That thread is one vote in a 5-4 ruling written by Chief Justice John Robertson, joined by the Trump-appointed Justice Amy Coney Barrett, along with the three justices appointed by

在由首席大法官約翰-羅伯遜（John Robertson）、特朗普任命的大法官艾米-科尼-巴雷特（Amy Coney Barrett）以及特朗普任命的三位大法官組成的 5-4 票裁決中，這條線是其中的一票。

Democratic presidents.

民主黨總統

The Supreme Court supported an order by a district court judge that forces the Trump administration to pay $2 billion to contractors of the United States Agency for International

最高法院支持地區法院法官的一項命令，該命令要求特朗普政府向美國國際開發署的承包商支付 20 億美元。

Development for work that they have already completed.

為他們已經完成的工作進行開發。

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.

現在加入我們的是來自羅德島州的民主黨參議員謝爾頓-懷特豪斯。

He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senate Finance Committee, and Senate Budget

他是參議院司法委員會、參議院財政委員會和參議院預算委員會的成員。

Committee, and the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.

委員會和參議院環境與公共工程委員會。

Senator, what did we learn today?

參議員，我們今天學到了什麼？

A one-vote majority for preserving the government we thought we had feels rather narrow.

一票的多數票支持保留我們自以為擁有的政府，這讓人感覺相當狹隘。

Yeah, I think it looks even narrower when you understand how obvious this decision was.

是的，我認為當你瞭解到這個決定是多麼顯而易見時，它就顯得更加狹隘了。

There was a contract between the government and these parties.

政府與這些當事人之間簽訂了合同。

There had been performance by the parties of what they had been contracted to do.

雙方都履行了合同規定的義務。

There was no allegation that the contract had been violated, and then the government held back the payment for the contract for the work that was done.

沒有任何關於違反合同的指控，然後政府扣留了已完成工作的合同款項。

That should have been a simple 9-0.

這應該是一個簡單的 9-0

But how does it get to be 5-4?

但怎麼會是 5 比 4 呢？

You get these four dissenters who are violating really basic principles of contract law.

這四位持不同意見者違反了合同法的基本原則。

And I don't want to get too weird and conspiratorial, but when you look at what they're doing is they're opening up the Project 2025 general destruction of government.

我不想說得太詭異和陰謀論 但當你看到他們的所作所為 他們正在開啟 "2025計劃 "對政府的全面破壞

And they're the judges, most of them, who got put onto the court by the court capture scheme by Leonard Leo and his minions.

他們中的大多數法官，都是被倫納德-利奧和他的爪牙們的 "法庭俘虜計劃 "推上法庭的。

Well, the billionaire-funded court capture scheme had as one of its architects a guy named Mark Paoletta, a little sidekick of Leonard Leo's.

這個由億萬富翁資助的法庭抓捕計劃的設計者之一叫馬克-保萊塔，是倫納德-利奧的一個小跟班。

Where is Mark Paoletta right now?

馬克-保萊塔現在在哪裡？

He's over at OMB implementing Project 25 as the council to Russell Vote.

他正在 OMB 實施項目 25，作為羅素投票的理事會。

So this whole thing gets tied in pretty closely to the whole billionaire funding scheme.

是以，整件事與整個億萬富翁資助計劃密切相關。

And clearly for those four justices, their loyalty lies to the billionaire-funded Project 2025 scheme and not to the basic principles that if you perform on a contract, you should get paid the money you are due by the government.

顯然，對於這四位大法官來說，他們忠於的是億萬富翁資助的 "2025 項目 "計劃，而不是 "如果你履行了合同，就應該得到政府應得的報酬 "這一基本原則。

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you very much for clarifying it.

謝爾頓-懷特豪斯參議員，非常感謝你的澄清。

Now I'm even more uncomfortable with the one-vote margin.

現在，一票之差讓我更不舒服了。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Thank you very much for joining us, Senator.

參議員，非常感謝您接受我們的採訪。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Coming up, there are 160,000 federal workers in Maryland who could be impacted by Donald

接下來，馬里蘭州有16萬名聯邦工作人員可能會受到唐納德?

Trump and Elon Musk's dramatic cuts.

特朗普和埃隆-馬斯克的大幅削減。

Maryland Senator Angela Alsobrooks will join us next.

接下來，馬里蘭州參議員安吉拉-阿爾斯布魯克斯（Angela Alsobrooks）將加入我們的節目。

Trump's choice for Deputy Secretary of Labor Keith Sonderling at his Senate confirmation hearing.

特朗普選擇的勞工部副部長基思-桑德林（Keith Sonderling）在參議院確認聽證會上。

Can you commit to abide by all terms and conditions of the department's collective bargaining agreement?

您能否承諾遵守部門集體談判協議的所有條款和條件？

And do you understand the collective bargaining process?

你瞭解集體談判程序嗎？

I am not a traditional labor lawyer.

我不是一名傳統的勞工律師。

But I know we have a lot of experts at the Department of Labor career staff in the solicitor's office that are experts in dealing with federal government unions and collective bargaining.

但我知道，在勞工部的職業律師辦公室裡，有很多專家都是處理聯邦政府工會和集體談判的專家。

Now, sir, you are a labor and employment attorney, and you were a leader at the department for years, correct?

現在，先生，您是一位勞動和就業律師，您在部門擔任上司多年，對嗎？

And you don't know about collective bargaining agreements?

你不知道集體談判協議嗎？

I know about them, but I would trust the experts who have done this their entire career to help guide us.

我瞭解他們，但我相信那些在職業生涯中一直從事這項工作的專家會幫助指導我們。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Joining us now is Senator Angela Alsobrooks of Maryland.

現在加入我們的是來自馬里蘭州的參議員安吉拉-阿爾斯布魯克斯（Angela Alsobrooks）。

Senator, it's such a strange answer because he's saying, I don't know, I'm a Trump appointee,

參議員，這個回答很奇怪，因為他說，我不知道，我是特朗普任命的、

I don't know anything.

我什麼都不知道。

But the career staff at the department, they're going to help me.

但部門裡的職業工作人員會幫助我。

The same people who the Trump administration is trying to fire.

這些人正是特朗普政府試圖解僱的人。

Yeah, well, you know what, I mean, I think that what we know is that he was either unqualified or untruthful or both.

是啊，你知道嗎，我的意思是，我認為我們所知道的是，他要麼不合格，要麼不誠實，要麼兩者兼而有之。

I tend to think that both, but it was outrageous to have a person who's worked already in the

我傾向於認為兩者都有，但讓一個已經在《世界人權宣言》和《公民權利和政治權利國際公約》中工作過的人

Labor Department.

勞工部。

He's been a part of the transition team there for President Trump.

他是特朗普總統過渡團隊的一員。

He's a labor lawyer, for crying out loud, for seven or eight years, and said he knows nothing really about collective bargaining agreements.

他是一名勞工律師，說起來也有七八年了，他說自己對集體談判協議一無所知。

Maybe he'd ask someone else in the building.

也許他會問問樓裡的其他人。

And believe it or not, we received pretty much the same response from Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer, who said that she wasn't sure that collective bargaining agreements were enforceable by law.

信不信由你，我們從 Chavez-DeRemer 女士那裡得到了大致相同的答覆，她說她不確定集體談判協議是否可以依法執行。

So this is just a whole cadre of unqualified individuals, which is what makes it so outrageous.

是以，這只是一大批不合格的人，這才是令人憤慨的地方。

This administration has attacked this huge witch hunt against civil servants, the federal employees who are actually qualified to do their jobs.

這屆政府對公務員--那些真正有資格勝任其工作的聯邦僱員--發起了一場聲勢浩大的 "獵巫運動"。

It's just outrageous.

這太離譜了。

And by the way, what he said was actually the truth of the way a lot of the Senate confirmation process used to work, which is the nominee is there.

順便說一句，他所說的實際上是參議院確認程序的真相，即被提名人就在那裡。

They are qualified to whatever degree.

無論在什麼程度上，他們都是合格的。

But what you always knew is they're going into a department with career staff who do have the answer to everything.

但你一直知道的是，他們將進入一個有職業員工的部門，而這些職業員工確實對所有事情都有答案。

And so if this nominee doesn't know everything, the career staff will help that nominee get through the actual job.

是以，如果被提名人並不瞭解所有情況，職業工作人員會幫助被提名人完成實際工作。

But those, as I said, are exactly the people they're trying to fire.

但正如我所說，這些人正是他們想要解僱的人。

Yeah.

是啊

But you know what?

但你知道嗎？

And it is disqualifying to apply for a job, to leave the Department of Labor, and to not know basics such as collective bargaining agreements.

申請工作、離開勞工部以及不瞭解集體談判協議等基本知識都是不合格的。

But this is what we're facing.

但這就是我們面臨的問題。

You know, we saw the same with RFK Jr., who couldn't tell us the difference between Medicare and Medicaid.

要知道，我們在小肯尼迪身上也看到了同樣的情況，他連醫療保險和醫療補助之間的區別都說不清楚。

These folks are unqualified.

這些人不合格。

Yeah.

是啊

And if you were looking at a government saying, if we are going to get rid of some people, who should we get rid of?

如果你看到一個政府說，如果我們要除掉一些人，我們應該除掉誰？

Well, you'd start with the people who don't know how to do it at all, which is all it's all of the Trump nominees.

好吧，你可以從那些根本不知道怎麼做的人開始，這就是特朗普提名的所有人選。

You wouldn't even have to look at them individually, just every one of them.

你甚至不必逐個查看，只需查看其中的每一個。

Well, the basic qualification for the nominees who have come forward so far have generally been that they would vow loyalty to Donald Trump.

到目前為止，被提名人的基本條件一般都是誓死效忠唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）。

That's the qualification, it appears, that he's looked for, which, again, makes it not only outrageous that he has really accused the true professionals of being unqualified, but also his idea about efficiency, we know, is also not true.

看起來，這就是他所尋找的資格，這再次表明，他指責真正的專業人士沒有資格不僅令人憤慨，而且他關於效率的想法，我們知道，也是不正確的。

When you fill the government with people who are unqualified, and when you are telling the people who actually can do the job that maybe they should go home for eight months and receive pay for it, this is why you know that none of this is to be trusted.

當你讓不合格的人充斥政府，當你告訴那些真正能勝任工作的人，也許他們應該回家待上八個月並領取工資時，這就是為什麼你知道這一切都不可信。

Senator Angela Alsobrooks, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

安吉拉-阿爾斯布魯克斯參議員，非常感謝您今晚參加我們的節目。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And coming up, some of the wisest commentary I heard after Donald Trump's speech last night was from our next guest, Michelle Norris, MSNBC senior contributing editor, who will join us after this break.

接下來，在唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）昨晚的演講後，我聽到了一些最明智的評論，這些評論來自我們的下一位嘉賓，MSNBC 高級特約編輯米歇爾-諾里斯（Michelle Norris），她將在休息後加入我們的節目。

One thing Donald Trump doesn't understand is that some people in this country actually have very positive relationships with the parts of the government they depend on.

唐納德-特朗普不明白的一點是，這個國家的一些人實際上與他們所依賴的政府部門有著非常積極的關係。

And the agriculture department, where Donald Trump is trying to cut jobs, is one of the most popular government departments by the people who actually use it, farmers.

而唐納德-特朗普試圖削減工作崗位的農業部門，是最受實際使用者--農民--歡迎的政府部門之一。

Our new trade policy will also be great for the American farmer.

我們的新貿易政策對美國農民也大有裨益。

I love the farmer.

我愛農夫

Our farmers are going to have a field day right now.

我們的農民現在可有得忙了。

So to our farmers, have a lot of fun.

所以，對我們的農民來說，玩得開心點。

I love you, too.

我也愛你

I love you, too.

我也愛你

Joining us now, MSNBC senior contributing editor, Michelle Norris.

現在加入我們的是MSNBC高級特約編輯米歇爾-諾里斯（Michelle Norris）。

Michelle, one of the groups out there who already know from the first Trump presidency how bad his ideas can be are the farmers, because they are so conversant on how tariffs affect them, how government policy affects them.

米歇爾，從特朗普第一次擔任總統時就知道他的想法有多糟糕的群體之一就是農民，因為他們非常熟悉關稅對他們的影響，以及政府政策對他們的影響。

And I feel like they're the leading edge for many others in the coming year, the rest of this year, autoworkers, others, who are going to discover what farmers already know.

我覺得，在未來的一年裡，在今年餘下的時間裡，他們將成為汽車工人和其他人的領頭羊，他們將發現農民已經知道的東西。

Yeah, a lot of people will see latent effects from some of the things that we see laid out last night, particularly the tariffs.

是的，很多人都會看到我們昨晚提出的一些問題，特別是關稅問題所帶來的潛在影響。

The farmers already understand.

農民們已經明白了。

They got hit by the trade war against China.

他們受到了針對中國的貿易戰的打擊。

They got hit hard.

他們受到重創。

They never fully recovered.

他們從此一蹶不振。

But last night, what you saw was a president who laid out, explained the sweeping changes that he had made, but didn't really give us a cohesive understanding or explanation for why he was doing things.

但昨晚，大家看到的是一位總統闡述、解釋了他所做的大刀闊斧的改革，但並沒有真正讓我們理解或解釋他為什麼要這麼做。

There were litany of things that he said that were not true, that he had inherited a catastrophic economy.

他說了一連串不真實的話，說他繼承了一個災難性的經濟。

That's not true.

事實並非如此。

There are billions of dollars.

有數十億美元。

There are millions and millions of dollars of Social Security fraud.

社會保障欺詐的金額高達數百萬美元。

No receipts to prove that.

沒有收據可以證明。

So it seemed like what he was trying to do was to control the narrative, to show that

是以，他似乎是想控制敘事，表明

America is strong, to show mainly that he is strong.

美國很強大，主要是為了表明他很強大。

And for someone who is so almost obsessed with branding, it's surprising that — and maybe it shouldn't be surprising.

對於一個幾乎痴迷於品牌推廣的人來說，這實在令人吃驚--也許這不應該令人吃驚。

Maybe we should know this.

也許我們應該知道這一點。

But it is sad that he doesn't understand what he has done, what these changes have done to all the things that America has traditionally stood for.

但可悲的是，他不明白自己做了什麼，不明白這些變化對美國傳統上所代表的一切造成了什麼影響。

But he just pretends that that doesn't happen.

但他只是裝作沒這回事。

And then when he gets, basically, orders from the stock market, like he did today, he caves and then tries to present it as, you know, no, Justin Trudeau didn't just win that round.

然後，當他接到股市的指令時，就像今天一樣，他屈服了，然後試圖把它說成，你知道，不，賈斯汀-特魯多並沒有贏得那一輪。

I'm still the tough guy.

我還是那個硬漢。

Well, that's what happens when you move with speed instead of deliberation.

這就是不經過深思熟慮而一味追求速度的後果。

And they're moving very quickly.

他們的行動非常迅速。

I mean, it's six weeks, and it feels like it's been six years, you know, to make all of these changes.

我是說，才六個星期，感覺就像過了六年一樣，你知道，要做出所有這些改變。

And so they — but the overall goal is to — they say is to reduce government.

是以，他們--但總體目標是--他們說是減少政府。

Some would say it is to remake government.

有人會說，這是為了重塑政府。

It feels like they're trying to crush government as we know it, and without really understanding the key elements that we depend on and when we're talking about the things that America has traditionally stood for — reliability, competence.

這感覺就像他們試圖摧毀我們所熟知的政府，而沒有真正理解我們所依賴的關鍵要素，當我們談論美國傳統上所代表的東西時--可靠性、能力。

These are things that our allies look to us for.

這些都是我們的盟友期待我們做的事情。

When you don't think about government in an abstract way, but when you call the Social

當你不抽象地思考政府，而是將社會福利機構稱為 "社會福利機構 "時，你就會發現，政府是一個 "抽象 "的機構。

Security Department, when you want to visit a national park, you expect that things are going to — that the trains are going to run on time.

保全部，當你想去國家公園遊玩時，你會希望一切都會--火車會準時運行。

And they're making indiscriminate cuts that seem to undermine the very things that government stand for.

他們不分青紅皁白地削減開支，似乎破壞了政府所代表的東西。

He's concerned with one thing, and that's power.

他只關心一件事，那就是權力。

Maybe two things — power and strength.

也許有兩樣東西--力量和實力。

And that's a projection as opposed to actually — you know, if we truly were strong, we would be moving in a different way.

這只是一種預測，而不是真正的--你知道，如果我們真的強大，我們就會以不同的方式前進。

If we truly were concerned about projecting strength, we — you don't have to, like, walk in with a chainsaw.

如果我們真的想展示實力，我們--你沒必要拿著電鋸走進來。

You pick up a scalpel.

你拿起手術刀。

I think most people agree that there probably are areas in the government that could use a haircut, you know, that you could pull back a little bit.

我想大多數人都同意，政府的某些領域可能需要削減開支，你知道，你可以縮減一點。

But you don't walk around with a chainsaw and just — those are raggedy cuts.

但你不能拿著電鋸到處亂走，這些都是粗糙的切口。

Raggedy is not a word that you want associated, you know, with government.

要知道，"破爛 "可不是一個你希望與政府聯繫在一起的詞。

Most people in business would not conduct themselves in this manner.

大多數做生意的人都不會以這種方式行事。

And yet, someone who's known — you know, that's how he entered the world stage as someone who is a businessman, has taken a rather strange approach to conducting business when he's making decisions about people's livelihoods, about the direction of the country, about the people that we align ourselves with on the world stage.

然而，一個眾所周知的人--你知道，他就是這樣以商人的身份登上世界舞臺的--卻在決定人們的生計、國家的方向以及我們在世界舞臺上與哪些人結盟時，採取了一種相當奇怪的經商方式。

And I think one indication of how wobbly this all is, is generally — and you know this,

我認為，這一切有多搖擺不定的一個跡象是，一般來說--你也知道這一點、

Lawrence.

勞倫斯

When people deliver — when presidents deliver a State of the Union address, there's usually a rollout afterwards, where they go out and they travel the country and they talk about their initiatives.

當人們發表國情諮文時--當總統發表國情諮文時，通常會在諮文之後進行推廣，他們會走出去，在全國各地巡迴演講，並談論他們的倡議。

And they didn't do that because they don't think that they could probably walk into that space.

他們沒有這樣做，因為他們認為自己不可能走進那個空間。

Yeah.

是啊

Michelle Norris, please come by whenever you possibly can.

米歇爾-諾里斯，只要有可能，請隨時過來。

The seat's always here for you.

座位永遠為您服務。

Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

非常感謝您今晚參加我們的節目。

We'll be right back.

我們馬上回來

Trump backed down today.

特朗普今天退縮了。

It doesn't happen every day.

這種情況並不是每天都有。

But because Donald Trump is actually, by far, the most cowardly president we have ever had, who's pretending to be a tough guy, he has backed down in his first presidency, and now in this one, more than any other president has done it.

但由於唐納德-特朗普實際上是迄今為止我們所經歷過的最懦弱的總統，他假裝自己是個硬漢，在他的第一任總統任期內就已經退縮了，現在在這一任總統任期內，他比任何其他總統都要退縮。

He backs down within a day of making decisions, pulls them back.

他在做出決定後不到一天就打退堂鼓，將決定推倒重來。

Donald Trump backed down today, and no one was surprised.

唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）今天退縮了，沒有人對此感到意外。

There are people who have to make their living based on knowing when Donald Trump is going to back down.

有些人不得不靠了解唐納德-特朗普何時退縮來謀生。

They include the richest people in America and their day-to-day investment practitioners on Wall Street.

其中包括美國最富有的人和他們在華爾街的日常投資從業者。

Wall Street knows that Donald Trump is a pathological liar, which everyone knows.

華爾街知道唐納德-特朗普是個病態的金光黨，這一點人盡皆知。

And Wall Street knows that Donald Trump doesn't understand anything about economics.

華爾街知道，唐納德-特朗普根本不懂經濟。

Nothing.

什麼都沒有

Wall Street has been listening to Donald Trump very carefully for years, and they've never once heard Donald Trump accurately describe what a tariff is.

多年來，華爾街一直在認真聆聽唐納德-特朗普的講話，他們從未聽唐納德-特朗普準確地描述過關稅是什麼。

The truth of tariffs forced Donald Trump to back down today.

關稅的真相迫使唐納德-特朗普今天讓步。

Wall Street knows that Donald Trump lies every time he talks about tariffs.

華爾街知道，唐納德-特朗普每次談及關稅時都在撒謊。

Everyone on Wall Street knows that no foreign country has ever paid an American tariff and never will.

華爾街的每個人都知道，從來沒有一個外國支付過美國的關稅，也永遠不會支付。

And Wall Street knows the only people who pay Trump tariffs are people in the United

華爾街知道，只有美國人才會為特朗普的關稅買單。

States who pay for imported goods, like, say, coffee.

支付進口商品（如咖啡）費用的國家。

Unless you're one of the lucky ones who has tasted the very small batch and very expensive coffee grown in Hawaii, not one drop of coffee you have swallowed in your life came from an American coffee bean.

除非你是幸運兒之一，品嚐過在夏威夷種植的非常小批量和非常昂貴的咖啡，否則你一生中喝過的咖啡沒有一滴是來自美國的咖啡豆。

Every ounce of coffee you have swallowed came from another country.

你喝下的每一盎司咖啡都來自另一個國家。

According to Donald Trump, the United States of America should be buying nothing from other countries.

唐納德-特朗普認為，美國不應該從其他國家購買任何東西。

Tell that to the 211,000 people working in Starbucks just in the United States and the 361,000 people working in Starbucks worldwide.

僅在美國，星巴克就有 211 000 名員工，在全球星巴克工作的員工有 361 000 人。

The coffee economy in the United States employs literally millions of people, all based on a product imported from other countries, imported from Africa, imported from South

美國的咖啡經濟僱傭了數百萬人，而這一切都依賴於從其他國家進口的產品，從非洲進口的產品，從南方進口的產品。

America.

美國。

And this country could not survive a day without coffee, and we all know it.

沒有咖啡，這個國家一天也活不下去，我們都知道這一點。

I could go on and on listing examples of why international trade is a good and necessary thing.

我可以不停地舉例說明為什麼國際貿易是一件好事和必要的事情。

That is a fact that has been known since before the American colonies were settled, but Donald

這一事實早在美國殖民地定居之前就已為人所知，但唐納德

Trump doesn't know it.

特朗普並不知道這一點。

And so Wall Street knows that their job is to teach their slowest student, Donald Trump, whenever he goes dangerously too far on his illegal Trump tariff crusade.

是以，華爾街知道，每當唐納德-特朗普在其非法的特朗普關稅征戰中走得太遠，他們的工作就是教導他們最遲鈍的學生。

And the Trump tariffs are illegal because the Constitution puts Congress exclusively in charge of tariffs, just as Congress is exclusively in charge of income tax rates.