Thank you for being here.

感謝您的光臨。

I want to ask, what do you see as the most important issue for the U.S. to raise during these talks with Russia in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday?

我想問一下，您認為週二在沙特阿拉伯與俄羅斯會談期間，美國要提出的最重要問題是什麼？

Well, ultimately, I think the most important thing overall is long-term security.

歸根結底，我認為最重要的是長期安全。

I mean, they eventually will probably come up with some sort of immediate ceasefire or whatever you want to call it.

我的意思是，他們最終可能會達成某種立即停火協議，或者隨便你怎麼稱呼它。

But nobody really believes that the ceasefire is going to last until you know where you're going after the ceasefire, or at least during the ceasefire.

但沒有人真正相信停火會持續下去，除非你知道停火後或至少在停火期間你將去哪裡。

Because the question is really, would Russia be able to come back after some type of period and perhaps attack Ukraine again?

因為問題在於，俄羅斯是否能夠在一段時間後捲土重來，再次進攻烏克蘭？

Or as some of the countries in the region believe or fear, that they might actually try to invade or move into another country in the region.

或者，正如該地區的一些國家所認為或擔心的那樣，他們可能真的會試圖入侵或進入該地區的另一個國家。

Now, the Russians say we have no intention, but still, this really is a question.

現在，俄羅斯人說我們無意，但這仍然是一個問題。

You know, short-term, and obviously, Paula, right now, there's a lot of short-term going on.

你知道，短期的，很明顯，寶拉，現在有很多短期的事情要做。

I mean, the pace of this is very quick.

我的意思是，這個節奏非常快。

There aren't a lot of details, but the details have to be clear if you're going to have long-term security.

細節並不多，但要想獲得長期安全，細節必須明確。

What do you make of the fact that Ukraine will not be present at these talks in Saudi Arabia, but instead will be part of dual negotiations in Kyiv?

烏克蘭將不參加在沙特阿拉伯舉行的會談，而是參加在基輔舉行的雙重談判，您對此有何看法？

I think if you talk to President Zelensky, probably off the record, he would be very concerned.

我想，如果你與澤倫斯基總統交談，也許可以不記錄在案，他會非常擔心的。

I think the Ukrainians, there's no question, feel that they are being at least put in second place at this point, because a lot of the immediate dialogue is between the United States and Russia, and specifically between Putin and Trump.

我認為，毫無疑問，烏克蘭人覺得他們現在至少被放在了第二位，因為眼下很多對話都是在美國和俄羅斯之間進行的，特別是普京和特朗普之間。

And Zelensky is feeling that he is somehow, you know, the second thought in the administration, not the first.

澤倫斯基覺得，他在某種程度上，你知道，是政府的第二思想，而不是第一思想。

So, that is a problem, but he does not have, at this point, a really strong negotiating position.

是以，這是一個問題，但目前他還沒有一個真正強有力的談判立場。

You know, the war has been going very poorly at this point, or at least it's kind of in a situation of stasis.

你知道，戰爭目前進展得很不順利，至少是處於停滯不前的狀態。

And so, you know, what does he do?

那麼，你知道，他是怎麼做的嗎？

He has to make the best of a bad situation, and he was counting originally on the United States to really, you know, stand by them.

他必須在糟糕的情況下做出最好的選擇，而他最初指望的是美國真正站在他們一邊。

Now, the administration, there are a lot of, you know, as you can see, I'm saying now, but, because there are a lot of sides to this, but the administration would say, no, no, they will be part of this, don't worry.

現在，政府有很多，你知道，正如你所看到的，我現在說的是，但是，因為這件事有很多方面，但政府會說，不，不，他們會參與其中，別擔心。

But I think the Ukrainians are worried.

但我認為烏克蘭人很擔心。

When do they come into the negotiations?

他們什麼時候參加談判？

When everything's already on the table and they don't get a way to define where everything's going?

當一切都已經擺在桌面上，他們卻沒有辦法確定一切的去向？

Well, Trump's special envoy to Russia and Ukraine says there will need to be concessions from Russia.

特朗普的俄羅斯和烏克蘭問題特使表示，俄羅斯必須做出讓步。

What do you think that could look like?

你認為這會是什麼樣子？

I am not quite sure what that would be.

我不太確定那會是什麼。

At this point, it appears in public statements, at least initially by the administration, and especially administration officials, Secretary Hegseth, the defense secretaries especially, that Russia is going to get a promise of no NATO membership for Ukraine.

在這一點上，從公開聲明中可以看出，至少最初是由政府，特別是政府官員，尤其是國務卿黑格塞斯和國防部長們做出的，俄羅斯將得到烏克蘭不加入北約的承諾。

It will probably also get territorial concessions, meaning the territory that it has taken from Ukraine will remain under Russian control.

俄羅斯可能還會獲得領土讓步，這意味著俄羅斯從烏克蘭奪取的領土將繼續由俄羅斯控制。

They are looking at economic sanctions, you just mentioned that, that it would be huge for Russia to get a lot of those economic sanctions rolled back.

他們正在研究經濟制裁，你剛才也提到了這一點，如果能取消很多經濟制裁，對俄羅斯來說意義重大。

But so far, I truly don't see a lot that Russia is being asked to give at this point.

但到目前為止，我確實沒有看到俄羅斯在這一點上被要求付出多少。

That said, there aren't a lot of specific, concrete details of what we're talking about.

儘管如此，我們談論的具體細節並不多。

There's a lot of talk, we've got to end it and end it quickly, but exactly how is still a big question.

很多人都在說，我們必須儘快結束它，但具體如何結束還是個大問題。

European leaders will be holding an emergency summit tomorrow in response to the U.S. leaving them out from these peace talks.

歐洲領導人將於明天召開緊急峰會，對美國將他們排除在和談之外做出迴應。

How do you think the Kremlin views this push from Europe to unify without the support of the U.S.?

您認為克里姆林宮如何看待歐洲在沒有美國支持的情況下推動統一？

Oh, well, I mean, if you look at the Russian media, they're very happy about this because they feel that the Europeans are panicking, that the Europeans aren't quite sure.

哦，好吧，我的意思是，如果你看看俄羅斯媒體，他們對此非常高興，因為他們覺得歐洲人正在恐慌，歐洲人還不太確定。

They feel that they, too, are being, let's say, left out of the initial negotiations or discussions, which they are.

比方說，他們覺得自己也被排除在最初的談判或討論之外，而他們確實被排除在外了。

And they also feel that they are the people who will be called upon, the Europeans, to carry out some type of ceasefire.

他們還認為，歐洲人將要求他們實現某種停火。

So they are worried as well.

所以他們也很擔心。

And if Europe is worried, and they are concerned about the United States, and they're trying to get their act together and be unified, that is exactly where Vladimir Putin wants them.

如果歐洲憂心忡忡，擔心美國，試圖振作起來，團結一致，這正是弗拉基米爾-普京所希望的。

He wants them divided, confused, and worried.

他希望他們分裂、困惑和擔憂。

And so right now, I think Putin probably feels very good about this.

所以現在，我認為普京可能對此感覺很好。

You can just hear in Fred's report, the quote from the Kremlin, they're pretty happy about all this.

你可以從弗雷德的報道中聽到克里姆林宮的說法，他們對這一切感到非常高興。

Before I let you go, today marks one year since the death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny.

在我離開之前，今天是俄羅斯反對派領袖阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼逝世一週年。

His family gathered at his grave earlier today.

今天早些時候，他的家人聚集在他的墓前。

I want to play a clip of one of the last interviews he gave for the CNN film documentary, Navalny.

我想播放一段他最後一次接受 CNN 電影紀錄片《納瓦爾尼》採訪的片段。

My message for the situation when I am killed is very simple, not give up.

在我被殺的情況下，我要傳達的資訊非常簡單，那就是不要放棄。

Do me a favor, answer this one in Russian.

幫我個忙，用俄語回答這個問題。

What is the state of opposition in Russia right now, Jill?

吉爾，現在俄羅斯反對派的狀況如何？

Well, they are completely excluded from any type of public participation in Russia at this point.

目前，他們在俄羅斯完全被排除在任何類型的公眾參與之外。

Nobody can go on the streets to protest, although there were lines for the grave of Alexei Navalny in Moscow today.

雖然今天莫斯科的阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼墓地前排起了長隊，但沒有人可以上街抗議。

And that, I think, is significant.

我認為這一點意義重大。

But the problem with the opposition right now is they don't really have a leader who is as strong and charismatic as Navalny was.

但反對黨現在的問題是，他們沒有一個像納瓦爾尼那樣強勢、有魅力的領導人。

And he is gone, his wife valiantly speaks around the world, but she's not Navalny.

他走了，他的妻子英勇地在世界各地演講，但她不是納瓦爾尼。

And so I think at this point, the opposition would really like to have somebody with that sheer political force and public influence that he had.

是以，我認為在這一點上，反對派非常希望有人能像他那樣擁有純粹的政治力量和公眾影響力。

But there really is no one at this point.

但目前確實沒有人。

So it's a, I would say, a sad day on many levels for the opposition.

是以，我可以說，這是反對派在許多方面都感到悲哀的一天。

Jill, thank you so much for joining us.

吉爾，非常感謝你參加我們的節目。