Name: 與 Duolingo 聯合創始人兼首席執行官路易斯-馮-安（Luis Von Ahn）的高層對話 (View From The Top with Luis Von Ahn, Cofounder and CEO of Duolingo)
Uploaded: 2025-05-09T04:34:08.000Z
Duration: 49 min 40 s

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We're so excited to have you here for the last view from the top.

我們很高興您能來到這裡，欣賞最後的山頂美景。

Some of my executive team is just sitting there.  Well, we're excited to have them all here, too.

我的一些執行團隊成員就坐在那裡。  他們能來，我們也很激動。

We're so excited to have you here for the last view from the top of the year.

我們很高興您能來參加本年度最後一次登頂觀景活動。

And it's a small world, because Duolingo's CFO, who's also here in the audience today, used to sit in my chair as a former view from the top interviewer.

這是個小世界，因為 Duolingo 的首席財務官，也就是今天在座的聽眾，曾經坐在我的椅子上，接受過我的採訪。

Luis, we have a lot that we want to get through.

路易斯，我們還有很多事情要做。

But before we go any further, do you mind providing a verification code for us?

但在我們繼續之前，您是否介意為我們提供一個驗證碼？

Can I tell you that it's really, really annoying when I fail them?

我能告訴你，當我辜負他們時，真的非常非常討厭嗎？

Okay, then we'll let you slip by with this one, and we won't make you do it, just in case.

好吧，那我們就不逼你了，以防萬一。

Luis, it feels like from the start, you were wired to be curious.

路易斯，感覺從一開始，你就被賦予了好奇心。

You taught yourself to code at the age of eight, and by 13, you knew you wanted to be a professor of computer science.

你八歲自學編程，13 歲時就立志成為一名計算機科學教授。

What drew you in so early, and how did your environment shape that?

是什麼吸引你這麼早就加入其中，你所處的環境又是如何影響你的？

Well, I learned how to code because of necessity.

好吧，我是迫不得已才學會編程的。

I was eight years old, and I wanted a Nintendo.

我當時八歲，想要一臺任天堂。

And my mother bought me a computer instead.

And so I had to figure out how to use it.

於是，我不得不想辦法使用它。

At the time, it was a lot, this is like the 80s.

So the computers were a lot harder to use.

And then I, at some point, realized that you could actually get games for the computer.

後來，我意識到，其實電腦上也能玩遊戲。

But those cost money, and my mom wouldn't get me games for it.

但這些都要花錢，我媽媽不會給我買遊戲機。

So then I had to figure out how to make my own very crappy games.

於是，我不得不想辦法自己製作一些非常糟糕的遊戲。

And then, that just made me kind of a computer nerd.

然後，我就成了一個電腦呆子。

And then at some point, for some reason, I decided I wanted to become a professor.

後來，出於某種原因，我決定要成為一名教授。

And yeah, that's what I wanted to do for high school and when I went to college.

是的，這就是我高中和上大學時想做的事。

And then I became a professor, and it turned out I did not like being a professor, but that's what I wanted to be in my life.

後來我當了教授，結果發現我並不喜歡當教授，但這就是我一生的理想。

Well, I wanna touch on that, cuz you're right.

我想談談這個問題，因為你說得對。

You became a professor at Carnegie Mellon, but you tinkered a little bit.

你成為了卡內基梅隆大學的教授，但也做了一些小改動。

When did you realize you didn't just wanna study those problems, you wanna be out there solving them?

你是什麼時候意識到你不僅僅想研究這些問題，還想去解決它們的？

When I was a grad student, I mean, usually you go to get a PhD.

當我還是一名研究所學生時，我的意思是，通常你會去攻讀博士學位。

About half the people who get a PhD in computer science become professors.

獲得計算機科學博士學位的人中，大約有一半會成為教授。

When I was a grad student, I was building things.

當我還是一名研究所學生時，我一直在製造東西。

I got a lot more reward internally from building things than from writing papers.

與撰寫論文相比，我從建造中獲得了更多的內在回報。

And over time, that's when I realized the job of a professor usually is to write papers, and I'm not getting as much reward from that, yeah.

隨著時間的推移，我意識到教授的工作通常就是寫論文，而我並沒有從中得到多少回報。

And part of those early papers that you were studying and your thesis was this whole idea of human computation.

你研究的早期論文和你的畢業論文中，有一部分是關於人類計算的。

And you had this interesting insight that gamification could be a tool for scaling.

你有一個有趣的見解，即遊戲化可以成為擴大規模的工具。

What made you at that time believe that play, not pay, could be an unlock for solving some of these real problems?

當時是什麼讓你相信，遊戲，而不是報酬，可以成為解決一些實際問題的解鎖方式？

Yeah, the idea with that, that was very early.

This is before the word crowdsourcing was invented.

這還是在眾包這個詞被髮明出來之前。

At the time, I saw a talk by somebody, I don't remember who it was, that was talking about how computers were not as good as humans at solving crossword puzzles, this is like the year 2002 or something.

當時，我看到一個人的演講，我不記得是誰了，講的是計算機在解填字遊戲方面不如人類，好像是 2002 年還是什麼時候。

And it was an ongoing research problem to solve crossword puzzles with a computer.

而利用計算機解決填字遊戲是一個正在進行的研究課題。

That's funny, because now they're way better than we are.

這很有趣，因為現在他們比我們強多了。

But at the time, that was the problem that people were trying to solve.

但在當時，這正是人們想要解決的問題。

And I didn't know how to solve that problem.

I mean, that person was significantly smarter than I was.

我的意思是，那個人比我聰明得多。

And in my flight, I just turned around and everybody in the row was solving a crossword puzzle.

在我的班機上，我剛轉過身，一排人都在解填字遊戲。

And I thought to myself, why do we need to get computers to do it when people are just doing it here for free?

我心想，既然大家都在這裡免費做，為什麼還要讓電腦來做呢？

Probably just when people are doing that on planes.

可能只是當人們在飛機上這樣做的時候。

Yeah, so then that's when it occurred to me that maybe there's all kinds of things that computers could not solve that we get people to solve by just turning them into a game.

是的，所以那時我突然想到，也許有很多電腦無法解決的問題，我們可以把它們變成遊戲，讓人們去解決。

Started making games that could get people to solve problems that computers could not solve.

開始製作遊戲，讓人們解決電腦無法解決的問題。

So for example, again, another problem that back then was unsolvable by computers.

舉例來說，還有一個問題在當時是計算機無法解決的。

Giving it an image and asking the computer what's in the image.

給它一個影像，然後問電腦影像裡有什麼。

That was a very difficult problem for computers in 2004.

對於 2004 年的計算機來說，這是一個非常棘手的問題。

But what I did is I made a game that was played by actually millions of people where the game was just, here's how it worked.

但我所做的是，我製作了一款遊戲，實際上有數百萬人在玩，遊戲的玩法就是這樣。

You went to this website and you got randomly paired with another person, just completely random.

你進入這個網站，然後隨機與另一個人配對，完全隨機。

And you knew that you were paired with another person.

你知道你是和另一個人配對的。

And the only thing you knew is that you could both see the same image.

你們唯一知道的是，你們都能看到相同的畫面。

And now you're told type whatever the other person's typing.

現在你被告知，對方打什麼，你就打什麼。

And then when you both type the same word, you got points.

然後，當你們都打出同一個詞時，你們就會得到分數。

It turned out this got played by millions of people.

結果，數百萬人都在玩這個遊戲。

But what was amazing was that the words that people were typing to try to win the game were actually good descriptions of the image.

但令人驚奇的是，人們為了贏得遊戲而輸入的文字，實際上是對圖片的很好描述。

So we used it to collect a lot of descriptions for images that were then used to train computers to do it.

是以，我們用它來收集大量的影像描述，然後用來訓練計算機進行圖像處理。

It's basically tricking people into giving us data.

這基本上是在誘騙人們向我們提供數據。

And what eventually happened with that game that you created?

你創造的那個遊戲最終怎麼樣了？

That game actually got sold to Google and it was then renamed.

實際上，這款遊戲被賣給了谷歌，然後改名了。

I called it the ESP game because it was an extrasensory perception.

我稱它為 ESP 遊戲，因為這是一種超感官知覺。

Then Google bought it and they called it the amazing name of the Google Image Labeler.

後來，谷歌收購了它，並給它起了一個神奇的名字--谷歌影像標籤器。

But yes, it actually helped with all kinds of things with image search.

不過，是的，它實際上對影像搜索的各種事情都有幫助。

Well Luis, this was just one of the various creations you had at that time.

路易斯，這只是你當時的各種創作之一。

And eventually you also had tenure at Carnegie Mellon.

最後，你還在卡內基梅隆大學獲得了終身教職。

You were pretty set, a lot of us would say.

我們中的很多人都會說，你已經準備好了。

So why were you so hungry to build something new with Duolingo?

那麼，您為什麼如此渴望通過 Duolingo 創造新的東西呢？

I really wanted to do something related to education.

我非常想從事與教育有關的工作。

That was, I've always wanted to do something related to education.

那就是，我一直想從事與教育有關的工作。

The other thing is I had a PhD student named Severin who needed a PhD thesis.

還有一件事是，我有一個名叫塞弗林的博士生，他需要一篇博士論文。

And so we started coming up with things that he was going to work on and that we were going to work on together.

於是，我們開始想一些他要做的事情，我們要一起做的事情。

And then we quickly realized a few things.

然後我們很快就意識到了一些事情。

We realized that we both liked education.  Then I told him if we're going to do something related to education, I want it to be accessible to everyone.

我們意識到，我們都喜歡教育。  然後我告訴他，如果我們要做與教育有關的事情，我希望每個人都能接觸到它。

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與 Duolingo 聯合創始人兼首席執行官路易斯-馮-安（Luis Von Ahn）的高層對話 (View From The Top with Luis Von Ahn, Cofounder and CEO of Duolingo)

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