking about how it seems like we're just replenishing our body budgets and we're just getting it back into balance.

有了 "身體預算 "這個概念，我一直在想，我們似乎只是在補充我們的身體預算，我們只是在讓它恢復平衡。

It sounds to me almost like we're living paycheck to paycheck and doing what we can to pay back what we've spent.

在我看來，這幾乎就像是我們在寅吃卯糧，竭盡所能地償還所花的錢。

But that's not a way that I want to live.

So I wondered, can I accrue health like how people accrue wealth?

於是我想，我能像人們積累財富那樣積累健康嗎？

I wondered, what's it like if we live with a body budget surplus?

我想知道，如果我們生活在預算盈餘的情況下，會是什麼樣子？

What's it like if we do all the things that are good for our health?

如果我們做了所有對健康有益的事情，會是什麼樣子呢？

Like if we've worked through all of our childhood traumas through therapy and worked through all of our attachment issues, what's it like being a body budget billionaire?

就像如果我們已經通過治療克服了所有的童年創傷，解決了所有的依戀問題，那麼作為一個身價億萬的億萬富翁又是什麼感覺呢？

Now I didn't see the answer to this in the book.

I'm having a little bit of difficulty understanding the body budget in some ways.

在某些方面，我有點難以理解機構預算。

I know that it's a metaphor and I think I might be pushing the metaphor a bit far.

我知道這是一個比喻，我想我可能把這個比喻推得有點遠了。

I'm wondering what would it look like if a body balance is perfectly balanced, if a body budget is perfectly balanced?

我在想，如果身體平衡是完全平衡的，如果身體預算是完全平衡的，那會是什麼樣子？

Is there a possibility in which it's not just that we're making incremental gains back, but can we operate in a body budget surplus rather than a deficit, so to speak?

是否有一種可能性，不僅僅是我們正在逐步恢復收益，而是我們可以在預算盈餘而不是赤字的情況下運作？

So first, let me just reiterate what I've said before in print and in conversation, which is that all metaphors are wrong.

所以，首先讓我重申一下我之前在報刊上和談話中說過的話，那就是所有的隱喻都是錯誤的。

And when you're trying to communicate a complex scientific idea with a metaphor, you choose the metaphor that's least wrong for your purposes.

當你試圖用隱喻來傳達一個複雜的科學概念時，你會選擇對你的目的來說錯誤最少的隱喻。

Everything about body budgeting is metaphorical.

有關身體預算的一切都是隱喻。

The actual process we're talking about is a process called allostasis.

我們所說的實際過程是一種叫做 "異生 "的過程。

And allostasis is the process by which your brain anticipates the metabolic needs of your body and meets those needs before they arise or just as they arise, but usually attempting to do it beforehand because that's what's most metabolically efficient.

而 "異步平衡 "就是大腦預測身體新陳代謝需求的過程，並在需求出現前或出現時滿足這些需求，但通常會嘗試提前滿足這些需求，因為這是最有效的新陳代謝方式。

And really what you're trying to optimize here is metabolic efficiency.

實際上，你要優化的是代謝效率。

You shouldn't be thinking about a body budget like a bank account that you can fill up or draw down on because literally, that's really not what we're talking about.

你不應該把身體預算想成一個可以充值或提現的銀行賬戶，因為從字面上看，我們說的並不是這個。

More or less, we're talking about maybe like an account where things are constantly flowing in and out all the time.

或多或少，我們說的可能是一個賬戶，裡面的東西一直在進出。

Maybe the best way to explain allostasis, body budgeting is the metaphor for it, is to compare it to homeostasis, which is the concept that people seem more familiar with, which is reactive regulation to a set point.

也許解釋 "同態平衡 "的最佳方式是將其與 "同態 "進行比較。"同態 "是人們似乎更熟悉的概念，即對某一設定點的反應性調節。

So when it gets too cold, you put on a sweater or you turn up the heat or you move around a lot.

所以，當天氣太冷時，你就會穿上毛衣，或者把暖氣開得更大，或者經常走動。

You're trying to keep your body temperature within a specific range because if it gets too low or it gets too high, you die.

你試圖將體溫保持在一個特定的範圍內，因為如果體溫過低或過高，你都會死亡。

Temperature regulation is more like a thermostat, more like homeostasis.

溫度調節更像是恆溫器，更像是穩態。

But the majority of the brain's regulation of the body is not really around a set point per se.

但是，大腦對身體的大部分調節其實並不是圍繞一個設定點本身進行的。

The goal is not to reach a particular level of surplus.

我們的目標不是達到某個特定的盈餘水準。

It's more to optimize the efficiency of spending.

But I think that still some of the metaphor works really well because you can make deposits, you can make withdrawals, you can have savings.

但我認為，有些比喻還是非常有效的，因為你可以存款，可以取款，可以儲蓄。

Like if somebody else is helping you with a task, if somebody else is even present, who you trust and who you like, things will be less expensive, metabolically speaking, and things will be more efficient.

比如，如果有別人幫你完成任務，如果有你信任和喜歡的人在場，從新陳代謝的角度來說，事情的成本會更低，效率會更高。

And if you're stressed in a moment, like for example, when you eat a meal, if you are stressed socially, somebody's around or you read something or you think of something that is going to make metabolism less efficient, it costs you basically the equivalent of 104 calories.

如果你在某一時刻感到壓力，比如在吃飯的時候，如果你在社交場合感到壓力，周圍有人，或者你讀了一些東西，或者你想了一些會降低新陳代謝效率的事情，那麼你基本上會損失相當於104卡路里的熱量。

It's as if you ate 104 calories more than what you actually ate just in loss deficiency.

這就好比你吃的熱量比實際吃的熱量多出 104 卡路里，而這僅僅是損失的不足。

Really allostasis, I think the technical definition is trying to find balance in change, which means that you're always, like if your cells are working and you're alive, you're spending resources, right?

我認為技術上的定義是試圖在變化中找到平衡，也就是說，如果你的細胞在工作，你還活著，你就一直在消耗資源，對嗎？

So your basal metabolic rate, for example, is that's the cost of just keeping your body alive.

例如，你的基礎代謝率就是維持身體生命的成本。

You don't move. You don't learn anything.

你一動不動。你什麼也學不到。

That's just if you're lying still, not going anywhere, not doing anything, not thinking about anything.

這只是如果你靜靜地躺著，哪兒也不去，什麼也不做，什麼也不想。

That's the cost of keeping your body alive.

So the idea here in body budgeting is that you're attempting to keep things very metabolically efficient.

是以，身體預算的理念就是要保持新陳代謝的高效率。

And the best way to do that is to get enough sleep and to eat healthily and so on and so forth.

最好的辦法就是保證充足的睡眠和健康的飲食，諸如此類。

More importantly, the research that exists on what is helpful to your mood, what is harmful to your mood, what behaviors you can engage into that will be helpful to your health or harmful to your health.

更重要的是，現有的研究表明，什麼對你的情緒有幫助，什麼對你的情緒有害，你的哪些行為對你的健康有幫助，哪些對你的健康有害。

That research, I think, is pretty solid and is known pretty well.

我認為，這項研究是非常可靠的，也是眾所周知的。

And we can interpret that research in terms of allostasis.

我們可以從異穩態的角度來解釋這項研究。

But it is useful for people to understand what the behavioral evidence means in the absence of that math.

但是，在沒有數學知識的情況下，讓人們瞭解行為證據的意義是非常有用的。